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Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.15 20:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Phelan Lore on 15/02/2007 20:50:04 Originally by: Tuxford Why don't we like people going really really fast One of the biggest reasons is the "feel" of the game. Combat in EVE was always supposed to be more about tactics and strategy rather than twitch movement. I know a lot of the community enjoy that style of gameplay but it just isn't EVE. So controling the range of the fight and maneuvering to stay out of web range of multiple targets isn't tactics? I think what your saying is EvE is about fitting your ship and pressing F1 through F8, anything more complicated leaves out the "slower" (read dumber) members of EvE. Originally by: Tuxford Another reason has to do with game mechanic and can be summed up to pretty much the same arguement as when warp core stabilizers where balanced. When going into a fight we want people to commit to a fight. That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off. Ok, so you "commit to a fight"... the problem is that you commit to a fight of reasonable odds, but while you are engaging that target or shortly after it dies 20 of his friends come in. It's not just about warping into the fight and being able to leave when you want, it's about avoiding the blob. In the current blobbing climate of EvE it's virtually impossible to move around and kill stuff solo or in small gangs without fitting for speed. If you nerf speed fittings you force people to combat blobs with blobs of their own. You also need to factor in dictors. These things are so common now that you litterally can't move anywhere without passing through multiple bubble camps. Nerfing speed encourages blobbing and camping. Originally by: Tuxford The biggest factor in the velocity is the microwarpdrive. Looking at microwarpdrive stats it shouldn't come as a big surprise that these modules aren't supposed to be sustainable, they have high cap need and give penalties to capacitor. However they can be, so when in doubt nerf the microwarpdrive! Well not really but we have discussed number of modification of it. For the most part MWDs are not sustainable. Frigates and BC sized ships can sustain them pretty easilly, but cruisers and BS require a lot of work to make them sustainable sacrificing other aspects of the ship. Most ships aren't very useful while sustaining a MWD either. The ships that are useful are using NOS, drones, or missiles, ie. crow, curse, phoon, domi... Maybe you should take a closer look at these factors instead of nerfing every ship that fits a MWD. I can't even run a named MWD on my stabber for very long as it stand right now. If you made the MWD take more cap I don't think I'd be able to use a stabber effectively at all. - Sig removed as it is inappropriate. Please email us with a copy of your sig if you wish to know why. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Lowanaera Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.02.15 20:47:00 - [2] Edited by: Lowanaera on 15/02/2007 20:44:12 There's already a 3 page topic in the appropriate forum for this.
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.15 20:49:00 - [3] Originally by: Lowanaera Edited by: Lowanaera on 15/02/2007 20:44:12 There's already a 3 page topic in the appropriate forum for this. Since when was ships and modules the wrong place for talking about... ships and modules? - Sig removed as it is inappropriate. Please email us with a copy of your sig if you wish to know why. -Conuion Meow ([email protected])
Lowanaera Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard Vigilia Valeria	Posted - 2007.02.15 20:52:00 - [4] Since some of us don't want 20 threads from nano pilots about the blog Same reason the entire nano discussion was condensed into one stickied thread to prevent it from swamping the forum with nothing else like it was.
MYSTERY ALT	Posted - 2007.02.15 21:04:00 - [5] If interceptors get completely screwed because of this I will not be happy, they were becoming more and more useless before Kali. I-stabs and setups involving cap sustainability encouraged more people to get in them and start tackling and using them in fleet operations. Take the crow for example, it does pathetic damage and can only really take on specific targets solo, but with alot of time put into training support skills and set-up for maximum speed it is incredibly valuable in getting up close to those blobs we see in fleet warfare and providing a warp in. Speed is an important aspect of PVP and fleet warfare in eve. Also itÆs kinda fun.
Swiftness Caldari VMF-214 Blacksheep	Posted - 2007.02.15 21:29:00 - [6] That means when you go into a fight you are risking your ship or ships, not just warping in on anything and if you can't handle it you just warp off. What about the stupid 30 sec. timer at gate / stations ????
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.15 21:33:00 - [7] Just nerf i-stabs, they are the only factor that has changed since all the speed-whining began. - Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] -Oiri Yusko
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.02.15 21:43:00 - [8] Edited by: Tasty Burger on 15/02/2007 21:40:27 I agree with you completely Phelan. Speed tanking is a vital part of the game, and many ships rely on speed to maintain range in order to win against other ships. Speed is necessary to avoid blobs. I also agree that the biggest problem is with drones, nos and missiles, not with the speed part. Also, whats with the "you must commit 100% to a fight?", tux? First you say you want tactics, and then you basically eliminate any possibility of a quick strike, roaming small gangs or guerilla tactics. Sounds to me like you want to make everyone fly blasterthrons tbh. And I guess you don't like smaller groups being able to attack larger ones through better tactics. You have a really messed up idea of what tactics are. Speed is really the only thing minmatar have going for it that is unique. Minmatar needs the advantage of being able to dictate the terms of the engagement, because it can't fight on equal footing with the other races due to weaker tanks and less damage. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
Tovran Kinda'Shujaa Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.02.15 21:53:00 - [9] Edited by: Tovran on 15/02/2007 21:51:44 Personally I have no problem with the possibility of large ships going fast. The problem is when ships dedicated for speed (interceptors) are getting outstripped for this by Battleships. I couldn't give a damn about a Typhoon or Dominix cruising around at 1.5-2km/s, but I have encountered those going upwards of 5-7km/s and that just shouldn't happen. Add this speed to the ability to nullify most ships capable of catching them (Heavy NOS) and a mass that means webs are close to useless against any nano pilot with half a brain means these very large ships are behaving in ways that were never intended. The real "last straw" is the amazing agility the ships also get along with all the other bonuses. It isn't just the fact that they are going fast but all these little things together, which make a broken ship. I'd be happy if nano/I-stabs become stacking nerfed and/or the agility bonus is changed to reflect weight class. By all means have a fast battleship, just not a giant frigate.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Tasty Burger Speed is really the only thing minmatar have going for it that is unique. Minmatar needs the advantage of being able to dictate the terms of the engagement, because it can't fight on equal footing with the other races due to weaker tanks and less damage. Did you check sleipnir's tank compared to anything else? Or perhaps dps of sleipnir vs absolution? -------- .....
ForeverKnight Caldari World Order	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:10:00 - [11] gotta comment that some typhoons I've fought had the toughest armor tanks I've ever seen on any ship, while still putting out quite a hurtin. (Capless weapons FTW) Tempests have good shield tanks, Maelstrom has basically a God tank, only thing that comes close is a Rokh.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:47:00 - [12] Allow me to LMAO @ the minmatar forum brigade. At least it's a good thing that you finally say it out loud what exactly it is that you want. Originally by: Tasty Burger Minmatar needs the advantage of being able to dictate the terms of the engagement, because it can't fight on equal footing with the other races due to weaker tanks and less damage. You are saying that a minmatar ship should always be able to decide if it want to stay and fight, or run (and be able to do so). WTF would anyone ever want to fly anything but minmatar then? Originally by: Tasty Burger many ships rely on speed to maintain range in order to win against other ships. And this is where all your arguments completely brake down. A ship going 1500 m/s vs a ship that goes 1000 m/s can dictate the range just as good as in a situation with one going 6000 m/s vs 4000 m/s. The only things that is different between these 2 situations are: 1. In the second situation, there's basicly not any weapon in EVE that can hurt you, while in the first all weaponsystems can. 2. If you as a player lack skills, and mess up and get webbed, you are in deep ** in the first situation, but in the second it doesn't rly matter ** all. Quit your lame attempts to disguise your intention, all you're looking for is to preserve a flawed situation where you're invulnerable. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.15 23:48:00 - [13] Quote: Personally I have no problem with the possibility of large ships going fast. The problem is when ships dedicated for speed (interceptors) are getting outstripped for this by Battleships. I couldn't give a damn about a Typhoon or Dominix cruising around at 1.5-2km/s, but I have encountered those going upwards of 5-7km/s and that just shouldn't happen. Comments like these are exactly why I get frustrated reading threads about nanos. Battleships going faster than interceptors is unacceptable ... if it were true. Put the pilot that's doing 5-7 km/s in a bs into an interceptor and he'll do 9-12 km/s+. These "bs are faster than inties" "facts" are simply wrong statements spewed forth by ignorant people. Currently, committing to a fight on your own will generally result in getting ganked by a large group of players that you have no chance against. The majority of people who think they're PvP'ers simply form up into odds you cannot compete against and try and bait you into death. Speed allows these blobs to be sidestepped by the skilled, and so interceptors/fast cruisers were very popular. Now speed bs are popular, and since the blobs set up to attack slow moving targets are horribly ineffective against them, people hop onto the forums and immediately begin whining about them being overpowered. Consider both sides' point of view: is it "tactical" to get into a group of three times your enemys' number and lock them up one by one, F1-F8'ing them? Or flying your half a billion+ nanobs, weaving around people not set up to counter you while trying to kill them off one by one, staying out of short range weapons and dodging interceptors with webs? I don't like the way eve is being dumbed down. I don't like it one bit
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:15:00 - [14] Edited by: HankMurphy on 16/02/2007 00:14:38 Originally by: dalman blah blah..... Quit your lame attempts to disguise your intention, all you're looking for is to preserve a flawed situation where you're invulnerable. wow, so we are going 'there' are we? we are now INVULNERABLE! lol.. does your butt hurt after pulling out your argument? The day minmatar dont have speed is the day..... -caldari shouldn't be able to spam missiles 0-200km -drone boats cant fit a full rack of nos ontop of their t2 drones -amarr cant hold their cap? (wow, yeah, they should really let these guys have their gank-a-geddons back) speed is as much a legitimate factor in an engagement as anything else. ISTABS NEED TO BE FIXED... as before they got upped we never really saw teh nanodomi. before the istab nerf i saw many fast gangs. Engaging snigg it was a given tactic, and they were damn good at it. It was before the istab craze and ya know what? god damn were they hard to catch.. but it was fair! Now... apparently they all hacking xploits if they going over 1km/s? bandwagons are fun. nerf this, nerf that, dumb down the game! if it aint helpin caldari, its useless? So, what are minmatar's racial abilities? the 'gift' of the split slot layout? hey, remember when you could lock down a bs w/ a frig and one target painter? ... oh wait, that was someone elses ew... frack off w/ your anti minmatar bs. the nanosetups are all over the place. ppl fitting nanogeddons and nanodomis. and as far as speed in concerned, i believe the crow is the top dog of ceptors right now, w/ primary weapon that isn't effected by the speed he is traveling. you can specialize for alot of things. tank, ew, damage... but ffs this bandwagon doesn't realize is its generalizing one poorly re-implimented module (the inertial stabalizer) into a 'burn the witch' crusade against ANYTHING that can travel fast. screw that. we have mwd's, we have nano's, we have speed rigs, we have implants that increase your speed. we will have combat boosters and we have velocity effecting gang mods.... do you think that all this is coinicidental? couple that with the fact minmatar have ships with velocity ship bonus and that the 2 fastest battleships in the game (machariel and typhoon) are minmatar? yeah, i'm sure speed was never intended as a viable combat option /sarcasm yeah, you'll get your nerf. but its probly not gonna be what you want. afterwards your still going to see speed setups, only they aren't going to be very viable on the domis and the curse and whatever the hell ppl wanna load out w/ istabs and nanofibs, they are gonna be back in the hands of the race that should have them, just like before, and ppl will need to find a new flavor of the week to crusade against. i had a nanophoon 2 years ago. it could be tackled then and it can be now, just as the vaga can be caught and anything else. I have no problem with them fixing istabs, hell i encourage it. but this crap that speed setups are exploits? lol, riiiiight. i wonder if its coincidence that a large %age of dissenting voices on the topic are caldari.. and the only viable defense vs missiles is a high velocity? ..... nah, its probly just cause 3/4 of the player base are caldari (hmmmm, wonder why that is?) not fun when the flavor of the week doesn't work for your race is it?
Marcus TheMartin Gallente Tuxedo.	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:26:00 - [15] Originally by: HankMurphy nah, its probly just cause 3/4 of the player base are caldari (hmmmm, wonder why that is?) Because the majority of online gamers are white me thinks (I'm black but minmatar looked too gorilla for me so I chose a gallente and tried to darken him up ) Maybe its just me but I think people would chose something that they relate to some what (not entirely true as I know some Caucasians that play matari and etc.) Snip Not appropriate, email [email protected] with a link to the sig for a reason why - hutch
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:29:00 - [16] Originally by: dalman Allow me to LMAO @ the minmatar forum brigade. At least it's a good thing that you finally say it out loud what exactly it is that you want. ... Quit your lame attempts to disguise your intention, all you're looking for is to preserve a flawed situation where you're invulnerable. Yes... you have us all figured out. Its been our evil plan all along to get minmatar ships to be invulnerable!!! No. Just to make speed tanks just as viable as other tanks. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
mallina Caldari Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Tasty Burger No. Just to make speed tanks just as viable as other tanks. how about when 'other tanks' actually do something other than delay your inevitable death? if you want to be fast, evasive and avoid blobs - use smaller ships. simple. whatever happened to the old inty/af ganksquads that we used to see roaming through alliance space? they're gone, cause the Nanophoon does the same thing but 10 times better
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.16 00:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Phelan Lore Just nerf i-stabs, they are the only factor that has changed since all the speed-whining began. Rigs. Those are actually the main reason for the nanoship boom.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Phelan Lore Just nerf i-stabs, they are the only factor that has changed since all the speed-whining began. Rigs. Those are actually the main reason for the nanoship boom. i dont believe this is correct, but we can point the finger at any one of many variables... really to fit a nano ship all you need is mwd, istabs and nanos i believe. and since the istab change things been goin ALOT faster than they ever did. just need to use ALL your lows to do it. maybe rigs make them more viable.... but they make everything more viable (kinda the point). istabs are outta whack right now. everyone knows that. fix istabs, fix the issue imo. of course.... that wouldn't result in a game-wide nerf of speed period, which i'm pretty sure you and many others are lookin for?
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:08:00 - [20] Originally by: HankMurphy i dont believe this is correct, but we can point the finger at any one of many variables... I do not "believe", I test. You should try it yourself. Phoon on sisi. 5 LH nanos, 1 RCU, 1 BCU. I exchange 2 LH nanos with 2 LH instabs. MWD speed increase: 8%. I put 3 vent rigs on it: MWD speed increase 48%.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:09:00 - [21] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: HankMurphy nah, its probly just cause 3/4 of the player base are caldari (hmmmm, wonder why that is?) Because the majority of online gamers are white me thinks (I'm black but minmatar looked too gorilla for me so I chose a gallente and tried to darken him up ) Maybe its just me but I think people would chose something that they relate to some what (not entirely true as I know some Caucasians that play matari and etc.) that is good point. i choose minmatar cause my friend that got me into the game was minnie and i wanted my char to spawn in heimatar where he was. i am caucasian and if i hadn't picked minnie, i woulda probly picked caldari just on first glance. .....however, this is not to say that MANY ppl walking up to the character creation screen w/ prior knowledge didn't pick caldari and create caldari alts in the days of the raven and EW superiority.
HankMurphy Pelennor Swarm	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:14:00 - [22] Edited by: HankMurphy on 16/02/2007 01:12:44 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: HankMurphy i dont believe this is correct, but we can point the finger at any one of many variables... I do not "believe", I test. You should try it yourself. Phoon on sisi. 5 LH nanos, 1 RCU, 1 BCU. I exchange 2 LH nanos with 2 LH instabs. MWD speed increase: 8%. I put 3 vent rigs on it: MWD speed increase 48%. i was trying to be polite, ass. for the first time in like... forever. now you ruined for everyone. but you will find speed isn't the #1 factor here. its the agility and mass. otherwise for a nanoship to engage you they would not be able to achieve even close to their max speed as they try to manuver. with ultra agility and super low mass, suddenly the fast battleship (which is cool by itself) becomes as agile as a frig (THIS is where teh issue lies) not w/ the max achievable speed but what you can negotiate AT max speed. i'm a pilot, not a number cruncher, but i have the experience and TESTING under my belt as a minnie pilot to understand the concept. i'm not here to talk #'s, i'm here to talk about REAL combat strategy and ability. that takes into account ALOT more than base/max speed.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:33:00 - [23] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 16/02/2007 01:30:46 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: HankMurphy i dont believe this is correct, but we can point the finger at any one of many variables... I do not "believe", I test. You should try it yourself. Phoon on sisi. 5 LH nanos, 1 RCU, 1 BCU. I exchange 2 LH nanos with 2 LH instabs. MWD speed increase: 8%. I put 3 vent rigs on it: MWD speed increase 48%. Both of you are right. The topspeed change from IStabs is only sort of a big deal in the land of intys. The big whammo about IStabs is the joys of reductions in figures and exponentiating those (only almost true for mass, but completely true for agility). 2 Istabs basicly mean over double the agility. Meaning IStabs are about agility, which has changed a good few things. Rigs are about topspeed. Both were way overdone. Neither really matters right now though, as they're currently somewhat holding the role of forcing more engagements and working through snipers/EW. If ranges were shortened by 50% and high-speed stuff across the board slowed down, we could talk. The proposed solution of more punitive MWDs is still horrible though. They're over-penalized for anyone not dedicated to them already, and even then non-Gist are pretty terrible.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.16 01:37:00 - [24] True enough. -1% mass gives you exactly the same agility boost as -1% inertia (in addition to boosting your MWD speed), so essentially instabs give a double agility bonus. So 3 instabs vs 3 nanos give only 67% of the inertia, meaing an 48% better agility. This is something I overlooked there. However the vent rigs still give the bigger boost. A phoon with 5 nanos and 3 vents is about 20% faster in a 15k orbit than a phoon with 2 nanos & 3 instabs. And better equipment (t2 nanos, faction MWD) all increase the effeciency of the nano & rig setup more than that of the instab one. With the agility boost taken into account instabs have a a good deal greater effect than I thought before, though. Not bigger than that of vents, but much closer to them than before.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.16 02:51:00 - [25] Every ship has its counter,some ships are tougher to counter then others,lets check amarr gellente.Ill only add battleships. amarr:apoc-cause more damage then it,go faster then it so it cant track,nos it. Geddon-nos it,break away its tank fast,go faster then it can track. Abad-nos it,go faster then it so its guns cant track. Gellente:Domi-kill its drones,use cap boosters and tank it. Mega-break its tank away fast,stay out of its range. Hyperion-break its tank away fast(thats hard),stay out of its range. Ok,this is why dictating range hurts,all of the above a istab/nano bs can do,not only by breaking its tank etc...But causing it to do no damage at all,this is much like ecms pre-nerf,accept instead of it being chanced base there are only stupid pilots and people that want to spend alot of money against you. Now although the above is true another thing is true,the people that can go 8km/sec in a bs generally spent alot of money into that setup.Not only that but it could also be countered by extreme tanking it whilst nossing it yourself,or getting intys to catch it etc... Now the problems with the counters are because you have to treat it like an inty,but it has the cap of a battleship and weapons of a battleship,therefore if an inty catches it its nossed its scram/scrams turn off and hes able to warp away,whereas say a crow you get nossed you stop moving fast. This results in a system where he can dictate range,and also dictate the price needed in order to take him down,therefore in of this you get a situation where any average battleship cannot even fight back,that and the ability to evade blobs is why it is so popular. Now the real problems with this are blobs,nos,missiles and to a lesser degree istabs. If you make his nos less affective he cannot hold his mwd as well and or stop a ceptor from stopping him,if you stop blobs generally youll have a more 1v1 scenerio so you take half of the need out of it,if you make his missiles weaker because of his speed he cannot go that fast or relay on his drones,and if you nerf his istabs you will make it impossible for him to go that fast in the firstplace,but will also hurt ships specifically made for that...Wow sounds like the ecm debate about ships like the scorpian being less affective because they would nerf the ecms. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr.
Isonkon Serikain Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.16 03:13:00 - [26] Originally by: Marcus TheMartin Originally by: HankMurphy nah, its probly just cause 3/4 of the player base are caldari (hmmmm, wonder why that is?) Because the majority of online gamers are white me thinks (I'm black but minmatar looked too gorilla for me so I chose a gallente and tried to darken him up ) Maybe its just me but I think people would chose something that they relate to some what (not entirely true as I know some Caucasians that play matari and etc.) I look just like my character in real life... Pity the fool
James Draekn X.E.N.O.	Posted - 2007.02.16 05:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Tuxford The biggest factor in the velocity is the microwarpdrive. Looking at microwarpdrive stats it shouldn't come as a big surprise that these modules aren't supposed to be sustainable, they have high cap need and give penalties to capacitor. However they can be, so when in doubt nerf the microwarpdrive! Well not really but we have discussed number of modification of it. If you plan on changing MWD sustainablity you better dramatically boost the base speed of all Gallente Blaster Boats to let them get into blaster range. As it is right now Blaster boats already have to compete with a 25% reduction to cap for fitting MWD, operating that MWD, being in NOS range at all times and having to run a tank. Making the MWD require more cap or reducing its effectiveness will require CCP to rebalance all blaster boats to actually let them even get close to a target.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.02.16 05:36:00 - [28] While speed setups need to be nerfed or weapons buffed, I also think bubbles should be the only way to completely stop warping. Scramblers/Disruptors should be to Warp Drive what Remote Sensor Dampers are to Sensors, make it take longer, make it take more cap...etc. The do or die killmail ***** mindset is getting old. And its what leads to all these problematic setups that eventually just get nerfed. People are too attached to the killmail = victory mentality. But there should also be more ways to sniff out unwanted ships in systems you own (aka have sov in). POS based Sensor Arrays, Anti-Cloak Pulse Arrays, and maybe even Cyno Field Disruption Arrays (friend and foe both). So rather than just nerf the direct kill, buff the hunt. The battles in Eve are not even close to being Epic, its just a matter of numbers in some form being better than your target's numbers, very little to do with tactics or strategy. In closing change targeting to be instant (but single target), without instant warp stoppage, there should be no need for a targeting delay. Course, I also think the gate system itself needs to go lol... Im rambling...meh _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender Got Corp?
Tasty Burger	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:12:00 - [29] Edited by: Tasty Burger on 16/02/2007 15:10:25 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Tasty Burger No. Just to make speed tanks just as viable as other tanks. how about when 'other tanks' actually do something other than delay your inevitable death? if you want to be fast, evasive and avoid blobs - use smaller ships. simple. whatever happened to the old inty/af ganksquads that we used to see roaming through alliance space? they're gone, cause the Nanophoon does the same thing but 10 times better The thing is though... moderate-sized frig gangs can't put out the DPS to break a good battleship in any reasonable time. I'm not saying nanobattleships should go as fast as they do now, just that speed is an essential part of EVE and for many ships, including most Recon ships, many minmatar ships and a couple others. I'm really more talking about sub-BS ships actually. I don't think any of them should be nerfed in regards to their speed. Curses, Vagabonds, Stabbers, Lachesis.. they should all be unaffected by any speed nerf since in my opinion, they are fine at the moment. Cruisers should be able to go really fast if they dedicate their setup to it. - It's great being Minmatar, ain't it?
M00dy Stain of Mind DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:58:00 - [30] Agrees with Phelan Lore. I have a bad feeling that this could be a big nerf to all Minmatar ships. HAXORZ TO THE MAXORZ BABY, YEAH!!!
Kalista Tradion	Posted - 2007.02.16 20:14:00 - [31] As usual Tux is going way overboard when all that is needed is a simple fix. Either just nerf i-stabs, or add a tag to all nanos, overdrives, istabs, speed rigs etc that makes them stacking penalize together.
Tenaka Kahn Minmatar Blackguard Brigade	Posted - 2007.02.18 09:17:00 - [32] As a minmatar pilot for going on 3 years, I know the value of speed. For 1+ years I struggled with a lack of sp to beable to fly the majority of the minmatar ships. I don't wanna see a total overhaul of the speed mechanics, though you do have to conceed the fact that there is a group of people who have overly large wallets and overly small brains who use the NOS/Speed combo on BS class ships to generally be a "I-win" button. I feel for large type ships, this is an issue. My beloved vaga and frigates and the rest of the ships I don't feel should be touched, every race can benefit from some speed. The problem begins from people who wish to have ships that require to specific ships to counter them. I support a speed nerf in the nano-bs aspect, as it is a #$%&ed game mechanic, but in general theres nothing wrong with the speed system. Some sort of speed cap to BS class ships would be approbiate, due to the fact there the only ships that are really exceeding the role they are supposed to play. I far favor tactics and skill over a deep wallet. /me puts soap box away
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services The Pentagram	Posted - 2007.02.18 11:09:00 - [33] I have no problem with minmatar being the fastest race. But i do have a problem with a battleship going 15km/s. Some of you are saying "ohnoooes you're nerfing our entire race!!!" But that is not true. You crazy speed freaks are using only those ships being able to fit lots of missilelaunchers or the droneboats. That's because you're flying to fast to hit anything with your own turrets. Tuxford is planning to slow down some wicked setups. He's not planning to make minmatar's ships slower than other races ships. It was mentioned that those speed setups reason is to avoid the blob. But in reality they are used to have literally no risk at all. At the moment they can run from almost any fight if they realize they are not gonna win. So you take all the easy, defenceless targets and don't have to fear losing your own ship. That's not balanced since 99% of all 1on1 engagements are defenceless targets to you. Originally by: Cipher7 Its like if the Imperial Star Destroyers flew past the X-Wing fighters and started flying circles around them, it would turn Star Wars into a slapstick comedy a-la Benny Hill instead
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 03:55:00 - [34] Originally by: Djerin But i do have a problem with a battleship going 15km/s. Stop posting right here. -
Nothing Ends	Posted - 2007.02.19 04:15:00 - [35] Originally by: Phelan Lore Originally by: Djerin But i do have a problem with a battleship going 15km/s. Stop posting right here. You meant stopped reading right
Phelan Lore Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:09:00 - [36] Edited by: Phelan Lore on 19/02/2007 05:06:01 Originally by: Nothing Ends Originally by: Phelan Lore Originally by: Djerin But i do have a problem with a battleship going 15km/s. Stop posting right here. You meant stopped reading right I think I meant he should have stopped posting there... That or travel back in time and stop himself. -
Dragonrazor Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.19 05:44:00 - [37] Sorry, but I have to disagree on some levels, but before everyones panties get soiled, keep in mind, I'm aprehensive of the MWD changes... IMHO changing MWD is like punishing the brother because his sister is smoking ***... 1: I don't think anyone, even TUX has a problem with some ships going faster than others, and I certainly don't think anyone has a problem with the concept of speed making your ship harder to kill... But I don't think EVE should have speed tank the same way it has armor tanks... I suggest that if you want speed tanking to be considered real tanking, then ships that speed tank shouldn't just have lower defenses, but none at all... they should go pop in one hit... Then I could see it being important for ships to be able to completely negate destruction by speed alone. But as the game stands now, high speed is meant to make up for, but not completely replace shield and armor tanking... My ship takes less "real" damage over time, because i can resist it, and what I don't resist I repair... Your speedy ship however resists less effectively, and can't repair or boost it as fast, but to make up for this, it's faster, and smaller and gets hit less often... In a perfect system, the end result should be that when everything else is equal, we should both be able to survive the same amount of firepower... While I take more hits, and you take fewer, but feel each one more deeply. In the end, like so many others out there who exploit these extreme cases and them call them valid tactics, I submit that it is generaly due to a lack of tactical thinking that these setups are so appealing... because aparently before the use of these super speed setups, you couldn't get the job done, but now, you can. If thats the case, stop posting this nonsense and go home... If on the other hand you say you did just fine before these speed setups became so potent, then why are you so adamant about having them removed? Won't you still be Pwning everything just like before it became a hot fad? Whats more your reaction to the first qoute is hillarious... fixing Nanophoons and other nonesense isn't about controlling the range, or manuevering to stay out of web range... It's about exploiting a game imbalance to become quite overpowered... Because you know damn well that if your anything of a EVE player, let alone a PVP'er that you don't "NEED" any of these exploits to both manuever out of web range, or control the range one bit... your responce to the second post is also kind of laughable... Part of the risk of any fight, is that when you engage, you make yourself vulnerable... Are you just another Carebear PVP'er who wants no risk? Or are you a Real PVP'er that doesn't mind a little risk? MEthinks your the former thanks. Blobs and camps are another issue, but if your answer to them is allowing ships to go whatever speed you like, then well... sorry... I'm glad you arn't making games for a living... As for those who suggest a speed setup isn't useful or all that powerful, then why is it even used? You can't honestly beleive people do it just for fun... that it has no detrimental impact on the game? Nope... sorry... No offense... I agree, nerfing MWD's feels like a knee jerk response (sounds a lot simpler to change the code for one module than a slew of low slot ones), but arguing that these speed imbalances are good or should be accepted, well... Then I have a few things I would like to see unbalanced and accepted too... Things that only work on my account and no one elses of course... ***************************************** "Stars Die... Empires fall... We are dust..." *******************************************
EPSILON DELTA	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:22:00 - [38] Quote: It was mentioned that those speed setups reason is to avoid the blob. But in reality they are used to have literally no risk at all. At the moment they can run from almost any fight if they realize they are not gonna win. So you take all the easy, defenceless targets and don't have to fear losing your own ship. That's not balanced since 99% of all 1on1 engagements are defenceless targets to you. My Badger can run from almost any fight once I realize I can't win with my 1 turret, if the enemy dosn't have a scrambler fitted Same goes for non-webbed / inty supported blob, got a problem with that, get yourself a web, otherwise you are just doing the same as complaining your target escaped when hes not scrambled. I think everyone knows the whole discussion arose from the 10km/s batteship problem, and that's where the nerf should go, I really don't know how it got to the devs thinking nerfing minnie, but i highly doubt that's really going to happen. -------------------------------------------------- Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it?
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Riggers Incorporated	Posted - 2007.02.19 06:43:00 - [39] Looking back at the nerf history of EvE, show a good trend. 1: Geddon with 8 heatsinks. Best melter in the galaxy. Solved by introducing a heavy stacking penality. 2: Hardnes could once give very high reisitances (think some actually got 100%). Solved by adding stacking penality. 3: WCS were making people safe from harm. Evil combat nerf to those. Why not add same penality to nano's and i-stabs? Seems to fit with the history. I still think the best solution would be adding the heat system to excessive speeds. Basically, the centrifugal (sp?) force should throw the turrets out of their hard points and the ship should start to bend. So damage to ship/mods. Try to sit in a car that turn in a sharp circle with 150 km/h. The car might be able to (good grip and what not), but the interior of the car would be thrown out of the window . (Yes, eve is a game and not RL. The laws of the game is dictated by the devs, and they do a good job).
Franconis	Posted - 2007.02.19 09:08:00 - [40] Edited by: Franconis on 19/02/2007 09:06:32 I've seen nanoships go 0-15km/s in round about a second. In RL, any biological material within that ship would be squished under it's own weight due to the incredible G forces imposed on it. The pod pilot would turn into a red ooze. Part of minmitar ship training must be to throw away your biological body and replace it with a solid state computer made of materials WAY stronger than any superconductive material we know of today. Hell, even if that were true, the pilot would probably rip itself out the side of the ship like someone swinging a bowling ball around in a plastic bag. My point: that sort of maneuverability and accelleration would kill any pod pilot, so there should be some sort of survivable limit on speed and maneuverability. I'm not saying that limiting speed is fair, but carbon based life forms just weren't designed to withstand thousands of times their own weight. I'm sure any fighter pilot (and I know a few) would tell you the same.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar MASS HOMICIDE FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Phelan Lore Just nerf i-stabs, they are the only factor that has changed since all the speed-whining began. no they are not.. the biggest speed difference came form the Rigs taht improve MWD max speed. Not form the istabs. # istabs increase your speet at about 32% but you need to remove nanos to fit them, and on a typhoon that means 21% less speed. So the istabs gave about 11% speed improvment. The rigs are bringing 45% speed improvment. So clearly they are the guilty. If brute force doesn't solve your problem.. then you are not using enough!!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.19 10:30:00 - [42] Instabs also improve the ship agility a bit more than nanos, though (-1% mass gives the same agility boost as -1% inertia, so in a sense instabs give a double agility boost). If you include the effect agility has on orbiting speed (and general ship survivability) it's a good deal stronger than if you only look at max speed. Still not as big as a boost as the rigs give, though. And since instabs give a bigger boost to smaller ships than to battleships nerfing them would effect those ships which do not need a nerf more than those who do (well, technically they give the same boost to both, but nanos are less effective on smaller ships, so switching one with an instabs gives you a bigger relative boost the higher the base speed of a ship is).
Vmir Gallahasen Gallente Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.19 11:03:00 - [43] Istabs are only a component in the problem of ridiculous speed, mainly due to their reduction to ship mass, and that's only a lesser component on the whole. The two main factors (in my opinion, of course) are the Propellant Injection Vent rigs, +15% mwd speed each and no stacking penalty, and the Snake implant set. 3 PIV's is 1.15 ^ 3 = a little over 52% to mwd speed, which is effectively +52% velocity while mwd is on. A high-grade snake set adds 53.63% to base velocity. A 52% + 53.63% bonus = 133.5% increase to overall speed (!) Take a bs flying at 8 km/s. If you remove its PIV's and snake set, you'd have a bs doing roughly 3.4 km/s, much more reasonable (as compared to previous whines, I'm sure it will still offend some people). Nerfing MicroWarpDrives isn't the answer. I don't think nerfing istabs is, either, though it may be argued they're too good. PIV's are definitely overpowered and could do with some altered stats or an additional penalty (increasing mwd cap use a fair margin? reducing agility?). Pirate faction implants create an imbalance too, since every nano thread I've seen so far quotes ships that cannot possibly go that fast without a snake set, so perhaps those could be looked into as well
Dita Jin	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:34:00 - [44] Originally by: Franconis Edited by: Franconis on 19/02/2007 09:06:32 I've seen nanoships go 0-15km/s in round about a second. In RL, any biological material within that ship would be squished under it's own weight due to the incredible G forces imposed on it. How can there be g-forces in a zero g enviroment? Then again looking at the laws of physics, in a zero-g enviroment mass and inertia cannot count in as factors for the agility of a ship. Also even with a 1mn afterburner on a battleship the ship would accelerate over time to inifinitive top speeds even if mass and inertia would count in as factors for agility in a zero-g enviroment. But that's just how it works in real life. I do not like a ship whoose role is to provide solid muscle for cruiser detachments flying around at 15km/s. battleships are, from what i know supposed to tank damage and let smaller ships take care of the enemy, or deal out alot of damage to large targets and take care of it before it can take care of the smaller ships. Nerfing mwd might work, but then suddenly the thorax for example would become totally worthless along with many other ships that favor close combat over sniping. I think a system where nos and energy neutralizers would use up utility slots would work for getting the nanophoons go without nerfing mwd and other things that would totally imbalance other aspects of a game. Give the typhoon one or two utlity slots, then it suddenly becomes stupid to fit two nos and travel around your target trying to drain it. Same would work for getting other overpowered stuff away, like the nos domi, with one or two utility slots it's not as effective anymore and people will stop using it. And all this you don't need to nerf any numbers at all, making ships like curse and bhaalgorn perfectly suited for their intended role. Also, speedtanking is viable for interceptors mainly, they are designed for that, that's why they lack armorplating to sustain damage unlike assaultfrigates who are more geared towards taking hits, as described in an earlier post it is a perfect balance.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.19 13:54:00 - [45] Edited by: Aramendel on 19/02/2007 13:52:22 Originally by: Dita Jin How can there be g-forces in a zero g enviroment? Er... you might want to get a better understanding of physics because that comment is rather ignorant. Zero G enviroment does not mean there are no g-forces. It means that you are not under the influence of a gravity well. Which is in the end simply an acceleration force. 1g is an acceleration of 9.8 m/s¦. It does not matter at all if that force comes from standing on the earth or being in a ship not in earth's gravity well which accellerates by 9.8 m/s¦, the effect is 100% identical. Meaning if a ship acellerates from 0 to 1000 m/s in 1 second people in the ship would experience an accelleration force of 100g, which would reduce them to something similar to strawberry paste.
kill0rbunny Caldari Chimera Intelligence Agency	Posted - 2007.02.19 14:04:00 - [46] I would just increase the calibration amount for speed rigs to 250-300 and give a stacking penalty that affects both nanos and inertias together. - I got a portrait now, wheeeee! \o/

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