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Mysteries of dps and damage per hit

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Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5080	Posted - 2016.05.16 02:24:32 - [1] - Quote I'm not entirely sure I understand what I just read... but I would like to correct a few inconsistencies. Missiles are not one-shot drones. Drones have optimal and falloff, and they can and certainly do miss. Missiles can be evaded, smart-bombed and the damage mitigated, but provided the target stays within range they can and always will hit for at least some damage. It is also possible to apply 100% missile damage, although this becomes exponentially harder the smaller the target and the larger the missile type. The chance of achieving a wrecking shot (3x damage) is something abysmally low (~1%), and as best as I was able to determine is a fixed chance and independent of the type of gun (or drone), tracking, optimal and falloff. The reason guns and drones are popular is that they deliver instant damage over large distances whereas missiles have varying degrees of flight time. I don't think players fit guns with the expectation that they're going to have 3x stated DPS... More DPS is always better (even with horrible damage application), regardless of rate of fire, alpha or other considerations. Ideally you want the highest DPS possible while still being able to apply a high percentage of this and without completely gimping your fit. If your survival time is measured in seconds, DPS is usually a moot point anyway. Tornados are popular because their high alpha is geared towards ganking ships with one shot, and their lifespan is typically measured in the time it takes CONCORD to arrive. The same is also true to some extent for Catalysts and Thrashers, but they depend on a high cyclic DPS rather than alpha. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5083	Posted - 2016.05.16 20:46:22 - [2] - Quote Zhilia Mann wrote: See above; wrecking -- or "critical" if you insist -- hits are the last to do, not the first. I still don't understand most of your post, but I enjoyed reading it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5084	Posted - 2016.05.16 23:24:45 - [3] - Quote I have a practical question then: How does one reduce the amount of poorer quality hits (ie: grazing) - or is there even a way to accomplish this? Are we relegated to random chance for the regular occurrence of 50-150% shots? I'm not even taking about the 300% wrecking shots here... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5084	Posted - 2016.05.17 00:12:34 - [4] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Now I have to admit, I really don't know. I do however assume that those happen when tracking comes into which I didn't go into detail because there are sites for already. If I take my Nightmare I get those when I am too close for my tachyons to hit and maybe one of the four "graze" something for low damage. The client shows 3 missing shots and one hit but if thats accurate I can't tell. I have seen all combinations of one or two or three turrets missing and doing only 400 damage. Other than the "more is always better" analogy, it would be nice to know what if anything one can focus on to improve hit performance. I'd be happy just reducing the number of subpar hits - whether it's hyping tracking speed to an unreal level, applying target painters to augment this, etc. It looks like we have: Grazes (50%), Glances Off (75%?), Hits (100%), Penetrates (125%?), Smashes (150%) and Wrecks (300%). "Grazes" seem to be particularly rare and "Smashes" and "Penetrates" quite common. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5084	Posted - 2016.05.17 00:28:26 - [5] - Quote After reading it twice, yes - it does. Is it possible to increase your hit chance beyond 100%, or is 100% the theoretical maximum? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5084	Posted - 2016.05.17 00:41:26 - [6] - Quote Next question: Does it make an difference or increase your chances by grouping weapons or firing them individually? I'm looking at sentry drones where they all fire individually (5) or in pairs (2) on ships like the Dominix and Golem. Obviously there's a range and tracking difference between the two, but running the Dominix tonight I found I was achieving probably better than 100% hits the vast majority of the time at ranges probably 50% into falloff. V drone skills, 4x Faction DDAs and 4x omni links (3x range, 1x tracking). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5084	Posted - 2016.05.17 00:46:08 - [7] - Quote Zhilia Mann wrote: Ok, now I'm in speculative territory and find admitting it: I'd guess that grouped guns report only the highest quality hit. Since you get to roll 4 times and the verbal description matches the highest, you're going to see a skew towards better hits reported. Damage shouldn't change from what I've described though. I guess that would make sense as opposed to one bad roll dominating the outcome for all guns. The question remains whether you're better off having more or fewer guns, ie: something like a Vindicator over a Kronos Marauder. Despite using twice the ammunition does the Vindicator also give you a better hit chance as a consequence? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5084	Posted - 2016.05.17 01:59:00 - [8] - Quote Interesting observations from drone combat... Going through my combat log, based on the last 95 attacks: GÇó 100% were hits (0% missed shots) GÇó 8 were Grazes (lowest) or 8.42% GÇó 12 were Glances Off (second lowest) or 12.63% GÇó 23 were Hits (100% DPS or higher) or 24.21% GÇó 30 were Penetrates or 31.58% GÇó 19 were Smashes or 20% GÇó 2 were Wrecking shots 2.11% That means 65/95 shots or 68.42% dealt above average DPS (anywhere from 125% to 300%). 74/95 shots or 77.89% dealt average or above DPS. I found this very helpful link, which I've amended with updated descriptions. GÇó "Grazes" .......... 0.500-0.625 of stated DPS (0.5625 average) GÇó "Glances Off" ... 0.625-0.750 of stated DPS (0.6875 average) GÇó "Hits" ................ 0.750-1.00 of stated DPS (0.875 average) GÇó "Penetrates" ..... 1.000-1.250 of stated DPS (1.125 average) GÇó "Smashes" ........ 1.250-1.490 of stated DPS (1.37 average) GÇó "Wrecks" ........... 3.00 of stated DPS (3 average) So if we use 800 drone DPS, we get: GÇó 8x Grazes (8.42%) -+ 450 DPS -+ 37.89 DPS GÇó 12x Glances (12.63%) -+ 550 DPS -+ 69.47 DPS GÇó 23x Hits (24.21%) -+ 700 DPS -+ 169.47 DPS GÇó 30x Penetrates (31.58%) -+ 1000 DPS -+ 315.8 DPS GÇó 19x Smashes (20%) -+ 1096 DPS -+ 219.2 DPS GÇó 2x Wrecking (2.11%) -+ 3000 DPS -+ 63.3 DPS Total DPS: 875.23 DPS (average) over the original paper DPS of 800, which is an increase of about 9.4%. So it definitely seems tracking, etc. pays off. More testing in-progress... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5089	Posted - 2016.05.17 22:08:02 - [9] - Quote Sobaan Tali wrote: I have yet another two questions to add to what Arthur may have been asking: What sounds better to you? One gun with 80% hit chance or 100 guns each with say 60% chance to hit? My thinking is that fewer guns means that misses hurt your outcome more so than if you had more guns to work with. In that scenario, the lone gun will either hit or miss and you do no damage. With many more guns but less chance to hit, you're more guaranteed to not apply most or all of the potential damage you could do if all guns hit, though just as likely to at least do some damage. Also, does the realization that you'll likely be firing these weapons more than once on progressively larger and tougher targets, though you will at times need but one good shot -- so long as it successfully lands -- to kill some smaller or weaker targets, change or affect your choice for the first question? And while we're at it, fewer or more drones? Obviously some ships like the Worm, Gila and Rattlesnake are limited by hull to a maximum of 2 bonused drones, but often you'll have 50mbit or 75mbit of bandwidth and instead of using 2-3 heavy drones you'd split them up into a combination of light, medium and heavy drones to maximize the limit of 5 drones. I realize that this probably isn't as high on the priority scale as guns, but a lot of ships employ drones as either the main or another primary weapon system. Some guns also have a lot better tracking and faster cyclic rate (ie: 350mm vs. 425mm railguns), so despite doing less stated DPS - are some of the less powerful guns actually doing more smashing and penetrating hits? If so, it would seem that a higher quality hit rate might be more advantageous than slightly higher DPS. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5089	Posted - 2016.05.18 02:13:38 - [10] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Sheeth Athonille wrote: I don't think the problem is your guide so much as the lack of context within the guide. Ouuuh :-( On the plus side, there were some interesting develoments as a result - even if we don't yet have a solid grasp on how to maximize hit results. It seems like wrecking shots are also more common (2-3%) - even if it's not possible to influence. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5098	Posted - 2016.05.18 19:05:45 - [11] - Quote Just a quick sidenote, I couldn't say what % of my drone shots were in optimal or falloff - only that they were within maximum range and that the targets varied in size and velocity. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5098	Posted - 2016.05.18 21:03:39 - [12] - Quote Zhilia Mann wrote: Agreed. I have lots to say on missiles too. Don't we all... The missile formula is like this: You start @100% damage and go down from there... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5098	Posted - 2016.05.18 21:21:28 - [13] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Given what we now know about turrets and drones and damage per second and damage per hit, another fact about drones is that they all have the same turret cycle time. It goes all the way from small to medium, heavy and sentry drones. All of them shoot their turrets every 4 seconds. Why that is, is not important here but it is important to know. I could not say for certain, but I wonder if it has something to do with the fact that DDAs only bonus damage and not rate of fire (something about not working with drones). elitatwo wrote: Given that I would propose limiting all ships in New Eden to 3 low slot since you could put up to 8 damage increasing modules on an armor boat and do borderline broken damage with it. Well, let's not go off the deep-end just yet... After four damage modules stacking penalties more or less render a 5th or 6th module moot. It's even debatable whether the 4th module is more beneficial than something else, to which I'd say it can really depend. elitatwo wrote: We get the totally unstoppable 770dps Gila. I wouldn't necessarily say it's unstoppable. Losing a 4th low slot and the -20 CPU hit really curbed a few roles (if I recall there was a particular wormhole niche that it had carved out). If it weren't for rapid light missile launchers the Gila would do almost zero missile DPS, because you'd need several low and mid slots just to get semi-decent DPS and application, which would really gimp your fit with respect to tank, drone damage, etc. I actually think the devs went too far with the Gila and should've left it with the 4th low slot. Like anything else, it really comes down to players finding a way to optimize ships for a specific task. It's not any different than it was for the Garmur, Orthrus, Machariel, Bhaalgorn, Vindicator, etc. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5098	Posted - 2016.05.18 21:32:34 - [14] - Quote elitatwo wrote: The Archon started moving and has a 100000000mn afterbuner on and while that Archon has a signature radius of ~ Long Island, she accelerated to ~120m/s. You should've webbed it. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5098	Posted - 2016.05.18 21:42:20 - [15] - Quote Uriam Khanid wrote: drone damage can also be increased by tracking modules and rigs. i find drone tracking modules much more useful than amplifiers since drones also shoot when they approach the target, where you can get more critical hits or alpha from drone falloff (especially heavy drones like berserks and prorators). The only drone damage rig is for Sentry Damage and never worth it unless you're not running any DDAs. There isn't any tracking-equivalent drone rig (wouldn't that be nice), so you're basically relegated to omnidirectional tracking links and drone scope chip rigs. Maybe we'll see something interesting with the rumoured drone implant set... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5099	Posted - 2016.05.19 05:52:49 - [16] - Quote Zhilia Mann wrote: Fighter Support Units increase rate of fire. I do recall something at the time DDAs were released about not being able to increase drone RoF, but apparently that has been overcome. Either that or fighters are modeled entirely differently (which could easily be the case). Maybe they're utilizing a new drone system. I'd love to see a similar overhaul for regular drones... Imagine being able to kick in MWD for your Geckos and attack with guns or rockets. Wicked sweet! I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5101	Posted - 2016.05.19 16:20:56 - [17] - Quote Uriam Khanid wrote: you are completly wrong, drone scoop chip and drone enhancer very-very useful even w/o DDA. Application and projection of drone damage is very important. This is allow you to strike with hammer (heavy's) with great precision. From my observation it looks like drones have some abilities of missile system. More tracking = more damage, also looks like flying dones benefit from range (heavy hits from 30-40km; medium from 20km). Yes, this is what I said - there's no dedicated drone tracking rig (only drone scope rigs that increase optimal range). And yes, while you do have omnidirectional tracking enhancers - they also consume a valuable low slot. Omnidirectional links are the best, however - as you can boost optimal and falloff or focus solely on tracking. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5101	Posted - 2016.05.19 18:00:18 - [18] - Quote elitatwo wrote: I made that sarcastic comment about the Gila nerf because I still very strongly believe that it was way too much. Yes the Gila could do a lot of damage, when the drones and missiles arrived, not instant. All the while a 1200dps Thorax with an immobilizer is okay and that damage is instant, with no chance of getting away. I guess that went over my head because the impression I got was that the Gilla was overpowered. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5108	Posted - 2016.05.20 20:03:47 - [19] - Quote The general rule is that Missiles start with 100% damage and go down from there while Drones and Guns start at 51-100% damage and go up. With perfect skills and the right modules, rigs and implants you can apply enough damage to destroy any size target. Whether you survive the attempt is another discussion entirely... Most of my experience is in PvE, and what I've found is that missiles are often better at destroying larger targets while guns excel at volleying smaller targets. Drones fall somewhere in the middle depending on whether you're using sentries, combat drones or some combination thereof. Hulls that receive a damage application bonus to one or more weapon systems (Typhoon, Dominix) tend to fare better than hulls that do not (Nestor, Rattlesnake). Because these bonuses aren't stacking penalized they becomes part of the "base" ship bonus and are virtually impossible to replicate on non-bonuses hulls. You will never get the same damage application from say a Rattlesnake with either drones or missiles that you will from a Navy Raven or Dominix, and it often proves an effort in futility trying. I'm glad this thread cropped up as I really didn't have any idea as to the damage potential from wreckking shots and thought the grazing, etc. type of shots actually had less of an impact (single as opposed to double digits, which I was a bit taken aback with). It really outlined just how important tracking speed, optimal/falloff and various EW such as webs and painters had on determining the quality of final hits. When players talked about Paladins doing mostly smashing hits with Mega Pulse Lasers and Scorch I freely admit that I didn't get it. Now I do. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5114	Posted - 2016.05.22 23:37:57 - [20] - Quote Aplier Shivra wrote: In general, using dps mods for the first two low slots is almost always the best choice. If you expect to be shooting a lot of targets that will give you accuracy issues (either from range or tracking) then a TE will probably out-perform a 3rd dps mod. It's very hard to model manually though, because dps mods are universal increases, while the TE will only improve application. The best suggestion I can make is to create your fit of choice in a program like EFT, and make several variations with different combinations of dps mods/TEs, then create a dps graph that compares those against a frig, cruiser, and battleship. The visual you get from that should give a better explanation than any raw math formulas. Interesting. You rarely see tracking enhancers as most gun platforms are armor fits (they're more prevalent in shield fits). What's worth noting is that on fits that do utilize tracking computers you almost never see them tracking-scripted. So one has to wonder how much potential DPS they're giving up in the process. I'm going to play around a bit with a pair of omnidirectional tracking enhancers and a tracking-scripted omnidirectional tracking link to see what if any impact or benefit this has on drone performance. I suspect (although cannot yet confirm) that utilizing drones with better overall tracking may be more advantageous than resistant-specific drones. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arthur Aihaken CODE.d 5122	Posted - 2016.05.24 02:44:36 - [21] - Quote Amanda Chan wrote: Was this a serious reply or just a random troll? Either you don't understand what resists are or.....I'm not sure are you just making up numbers to suit your fancy? I think this was already covered a few posts back... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

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