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Drackx	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:58:00 - [31] Crashing a node has become a popular game tactic (I call it an exploit) in major fleet battles. A Titan under construction is as such an extreme easy target even if you have a 1000 pilots defending it in 1 system. So what can CCP do to fix this. Just make it possible to build a Titan in an NPC station, simple as that. Drackx
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 13:59:00 - [32] Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 16/02/2007 13:40:21 Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram If this is the way people think about using 'mechanics' the game really looses it appeal for all of us. But you can crash the node too? Well that's the most pathetic excuse I heared in a long time. When condoned I forsee way more node crashes and people loosing interested in not fighting. Agreed! Why play this game if these are the "tactics" required to win... You don't even have to ******* train your damn skills if you can play this way and win... Instead of 0.0 alliance "playstyle" attracting players to EVE, it's now turing them away, execpt for the ones who believe this is a justified tactic... That just leaves cheaters cheating each other out of wins, not actually fighting for them... I'd like CCP to tell me why I should pay for this. Plz give me your best sales pitch. I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say... You're absolutely right. I think you should quit EVE right now. Clearly it was all done as an exploit. I mean there's no possible reason that there could've been ANY particular rationale that would cause every pilot to descend on one system at once. I mean, it's not like there was some target there which really demanded sending everything anyone had at it since it was an opportunity which might never be repeated. NONE WHATSOEVER!
DarkMatter Amarr Mineral Aquisition Group	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:04:00 - [33] Originally by: James Duar Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 16/02/2007 13:40:21 Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram If this is the way people think about using 'mechanics' the game really looses it appeal for all of us. But you can crash the node too? Well that's the most pathetic excuse I heared in a long time. When condoned I forsee way more node crashes and people loosing interested in not fighting. Agreed! Why play this game if these are the "tactics" required to win... You don't even have to ******* train your damn skills if you can play this way and win... Instead of 0.0 alliance "playstyle" attracting players to EVE, it's now turing them away, execpt for the ones who believe this is a justified tactic... That just leaves cheaters cheating each other out of wins, not actually fighting for them... I'd like CCP to tell me why I should pay for this. Plz give me your best sales pitch. I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say... You're absolutely right. I think you should quit EVE right now. Clearly it was all done as an exploit. I mean there's no possible reason that there could've been ANY particular rationale that would cause every pilot to descend on one system at once. I mean, it's not like there was some target there which really demanded sending everything anyone had at it since it was an opportunity which might never be repeated. NONE WHATSOEVER! Are you a fraking idiot or what? Of course I know there was a target there... That's not the point, the point is we can't have real fights, and I want CCP to tell me why should we all pay for this crap... If we're outnumbered, so be it, but lets have some real fightts here, not look at the login screen for 3 hours and never get a chance to fight... That's absurd... For both sides... Building the homestead That of which we do not speak of
Noggin TheNog	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Strength Cow Until a node can support the types of numbers in this battle, it is up to the players themselves to make a rule amongst themselves (for those who will accept it) that no gang can be larger than 75 in size in the same system. Large fleet battles will need to be a serious of mid sized fights until one side still has 75 pilots and the other side is out. Also, the OP was obviously written by a person who is on the LV side. I am neutral myself, but it was easy to tell he was a pro LV guy regardless of which side deserved to win or not. What he said. If both parties to this war are, in fact, playing a game rather than waging an actual war on a virtual battlefield, then it should be possible to engage in meta-communication such that significant battles like these could be successfully fought with numbers that won't bust the node. Given the apparent hard limit of one node per solar system, and the fact that EVERYONE knows Jita is hell with 600 in local when they're NOT all fighting each other at once, it should be possible for sensible players to arrange sensible limits to the way they play the game against each other. I suspect, though, that it's all a bit too real for both sides, and that any such limitation would be ignored. I can't see that anyone could describe what happened as in any way "fun" or "playing" though, and in that respect I would consider both sides to be losers in this war... Or is that just me? Noggin
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:07:00 - [35] If this is how this war is going to play out, CCP needs to put a damned limit on the number of people in a system. I'd rather have each side forced to split their fleet than the "battles" consist of repeated node crashes and attempts to get as many enemies as possible disconnected. EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:07:00 - [36] Originally by: DarkMatter Originally by: James Duar Originally by: DarkMatter Edited by: DarkMatter on 16/02/2007 13:40:21 Originally by: Ghaelsto Kakram If this is the way people think about using 'mechanics' the game really looses it appeal for all of us. But you can crash the node too? Well that's the most pathetic excuse I heared in a long time. When condoned I forsee way more node crashes and people loosing interested in not fighting. Agreed! Why play this game if these are the "tactics" required to win... You don't even have to ******* train your damn skills if you can play this way and win... Instead of 0.0 alliance "playstyle" attracting players to EVE, it's now turing them away, execpt for the ones who believe this is a justified tactic... That just leaves cheaters cheating each other out of wins, not actually fighting for them... I'd like CCP to tell me why I should pay for this. Plz give me your best sales pitch. I'm really interested in hearing what you have to say... You're absolutely right. I think you should quit EVE right now. Clearly it was all done as an exploit. I mean there's no possible reason that there could've been ANY particular rationale that would cause every pilot to descend on one system at once. I mean, it's not like there was some target there which really demanded sending everything anyone had at it since it was an opportunity which might never be repeated. NONE WHATSOEVER! Are you a fraking idiot or what? Of course I know there was a target there... That's not the point, the point is we can't have real fights, and I want CCP to tell me why should we all pay for this crap... If we're outnumbered, so be it, but lets have some real fightts here, not look at the login screen for 3 hours and never get a chance to fight... That's absurd... For both sides... I'm calling you a retard in a circuitous manner because like most other people posting about the latest fight it apparently is inconceivable that that many people turned up because it was a surprise opportunity to deliver a crushing blow to an enemy, and essentially seemed like it would be the fight of the year with the opportunity to kill huge fleets and pop capital ships. But no. That's impossible. CLEARLY all those people turned up because everyone got the memo in advance saying "HAY GUYZ LV'S DEFENSE IS TOO STRONG - YOU SHOULD ALL COME AND CRASH TEH NODE SO WE WIN!" So yes, I'm calling you an idiot. Because you're acting like one.
Kaylana Syi Minmatar The Nest Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:10:00 - [37] Originally by: Dark Shikari If this is how this war is going to play out, CCP needs to put a damned limit on the number of people in a system. I'd rather have each side forced to split their fleet than the "battles" consist of repeated node crashes and attempts to get as many enemies as possible disconnected. how would this be different than a massive tournament style king of the hill. Timezone wars would be even more prolific. One of your Sigs contained inappropriate material for the eve-o forums, please email [email protected] for a explination. - hutch Team Minmatar Carriers need Clone Vats
Pinpisa Jormao	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:10:00 - [38] Blah blah Lets just all log to SISI then after node crashes and determine the winner there in Free for all. Winner may then enter the system in TQ and loser will hand over everything in it.
ErbUs Minmatar Freedom Guard Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:15:00 - [39] Fact of the matter is fileding a 1000+ man fleet is unprecedented and for such a target of oportunity "Curse of the Red Swarm" would have kept throwing everything there.... even now
Juliette Red Jags Corp	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:21:00 - [40] snip Inappropiate for the forums - Kreul Intentions ([email protected])
FedEx Guy	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Dark Shikari If this is how this war is going to play out, CCP needs to put a damned limit on the number of people in a system. I'd rather have each side forced to split their fleet than the "battles" consist of repeated node crashes and attempts to get as many enemies as possible disconnected. I hope you realise how insane this sounds. All the defending side would need to do is get X characters logged on in the system and it would be invulnerable. They don't even have to be comabt characters, any 0-day alt with no SP would contribute. In the end you have a blob of combat-useless characters and no fighting because the invaders can't invade. I hope I'm not the only one who sees irony there. I think last night shows how incidents like this should be handled, there just needs to be a system to get it done faster. After seeing the load and chain-crashing of the node, the GMs put JV1V-O onto a dedicated node in the same way as Jita. This node came online at the same time coalition capitals jumped into system and was the only reason they were able to take out the tower. Gameplay went from crashing every 3 minutes to just simple lag and long loading screens. Alot of that lag and wait was caused by all the people re-logging from the previous crash. If the node had been reinforced like this hours before the forces were being assembled, the fight would have been resolved much earlier and with a more accurate representation on each side.
Gunner Dark	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:36:00 - [42] its become a joke CCP will take all there awards and nominations , and say look at EvE intergalactic war wohooooo but the game is screwed, ok so it may not be actually possible to have 600-1000 ppl in one system due to things that ccp cant fix, but if thats the case then they have to change game mechanics, CCP its your fault that ).) wars can be decided one way....the blob way, its your fault that the game has been directed in this stupid pos war way ITS YOUR DAM JOB TO FIX IT This war between LV and BoB vs RaGoon is not going to be decided by the best fighters, the best FC's and logistics teams, or the most dedicated pilots, it will be decided by who can throw the most numbers at a system and reconnect the quickest put you head in the sand all you want CCP, eve is a sick puppy atm, and ppl will start to walk if you dont do something, and soon
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:39:00 - [43] It does seem unlikely that eve or any game will be able to flawlessly handle the quantity of people who can get summoned to a fight like this. 1000 people in one system fighting? Egad man. And that's only going to get worse... Load balancing would surely help but I think the suggestion made above - to have a crashed node give login priority to those pilots already in the system - would really discourage abuse from happening. At least until an admin can give the system its own node so the war can continue. - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - -
Virida Mindstar Technology United Confederation of Corporations	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:41:00 - [44] Originally by: Dark Shikari If this is how this war is going to play out, CCP needs to put a damned limit on the number of people in a system. I'd rather have each side forced to split their fleet than the "battles" consist of repeated node crashes and attempts to get as many enemies as possible disconnected. how? if we all know the max is, say, 500, then one could put 500 friendlies in a system, and if its, say, max 200 per alliance, you could have, as example, 200 bob, 200 mc, 200 LV, versus 200 CA, 200 goon, 200 RA, 200 tnt, and 200 snig jumping in for fun, and 100-200 tourists messing up. no solution there. If its dynamically loaded to, say, Max_insystem_possible/Number_corps= Number_per_corps, it would not be balanced: bob, fix, mc, and lv would be steamrolled by coalitions until forums would collapse. EVE cant favour a coalition of small corps and alliances, in front of huge strong ones. And EVE do not got the advantage of having factions hard coded, who, say, Anarchy Online got, since this problem is not possible in faction based games, ever. This is a problem only for "sandbox" games, who its hard to solve.
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:48:00 - [45] Historically node crashes have always favored BoB/LV. As have Aurora. As have the devs. Like i said before... LV owed EVE a mothership.. i think a titan makes us even.
Mesuk Esuckee Love You Long Time	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:53:00 - [46] Originally by: Noggin TheNog What he said. If both parties to this war are, in fact, playing a game rather than waging an actual war on a virtual battlefield, then it should be possible to engage in meta-communication such that significant battles like these could be successfully fought with numbers that won't bust the node. Given the apparent hard limit of one node per solar system, and the fact that EVERYONE knows Jita is hell with 600 in local when they're NOT all fighting each other at once, it should be possible for sensible players to arrange sensible limits to the way they play the game against each other. I suspect, though, that it's all a bit too real for both sides, and that any such limitation would be ignored. I can't see that anyone could describe what happened as in any way "fun" or "playing" though, and in that respect I would consider both sides to be losers in this war... Or is that just me? Noggin It's just you. The fact is, we are all playing a game, and that's why this metagame communication wouldn't work. I wasn't there last night to crash the node, I was there to take part in killing a Titan. This is something I may never have a chance to do again, and it sounded like a hell of a lot of fun. If you have your alliances hashing out number limits, who decides who gets to have the fun? How do you pick the players? What about the 1000 other people in alliance who pay to have fun? Minmatar too beaucoup!
Cadela Fria Amarr Eye of God X-PACT	Posted - 2007.02.16 14:55:00 - [47] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Historically node crashes have always favored BoB/LV. As have Aurora. As have the devs. Like i said before... LV owed EVE a mothership.. i think a titan makes us even. Weren't you the one telling someone to stop trolling with alts? Weren't you also the one called out on doing the same thing, once before? ...my work here is done. - New sig in the workings -Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right - ....steals a cookie from the ISD cookie yarr >_>
Bigby angels of darkness LTD Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:07:00 - [48] Originally by: DarkMatter That's not the point, the point is we can't have real fights, and I want CCP to tell me why should we all pay for this crap... I try and stay out of things like this, but stop and have a look at what you're all saying. 1000 person fleet battle (almost) - what other game can you do something like this in? WoW, COH? People have been moaning that the servers can't handle the fleet blobs since the game started, and as soon as CCP bump the hardware and make changes to suppor the latest fleet limit the fleet sizes just go up to hit the new limit. I'm pretty damn sure that CCP understand the limitations of the hard and software that they're dealing with and I'm sure they're working to solve it. yes, it was unfortunate that this played out like it did, but can everyone just step back and look at the magnitude of the fleet battle and be impressed that it was even conceivable. /out
Mashie Saldana Minmatar HOW Industries	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:29:00 - [49] As posted above, until dynamic loadbalancing and multi node support per solar system is implemented, large fleet battles will remain as they are now regardless how much new hardware CCP add. Btw, did anyone fraps the POS popping?
mmm cheese	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:40:00 - [50] This reminds me of how PLanetside went sadly. Once upon a time afaik there was no limit to the amount of people in a continent (on one server) so you got massive Zergs which would make the game unplayable, massive server lag and lots of disconnections and what not. SOE introduced hard limits to the amount of people you could have on each continent (now planet for some daft reason) at one time sadly :( I believe it helped kill off the game of course SOE complete and utter incompetence may also have helped, I really hope CCP doesn't go down the same route.
Louis DelaBlanche Cosmic Odyssey Chorus of Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:49:00 - [51] I think CCP have mentioned manytimes that they never intended for fleet battles of this magnetude to occur. Then again, if you cram a deadend system with 300 or so defenders & bubble blob the gate; knowing that your opponent can & will bring superior numbers to the battle...You cant really complain that the node crashed. Sadly this game is not yet capable of handling the dream battles we all seem to crave. It wont stop ppl trying to fight them, & it wont stop ppl complaining when the node says "to hell with this" & dies. ...I do agree though that if a node does crash, ppl outside the system it died in shouldnt be able to 'sneak' in while ppl are stuck logging.
Roshan longshot Gallente Ordos Humanitas	Posted - 2007.02.16 15:51:00 - [52] And people wonder why I dont do fleet battles....I perfer smaller engaements of no more the 15 combined ships.... Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter *pirate* or mixture of them all. [i]As read from the original box.
B1G DAVE Mining and Research Industrial Organisation Hell Hounds	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:17:00 - [53] Originally by: Dark Shikari If this is how this war is going to play out, CCP needs to put a damned limit on the number of people in a system. I'd rather have each side forced to split their fleet than the "battles" consist of repeated node crashes and attempts to get as many enemies as possible disconnected. What so defending alliance can just fill up the system with people in rookie ships and sit there all night with no danger of being attacked? Hey good plan that ;)
OneSock	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:28:00 - [54] Originally by: Virida Originally by: Dark Shikari If this is how this war is going to play out, CCP needs to put a damned limit on the number of people in a system. how? Sovereignty/Alliance War Decs. Quite simply. Defensive alliance can field 300 players, attacking alliance can WAR dec the other alliance/Soverenignty to gain a further 300 players in system. cap any other parties to 20 players max. net result is a popcap on the system of 620. All players who may be logging in and jumping in given equal priority. IMO any system of pop caps which keeps nodes up and running is better than the current systems of node crashes.
Sorela Gallente	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:30:00 - [55] I feel divided on this issue. My main fear is what this means for EvE. Putting aside the results of the battle I think the perception of it is far more dangerous. No matter how you look at it the only conclusion anyone can have is that every important battle that happens from here on out is going to screw up the exact same way. This isn't just some "bug" with the server that caused it to crash. It really seems to be a major system design wall now. They had blogs recently talking about how they were going to focus more on this but with a massive war already in the process the only feeling I can have is that they need to go into some sort of emergency mode. Putting more resources into software design to "speed things up" is very very non-trivial but I would at least like to hear that they are having some meetings and looking at ways to create some sort of hot swapping "battle fleet" node or something as a sort of hot fix to the problem.
Zixxa	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:31:00 - [56] I am sure, that node crashing was LV tactic to prevent POS killing. But LV calculation of results was invalid. So, POS is destroyed by capital fleet, LV is in panic. --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <Eagle> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake>
Dr Felonius Caldari Civilian Purposes Limited	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:40:00 - [57] Reading about this battle is amazing. The numbers involved are pretty impressive, or scary, depending on your point of view. Then I remember that I know people who skip all big battles because of the nodecrashes and killer lag. If CCP managed to convince people that all those problems were in the past, even more people would turn out for these events. It sounds to me like the devs' Need for Speed initiative is the only hope. If the best way to get rid of that shipyard was to fight simultaneous battles across the entire constellation, each individual battle would have been much closer to the level the node can handle.
Kessa Nova	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:42:00 - [58] Edited by: Kessa Nova on 16/02/2007 16:40:10 Well, well, well. Hasn't Malachon Draco changed his tune since the ASCN war? Shall we jog his memory, dear readers? "Meh, 2 minute lag here at least. Reimbursement for lag ftw I guess" "If I get reimbursed, it was a valid petition. So far I've never been refused reimbursement out of 4 BS and 1 ceptor." "Just an update, I indeed got my ship reimbursed. So even without nodecrashes, CCP is reimbursing for heavy lag. So I'd advise everyone to petition, to make sure CCP stays acutely aware of the problem and does their best to reduce the lag because like this the game is practically unplayable." From the same thread we have Evil Thug commenting: "It seems that they are reimbursing everyone now, if the node crash happened" Hmmm ..
OmegaClone	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:44:00 - [59] The Net result would have been the same because of the attacker having far superior numbers. Counting all pilots the attackers probably had 2 to 3 times teh numbers of the defenders. That said, I spent 4 hours waiting for the lag issues to clear up so that I could even jump into system. That is pretty sad from a game mechanics point of view. This game is obviously going the way of these big battles so CCP needs to rethink they way it is doing load balancing. It looks from the outside like they are only able to fragment their systems down to one system per node. They are going to have to either figure out a way to distribute one system over multiple nodes or get some bigger servers to handle 1000 on 1000 fleet battles. If that isn't going to be possible then they should rethink what they better rethink the big honking ships. Our pilots were in complete misery after sitting in a safe spot for four hours. I think the people from CCP that got the nodes reconfigured enough to support the battle but you shouldn't have to go so such pains to support a battle of this size.
Dano Sarum Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.16 16:51:00 - [60] If CCP reimburse losses they should give the attacking side has the oppertunity to inflict those losses again. ______ <Insert Sig Here>

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