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Red Crown
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Posted - 2007.02.20 23:55:00 -
[1]
Seriously. This, in my opinion, is one of the major kinks in fleet warfare. You see the enemy fleet coming on scans, spin up the cyno, and BOOM - they are dead. Meanwhile, your titan is sitting X number of AUs away.
1. The titan has had to put forth as much risk as being inside the system. It can be as far out of scan range as it wants.
2. The doomsday is for the most part, a 1 hit kill, or it basically puts your fleet down and out of combat due to the fact your all at 50% armor usually.
3. Its generally agreed the blast is grid - wide.
My personal idea of the doomsdays, in an effort to make them semi balanced, is to model them not as a Doomsday weapon - but more as a Tactical Nuclear Weapon.
I propose that DD's should - 1. Have their Radii reduced to something like, 50KM. 2. Have their destructive powers reduced to roughly 70-75% of what it is now. 3. Can be shot at a locked target or Cyno field, with relative accuracy, from a distance of max. 250KM.
First, the Titan has to place itself on the feild. Even a comfy distance out, but still out there. Second, the doomsday should be a far more tactical weapon. 50KM will still encompass most fleets, and at 75% damage they will still be devastated, but not necessarily totally destroyed.
Even if my numbers don't work at all, I think a DD should be modeled on what a Tac Nuke was designed to do in the real world to a naval fleet.
Just a quick thought.
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.20 23:57:00 -
[2]
signed but doubt u will make much progress the DD seems to have been made what it is and i dont think CCP will tinker with it much
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ScreamingLord Sutch
Hand in Mouth
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Posted - 2007.02.21 00:02:00 -
[3]
It's antiblob. People blob the bejesus out of systems and complain they get DD'd. Create smaller targets of opportunity and this wont happen.
If its damage and blastradius were reduced it would hardly be a *DOOMSDAY!!!* device would it?
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Zafon
Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.21 00:02:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Red Crown Seriously. This, in my opinion, is one of the major kinks in fleet warfare. You see the enemy fleet coming on scans, spin up the cyno, and BOOM - they are dead. Meanwhile, your titan is sitting X number of AUs away.
1. The titan has had to put forth as much risk as being inside the system. It can be as far out of scan range as it wants.
2. The doomsday is for the most part, a 1 hit kill, or it basically puts your fleet down and out of combat due to the fact your all at 50% armor usually.
3. Its generally agreed the blast is grid - wide.
My personal idea of the doomsdays, in an effort to make them semi balanced, is to model them not as a Doomsday weapon - but more as a Tactical Nuclear Weapon.
4. In the "real world" countries that have them have lots of tactical nuclear weapons. This isn't the real world. In Eve Titans hurt support fleets. Badly. In Eve 2.75 Titans have been destroyed.
So no.
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Soporo
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Posted - 2007.02.21 00:32:00 -
[5]
Doubt CCP will do anything to nerf the ultimate anti-blobbing weapon. Might be wrong, wish I was. |
ElweSingollo
The Vanyar
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Posted - 2007.02.21 00:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Zafon In Eve 2.75 Titans have been destroyed.
So no.
All of which offline or not built... kinda says something when BoB who you would think would be one of the entities capable of taking a Titan down had to do so while it was logged off...
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Kaalen
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.02.21 01:01:00 -
[7]
Although I still doubt that I will even be close to a titan in the forseeable future, I had always envisioned the doomsday device as being essentially a collosal smartbomb. I suggest that it's damage capacity stays the same but that the titan has to be present in the battle where it wishes to use the doomsday device.
A titan should strike fear into the hearts of all who engage one, it should be a symbol of sheer power that causes entire fleets of hardened pod pilots to quiver. To be honest, a ship like that needs to jump right into the fight, giving it's opponents enough time to exclaim "Oh ****! Is that a titan?! Get out! GET OU-" on vent before being obliterated. There's nothing terrifying or powerful about being parked at a safespot nearby the fight and pushing the 'big red button' without putting the titan at any risk whatsoever.
Basically, maintain the sheer power of the titan (or even scale it up accordingly to make the attack more worth the risk, I'm no expert on this so those with more experience and knowlege of the 'numbers' as it were will surely be able to shed more light on this. The use of a doomsday should be a rare occurance, imo.) but make the alliance that is fielding it bring it into the fight and put it at some risk. A ship this awe inspiring should be seen AND heard.
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Red Crown
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Posted - 2007.02.21 01:08:00 -
[8]
I think the DD has crossed the line between anti-blob, and an easy button, is all.
I agree that we need better tactics than the blob, but not a "You blob, you die no matter what."
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Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.02.21 01:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch It's antiblob.
If it is, it should be available to all instead of costing more than 100billions.
I'm all for a 'learn and adapt' philosphy, but all in the same boat.
Either the price or the titan or the doomsday weapon are unbalanced. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Spenz
Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.02.21 01:16:00 -
[10]
I agree kaalen, but one thing that is showing up in eve as more titans are built, too much of something = bad.
I feel that remote DD shots should do 50% less damage. I mean if the thing is traveling through a warp tunnel you would think some of that energy would leech off into subspace.
DD's are fine, REMOTE DD's could use some nerfage.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
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Xendie
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.21 01:18:00 -
[11]
it really should be max 50% dmg if used through a cyno.
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Humpalot
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Posted - 2007.02.21 01:21:00 -
[12]
Disclosure: I have no experience fighting blob wars much less Titans. Just some thoughts.
Which is it guys?
I see many posts slamming enemy X because all they do is "Blob" and how blob warfare sucks.
Now with the Titan you have an anti-blob machine available and people are griping about that.
What happened to "Adapt or die"?
In the American Civil War weapons had progressed beyond traditional tactics and the result was hideous casualties as generals marched massed, shoulder-to-shoulder, formations at their enemy leading to what can only be decribed as a slaughter. Eventually people figured they need to spread the troops out a bit.
So which is worse? Blob warfare or anti-blob Titans?
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Turas Kain
Minmatar Dark Moon Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.21 02:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Turas Kain on 21/02/2007 01:56:27 http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/bnc/titanDD.zip
Its not all that tricky when you know the damage type. Could likely be adapted to cover 2 types with taking more damage but not taking you out of the game. If facing a titan you just got to use less gank fittings, which in fleets is a fairly small compromise considering the total firepower.
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Aaron Static
Igneus Auctorita
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Posted - 2007.02.21 03:08:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Aaron Static on 21/02/2007 03:06:27 The DD should be severely limited by "space-time disturbances" or something when fired through a cyno... 50% of total dmg maybe
so it's still possible, but you shouldn't be able to take down a fleet of battleships/command ships/capital ships with a remote cyno. For that you should be staring them in the eyes or 250 km away at least.
but I do agree with CCP that 'blob-killers' are required.. and know for a fact that this is already affecting the battlefield, with known 'blobbers' now using 'waves' instead of one massive blob
- Igneus Auctorita Video - |
Nikla Uthaan
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.02.21 04:34:00 -
[15]
I dont think there's much concern here though,, someone already pointed out that you can overcome losing a whole fleet by splitting that fleet into "Ooh, squadrons and wings which came with a patch" and keeping them seperate till it's go time.
I dont think the counter to anti-blob should be a blob. Played many a strategy game where one unit is capable of destroying the most part of an enemy fleet because they are bunched together. While EVE is not an RTS, the concept is identical. ----------------- One word,, emo,,,
The Mishing is an ethnic group in the districts of North Lakhimpur, Sonitput, Dhemaji, Dibrugarh, Sibsagar, Jorhat, Golaghat, Tinsukia of Assam. |
altposter
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Posted - 2007.02.21 05:24:00 -
[16]
you might be able to counter this to a point currently, but what are you going to do when you're facing a corp/alliance/bandwagon of 15+ titans in the near future. how will you get in when they put large bubbles, 15 titans, and some t2 BS on a gate? you can't. how will you siege a pos in the future assuming you even get in the system to begin with? you wont be able to once enough titans are in place in insta pop your support and your dreads.
this isnt far off either. titans are being made at an alarming rate.
in effect, titans are encouraging blobing. in order to break into a system you have to double your numbers in order to hope that some survive the i win button and get in the system to attempt an objective, all the while playing the warpout game to try and avoid a 2nd or 3rd hit.
with enough titans an alliance will be invincible. titans are impossible to kill in legit combat without massive pilot error. they need a huge nerf to damage, cap regen, and should either be forced to siegemode to fire dd or have a large warpstab bonus and allow them to be scrambled. otherwise they will never die. there should also be a hardcap limit on the number of titan doomsday blasts in a system per hour to prevent chain DD'ing, and also fix the bug that if a titan drops to a node crash he can immeadiately fire DD again.
nerf titans, seriously. before the break this already broken game further.
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RIAH HOPE
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Posted - 2007.02.21 05:44:00 -
[17]
Thats exactly the point i wanted to show too.
What will be the situation in 2 years how many titans will we have in game? ofc first they will usem as defensive weapon but when more built they will be offensive weapons and ull see Titan blobs.
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altposter
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Posted - 2007.02.21 05:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: RIAH HOPE Thats exactly the point i wanted to show too.
What will be the situation in 2 years how many titans will we have in game? ofc first they will usem as defensive weapon but when more built they will be offensive weapons and ull see Titan blobs.
2 years? BoB has 3 now. Wouldnt suprise me if they have 5+ more being built. Once LV disbands and joins bob they'll pickup another 1 atleast. BoB alone could reach the 10 titan point in just 3 or 4 months. Good luck to anyone trying to siege a system where a DD goes off every 6 minutes.
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.21 05:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: RIAH HOPE Thats exactly the point i wanted to show too.
What will be the situation in 2 years how many titans will we have in game? ofc first they will usem as defensive weapon but when more built they will be offensive weapons and ull see Titan blobs.
titan blobs - the game enteres the end zone. They have changed the face of warfare in eve but until they ae active for a while and CCP have stats and prepare a nerf u will see the slaughter continue
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EPSILON DELTA
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Posted - 2007.02.21 07:31:00 -
[20]
/signed
Anti-Blob should not mean "he who owns more titans wins"
stealth bomber, high radius torpedos, anything that dosn't insta-kill AND could cover a whole fleet. -------------------------------------------------- Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it? |
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.02.21 07:33:00 -
[21]
Originally by: EPSILON DELTA /signed
Anti-Blob should not mean "he who owns more titans wins"
stealth bomber, high radius torpedos, anything that dosn't insta-kill AND could cover a whole fleet.
mmm a stealth bombing carrier could have a place perhaps citadel torps or a mini doomsday. ( consider it a mini calderi carrier instead of drones has citadel torps instead)
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.21 07:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Humpalot
What happened to "Adapt or die"?
Technical limitations in the game happen to it.
Quote:
In the American Civil War weapons had progressed beyond traditional tactics and the result was hideous casualties as generals marched massed, shoulder-to-shoulder, formations at their enemy leading to what can only be decribed as a slaughter. Eventually people figured they need to spread the troops out a bit.
So which is worse? Blob warfare or anti-blob Titans?
Titans are not 'anti-blob', they are pro capital-blobbing and anti 'anyone that doesn't have at least 1 Titan'. While with a fair amount of effort, trickery and undocumented game mechanics a super-capital swarm can be overcome, the rewards for doing so are designed to be negligible by making these capitals unscramblable. So you have a low-risk fieldable asset that allows you to blob without fear of retaliation as long as your opposition simply doesn't have Titans. Better yet, you've just removed most of the risk in fielding an offensive capital fleet as far as scramblable, regular capitals go.
Furthermore, most counters are rather tedious due to simple code issues - grid loading times most prominently. And then comes as people have mentioned in this thread, that all practical counters go out the window once they become even more commonplace (although DD alphaing Dreads dead is unlikely still). That is where the crux of the matter lies, as utilizing the limited refire of DDs doesn't really work if the refire is not that limited anymore.
The assumption that EvE warfare as a whole is on an American Civil War level is flawed - it's really highly adapted and detailed beyond your wildest imagination if you haven't had the pleasure of organizing it yet. It's not a question of "Why don't we adapt?", it's a question of seeing the methods of adaptation already (months ahead of time for most of us that have bothered) and seeing where they'll be bound to fail as time and the game progresses. At which point we're simply at a dead-end which reads 'go super-capital or go home'.
We're not there yet though, this isn't conversation about here and now and the current war.
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EPSILON DELTA
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Posted - 2007.02.21 07:49:00 -
[23]
make titans powerful, fine, but make it hard to use
make titans have to be in same solar system to use DD, at least would add some logistic issue to the current cyro-ship-super-fleet-buster system, and make titans not just a... literally speaking, i-win button.
comparing it to real life, true canons force people spread rather than charge en-mass, but canons are 1-killable by smaller infiltration groups, 2- can't shoot across continent, and 3- did i meantion they are killable? -------------------------------------------------- Yes I'm a forum alt, what you going to do about it? |
Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.21 08:44:00 -
[24]
Originally by: EPSILON DELTA
make titans have to be in same solar system to use DD
They already have to be. It's not an impediment.
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Otellus
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.21 08:46:00 -
[25]
Little birdie told me Titans were gonna be changed to mobile stations when advanced sovereignty comes in.
Not sure what that means for the DD device, but it would be better if CCP gave that kind of information out to more than just the usual people they seem to hang out with. Does CCP really want another instance where selected parties get a headstart due to insider information? Thought we had enough problems with that in the recent past...
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DarkFenix
Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.21 09:07:00 -
[26]
I can't see the problem with DD personally. Firstly, after your Titan is used for the first time, everyone knows who flies it. It takes a hell of a committment to learn to use these things effectively so it is currently only feasible to have 1 pilot train up to use a Titan specifically. This means you know where their Titan is, cloaked or no (local anyone?). If there's a Titan around, don't blob up, or just be ready to scram when you see the DD starting up. Once it's fired, you've got an hour long window to do whatever.
And complaints about everyone having a Titan in 2 years are redundant. Many patches will be out by then, whether bringing in ships capable of Titan killing, or just altering the Titans into a less anti-blob role.
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Otellus
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.21 09:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: EPSILON DELTA make titans powerful, fine, but make it hard to use
make titans have to be in same solar system to use DD, at least would add some logistic issue to the current cyro-ship-super-fleet-buster system, and make titans not just a... literally speaking, i-win button.
comparing it to real life, true canons force people spread rather than charge en-mass, but canons are 1-killable by smaller infiltration groups, 2- can't shoot across continent, and 3- did i meantion they are killable?
The last sentence is where your comparison fails. Yes, in RL a smaller infiltration group can kill a cannon that would obliterate a blob. However, titans require a huge blob to kill, they just 'tank' small infiltration groups solo. And of course titans are always protected by sizeable assets, unless we want to continue the trend of killing titans when the owner is offline?
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Otellus
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.02.21 09:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: DarkFenix I can't see the problem with DD personally. Firstly, after your Titan is used for the first time, everyone knows who flies it. It takes a hell of a committment to learn to use these things effectively so it is currently only feasible to have 1 pilot train up to use a Titan specifically. This means you know where their Titan is, cloaked or no (local anyone?). If there's a Titan around, don't blob up, or just be ready to scram when you see the DD starting up. Once it's fired, you've got an hour long window to do whatever.
And complaints about everyone having a Titan in 2 years are redundant. Many patches will be out by then, whether bringing in ships capable of Titan killing, or just altering the Titans into a less anti-blob role.
The investment of training up a titan pilot is only time, beyond that its negligible with multiple accounts. And lag is on the titans side. With the numbers required to do anything meaningful these days, lag is a given, and lag makes a titan a lot more deadly.
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DarkFenix
Caldari Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.02.21 09:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Otellus
Originally by: DarkFenix I can't see the problem with DD personally. Firstly, after your Titan is used for the first time, everyone knows who flies it. It takes a hell of a committment to learn to use these things effectively so it is currently only feasible to have 1 pilot train up to use a Titan specifically. This means you know where their Titan is, cloaked or no (local anyone?). If there's a Titan around, don't blob up, or just be ready to scram when you see the DD starting up. Once it's fired, you've got an hour long window to do whatever.
And complaints about everyone having a Titan in 2 years are redundant. Many patches will be out by then, whether bringing in ships capable of Titan killing, or just altering the Titans into a less anti-blob role.
The investment of training up a titan pilot is only time, beyond that its negligible with multiple accounts. And lag is on the titans side. With the numbers required to do anything meaningful these days, lag is a given, and lag makes a titan a lot more deadly.
Deadly indeed, but this isn't a problem given their rarity. I'm sure as more and more Titans are built, they will become the fashionable hate object for the forums and something will be changed though.
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Raaki
The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2007.02.21 09:58:00 -
[30]
It should be deadly, but launching DD true a Cyno is stupid.
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