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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:01:00 -
[1]
I could go on and on about why not seeding any more T2 BPOs, or for that matter any T3 BPOs when T3 is finally introduced (and it will be, some day) would be a bad idea, or how Invention still has to go a long way before even becoming a valid alternative in production compared to existing T2 BPO holders, or about how Invention should be the way to get new T2+ BPOs instead of removing new T2 BPOs from the game, but I won't, because that's another story.
The issue here is WHY do people feel no new T2+ BPOs should come into the game in the long run.
Quoting from the recent dev blog by Oveur, one of his arguments in favor of removing any chance of new T2 BPOs coming into the game seems to be that invention is, I quote, "A better alternative to Tech 1 distribution which results in an oversaturated market."
Now, I have no idea where Oveur gets his ideas from, but from where I'm standing, the T1 market is far from "oversaturated", even with the recent mineral price fluctuations and an unlimited theoretical supply of BPOs.
Many people that ARE in the manufacturing bussiness can atest to the fact that indeed, except a handful T2 BPOs, the most profit they can muster is FROM T1 MANUFACTURE.
If indeed the T1 market would be "oversaturated" as Oveur seems to imply, the profit margins on T1 manufacture would be minimal, next to inexistant without maxed-out skills and highly researched blueprints... matter-of-factly, this statement is FALSE, as you can pinch a minimal profit even without PE5 and mint-fresh BPOs.
Not only that, but the manufacturing times on T2 modules ensure the fact that T1 variants can be produced in much larger numbers in the same amount of time, so even a small percentual profit margin can mean a decent absolute profit in terms of manufacturing time.
You know when the market would be oversaturated ? When you'll keep seing vast amounts of T1 ships and modules sitting unsold close to base/insurance price or even below. And that's definetely not the case.
In closing, the T1 market is the best example of EVE's economy and market model at its best, and it should be where the T2 market (and future tech levels markets) should STRIVE to get, not the other way around.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Miss CJB
Gallente
In White Suits
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:06:00 -
[2]
looks prity saturated to me, whats your secret?
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Taiatia ([email protected]) |
Major Stormer
Caldari
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:13:00 -
[3]
To much T1 out there IMO. Very hard for new players to the whole building and selling to make a profit there in empire space at least.
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Marcus TheMartin
Gallente
Tuxedo.
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:13:00 -
[4]
Limit the amount of t1 bpo's to 100 per t1 ship/module/etc
Require production to be done in a pos (implement a smaller factory pos for the little guy)
Allow BPO's to be looted from pos's
BLOOD FOR BPO's!
Never again are you allowed to complain about not training for combat |
Hiro Kazamatsuri
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:17:00 -
[5]
NPC supply of T1 goods need to go !
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lofty29
Athanasius Inc.
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:17:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Marcus TheMartin
Limit the amount of t1 bpo's to 100 per t1 ship/module/etc
Require production to be done in a pos (implement a smaller factory pos for the little guy)
Allow BPO's to be looted from pos's
BLOOD FOR BPO's!
You wanna pay a jacked up price for all of your t1 stuff now? 
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Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Thx Pirlouit
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:22:00 -
[7]
There's a big difference between "nearly saturated", "saturated" and "oversaturated".
At worst, in big market hubs, the market is "saturated", with most products selling with a small markup (20% at most) over "perfect" manufacture costs, in other words for a price close to what a person with basic manufacturing skills could manufacture himself (PE3, ME0 blueprint).
Even in Jita, you have markups close to 10% compared to perfect manufacture costs.
An "oversaturated" market would seldom see profit margins above 5% of "perfect manufacture" costs, in other words closed off for any newcomers without perfect skills and enough start-up capital/logistics to keep a steady supply and undercut competitors.
As for "non-saturated" markets... just move AWAY from major hubs, but still in populated areas.
Set up shop in areas where people are likely to lose their ships and need new ones... so either in lowsec directly (bonus points for making profit off pirates that might not even be able to enter highsec), or in a highsec right next to a lowsec but reasonably far away from a market hub.
Don't sell a single product, sell a complete palette of products so that people DON'T have to go to another station or another solar system to complete their ship fitout.
If need be, support your "shop" with imports of items you can't manufacture yourself (read: T2) bought from the hubs and brought in your region. I am talking mostly about T2 damage mods, weapons, repairers/boosters and resists modules... weather you sell them for a profit or just at a small markup to attract "clients" to your particular spot, that's a different issue.
So yeah, there's no "secret", it's just common sense.
The T1 market is far from saturated, and it only on the brink of saturation in major hubs.
Oversaturated ? Sorry, no way.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Gadfly Hawke
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Major Stormer
To much T1 out there IMO. Very hard for new players to the whole building and selling to make a profit there in empire space at least.
This doesn't agree with my experience. I have to keep after it to maintain adequate stocks of many T1 items, and I routinely earn 300% to 400% profits. I won't put an item up for sale for less than 100% profit. Even with all the NPC drops, T1 stuff is still a big seller, at least in my area. We certainly don't have an oversaturation, IMO.
G-Tek is recruiting |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.22 15:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gadfly Hawke
This doesn't agree with my experience. I have to keep after it to maintain adequate stocks of many T1 items, and I routinely earn 300% to 400% profits. I won't put an item up for sale for less than 100% profit. Even with all the NPC drops, T1 stuff is still a big seller, at least in my area. We certainly don't have an oversaturation, IMO.
Case in point 
Also, just wait until Dark Shikari comes in here and starts telling you about HIS profit off T1 manufacture right smack-dab in the middle of "saturation alley", Jita Central.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.23 09:58:00 -
[10]
Come on, this is an important issue... it's basically the reasoning behind the tech-two and future-tech hassle, the erroneous belief the T1 model is fundamentally flawed and leading to oversaturation... when in fact, it seems it's not.
Could any dev take some time to actually answer, what the heck do they think it's actually wrong with T1 anyway that shouldn't be the same with, well, anything else ? Considering what was already said in here, that is.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
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AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:03:00 -
[11]
eh? Why would anyone in their right mind would buy a T1 module? Not when one can just go to the right area and beat one out of a NPC inside 5 minutes.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
eh? Why would anyone in their right mind would buy a T1 module? Not when one can just go to the right area and beat one out of a NPC inside 5 minutes.
Sometimes you want a ship as cheap as possible, as opposed to "best money can get from the regional market", if you can find it in the first place anyway.
If you have to ask why they sell, apparently you can't find the right place to make a profit from them.
For instance, ships and items rarely dropped by NPCs that get used a lot in setups (ammo, charges, crystals, istabs, nanos, abs/mwds, CPR, SPR, PDU, cap recharger, cap injector).
Take it from those that DO sell T1 modules, ships and other products... they just sell, in the right places.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari
STK Scientific
INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.02.23 10:58:00 -
[13]
Must not have made my point clear. It's the fact NPCs drop those modules is oversaturating the empire markets. Low security there isn't enough population to support sales considering the costs involved and the 0.0 markets are mostly closed to outsiders.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:12:00 -
[14]
The more ISK and the more cheap goods there are on the market, the better it is for the pew-pew. If things cost more, then people will be less willing to take risks.
It's really quite simple.
-AS |
Malcanis
Galactech Industries Ltd.
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
eh? Why would anyone in their right mind would buy a T1 module? Not when one can just go to the right area and beat one out of a NPC inside 5 minutes.
5 minutes per module... maybe.
The answer to your question is 'convenience'.
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Terminal Entry
New Fnord Industries
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:25:00 -
[16]
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
eh? Why would anyone in their right mind would buy a T1 module? Not when one can just go to the right area and beat one out of a NPC inside 5 minutes.
There are a lot of T1 modules that aren't dropped by rats, Tractor Beams, Salvagers, Codebreakers, Prototype Cloaking Devices etc. I could go on and on and not even mention Capital Ship modules which are still T1.
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Dei
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:33:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Dei on 23/02/2007 11:29:36
Would it be correct now we're on the topic that t1 is an example of 'perfect competition' and t2 is an example of a 'monopoly'. Basically t2 has to be made more available through invention. However, if it's made too available then the t2 market becomes saturated too, which would suck for the manufacturers again.
This is probably outrageous, but why not have a different system for getting t2 blueprints. So for instance on research agents you can actually buy BPCs of the appropriate type in which research is being done for RP? The t1 market sucks too but I don't know how to fix that apart from limiting theamount of t1 BPOs in supply, which I guess no-one would like.
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The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack |
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Ivan Kirilenkov
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2007.02.23 11:42:00 -
[18]
Please use the comments threads when you are commening on the dev blogs. If everybody were to create their own threads giving feedback, we just end up cluttering GD and the Devs don't get a change to actually read all the feedback. Please use them instead of creating new threads.
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