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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.19 22:31:00 -
[1]
CCP hinted that they might consider a Tier 2 nonSiege Dreadnought that was more adept at traditional combat roles.
Initial Suggestion:
Amarr 8/5/8 [8 turrets/2 Launchers] Caldari 8/8/5 [6 Turrets/6 Launchers] Gallente 8/6/7 [7 Turrets/2 Launchers] Matari 8/7/6 [7 Turrets/3 Launchers]
Amarr - 5% XLaser Damage and 10% Less cap need per level Caldari - 10% XL Hybrid Optimal Range and 5% Citadel RoF per level Gallente - 5% XL Hybrid Damage and 7.5% Hybrid tracking per level Matari - 5% XL Projectile Damage and 5% XL Projectile Rof per level
They would have Jump Drives, but no other Capital Abilities. They couldn't use stargates or go to hi sec. No EW or Gang Immunities or Bonuses. They are essentially Capital BSes.
My only real demand is that the Minmatar one follows the Hurricane's design philosphy _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Baherroth
Gallente Black Lance
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Posted - 2007.02.20 17:53:00 -
[2]
aslong as they cant use Siege Modules, Clone Vat Bays, Doomsday Devices, Jump Bridge Portals, and have either double or triple hp of a dread, sounds like a decent ship, that could be around same price as a dread or more - like 4-6bill, sounds like a capital anti-capital ship, that isnt invulnerable, so it isnt overpowered, i like your idea :P
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.20 19:44:00 -
[3]
Yep, that is the basic gist of it. I'm sure they could kill smaller ships with drones, but they are definately not ships to fly solo. But yeah, they can't do anything special other than Jump Drive...think of them as Battlecruisers in Homeworld 2, just big damage dealers that take hits too. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.20 19:50:00 -
[4]
I don't get it. No seige mode, so they can't tank as hard as current dreads or match their damage output, but capital turrets, so they can't hit little ships with their main weapons. Why not just bring a carrier?
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.20 19:58:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader I don't get it. No seige mode, so they can't tank as hard as current dreads or match their damage output, but capital turrets, so they can't hit little ships with their main weapons. Why not just bring a carrier?
Juggernauts would have more battlefield damage output and be far more situation adaptable, Dreads are only good at taking out stationary or near stationary targets in siege mode.
Carriers are okay, but Fighters arent exactly hard to kill. And I for one would rather use guns anyway. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.20 20:36:00 -
[6]
Eight turrets, more "battlefield damage", twice or thrice a Dread's HP? Either the lack of seige mode will make it inferior to a dread in terms of range, tracking, damage and tanking, or the many high slots and HP boost will make it superior to a dread in all those categories, so it'll either fail to find a role in fleet combat or it'll replace the dread at seiges.
How can it be balanced to fill a useful role?
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.20 22:24:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Eight turrets, more "battlefield damage", twice or thrice a Dread's HP? Either the lack of seige mode will make it inferior to a dread in terms of range, tracking, damage and tanking, or the many high slots and HP boost will make it superior to a dread in all those categories, so it'll either fail to find a role in fleet combat or it'll replace the dread at seiges.
How can it be balanced to fill a useful role?
Siege mode does not affect range, it greatly nerfs tracking, buff damage (but to only 3 or 4 weapon hardpoints), and buffs repairers/boosters.
In short, Juggernauts will do more than twice as much damage in battlefield scenarios, but less than half in siege scenarios. Tanking will last longer on a Juggernaut, but a Siege Dread will still do it more efficiently.
CCP originally said Dreads were going to be the pinnacle of fleet combat...well they aren't. But they are still needed for territory control. Juggernauts would better fill out a Capital Fleet though unless Sieging. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Reggie Stoneloader
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.21 02:26:00 -
[8]
Yes, that sounds good. I'd rather not see them require more skillpoints than a Dread, though, and I agree that they shouldn't have fancy superpowers like Motherships and Titans enjoy. Just a straight up alternative, like the difference between a Maller and an Omen. Same skills, different ships.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.21 06:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Yes, that sounds good. I'd rather not see them require more skillpoints than a Dread, though, and I agree that they shouldn't have fancy superpowers like Motherships and Titans enjoy. Just a straight up alternative, like the difference between a Maller and an Omen. Same skills, different ships.
As far as this idea is concerned, these would be Tier 2 Dreads. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.21 08:52:00 -
[10]
The first one is ready for digestion:
Minmatar
Capital Ships lvl II Minmatar Dreadnought lvl II Jump Drive Operation lvl II
Not much different than Naglfar's
Jormungand - 8/7/6 [7 Turret/3 Launcher]
5% Capital Projectile RoF 5% Capital Projectile Dmg
CPU: 900 Powergrid: 750000 Shield: 200000 Armor: 200000 Hull: 200000 Cap: 50000 Max Velocity: 85 m/s
Sig Radius: 900 m
Targeting Range: 92.5 km Scan Res: 60 mm Dronebay: 250 m3 Cargobay: 15000 m3 Sensor: 42 LADAR Max Jump Range: 7.5 ly
Base cost: 3 BN ISK (compared to Naglfar at 1.5) _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Bienurdau Hywoaf
Minmatar Matari Holo News Network
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Posted - 2007.02.21 09:16:00 -
[11]
This seems like a good idea :)
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.21 10:00:00 -
[12]
And now for Amarr:
Progenitor - 8/5/8 [8 Turret/2 Launcher]
10% Capital Laser Cap Use 5% Capital Laser Dmg
CPU: 840 Powergrid: 900000 Shield: 120000 Armor: 240000 Hull: 240000 Cap: 65000 Max Velocity: 65 m/s
Sig Radius: 1000 m
Targeting Range: 97.5 km Scan Res: 55 mm Dronebay: 300 m3 Cargobay: 9000 m3 Sensor: 44 RADAR Max Jump Range: 7.5 ly
Note exact stats may or may not be spot on as I haven't done any rigorous Theoryfitting. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.21 10:41:00 -
[13]
Caldari:
Thunderbird - 8/8/5 [6 Turret/6 Launcher]
10% Capital Hybrid Optimal Range 5% Citadel RoF
CPU: 1000 Powergrid: 600000 Shield: 240000 Armor: 120000 Hull: 240000 Cap: 52000 Max Velocity: 60 m/s
Sig Radius: 1100 m
Targeting Range: 115 km Scan Res: 45 mm Dronebay: 200 m3 Cargobay: 12000 m3 Sensor: 51 Gravimetric Max Jump Range: 7.5 ly
The name is actually that of a real (well mythological) bird, not just a Ford. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.21 10:56:00 -
[14]
And last but not least, Gallente:
Duat - 8/6/7 [7 Turret/2 Launcher]
5% Capital Hybrid Dmg 10% Capital Hybrid Tracking
CPU: 940 Powergrid: 750000 Shield: 180000 Armor: 210000 Hull: 210000 Cap: 60000 Max Velocity: 70 m/s
Sig Radius: 1035 m
Targeting Range: 115 km Scan Res: 45 mm Dronebay: 600 m3 Cargobay: 12000 m3 Sensor: 47 Magnetometric Max Jump Range: 7.5 ly _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.22 02:54:00 -
[15]
So its unanimous? Juggernauts are a good idea as proffered here?
Now we just need yella bars to comment. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.22 03:50:00 -
[16]
good idea another mini cap ship will alos be useful for the new level 5 thro 7 missions
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Void Spiders Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2007.02.22 03:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Thor Xian So its unanimous? Juggernauts are a good idea as proffered here?
Now we just need yella bars to comment.
Looks good, except for one thing. the Gallente one getting a 10% tracking bonus. Right now standard tracking bonuses are 7.5% per level, only destroyers have a 10% tracking bonus(because when tracking bonuses got boosted they already had 7.5%). Crystal-Slave, that way? Potential solution to the current Recon cloak and cyno bug |
Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.22 08:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Originally by: Thor Xian So its unanimous? Juggernauts are a good idea as proffered here?
Now we just need yella bars to comment.
Looks good, except for one thing. the Gallente one getting a 10% tracking bonus. Right now standard tracking bonuses are 7.5% per level, only destroyers have a 10% tracking bonus(because when tracking bonuses got boosted they already had 7.5%).
True, I spose for continuity purposes it should be 7.5%. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Twilight Dragon
Gallente The Nine Gates Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.02.22 18:56:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Twilight Dragon on 22/02/2007 18:53:30 Totally awesome idea...although maybe they could work on the gallente name some, but anyway awesome ships.
Heh, if they come out with these I'll stop the carrier training... P.S. maybe put something in like the moros drone bonus on the gallente.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.22 19:51:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Twilight Dragon Edited by: Twilight Dragon on 22/02/2007 18:53:30 Totally awesome idea...although maybe they could work on the gallente name some, but anyway awesome ships.
Heh, if they come out with these I'll stop the carrier training... P.S. maybe put something in like the moros drone bonus on the gallente.
I think a Capital Blastership is more appropriate than another Capital Droneboat.
As for the name, it essentially means the same thing as Erebus. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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AngeBlade
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Posted - 2007.02.22 21:10:00 -
[21]
the only thing i would complain about is that Caldari pilots are missile users....they are not going to train hybrids up to use them. I would just change the bonuses on the Caldari jug. Other than that I really like the idea. I do have a question though. When you say they can use jump drives, what do you exactly mean? could these craft go into higher sec space and basically become a beefed up battleship? Also, this might be just me, but i would like to see these ships as battleship killers. Maybe make a mod to help all the other races with tracking, to hit Battleships and maybe Battlecruisers. Kinda like how a BS is with battlecruiser and Dec/cruisers. Just a thought.
Cool idea in all. I think this would be awesome if they added this ships to the game. I even like the names you came up with. My one request would to make the ships look cool.
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.22 22:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: AngeBlade the only thing i would complain about is that Caldari pilots are missile users....they are not going to train hybrids up to use them.
This is incorrect, infact I'd bet more Caldari Capital Pilots would rather use guns. So I elected to give them the option to go either way or even both.
Quote: When you say they can use jump drives, what do you exactly mean? could these craft go into higher sec space and basically become a beefed up battleship?
All Capitals have Jump Drives (Freighters excluded) and cannot use Stargates. Jump Drives need Cyno Fields to lock on to a system, which cannot be done to high sec.
Quote: Also, this might be just me, but i would like to see these ships as battleship killers. Maybe make a mod to help all the other races with tracking, to hit Battleships and maybe Battlecruisers. Kinda like how a BS is with battlecruiser and Dec/cruisers. Just a thought.
I think that goes without saying, they would rule the Battlefield, BSes are actually Heavy Cruisers in the big picture now.
Quote: Cool idea in all. I think this would be awesome if they added this ships to the game. I even like the names you came up with. My one request would to make the ships look cool.
Thanks, yeah if they looked good that would rock. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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50freefly
Caldari Purify Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:33:00 -
[23]
I think that this would be the perfect addition to the game... Make them BIG, along with the rest of the capital ships (resize them basically, they are not NEARLY big enough atm).
Duat and Thunderbird don't sound very good, give them better names... =)
Oh, and these things WILL need a bonus to tanking if they can't use seige mode, they will be very very easily popped otherwise.
I know I'd train for one!
Originally by: Eight Ace For reasons that have been lost in the mists of time all caldari ships are designed by two people. One does the left hand side and the other does the right.
And they never meet.
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Alyth
Gallente Battle Tech Phobos Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:36:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Thor Xian
Siege mode does not affect range, it greatly nerfs tracking, buff damage (but to only 3 or 4 weapon hardpoints), and buffs repairers/boosters.
In short, Juggernauts will do more than twice as much damage in battlefield scenarios, but less than half in siege scenarios. Tanking will last longer on a Juggernaut, but a Siege Dread will still do it more efficiently.
CCP originally said Dreads were going to be the pinnacle of fleet combat...well they aren't. But they are still needed for territory control. Juggernauts would better fill out a Capital Fleet though unless Sieging.
There's just one flaw in that reasoning. The Siege Module effectively upgrades those 3 or 4 turrets to between 18 and 24 turrets worth of equivalent damage with the 625% boost. Also, those turrets hit smaller immobile target's just fine in the same way as long ranged large turrets do, the further away the better, and if anything smaller than a capital ship gets under the Juggernaut's guns it's going to miss just the same. ------------------------------------------------- We are recruiting! Have a look here for more information. |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:41:00 -
[25]
Well, I like the idea, but I cannot think why someone would want to take one to a fleet battle. I would love to see a fleet battle with capital ships on the front lines, but that will never happen due to inflexibility of moving capital ships, and their performance compared to the same value in standard BS's. --
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Cruniac
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:42:00 -
[26]
I like the general idea, although care must be taken not to just turn these into capital sized battleships, they need to have something else as well. As it is, it might be a bit tricky to find a place for them inbetween the dread and carrier.
Are we in essence talking about a more flexible dread, with a slightly lower max dps output, but with more possible battlefield roles?
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: 50freefly I think that this would be the perfect addition to the game... Make them BIG, along with the rest of the capital ships (resize them basically, they are not NEARLY big enough atm).
Yeah, scaling ingame is FUBAR and has been for a long time.
Quote: Duat and Thunderbird don't sound very good, give them better names... =)
I did a lot of digging to get those names, but I'd welcome any suggestion that was better.
Quote: Oh, and these things WILL need a bonus to tanking if they can't use seige mode, they will be very very easily popped otherwise.
I know I'd train for one!
These ships may justify having a third bonus.
Perhaps Armor Resists for Progenitor, Shield Resists for Thunderbird, Armor Boost for Duat, and Shield Boost for Jormungand? _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alyth
Originally by: Thor Xian
Siege mode does not affect range, it greatly nerfs tracking, buff damage (but to only 3 or 4 weapon hardpoints), and buffs repairers/boosters.
In short, Juggernauts will do more than twice as much damage in battlefield scenarios, but less than half in siege scenarios. Tanking will last longer on a Juggernaut, but a Siege Dread will still do it more efficiently.
CCP originally said Dreads were going to be the pinnacle of fleet combat...well they aren't. But they are still needed for territory control. Juggernauts would better fill out a Capital Fleet though unless Sieging.
There's just one flaw in that reasoning. The Siege Module effectively upgrades those 3 or 4 turrets to between 18 and 24 turrets worth of equivalent damage with the 625% boost. Also, those turrets hit smaller immobile target's just fine in the same way as long ranged large turrets do, the further away the better, and if anything smaller than a capital ship gets under the Juggernaut's guns it's going to miss just the same.
The Juggernaut will have more options available to it in battlefield scenarios than a Dread, not to mention more slots overall. Maybe make it immune to Webbing, Dampening, and Tracking Disruption. Straight up jamming and warp jamming are still a go tho. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lord WarATron Well, I like the idea, but I cannot think why someone would want to take one to a fleet battle. I would love to see a fleet battle with capital ships on the front lines, but that will never happen due to inflexibility of moving capital ships, and their performance compared to the same value in standard BS's.
Perhaps a unique ability of the Juggernaut could be an ability to jump to a non hi sec star within range? They wouldnt be fantastic soloing ships, and they certainly wouldnt take a system down, but mobility has its own advantages. _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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Thor Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.02.23 12:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Cruniac I like the general idea, although care must be taken not to just turn these into capital sized battleships, they need to have something else as well. As it is, it might be a bit tricky to find a place for them inbetween the dread and carrier.
Are we in essence talking about a more flexible dread, with a slightly lower max dps output, but with more possible battlefield roles?
I was thinking Tier 2 Dread as in between Motherships and Dreads/Carriers
The exact DPS figures can be figured out relatively quick...I'll do that tomorrow if nobody else does it first, but you have the right idea: Less asolute damage, but more flexibility when dealing dmg, and more traditional ship combat than specialized use (Titans being the Batman of spaceships rarely use guns)... _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Material Defender
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