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Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.02 10:40:57 -
[1] - Quote
DISCLAIMERS:
NB! At first this post is to measure the interest among traders. If there is no SIGNIFICANT interest then tere will be no point for this project!
This is just PROPOSED structure for this project and will be subject to change once board for Consortium of Traders - CoT is formed!
If Consortium of Traders - CoT muster up budget, we get Trustee like Chribba or similar to hold ISK for it and if CoT (Consortium of Traders) gets it working, Trustee will be responsible of setting taxes, I will just be a line member of CoT with some investment of my own and I help to get people together.
PROBLEM:
* CCP will drive tax and broker fee (broker fee from 0.2% to 3.5% with perfect skills/standings - 1 750% raise !!! ) SKY HIGH in NPC stations to FORCE people start trading in citadels. Dev blog post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6384247#post6384247
* I think player run citadels cant change or collect tax part, but it can change and collect Broker fee part, although CCP devs sometimes mixes up these terms in dev blogs, like saying tax when meant broker fee.
* Large alliances WILL BE interested running these Citadels on their own creating HUGE personal ISK faucet for them and leaving all traders on their mercy with broker fee changes. According to dev blogs, they can at ANY MOMENT change taxes(ccp must meant broker fees?) for ANY INDIVIDUAL trader they dont like! Source: New Access Control: http://updates.eveonline.com/date/2016-04-27/
* There will be big motivation for large alliances/coalitions like Goons or PL to take down trader run citadels to replace with their own for FAT TAX income. Current tax+broker fee ISK sink of 5 biggest trade hubs is approximately 10T per month.
* CCP might reconsider and leave Tax/Broker fees untouched in current big trade hubs, in that case this project will not go alive and Trustee will return Investment ISK to investors.
GOALS:
* Consortium of Traders - CoT will be formed to build, defend and run trade Citadels replacing trading stations of Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Rens and Hek. Cot might decide to start with just one of these and expand later.
* Trader run Citadels will have HUGE trust advantage over ANY kind of other Citadel arrangement
* Trader run Citadels will have tax/broker fees that cover ONLY Defense Budget + tiny bit for other expenses, but as minimal as possible
* CoT will need big support from all mercenarie groups which should be paid from initial investment budget and later from tax/broker fee income budget
* CoT also nees to recruit EVERY OTHER significant EVE force to help with defense, who have interest of Goons or PL NOT GETTING huge personal alliance ISK faucet in the form of trade hub citadels that pays them potentially 10 - 30 Trillions per month AND make them pretty much unbeatable force in EVE!
ROADMAP:
1. Choose your role and vote for starting the Consortium of Traders here!
Investors: Invest ISK in Cot (Consortium of Traders) project and be willing to lose that investment if coming wars against trader citadels will be too much to handle. Investors are also board members of consortium with the right to vote for all significant descisions. That board will vote if at all or what kind of interest will be paid on initial investments if trader citadels goes stable and can start paying back investments.
Organizers: Help out with public relations and advertisement to recruit as much traders, mercenaries, alliances as possible to support the defense. Help out to organize SRP programs with fleets of fitted hulls for defense.
Supporters: Supporters will move their trading from current trade hubs to CoT citadels, also ask and help their friends to do the same. And fleet up for defense fleets if possible.
2. Form a board of Consortium of Traders and organize structure of operations.
3. Prepare and run BIGGEST public relations / advertisement / awareness campaign in EVE history to hire as much supporters, traders, mercenaries and allies as we possible can! If CoT dont get significant outside support, board will scrap that project and not take it to execution phase as CoT would not be able to defend its investment!
4. Collect investments to Trustee. CoT will need approximatel 1000 - 5000 Billions as initial investment to cover building of Citadel(s), hiring Mercenaries up front, SRP and rebuild Citadel(s) a few times in case of some initial defense strategy failures! Precise budget will be subject to discussion and calculations by board of CoT. If CoT will only get funds to build 1-2 citadels and hire 1-2 mercenaries a couple of times, then board will scrap the project and Trustee will return investments as CoT will have no serious chance to defend its investment in the long run!
Continues... |
Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.02 10:41:38 -
[2] - Quote
5. Form a structure of operations to avoid/minimize capital thefts, hire and set trusted people as SRP builders, fleet commanders
6. Analyze and discuss if we can form an efficient structure to Flash Advertise defense timer events to hire fleets of random players/supporters for motivational ISK rewards and free ships to form prompt defense fleets. We would need greate awareness/advertisiement system, great unabusable reward system, trusted fleet commanders, trusted overseers for detecting abuse, trusted bankers to pay out rewards.
This has the potential to turn into new player generated content on its own if CoT can develope useable structure for it. Or atleast if would generate awareness.
7. Board will decide if available outside support and budget is enough to make project viable - Project will be scrapped and investments returned by Trustee or - Project goes live
8. Deploy initial set of Citadels or Citadel
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now Please vote if you can support Consortium of Traders as:
- Investor - Organizer - Supporter
Or
- noone will care, scrap that moronic idea |
Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2016.04.02 10:42:26 -
[3] - Quote
I will join as
Investor Organizer
Potential investment 20B |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
11561
|
Posted - 2016.04.02 10:50:18 -
[4] - Quote
Quote:Potential investment 20B
Happy make coincidence!
I want pledge 20bn
Got a HoleySheet1 corpse? I'll buy it for 200m!
Bumble's Space Log
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Fin Udan
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2016.04.02 11:13:03 -
[5] - Quote
Isofar as the investment required to build Citadels with markets is huge I foresee Citadel owners competing with each other to attract traders.
If Citadel owners offer brokerage fees significantly less than 3.5% it will be up to individual traders to analyse the pro/cons of setting up in a citadel.
I personally am looking forward to the advent of Citadels with great excitement and interest. |
Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
8
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Posted - 2016.04.03 11:42:13 -
[6] - Quote
Willing to support the initiative, if the plan seem sound enough when it is presented in its complete form.
I am fairly poor, so I can offer 1 bl as investor.
And supporter, obviously. |
Mindy Lelievre
Vitaluna
3
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Posted - 2016.04.03 12:51:18 -
[7] - Quote
This initiative sounds great and all but it is based on a faulty assumption: that trade hubs are developed top-down when historically, marketplaces have always emerged from the bottom up. The masses will decide where the market will be centralized. The only thing traders can hope for is to be accurate in following them.
I don't think the center of trade will shift from Jita, even with the tax increase because what business and customers value, above all, is stability. Jita prices is evidence that people are willing to pay a little extra for the certainty that what they need is always available at Jita even if they can purchase it elsewhere at lower prices, but doing so is unpredictable and time consuming. The fact that citadels are subject to destruction is a huge obstacle that I don't think will be overcome by a few percentage points of savings. |
Shayla Etherodyne
United Nations Industrial Holdings
8
|
Posted - 2016.04.03 19:49:16 -
[8] - Quote
Mindy Lelievre wrote:This initiative sounds great and all but it is based on a faulty assumption: that trade hubs are developed top-down when historically, marketplaces have always emerged from the bottom up. The masses will decide where the market will be centralized. The only thing traders can hope for is to be accurate in following them.
I don't think the center of trade will shift from Jita, even with the tax increase because what business and customers value, above all, is stability. Jita prices is evidence that people are willing to pay a little extra for the certainty that what they need is always available at Jita even if they can purchase it elsewhere at lower prices, but doing so is unpredictable and time consuming. The fact that citadels are subject to destruction is a huge obstacle that I don't think will be overcome by a few percentage points of savings.
It will depend from a lot of factors: - how much CCP will push for the change - what fees will be required by the citadel owners - the results of the first wars to conquer/destroy the citadels
We will see, but if we wait for the new trend to be clear probably we will have to follow it, accepting what has already been decided. This initiative instead can put a group of traders in the lead.
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Zee Sebiestor
OurEVE.com
4
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Posted - 2016.04.04 01:19:05 -
[9] - Quote
http://www.oureve.com/ Has been set up as a place for people to talk about Citadel Coalitions. You are all welcome to come and find others in your region who wish to form Coalitions. |
Hauler Vespori
Friendship Rainbows and Unicorns Import Export
0
|
Posted - 2016.04.05 12:59:48 -
[10] - Quote
I am interested to join as Organizer and Maybe Investor with 1-2b.
I would also be willing to FC subcaps if needed.
I think this is a good idea with some potential
Mindy Lelievre wrote:This initiative sounds great and all but it is based on a faulty assumption: that trade hubs are developed top-down when historically, marketplaces have always emerged from the bottom up. The masses will decide where the market will be centralized. The only thing traders can hope for is to be accurate in following them.
I don't think the center of trade will shift from Jita, even with the tax increase because what business and customers value, above all, is stability. Jita prices is evidence that people are willing to pay a little extra for the certainty that what they need is always available at Jita even if they can purchase it elsewhere at lower prices, but doing so is unpredictable and time consuming. The fact that citadels are subject to destruction is a huge obstacle that I don't think will be overcome by a few percentage points of savings.
This is correct. However, lots of things will turn unprofitable if CCP so pleases, and what traders value above everything is profit. The masses will have to decide where to go next if the markets in jita dry up due to lack of profits. |
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Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 08:37:13 -
[11] - Quote
Thank you all of you for your input !
My main reason for starting this thread was to gauge interest and so far we can see that interest is very low, which defeats the purpose! Basically, traders dont care at the moment, which might change after the tax/broker fee increase is implemented, so I will leave this thread up here for that.
It is likely that CCP will introduce this increase at 27th of April with first Citadels, but CCP might also postpone the increase a little while. So lets see how it goes. But first Citadels dont have working contracts in them, so that defeats the purpose of trade hub, until CCP implements contracts in Citadels. |
Rhivre
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
875
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 10:19:38 -
[12] - Quote
Hauler Vespori wrote:I am interested to join as Organizer and Maybe Investor with 1-2b. I would also be willing to FC subcaps if needed. I think this is a good idea with some potential Mindy Lelievre wrote:This initiative sounds great and all but it is based on a faulty assumption: that trade hubs are developed top-down when historically, marketplaces have always emerged from the bottom up. The masses will decide where the market will be centralized. The only thing traders can hope for is to be accurate in following them.
I don't think the center of trade will shift from Jita, even with the tax increase because what business and customers value, above all, is stability. Jita prices is evidence that people are willing to pay a little extra for the certainty that what they need is always available at Jita even if they can purchase it elsewhere at lower prices, but doing so is unpredictable and time consuming. The fact that citadels are subject to destruction is a huge obstacle that I don't think will be overcome by a few percentage points of savings. This is correct. However, lots of things will turn unprofitable if CCP so pleases, and what traders value above everything is profit. The masses will have to decide where to go next if the markets in jita dry up due to lack of profits.
CCP arent expecting a mass migration from trade hubs, or NPC stations in general, and any lack of profits will be due to people who dont move their margins.
Fluffy Bunny Pic!
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erg cz
Eleutherian Guard Villore Accords
422
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 10:43:10 -
[13] - Quote
Citadel trade hubs are for soverenity null. I seriosly doubt that 3,5% brocker fee can be claimed as "SKY HIGH" change of the market. Yes, it will have some impact, but absolute majority of high sec traders will prefer safety, predictablity and stability of NPC stations, IMHO. It is high sec, remember? Ppl are there because they do not want to risk.
Absolutely free trial extension. Just click the link and get your extra week of Eve for free!
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Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 14:17:51 -
[14] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:CCP arent expecting a mass migration from trade hubs, or NPC stations in general, and any lack of profits will be due to people who dont move their margins.
erg cz wrote:I seriosly doubt that 3,5% brocker fee can be claimed as "SKY HIGH" change of the market. Yes, it will have some impact
I SERIOUSLY disagree here!
Simple math: if people will continue trading in exact same amounts in NPC stations after tax/broker fee increase, it will suck out 60 Trillions ISK per month as this ISK leaves game, it does not change hands inside game. This will suck EVE out of active ISK in a few months! CCP doest that exactly to FORCE traders out of NPC stations!
If you are bad at math, I give you an example: All PLEX traded in 1 month is about 90T, that ISK just changes owners, it is not new ISK inside game.
New ISK inside game (ISK faucet) is ratting - 1 month all combined ratting income is 35T per month.
A lot of trading, like flipping or moving items between trade hubs will cease, most traders remaining are producers selling their production items.
I guess best near future business plan is to start moving broke traders to null sec to start ratting (to increase ISK faucets) in areas freed by war from goon sov... |
Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2016.04.06 14:19:44 -
[15] - Quote
Rhivre wrote:CCP arent expecting a mass migration from trade hubs, or NPC stations in general, and any lack of profits will be due to people who dont move their margins.
erg cz wrote:I seriosly doubt that 3,5% brocker fee can be claimed as "SKY HIGH" change of the market. Yes, it will have some impact
I SERIOUSLY disagree here!
Simple math: if people will continue trading in exact same amounts in NPC stations after tax/broker fee increase, it will suck out 60 Trillions ISK per month as this ISK leaves game, it does not change hands inside game. This will suck EVE out of active ISK in a few months! CCP doest that exactly to FORCE traders out of NPC stations!
If you are bad at math, I give you an example: All PLEX traded in 1 month is about 90T, which includes PLEX flipping, so people buying PLEX for real money is certainly lower than tha. And that ISK just changes owners, it is not new ISK inside game.
New ISK inside game (ISK faucet) is ratting - all combined ratting income is 35T per month.
A lot of trading, like flipping or moving items between trade hubs will cease, most traders remaining are producers selling their production items.
I guess best near future business plan is to start moving broke traders to null sec to start ratting (to increase ISK faucets) in areas freed from goon sov by war... |
Tempus Halley
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2016.04.07 02:44:46 -
[16] - Quote
I would be in as an investor (5 billion) and a member of the guard fleet.
I recommend only doing 1 XL Market Citadel in the Jita area to begin with. This allows a beta test to see if it has any chance of success. My suggestion would be Perimeter with its 1.0 Security and 1 Jump closer to Dodixie and Amarr. This proximity is also important for moving goods to and fro.
I would recommend a portion of the broker to be payed to the initial investors (minimum 1 billion invested). This would encourage buy-in by most merchants on the off chance that the citadel market is a big hit. The fact they get a cut of the broker would encourage them to move their trading to the citadel. This might be the push necessary to get market citadel to critical mass.
Ultimately, if the items for sale in a Citadel are not visible from the normal Regional Market and you can not place regional buy orders in a Citadel, it will be a very steep slope to get people to come and buy/sell at them.
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Kaiden Hekki
Hekki Capital
0
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Posted - 2016.04.13 03:13:49 -
[17] - Quote
Mindy Lelievre wrote:This initiative sounds great and all but it is based on a faulty assumption: that trade hubs are developed top-down when historically, marketplaces have always emerged from the bottom up. The masses will decide where the market will be centralized. The only thing traders can hope for is to be accurate in following them.
I don't think the center of trade will shift from Jita, even with the tax increase because what business and customers value, above all, is stability. Jita prices is evidence that people are willing to pay a little extra for the certainty that what they need is always available at Jita even if they can purchase it elsewhere at lower prices, but doing so is unpredictable and time consuming. The fact that citadels are subject to destruction is a huge obstacle that I don't think will be overcome by a few percentage points of savings.
I agree with your first statement here. However, isn't the market made up of the people who place the buy and sell orders? If the majority of the core market (tier one goods: minerals, gases, etc) - which will be the most effected by brokers fee increase - moves the rest will move with it. |
Henry Noir
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2016.04.24 07:38:14 -
[18] - Quote
So CCP decided to use "boiling the frog" approach with tax/broker fee changes, which makes it even harder to get cooperation of traders working:
https://i.imgur.com/MvLgHnd.png |
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