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How about putting a large pilot cap on all 0.0 systems? (read on!)

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mechtech	Posted - 2007.02.20 23:33:00 - [1] Obviously, EvE has grown (in population) to the point where there is nothing stopping alliances getting 500 people together to fight in a fleet battle. The problem is, the server can only handle up to 200v200 without causing major problems (that # is still laggy, albeit playable.) How about having it so that the alliance with sovereignty over the system can have at max 200 logged in there at any given time, and there are 200 remaining slots for other pilots? (Read on for the pros/cons, and compare it to the current way fleet battles are before commenting, please) Once the system fills up, any attackers reinforcements will obviously be waiting a system away ready to jump in and fight. The defenders could in theory send out another fleet to fight the reinforcements, *making a nice, controlled overflow system to fleet battles.* This will also bring new mechanics into play, like supply chains to refuel the forces fighting in the base system, and distracting reinforcements for long enough to gain an upper hand. Strategy gains more importance, as there are multiple fleets to control, not just 1 giant blob. Communication between the different groups are also heightened in importance, reinforcing teamwork between all involved (goes well with the new voice comm. getting built into EvE.) Titans would also be more effective in their "supposed" primary role, acting as mobile battle command stations. Annoying swarm tactics won't work as well wither, as maximizing the 200 person fleet becomes important. This also kills the new controversial "exploit" of sending in 500 pilots to crash the node, and then having another fleet waiting to jump in when the node restarts. The only exploit I can see is if the defending alliance creates alts to take up the 200 attacker's slots. This is easily beaten by adding the element of surprise to the attack, and not letting them even get the chance to do that. This is a very visible exploit as well, and will quickly lower the alliances view in the eyes of rivals, creating an even bigger movement against them (as is shown with all the new war decs against BoB after they used "questionable" [to some] tactics to destroy 2 titans, and the whole t20 affair). All in all, no solution to the lag question will ever be perfect, unless CCP plops down $10m for a Jita server for every system. I think the proposed solution would make the game more fun to play, and have less downsides to than the current system.
Sul Sonic Caldari Mining Bytes Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.20 23:59:00 - [2] That actually sounds like a good idea to me, only problem is that its just one more thing that can be abused(not like that ever happen :P). I am of the opinion that an alliance vs. alliance battle should not take place in one place in a system, it should be going on over the entire system in different places, for example there are too many choke points. CCP should just give every single ship a jump drive, different ships can jump different distances, and remove most gates, except the really long range ones.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.21 00:27:00 - [3] A system which allocates the same number of ships to each side regardless of the power of those ships, the relative strengths of the two sides, the overall size of each complete fleet, and the fact that attacking typically requires that you outnumber the defenders can only be good. - Originally by: Constantine Arcanum (NOTE: ANUS RELATED ANTICS NO LONGER ALLOWED UNLESS THEY ARE REALLY, REALLY FUNNY OR DEPRAVED)
merc999 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.21 00:35:00 - [4] Originally by: Crumplecorn A system which allocates the same number of ships to each side regardless of the power of those ships, the relative strengths of the two sides, the overall size of each complete fleet, and the fact that attacking typically requires that you outnumber the defenders can only be good. It wont work... Systems will become invulnerable, using tactics like LV did in JV.. enough bubbles to make those who jump in motor 100+kms while having 100's of drones out so the vast majority of those jumping in dont even load before they die. The point most seem to ignore is that defence on the scale that LV used requires a mass of ships to swarm in to have any chance of getting a force out of the bubbles to attack the snipers. having equal numbers with one side entrenched and fortified will make the sustem untakeable.. Snip Do not change warning messages left by moderators, we mean it. - email [email protected] - Conuion Meow.
scabbsssjr Gallente M'8'S	Posted - 2007.02.21 00:50:00 - [5] Originally by: merc999 Originally by: Crumplecorn A system which allocates the same number of ships to each side regardless of the power of those ships, the relative strengths of the two sides, the overall size of each complete fleet, and the fact that attacking typically requires that you outnumber the defenders can only be good. It wont work... Systems will become invulnerable, using tactics like LV did in JV.. enough bubbles to make those who jump in motor 100+kms while having 100's of drones out so the vast majority of those jumping in dont even load before they die. The point most seem to ignore is that defence on the scale that LV used requires a mass of ships to swarm in to have any chance of getting a force out of the bubbles to attack the snipers. having equal numbers with one side entrenched and fortified will make the sustem untakeable.. Attack and defend, defenders have a natural advantage. I wouldn't see a prob, but when you bring in 1000+ppl that is a bit nuts. --------------------------- Originally by: Ductoris At this rate I'm going to ask for a BOB sub-forum.
merc999 Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.21 00:56:00 - [6] Edited by: merc999 on 21/02/2007 00:54:02 Quote: Attack and defend, defenders have a natural advantage. I wouldn't see a prob, but when you bring in 1000+ppl that is a bit nuts If a postion is that fortified then you have to use overwhelming numbers to breach the defences, bringing equal numbers is insane, you may as well save yourself the trouble of travelling and just undock from your home station and self destruct it will have the same effect on the enemy. It is simple military tactics, to breach a heavily fortified position you need to take more numbers than the defenders can kill before you scale the walls. LV's own admission that the first attack was slaughtered shows this. Throw 400 against 400 heavily fortified defenders then the 400 attackers will die, throw 1500 then hopefully 50% of them make it through to be able to engage the enemy. Snip Do not change warning messages left by moderators, we mean it. - email [email protected] - Conuion Meow.
mechtech	Posted - 2007.02.21 01:03:00 - [7] It wont work... Systems will become invulnerable, using tactics like LV did in JV.. enough bubbles to make those who jump in motor 100+kms while having 100's of drones out so the vast majority of those jumping in dont even load before they die. The point most seem to ignore is that defence on the scale that LV used requires a mass of ships to swarm in to have any chance of getting a force out of the bubbles to attack the snipers. having equal numbers with one side entrenched and fortified will make the system untakeable.. You could always use a titan to get your forces in, or maybe the new "twinned jumpdrive" outpost modification in development could get your forces in? If all else fails, the ideas floating around about the stargate overhaul could be combined with this idea. I'm thinking there should be some limit on bubbles around a gate, as 20 bubbles is simply too powerful, and forces attackers to bring double the number of defenders to even have a chance. You could resort to some creative tactics as well, like fitting MWDs on your ships, and refitting once you get in at a mothership. The fact alone that defenders are able to get so entrenched is a flaw that is independent from the proposed idea. Currently the only way to defeat such a defense is to crash the node, which IMO, is a really stupid to have to do. I agree that this is a problem, but it needs to be viewed separately from issues this is addressing. (node crashes and unplayable, unfun fleet battles)
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Swarm R i s e	Posted - 2007.02.21 01:04:00 - [8] Edited by: HankMurphy on 21/02/2007 01:01:38 Originally by: merc999 Throw 400 against 400 heavily fortified defenders then the 400 attackers will die, throw 1500 then hopefully 50% of them make it through to be able to engage the enemy. soooo you are left with still needing to cap the system and allowing proportionate defenders/attackers as to what showed up for the fight. we DONT need to comb over the obvious points of defender advantage on a jump in, we DO need to find a practical solution for the issue however. Race to the node crash is just stupid (and both sides knew this was gonna happen anyways, so no need to go into this ONE battle time and time again) if CCP cannot hold a node up under the stress that is going to be more and more and more common (eve is getting bigger everyday) than there needs to be some kind of solution (like a system cap) other than letting ppl crash the node over and over. ------------------------ From here on out i'm pretty sure CAOD forums = Jerry Springer
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.02.21 01:47:00 - [9] Now, explain to me again why turning on jump que's was a bad idea a few months ago, and caused complaint after complaint.... but now they are a good idea?
Redglare's Demise Shih Yang Tong	Posted - 2007.02.21 02:01:00 - [10] Sorry to say, but this is an awefull idea. No-one wants ques or pilot caps, its a bad idea all around. Not to mention its very easily exploitable.
Coasterbrian Loss of Sanity	Posted - 2007.02.21 02:13:00 - [11] All you have to do is have a friendly alliance fill up the remaining 200 slots. 200 LV + 200 BoB afk at POSs for 72 hours = no hostiles getting into system. No. ---------- Loss of Sanity.
Roxors Caldari SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.21 02:15:00 - [12] if they did something like this people could build alt alliances and contract themselves out to fill up "attacker" slots to defend these systems. i think any way you try to stack it CCP is eventually going to have to learn to share the load of these systems across multiple nodes. hopefully they will find a way to do this on the fly to prevent having to wait until downtime for the nodes to adjust. there must be a way to build dynamic clusters that can increase and decrease their members based on load without having to reboot. ----------- snip Signiture is anot allowed - please email [email protected] to find out why - hutch
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.21 02:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Roxors if they did something like this people could build alt alliances and contract themselves out to fill up "attacker" slots to defend these systems. i think any way you try to stack it CCP is eventually going to have to learn to share the load of these systems across multiple nodes. hopefully they will find a way to do this on the fly to prevent having to wait until downtime for the nodes to adjust. there must be a way to build dynamic clusters that can increase and decrease their members based on load without having to reboot. They assigned the system that died the maximum amount of server muscle any one system can be given at the time. It's not about the system not being able to adapt, it's that they can't channel enough processing power into one system. (AFAIK, IANAD) - Originally by: Constantine Arcanum (NOTE: ANUS RELATED ANTICS NO LONGER ALLOWED UNLESS THEY ARE REALLY, REALLY FUNNY OR DEPRAVED)
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems	Posted - 2007.02.21 02:48:00 - [14] Easily exploitable. The defenders can just keep tons of alts in the system they don't want to lose, BAM. No attackers. -- Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes - Devil ([email protected])
Roxors Caldari SniggWaffe Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.02.21 03:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Crumplecorn They assigned the system that died the maximum amount of server muscle any one system can be given at the time. It's not about the system not being able to adapt, it's that they can't channel enough processing power into one system. (AFAIK, IANAD) yes i know.. what I'm saying is that there should be a way around that by clustering multiple machines together. The technology exists its just not been implemented here. why is not something i can answer cause i haven't been privy to the devs discussions on server architecture. ----------- The coalition pwnd my alts baby titan and all i could do about it is grief some guys sig on the eve-o.
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.02.21 09:54:00 - [16] Some ideas were posted here
Bienurdau Hywoaf Minmatar Matari Holo News Network	Posted - 2007.02.21 10:13:00 - [17] To easy to make a system unattackable if limits are placed. If you placed such a limit then the defenders would have to have a lower limit than the attackers just to make it possible to work.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.02.21 10:28:00 - [18] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/02/2007 10:36:08 How about actually tackling the root cause of the problem and removing the need to throw so many pilots into one system?... Split Titan construction over several systems (3-6), in several different capital shipyards. e.g. 'Drive section', 'Reactor core', 'Bridge section', 'Primary hull' e.t.c Freighters are then required to take the manufactured components to a planet (any planet in any system) and drop them off as you do an outpost egg. Once all the parts are in place, wait for the next DT and out pops a Titan ready to be boarded by her pilot. Instead of one system to attack/defend there are now a minimum of three. The Titan can't be completed without all the parts so you be forced to defend all three, the attackers meanwhile can hit multiple systems at the same time, with destruction of capital ship yards in any of the systems achieving their goal, thus preventing the "OMGWTFBLOB!!" node death - kthxbye situation that occurred with the LV titan. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2007.02.21 10:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/02/2007 10:37:44 How about actually tackling the root cause of the problem and removing the need to throw so many pilots into one system?... Split Titan construction over several systems (3-6), in several different capital shipyards. e.g. 'Drive section', 'Reactor core', 'Bridge section', 'Primary hull' e.t.c Freighters are then required to take the manufactured components to a planet (any planet in any system) and drop them off as you do an outpost egg. Once all the parts are in place, wait for the next DT and out pops a Titan ready to be boarded by her pilot. Instead of one system to attack/defend there are now a minimum of three. The Titan can't be completed without all the parts so you would be forced to defend all three, the attackers meanwhile can hit multiple systems at the same time, with destruction of capital ship yards in any of the systems achieving their goal, thus preventing the "OMGWTFBLOB!!" node death - kthxbye situation that occurred with the LV titan. Only peoples what was never out of Jita could suggest such thing. Even if you split titan production over 200 systems the attackers still will have to destroy them one by one, and defenders, surprisingly, defend 1 by 1. So its still 1000 vs 1000 situation. Its just a nature of POS war.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.21 11:02:00 - [20] Originally by: Roxors Originally by: Crumplecorn They assigned the system that died the maximum amount of server muscle any one system can be given at the time. It's not about the system not being able to adapt, it's that they can't channel enough processing power into one system. (AFAIK, IANAD) yes i know.. what I'm saying is that there should be a way around that by clustering multiple machines together. The technology exists its just not been implemented here. why is not something i can answer cause i haven't been privy to the devs discussions on server architecture. It's a nice idea, but I think that the communcation between the systems would be too slow. Maybe one they they could bring it down to a server per grid level, but the ships you see around you will have to be handled by the same server you are, or everything will just happen too slowly. - Originally by: Constantine Arcanum (NOTE: ANUS RELATED ANTICS NO LONGER ALLOWED UNLESS THEY ARE REALLY, REALLY FUNNY OR DEPRAVED)
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.02.21 11:03:00 - [21] would not work as typically alliance who has sov has allies (which are not linked with any in-game feature) so server would have zero way of knowing h many each side actually had, I'll use my alliance as example only say we had 200 IAC pilots in one of our systems supported by 100 of our allies (say goons) then enemy could only ever get 100 into system as it would have no way to know goons were with us making it a 300 vrs 100 situation. Join The Fight With Promo Today
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.02.21 11:06:00 - [22] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/02/2007 11:03:06 Originally by: Lenaria Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/02/2007 10:37:44 How about actually tackling the root cause of the problem and removing the need to throw so many pilots into one system?... Split Titan construction over several systems (3-6), in several different capital shipyards. e.g. 'Drive section', 'Reactor core', 'Bridge section', 'Primary hull' e.t.c Freighters are then required to take the manufactured components to a planet (any planet in any system) and drop them off as you do an outpost egg. Once all the parts are in place, wait for the next DT and out pops a Titan ready to be boarded by her pilot. Instead of one system to attack/defend there are now a minimum of three. The Titan can't be completed without all the parts so you would be forced to defend all three, the attackers meanwhile can hit multiple systems at the same time, with destruction of capital ship yards in any of the systems achieving their goal, thus preventing the "OMGWTFBLOB!!" node death - kthxbye situation that occurred with the LV titan. Only peoples what was never out of Jita could suggest such thing. Even if you split titan production over 200 systems the attackers still will have to destroy them one by one, and defenders, surprisingly, defend 1 by 1. So its still 1000 vs 1000 situation. Its just a nature of POS war. Hello, who are you again? Why don't you come to Curse (Paradise constellation), I'll show you someone who has 'never been out of jita'.... Perhaps I have to spell it out: Splitting construction over several systems means several equal-valued targets, destruction of any one of which halts production. If the defenders blob 1000 people into just one of the systems, the attackers simply bypass it and knock out one or both of the others achieving the same result. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Caia	Posted - 2007.02.21 11:14:00 - [23] Its a great idea in theory, but in practice this will make it so that POS's are completely unattackable. The only decent way to deal with this is to either get faster servers or (GASP!) start another server from scratch. There's already some issue with over-crowding. Ever check the wait time for ME jobs? The minimum time is 2 weeks, if you're lucky. The servers are starting to show signs that they aren't up to the challenge of certain aspects. When you have to crash a node to take out a Titan, something is very very wrong with the system. I realize Eve has always had some growing pains. But, its now growing faster than ever, and it'll only get worse from here. How many solid state servers can you string together before you start having issues? This "crash the node 'exploit'" is going to become more and more popular. Its only a matter of time until it becomes THE way to take out a POS.
Otellus Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.02.21 11:32:00 - [24] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/02/2007 11:03:06 Originally by: Lenaria Originally by: Gabriel Karade Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 21/02/2007 10:37:44 How about actually tackling the root cause of the problem and removing the need to throw so many pilots into one system?... Split Titan construction over several systems (3-6), in several different capital shipyards. e.g. 'Drive section', 'Reactor core', 'Bridge section', 'Primary hull' e.t.c Freighters are then required to take the manufactured components to a planet (any planet in any system) and drop them off as you do an outpost egg. Once all the parts are in place, wait for the next DT and out pops a Titan ready to be boarded by her pilot. Instead of one system to attack/defend there are now a minimum of three. The Titan can't be completed without all the parts so you would be forced to defend all three, the attackers meanwhile can hit multiple systems at the same time, with destruction of capital ship yards in any of the systems achieving their goal, thus preventing the "OMGWTFBLOB!!" node death - kthxbye situation that occurred with the LV titan. Only peoples what was never out of Jita could suggest such thing. Even if you split titan production over 200 systems the attackers still will have to destroy them one by one, and defenders, surprisingly, defend 1 by 1. So its still 1000 vs 1000 situation. Its just a nature of POS war. Hello, who are you again? Why don't you come to Curse (Paradise constellation), I'll show you someone who has 'never been out of jita'.... Perhaps I have to spell it out: Splitting construction over several systems means several equal-valued targets, destruction of any one of which halts production. If the defenders blob 1000 people into just one of the systems, the attackers simply bypass it and knock out one or both of the others achieving the same result. Doesn't work. Your proposal makes it necessary for defenders to spread out, but not for attackers. So attackers would still send the 500 man blob of doom in to halt production at 1 place and then steamroll on. The real problem here might very well be Warp to Zero, which makes blobs much more mobile, and therefore bigger.

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