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Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.02.18 23:34:00 -
[1]
I like reading battlereports from the great war(s) that is raging right now between the two big power blocs...
But while I was reading, I started wondering...does this war really destroy assets? Or is the sum of looted and salvaged things added with the insurance payments made of thin air in the end just about that what got destroyed in all these engagements?
And that question led me to the thought...
Should war not mean dedication of assets that you risk to lose which in return should make you consider whether to wage war or not in the first place?
I have a growing feeling that the insurance system - now added with the new player ship salvage tends toward not taking any ISK out of the game really but just recylce itself again and again...This somehow doesn't taste right.
Ship insurance for T1 Battleships, dreads and carriers pays for the production costs when you have the BPOs...modules looted and parts salvaged might make up what in turn gets destroyed in modules when ships blow up...the salvage parts may even pay for parts of the ship insurance you paid initially...
So all in all...maybe 20 million are really taken out of the game for each destroyed battleship, 200 million for each carrier and dread...
Not at all that much for any capital ship pilot really, it just takes a little time to buy the minerals again and replace the ships...
I'm not saying that this is a really bad thing like it is...I just think war should be feeling a little more serious than just hurt egos and pocketchange...
(Of course single players might lose a lot in a war but in the end equation its not much being really destroyed with the insurances paid and the ships salvaged)
Just some thought as I read the battlereports...
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Malthros Zenobia
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2007.02.18 23:40:00 -
[2]
Yes, war destroys assets. It's simply not possible for two sides to wipe out each other's fleets and infrastructure, and have the end result be profit made for both sides.
Hell both sides generally have a large deficit, which they can hope to make back via whatever spoils they took, such as space.
 Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Jangus McGee
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.02.18 23:42:00 -
[3]
I'd say a blown up Titan speaks for itself.
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Siege
Minmatar
Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
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Posted - 2007.02.18 23:58:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Siege on 18/02/2007 23:57:35
It very much destroys assets, and in large numbers. For instance, in any given ship kill you can expect around 50% of the fitted modules and cargo to be destroyed at minimum. These items are non-insurable, and are lost.
Ship losses tend to loose some isk, though depending on the type and who built the ship it may
not be much. Insurance usually comes close to covering the material cost of the ship, so while a T2 pilot may lose a LOT of isk... the value of stuff taken out of the game isn't that much.
When you get to POS's, you have to figure in the strontium now being burned as well as the extra fuel costs that come into play when folks start spamming towers. Lost towers and modules aren't insurable. So this is all a full removal from the game.
Then also figure in the ammo being used. Ammo consumption is always there, but when POS warfare gets involved it definitely goes up for the involved players. More fights, bigger fights, longer fights. Capital torps and turrets come into play in huge numbers, bigger fleets smashing into each other burning more of the larger ammunition sizes. Cap boosters being used. Drones and fighters get popped. Interdictor bubbles, popping warp bubbles, probes. There are a lot of consumables being used in huge numbers.
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EPSILON DELTA
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: EPSILON DELTA on 18/02/2007 23:59:06
losing war costs time, money, territory(=money), position.
modules are not insured
losing a cap ship means a bil in loses from uninsurable modules, the time it took to build them, the POS or station it's protecting, the ability to build more, the life of your corp, the life of your alliance, etc.
Just as those alliances that faded into history, and see if war costed them anything.\
oh and its not "just a simple matter of buying the minerals and rebuild the ship", try shipping them to POS (speaking about MS and Titans), which takes a lot of man power, as well as the time it takes to build them, and the protection of those POS that's building them.
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Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it? |
Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:04:00 -
[6]
Consumables are just consumables though, rather cheapish, expendable...not really considered in equations, are they?
As for POS' thats a point...
Though the real combat is ship versus ship fleet engagements...and those really only lose the modules (many alliances produce their own T2 ships at mineral costs so only theoretically lose isk they could have had if they sold the ships in empire) ...and the module losses are being countered by the salvage parts...
Not much of an asset reduction I can see there in the end.
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Siege
Minmatar
Siegecraft Bounty Hunting
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:07:00 -
[7]
Well, ships and ammo are all made from the same materials. And those materials are being removed from the universe. So while it's a small portion, it is a real loss.
The rigs/salvage... those are probably a wash. Rigs are made from salvage, and it takes a lot to make a rig. And rigs are lost with the ship, non insureable.
Then figure the pod-losses as well. Nobody gains anything, but the killed pod costs a fair amount of isk to replace the clone plus the implants lost.
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:31:00 -
[8]
Modules, T2 whoring and inflation = pricey war, especially for the grunts.
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Hekaton Keirez
Axe Gang
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:38:00 -
[9]
War is expensive, bottom line.
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Aram Gishno
Caldari
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Aram Gishno on 19/02/2007 00:40:09
No. As opposed to other wars, the only thing truly lost in a Eve-Online war is dignity. And I giveth thee Plato;
Originally by: Plato
Only the dead have seen the end of the war.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 00:45:00 -
[11]
Aside from ships and modules, as other people have mentioned, theres also the loss of POS's (uninsurable), T2 ships (uninsurable), and more importantly, the loss of ability to make money. If I'm involved in PvP 100% of my logged in time, where exactly is my omney coming from? No ratting, mining or manufacturing = no money.
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Originally by: Constantine Arcanum
most problems can be solved with chloroform.
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Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tough Guys Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.19 01:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Patch86
Aside from ships and modules, as other people have mentioned, theres also the loss of POS's (uninsurable), T2 ships (uninsurable), and more importantly, the loss of ability to make money. If I'm involved in PvP 100% of my logged in time, where exactly is my omney coming from? No ratting, mining or manufacturing = no money.
If you're not making money pvping then you're doing something wrong.
Heinrich Klaus: "You need to get a leet signature you****got" |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.02.19 01:32:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 19/02/2007 01:31:54
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
If you're not making money pvping then you're doing something wrong.
If two groups of similar strength fight eachother, then both lose something. With tech-2 fitting a lot more. My last hurricane loss was like 90 mil, although it was insured.
Meaning my wallet was 90 mil isk lower, when I had a newly fitted and insured battlecruiser in my hangar.
To live from pvp you need to win a lot more fights than you lose, so avoid 50/50 fights ... or gank people with nice fittings from time to time to cover the losses in fleet pvp.
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I came, I read, I lol'ed. |
Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.02.19 02:46:00 -
[14]
War destroys assets.
The biggest loss of assets is probably in T2-fitted fleet battleships.
A generic setup costs around 100m for guns, 20m for other fittings, 100m for the ship, and 30m for insurance.
That's about 250m. Insurance pays out 100m. About 60m in loot drops. So 90m in raw wealth/value (not ISK) is destroyed.
In a generic fleet battle, 100 of these BS might be turned into rubbish. That's 9b in one battle, even if no capitals are blown up.
EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard |
Siri Blue
Gallente
Duvolle Laboratories Blue Division
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Posted - 2007.02.19 15:13:00 -
[15]
Are the ISK and assets really being destroyed?
No.
The T2 price gougher has your money. You don't have it, your alliance doesn't have it but its still in the game.
And the ships and modules did cost the T2 producer not more than the platinum insurance and the salvage parts pay out.
I don't see my point dismissed yet.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.19 15:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Siri Blue
Are the ISK and assets really being destroyed?
No.
The T2 price gougher has your money. You don't have it, your alliance doesn't have it but its still in the game.
And the ships and modules did cost the T2 producer not more than the platinum insurance and the salvage parts pay out.
I don't see my point dismissed yet.
You might be asking a different question to what we've all answered.
If you mean "is war in EVE an isk sink?" then no, it is not. You are quite right in thinking that actual currency is only created by war (through the faucet of insurance) and the only thing that is actually "destroyed" (i.e., removed from tranquillity) is player made stuffs, for which someone was paid. And indeed, when I buy my new ship and modules after a death, someone is going to make money from it.
If, however, you mean "does war cause the involved parties to lose wealth?" then the answer is yes. Simple matter of fact, if you lose several fleet battles, your alliance is going to be out of pocket. Most of the dropped modules are destroyed without a trace, those that are left end up in the hands of your enemy, and insurance barely covers the replacement cost for the ship itself (and nowhere close in terms of T2 ships).
So two answers, depending on what you're asking 
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Originally by: Constantine Arcanum
most problems can be solved with chloroform.
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