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Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
11
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Posted - 2016.04.25 23:44:23 -
[1] - Quote
When we take this type of BSs in a 5+ pilots fleet we always expect to face DPS that no active tank ship will handle without remote reps. So this bonus is totally useless for Tec1 BSs in fleets.
Someone probably will say - hold on, what about solo pvp. Lets just remember what people think when they see Hyperion flying solo. "it has two reps, we need DPS or neuts". Or Deimos.. "it tanks a lot we need DPS or neuts". Ships with this bonus are too predictable in solo and totally useless in fleets. So amarr & caldari have 3 fleet BS lines while gallente & minmatar only 2.
What about replacing this bonus with 7.5% (or other number) armor/shield ammount, so it will look good in line with amarr/caldari BSs with 4% resist bonus. I'd rather replace this bonus on all subcapital ships except Marauders, as they mostly used in PVE. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3213
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:14:58 -
[2] - Quote
You don't need to change the hyp when you can use a mega or domi for larger group pvp.
The hyp's uses maybe few, but its good at things like PVE and small gang because of the rep bonus. -1
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4374
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:16:53 -
[3] - Quote
No, all four races should not have the same tank bonuses. |
Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
11
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:26:14 -
[4] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:No, all four races should not have the same tank bonuses.
thats what i'm talking. don't do same. one race have resist other have hp ammount. or you think it is same?
maybe people do not understand why fleet ship needs big HP buffer. it is simple. when 30 BSs shootingh megathron they hawe like 150 000 damage in one strike and just instapop it. So you really need a big buffer. now amarr and caldari races have such type of ships and gallente/minmatar have solo ships instead. not cool, dude.. You mean one race should have usefull bonuses and other race should not? Or what.. |
Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
11
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:29:16 -
[5] - Quote
i really prefer mega or domi for solo, cos i will always have less blob on my head, as if i fly in hyper |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3213
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:32:46 -
[6] - Quote
Good thing fleet pvp is not the only way to play the game then.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
11
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:35:26 -
[7] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Good thing fleet pvp is not the only way to play the game then. untill you start living in 0.0 |
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4374
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:41:51 -
[8] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Danika Princip wrote:No, all four races should not have the same tank bonuses. thats what i'm talking. don't do same. one race have resist other have hp ammount. or you think it is same? maybe people do not understand why fleet ship needs big HP buffer. it is simple. when 30 BSs shootingh megathron they hawe like 150 000 damage in one strike and just instapop it. So you really need a big buffer. now amarr and caldari races have such type of ships and gallente/minmatar have solo ships instead. not cool, dude.. You mean one race should have usefull bonuses and other race should not? Or what..
Well, considering the fact I've flown more Minmatar battleship doctrines than any other over the years (Maelstroms, Tempests, TFIs twice, machs if you want to count those, and a typhoon fleet that never actually saw any use. Alphafleet, heavy welpfleet, techfleet, baltecfleet and yachtfleet to give them the names), I'd say you're flat out wrong there.
Oddly enough, the second most used race in my experience has been Gallente, with megas twice, domis and vindis. (baltec and grindrfleets, domifleet and yachtfleet again if you want our cool names for those too)
Nobody uses battleship doctrines anymore though. |
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
94
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Posted - 2016.04.26 00:50:31 -
[9] - Quote
Okay then, what's your idea? All you've said is that it as a bonus is useless.
So here's something to discuss, what if all armor rep bonuses applied to local and remote reps? Initially it's far too powerful without a drawback. Local tank has the drawback of using your cap and requiring a cap booster or two. If anyone can think of a decent trade off for this bonus that would make it useful in both fleet and solo areas it might work. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3213
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Posted - 2016.04.26 03:52:15 -
[10] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Good thing fleet pvp is not the only way to play the game then. untill you start living in 0.0
And? You realise the vast VAST majority of the playerbase is not in null right? Why does the hyp need to change because its bonus doesn't work well in fleet fights? An especially good question when you have alternatives that do work very well in null and use the exact same skills in the mega and domi?
Also noteworthy is that the two ships you believe have good bonuses for fleet fights (the rokh and baddon) don't actually see much use in fleet fights...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Wimzy Chent-Shi
Unkindness Incorporated Who Dares Wins.
58
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:49:02 -
[11] - Quote
Hyp is one of the top choices for solo pvp, yes the bonus is a shame for fleet use but no one forces you to use it. GID GUD Raw HP bonus is nice for catching reps in time, but still worse choice when compared to ressist bonus.
Make a newbro foundation started @ here
Let us help those newbros that can not PLEX themselves.
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2296
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Posted - 2016.04.26 10:50:56 -
[12] - Quote
We use the hype all the time in wh gangs so it's not useless.
This seems to be a case of"it's useless to my play style so our must be changed"
Citadel worm hole tax
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Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
115
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Posted - 2016.04.26 16:04:01 -
[13] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Nobody uses battleship doctrines anymore though. My first thought reading the OP was "who uses BS doctrine these days???" |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2464
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Posted - 2016.04.26 17:52:25 -
[14] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Someone probably will say - hold on, what about solo pvp. Lets just remember what people think when they see Hyperion flying solo. "it has two reps, we need DPS or neuts". Or Deimos.. "it tanks a lot we need DPS or neuts". Ships with this bonus are too predictable in solo and totally useless in fleets. So amarr & caldari have 3 fleet BS lines while gallente & minmatar only 2. The fact that Hyperions still kill a lot of ships when flown by capable pilots shows that they are not predictable and can outmaneuver suspecting and unsuspecting targets just fine. There is furthermore no problem with them being useless in fleets. Your argument about Amarr and Caldari having 3 instead of 2 fleet ships is flawed because Amarr has 2 Laser and 1 Drone boat and Caldari have 2 Missile and 1 Hybrid turret boat, or in other words 2 different kind of fleet ships just like Gallente (which have the Hybrid Megathron and the Drone Dominix). Despite the bonus, Maelstroms work just fine in fleets, and the Hyperion does not need to be a fleet ship.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
345
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Posted - 2016.04.26 19:52:25 -
[15] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:When we take this type of BSs in a 5+ pilots fleet we always expect to face DPS that no active tank ship will handle without remote reps. So this bonus is totally useless for Tec1 BSs in fleets.
Someone probably will say - hold on, what about solo pvp. Lets just remember what people think when they see Hyperion flying solo. "it has two reps, we need DPS or neuts". Or Deimos.. "it tanks a lot we need DPS or neuts". Ships with this bonus are too predictable in solo and totally useless in fleets. So amarr & caldari have 3 fleet BS lines while gallente & minmatar only 2.
What about replacing this bonus with 7.5% (or other number) armor/shield ammount, so it will look good in line with amarr/caldari BSs with 4% resist bonus. I'd rather replace this bonus on all subcapital ships except Marauders, as they mostly used in PVE.
here a hint, not all ships are made for 1 type of pvp, you should learn to take ships in that is based on your pvp style and not try to kill anothers pvp/pve style as they use the same boat in a different way..
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
175
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Posted - 2016.04.26 21:18:54 -
[16] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Good thing fleet pvp is not the only way to play the game then. untill you start living in 0.0
So now we're massively reworking an entire ship class for a minority of the game's playerbase? You do know that over 85% of people don't live in null, right? |
Lucy Callagan
V0LTA WE FORM V0LTA
174
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Posted - 2016.04.26 21:41:25 -
[17] - Quote
It's not because you don't know how to fit a ship / choose the right hull, that things need to be changed
Frugu.net
a¦á_a¦¦a¦â
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Lugh Crow-Slave
2312
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Posted - 2016.04.26 21:47:24 -
[18] - Quote
Isaac Armer wrote:Teddy KGB wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Good thing fleet pvp is not the only way to play the game then. untill you start living in 0.0 So now we're massively reworking an entire ship class for a minority of the game's playerbase? You do know that over 85% of people don't live in null, right?
not to mention last i looked there was still small gang and solo pvp in 0.0
Citadel worm hole tax
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Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
13
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Posted - 2016.04.30 13:35:21 -
[19] - Quote
Lucy Callagan wrote:It's not because you don't know how to fit a ship / choose the right hull, that things need to be changed. Quote:Someone probably will say - hold on, what about solo pvp. Lets just remember what people think when they see Hyperion flying solo. "it has two reps, we need DPS or neuts". Or Deimos.. "it tanks a lot we need DPS or neuts". This quote shows (in addition to your kb) that you obviously don't understand solo pvp. Of course people are always going to bring the direct counter to your ship. "Hugh, that guy is flying a phantasm, lets bring 2 huggins". "hey the intel shows a nomen going around, undock the hics!". This is why you need to force fights and not just sit and wait for your "fair and honest opponents" to come welp ships to you.
if you wana check up my solo pvp skills you should probably check stats for characters i've sold for example andy maque & maque |
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 13:40:11 -
[20] - Quote
Not all ships need to be balanced against one another in every scenario. You pick the ship for the purpose.
Ships with local repair bonuses are meant to use local reps for small gang pvp and not fleet pvp which is why their bonuses doesn't scale with the number of fleet members and opponents.
By comparison ships with resistance bonuses scale both with the number of people on your side as the number of enemies.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
13
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Posted - 2016.04.30 14:22:04 -
[21] - Quote
Then tell me why all maradeurs have rep bonuses? lets make them all different huh? also you maybe noticed i do not suggest make same bonus, hp and resist bonus are totally different stuff. all i'm saying is that all factions must be balanced between each other. You and me just have a different views. Probably you choice of vessel is based on the situation, while i am playing only gallente ships for 10 years. I think that my point of view just makes me meticulous in quastion of balance. Abbadon can be used in solo & in fleet / Hyperion can be used in solo & not in fleet. It is called disbalance.
GÇ£Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).GÇ¥ GÇò Mark Twain |
Angelique Duchemin
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
980
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Posted - 2016.04.30 14:26:34 -
[22] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Then tell me why all maradeurs have rep bonuses? lets make them all different huh? also you maybe noticed i do not suggest make same bonus, hp and resist bonus are totally different stuff. all i'm saying is that all factions must be balanced between each other. You and me just have a different views. Probably you choice of vessel is based on the situation, while i am playing only gallente ships for 10 years. I think that my point of view just makes me meticulous in quasti
Because Marauders are 100% PVE ships and in PVE you use active tanks. Also the Gallente and Amarr Marauders are pretty terrible at that.
You might as well ask why all the explorer frigates have bonuses to scanning.
If you think the Abbadon is superior to the Hyperion then you don't demand for a buff to the Hyperion. You just fly the Abbadon instead. The Hyperion does not lack for uses. Just not the uses you need it for.
Playing "only Gallente" is dumb because that's not how Eve works. You pick a ship for the task regardless of race. You are free to roleplay some Gallente loyalist but the games balance will not conform to you.
The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.
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Teddy KGB
Crushing Power of Gallente Galaxy Spiritus
13
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Posted - 2016.04.30 15:01:51 -
[23] - Quote
"You might as well ask why all the explorer frigates have bonuses to scanning." - Yes, why?
You know, for 10 years i never faced a problem to pick up a ship of gallentian line to kill any target i've met. so what you say is wrong. what most people do is just picking the counter ship without savvy.. And this game is made just 180-¦ of what you just said. |
James Zimmer
Spooky Scary Militants DropBear Sanctuary
43
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Posted - 2016.04.30 16:51:32 -
[24] - Quote
I agree with the OP to a degree, but I don't think the issue is the bonuses, I think the issue is that battleship active tanking is pretty bad. I can take a T2 fit T1 BC and pretty easily run level 4 missions, not so with a T2 fit battleship. I can't mitigate the damage with sig/speed tanking like I can with a battlecruiser, and the greatter rep power doesn't make up the difference, not to mention the extremely high cap use of some of the modules. In PvP, the poor active tanking means that the threshold for bringing dedicated logisitcs is low. Even at as few as 5-6 ships, a good argument can be made to trade 2 DPS ships for dedicated logistics. If active reps were better, a strong argument could be made for a larger fleet size before bringing dedicated logi. In the end, I would like to see modest boosts in rep amount and less cap use for battleship-sized active reps, and possibly adjust Marauder bonuses to compensate. |
Daichi Yamato
Xero Security and Technologies
3225
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Posted - 2016.04.30 20:56:59 -
[25] - Quote
James Zimmer wrote: I can take a T2 fit T1 BC and pretty easily run level 4 missions, not so with a T2 fit battleship. I can't mitigate the damage with sig/speed tanking like I can with a battlecruiser, and the greatter rep power doesn't make up the difference, not to mention the extremely high cap use of some of the modules.
I can only suggest you are doing something wrong there...
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2798
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:41:02 -
[26] - Quote
James Zimmer wrote:I agree with the OP to a degree, but I don't think the issue is the bonuses, I think the issue is that battleship active tanking is pretty bad. I can take a T2 fit T1 BC and pretty easily run level 4 missions, not so with a T2 fit battleship. I can't mitigate the damage with sig/speed tanking like I can with a battlecruiser, and the greatter rep power doesn't make up the difference, not to mention the extremely high cap use of some of the modules. In PvP, the poor active tanking means that the threshold for bringing dedicated logisitcs is low. Even at as few as 5-6 ships, a good argument can be made to trade 2 DPS ships for dedicated logistics. If active reps were better, a strong argument could be made for a larger fleet size before bringing dedicated logi. In the end, I would like to see modest boosts in rep amount and less cap use for battleship-sized active reps, and possibly adjust Marauder bonuses to compensate.
If you can't do lvl 4 with battleships, you are doing something really wrong. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
2798
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:47:37 -
[27] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Then tell me why all maradeurs have rep bonuses? lets make them all different huh? also you maybe noticed i do not suggest make same bonus, hp and resist bonus are totally different stuff. all i'm saying is that all factions must be balanced between each other. You and me just have a different views. Probably you choice of vessel is based on the situation, while i am playing only gallente ships for 10 years. I think that my point of view just makes me meticulous in quastion of balance. Abbadon can be used in solo & in fleet / Hyperion can be used in solo & not in fleet. It is called disbalance.
GÇ£Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to reform (or pause and reflect).GÇ¥ GÇò Mark Twain Marauder all have rep bonus because it fit thematically with the design goal of the ship class. They are supposed to be ship that thrive for themselves alone. A rep bonus is much better for that than a resist one for example because you will have to repair yourself at some point.
The reason you ave issue about the balance of some ships is exactly because you limit yourself to playing galente only. Every races you could chose to only go down their lines would face issue like that. The Abbadon for all the good bonus for fleet work you think it has still does not get used because it's not a good ship overall. Races are not supposed to be identical and that's why you can spot difference in their line up if you look for it. It's designed that way so player have a bigger total amount of choice if they choose to enable those choice. You decided you would limit yourself to one race so the issue is all on your side. |
Rivr Luzade
Kenshin. DARKNESS.
2478
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:48:38 -
[28] - Quote
Teddy KGB wrote:Abbadon can be used in solo & in fleet / Hyperion can be used in solo & not in fleet. It is called disbalance. An Abaddon in solo PVP? A ship that has no tracking bonuses, only room for one flight of medium drones and 4 mids out of which 2 are always taken for prop and cap booster to keep the guns running and a second cap booster to keep a rep runnin. The Abaddon has always been a great choice for solo PVP. Unlike the Hyperion.
UI Improvement Collective
My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
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James Zimmer
Spooky Scary Militants DropBear Sanctuary
43
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Posted - 2016.04.30 22:06:01 -
[29] - Quote
To those complaining about me not being able to do level 4s (and I should include sites, since I do those more than missions) in battleships, let me clarify: I can do level 4s in an omni-tank Prophecy easily even if I mess up aggro/spawn orders or the mission is extra-hard (like Epic Arcs or Worlds Collide). I can also run them easily (and quickly) with a Nightmare with a couple shiny modules. I tried to run a site in a dual-rep armor Typhoon (over 600 DPS omni-tank) and got forced out due to messing up the spawn order, I did the same site in a Prophecy, messed up the spawn order again, and completed it easily.
The issue is that while large armor reps have double the repair power of medium reps, the ship is likely to take much more than double the damage, because it will be taking effective battleship damage, which is much higher than everything else in the room combined for most missions. |
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