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Amael Galenus
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Posted - 2007.02.18 16:43:00 -
[1]
Just wanted to suggest my idea for trying to solve the node crashing problems that are currently associated with fleet battles.
Having read what CCP are planning to do with regards to heat, why not extend the idea to fleets?
As in, if there's a large number of ships in a small area (i.e. a fleet assembling or a large gate camp), then why not make it so that the heat generated by these ships has a negative affect on the performance of all of the ships or their modules?
For example, say that each ship generates X units of heat and that if the total units of heat in a 25km sphere around a ship gets over 100, then the ship will have its efficiency reduced (the more the heat is over 100, the more the efficiency reduction).
So, if you have a gang of 10 frigates (each generating 10 units of heat) you can either attack as a 90% efficient group of 10 or, you can attack as two spaced out (but 100% efficient) groups of 5.
Ideally, (don't ask me how you'd explain it from a RP point of view) the heat generated by your enemy wouldn't affect you (so if you attack a large blob, you won't receive their heat efficiency penalty when you get close to them).
This would have several advantages:
1) It would discourage the "we need more ships" mentality- now if you bring more ships, you could possibly be giving the advantage to your opponent (i.e. a smaller number of 100% efficient ships would stand a good chance against a larger number of 60% efficient ships)
2) It would encourage a more strategic approach to fleet composition- e.g. if a BS generates the same amount of heat as 10 frigates then you'd have to decide which is going to be better for you tactically in the battle.
3) It would encourage smaller or spaced out skirmishes across a region rather than a single large scale battle in a single system.
4) It'd encourage people to carefully plan their blob so that it's as efficient as possible in terms of heat (i.e. there would be a critical number of ships after which the heat efficiency penalty would render the blob almost useless)
5) You could have numerous heat reducing/efficiency compensating modules that would add another tactical level to fleet support
Anyway, I haven't really thought about the idea- I'm sure that there are numerous problems with it (both from a concept and implementation point of view) but I think that it's worth a mention.
Discuss/flame/whatever- I've contributed my 2 cents!
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petergriffen
Amarr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.18 16:47:00 -
[2]
Heat cannot diffuse through a vacuum, afaik.
I'm working on it! |
Trhendor
Amarr
Legio Nova Invicta
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.18 17:01:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: petergriffen
Heat cannot diffuse through a vacuum, afaik.
Never heard about infrared radiaction?
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petergriffen
Amarr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.18 17:20:00 -
[4]
Yes, I have. Infrared radiation is the heat generated by light. It has to have something to heat up. Infrared radiation would keep the outside shell of a ship warm, but it wouldn't warm the space around it because there is nothing to transfer to.
I'm working on it! |
Sean Hernandez
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Posted - 2007.02.18 17:38:00 -
[5]
radiant heat loss is light - kind of...
Energy is lost in the Infrared part of the spectrum and the rate of heat loss depends on the temperature of the emitter (ships) and the temperature of the surrounding surface (in this case big black vacuum), yes I know it is not a surface, but in the physics of heat transfer it is considered as such
you seem to have an idea more along the lines of convection heat loss
to the OP
the idea has merit but I think would make larger battles impossible - and how many supernovae does a titan give out? I don't think this could be put into practice without making the servers do twice as much work 
The Damnation would get a bonus for being black too 
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Trhendor
Amarr
Legio Nova Invicta
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2007.02.18 17:48:00 -
[6]
Originally by: petergriffen
Yes, I have. Infrared radiation is the heat generated by light. It has to have something to heat up. Infrared radiation would keep the outside shell of a ship warm, but it wouldn't warm the space around it because there is nothing to transfer to.
Of course it don't warm the space but hit other ships and warm them
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Alekto Erinys
Platinum Investments
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Posted - 2007.02.18 18:25:00 -
[7]
The most difficult-to-implement part of this idea is having the server distinguish between friend and foe. If this could be solved reliably, this idea would probably be implemented. But I don't think that there is a good solution for this problem. If gangs/corps were the determining factor, people would just degang/solo-corp. There are too many easy ways to avoid the blob-penalty.
EDIT: Unless you could work out some more elegant discriminator based on who is targeting/damaging whom... that might work.
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Apophis Omega
Amarr
M'8'S
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Posted - 2007.02.18 18:40:00 -
[8]
Originally by: petergriffen
Yes, I have. Infrared radiation is the heat generated by light. It has to have something to heat up. Infrared radiation would keep the outside shell of a ship warm, but it wouldn't warm the space around it because there is nothing to transfer to.
Sounds like a great way to nerf amarr after they get a boost
Recruiting
Our website |
Elenit
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Posted - 2007.02.18 18:42:00 -
[9]
Wouldn't calculating the area of effect and the culumlative effect just cause more lag?
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Alekto Erinys
Platinum Investments
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Posted - 2007.02.18 18:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Elenit
Wouldn't calculating the area of effect and the culumlative effect just cause more lag?
Depends on how much smaller the new rules made gang sizes. The DEVs would have to do some research to find that sweet spot.
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petergriffen
Amarr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.18 19:49:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Sean Hernandez
radiant heat loss is light - kind of...
Energy is lost in the Infrared part of the spectrum and the rate of heat loss depends on the temperature of the emitter (ships) and the temperature of the surrounding surface (in this case big black vacuum), yes I know it is not a surface, but in the physics of heat transfer it is considered as such
you seem to have an idea more along the lines of convection heat loss
to the OP
the idea has merit but I think would make larger battles impossible - and how many supernovae does a titan give out? I don't think this could be put into practice without making the servers do twice as much work
The Damnation would get a bonus for being black too
No argument about infrared radiation here
But ships technically shouldn't give off their own light radiation, unless it is reflected (or it was just hit by one of my Tach II's :))
The heat transfer I'm questioning is between two ships
Is it feasible that one ship could transfer heat to another ship across a vacuum? Wouldn't that be a form of convection? The way I'm thinking is much like the way a window in your home would work. Heat diffuses to cold rather than the opposite. The vacuum space between the two panes of glass (the ships) won't allow heat from the inside to transfer to the cold on the outside (or the opposite if you're in the southern hemisphere as of this posting :)) because there is no medium to transfer across (space)
Am I correct in my thinking?
I'm working on it! |
Sean Hernandez
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Posted - 2007.02.18 20:30:00 -
[12]
Originally by: petergriffen
Originally by: Sean Hernandez
radiant heat loss is light - kind of...
etc etc etc
The Damnation would get a bonus for being black too
No argument about infrared radiation here
But ships technically shouldn't give off their own light radiation, unless it is reflected (or it was just hit by one of my Tach II's :))
The heat transfer I'm questioning is between two ships
Is it feasible that one ship could transfer heat to another ship across a vacuum? Wouldn't that be a form of convection? The way I'm thinking is much like the way a window in your home would work. Heat diffuses to cold rather than the opposite. The vacuum space between the two panes of glass (the ships) won't allow heat from the inside to transfer to the cold on the outside (or the opposite if you're in the southern hemisphere as of this posting :)) because there is no medium to transfer across (space)
Am I correct in my thinking?
Sorry peter but your idea of heat transfer is not quite right. You have mixed the other kinds of heat transfer, i.e. conduction and convection, with radiant heat transfer. They require some kind of medium to allow the energy to move. Radiation can take place in a vacuum - that's why you swines in the southern hemisphere get all the heat from the sun 
Might be a good idea to read a bit about it 
will let you fire those Tach IIs with pride
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petergriffen
Amarr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.02.18 21:19:00 -
[13]
I think you're missing what I'm saying...
Lets say an Apoc is sitting next to a Crusader
Apoc fires it's Tachyon laser (PEEEEEEEEEWWWWW!!!!) <---- definitely necessary 
The heat generated from the tachyon shouldn't transfer to the hull of the Crusader, because there's no way for it to transfer. The energy isn't being emitted as light radiation. Think on terms of a space heater. The heater warms the air around it, as with anything that generates it's own heat. If there's no air around the object to be heated, the heat cannot be transferred in this manner. Radiation from a celestial object like the sun is different, because it's releasing visible light, radio waves... all kinds of fun stuff. So yeah, I can see infrared rays or gamma rays or ray charles heating the hull of any ship in sight, but I don't think two objects in close proximity can transfer heat in the same way... Can they?
Perhaps I do need to do some research on the subject.
I'll post later with my findings :)
I'm working on it! |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.02.18 21:49:00 -
[14]
Originally by: petergriffen
Think on terms of a space heater. The heater warms the air around it, as with anything that generates it's own heat. If there's no air around the object to be heated, the heat cannot be transferred in this manner.
Every object emits some sort of emission and the hotter the object is, the smaller the wavelength of the emission(Wien's law and Planck's law). Hot objects like the sun have their peak wavelength in the visible spectrum, therefore we can see the sunlight. Other objects are not that hot and the peak of their emissions are in the infrared spectrum, that is what we can feel as warm.
It needs no medium to transfer thermal energy.
A different type of thermal energy transportation is convection. Here a medium transports the energy. For example air warms up over a heater and transports away the energy from the heater. But if the heater would be in the vacuum then there would be still a thermal transfer, simply via radiation.
The idea of the op about the heat blob causing problems for the ship is a nice idea. However I think it would cause a lot more lag. Because you need to calculate for every ship the amount of heat it emits and then you need for every ship to how much heat it recieves from all the other ships. Since all the ships are moving around you would constantly need to recalculate the amount of heat, lots of cpu and io necessary for that.
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