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Is the Zealot too vunerable?

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Tista	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:45:00 - [1] I've never flown this ship but i have killed a few and i wanted to know what sort of combat to use this. Since i fly a pilgrim i usualy distinguish my targets by how much cap use they have. The Zealot is how ever an expensive ship with alot of vunerablities, such as cap, tracking, no drones.. im not sure if it can tank high dps either.. though if used correctly it hurts alot. but im just trying to think of a t2 ship that couldnt beat it.. other than assault frigates just about any other t2 ship could win against this poor amarrian ship. Battleships & Battlecruisers shouldn't have too much trouble either. So my question i put to you is: other than killing t1 cruisers what can the Zealot kill and does anyone have any video footage?
comrade captain	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:52:00 - [2] Edited by: comrade captain on 25/02/2007 11:50:25 I can send you a video of me killing lots of npcs in it on level 3 missions lol. I would not pvp in it as the cost of the ship is far too high, many cheaper ships can do a better job. Its useless for solo pvp but pretty good as part of a small gang as a damage dealer but you could use a geddon for less than half the price inc fittings to do that.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.02.25 11:57:00 - [3] I've used a Zealot for a long time, and imho it needs either a 5th turret, with the PG/CPU to go with it, or a 25m3 drone bay. It tanks well, but it's dps is meh... ------------------------------------------ Every ship has a base 60-70% resist against the primary damage type of the race that is the least able to vary it's damage types.
Tista	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:02:00 - [4] mhmm i think some T2 ships do need a fair boost.. mainly the turret ones. Things such as the Muninn with only 5 turrets.. which is alot better than the Zealot which only has 4 but the munnin deserves maybe one or two more.. also the Deimos needs either a 6th gun placement along with an agility change and a few other bits and pieces.. The eagle needs another gun turret placment because at the moment that ship isn't too good at it's primary function.. which is sniping expecialy since the rohk can do it with insurance and alot better. The same goes for all the Heavy Assault Cruisers.. their battleship counterparts do it alot better.. tank better.. have more DPS.. dont need to be specialised to be fantastic either, along with being cheaper but it is a player owned market so price doesn't come into it.
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.25 12:46:00 - [5] All the pilgrims bonuses exploit the zealots weaknesses. 1) Pilgrim kills the cap the zealot needs to shoot 2) Amarr guns are most affected by tracking disruptors, the pilgrim has an insane bonus to them So in short, its safe to say the pilgrim was designed to kill the zealot.
comrade captain	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:01:00 - [6] hacs should only cost about 15-20 mills, at this price they are brilliant and very easy to replace, but sadly there are too many rich people playing eve and prepared to pay well over the odds at like 200 mill for a ship you can only insure for 15 mill with platinum. If they cost what they should then they would be an excellent and dispensable ship.
Ichabod Crane LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:29:00 - [7] Originally by: comrade captain hacs should only cost about 15-20 mills, at this price they are brilliant and very easy to replace, but sadly there are too many rich people playing eve and prepared to pay well over the odds at like 200 mill for a ship you can only insure for 15 mill with platinum. If they cost what they should then they would be an excellent and dispensable ship. Supply. And. Demand. Why do people persist in whining about the cost of things when its repeatedly explained to them? If you cant afford it, dont fly it. -
Arx Impera Amarr Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:30:00 - [8] Originally by: ScreamingLord Sutch All the pilgrims bonuses exploit the zealots weaknesses. 1) Pilgrim kills the cap the zealot needs to shoot 2) Amarr guns are most affected by tracking disruptors, the pilgrim has an insane bonus to them So in short, its safe to say the pilgrim was designed to kill the zealot. Quote. ...who of course promptly went bat****, flipped out and killed some people.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.02.25 13:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Ichabod Crane Supply. And. Demand. Why do people persist in whining about the cost of things when its repeatedly explained to them? Because supply is, because of the stupid T2 lottery and the brokedness of Invention, much too small for the demand? Not too mention price-gouging producers/resellers... Most of us do understand supply and demand. That doesn't make the current insane prices right, especially when you know the cause of this. Anyways, IBTL
ScreamingLord Sutch Hand in Mouth	Posted - 2007.02.25 15:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Ichabod Crane Supply. And. Demand. Why do people persist in whining about the cost of things when its repeatedly explained to them? Because supply is, because of the stupid T2 lottery and the brokedness of Invention, much too small for the demand? Not too mention price-gouging producers/resellers... Most of us do understand supply and demand. That doesn't make the current insane prices right, especially when you know the cause of this. Then post it in one of the threads on supply and demand or price whines. Theres enough on-topic whines without off-topic ones cluttering up this space.

Ichabod Crane LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.25 18:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Because supply is, because of the stupid T2 lottery and the brokedness of Invention, much too small for the demand? Not too mention price-gouging producers/resellers... Most of us do understand supply and demand. That doesn't make the current insane prices right, especially when you know the cause of this. Actually I dont think you do understand supply and demand in eve. People complain about the state of the t2 market because they're comparing it to the tech1 market and expecting it to be exactly the same. The t2 blueprint/copy distribution system might limit the number of available suppliers on the market but it is not the root cause of the high prices, nor are 'price gougers/resellers'. Tech2 along with officer/faction/deadspace gear is supposedly the best available ingame. Because they are better than base technologies like tech1 there is automatically a higher demand for them and producers/sellers anticipate this and set their prices accordingly. Supply and demand does not relate to their being far more of a demand than suppliers can cope with (infact there is an adequate supply of t2 stuff for the current demand), it just means that the producers can dictate their prices based on what the current demand is. Contrary to popular belief that is not price gouging, its simple capitalism. People see a way of making a profit and exploit that. Despite whatever folks say about selling at a fairer price if they had a t2bpo/could invent, they would do exactly the same if they were in that position because that is the nature of the game. Make as much ISK as you can by whatever means necessary. Which brings me to my point of people comparing tech2 to tech1. The most common argument against tech2 prices and distribution is the fact that unlike tech1 you cant insure t2 ships to their full market price or the t2 gear you fit to a ship vastly outweigh's the price of the vessel, therefore the t2 market is obviously broken and should be fixed. Wrong. The only reason why you can insure a tech1 ship to its full market value (besides insurance going off base production costs) is because the tech1 market is saturated. People are all producing the same thing and competing with each other in pricewars. The end result of this is that you get t1 ships and modules that dont cost a whole lot more than their production costs because t1 producers are being forced to compete. Simply put, if the tech1 market was not saturated like the tech2 market isnt, you'd get the same situation where producers and sellers were setting higher prices than the production costs. Again, its simple capitalism. People see a way of making profit and they do so. The eve economy is meant to be completely unregulated and player driven, which is why the tech1 and 2 markets are as they are now. CCP wont interfere with the economy to the level that the whiners are asking for because you cant have a player driven economy if you regulate the prices. You said that knowing the cause of the 'insane' t2 prices does not justify them. Well I've just explained how the eve economy works to you from my own experience and observations. And I say that yes, based on that it does justify the prices. Whether you agree with those prices or not is irrelevant. Like I said before, if you cant afford it, dont buy it. -
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 18:54:00 - [12] Jepp, it is definately true that the t2 prices are not that high because sellers (and resellers) are pushing them that high, but because the costumers are willing to pay as much. Noone forces people to buy t2 items - especially the most overpriced t2 items, HACs are essentially luxus toys. There is almost nothing what a BC or BS cannot do better. One might argue, though, that the current supply is too low. Is t2 meant to be the rolls royce and ferrari of eve or more the mercedes and audi?
Nylian Amarr	Posted - 2007.02.25 19:01:00 - [13] Holy thread-jack batman. I was really excited the first time I hopped in my zealot... and my excitement quickly turned to dissapointment. I love the hull, the way it looks, and all that jazz, however I was extremely dissapointed in it's performance solo. Can fit a great tank and with beams + t2 ammo the range can be phenominal. Making it great for groups. Either solo or groups I've more damage output with a harbinger.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 20:32:00 - [14] Originally by: Ichabod Crane snip Did you really just argue that tech 2 prices are neither high because of a high demand, low supply or oligopoly? And then go on to argue that they are high because of high demand and low supply? Also, the tech 1 market for ships is nowhere near saturated. Or, if you consider it to be saturated, then the tech 2 market must also be saturated. Since they are all ships and the only thing seperating them is roles. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:30:00 - [15] I think you should look up a definition for market saturation
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated Free Trade Coalition	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:36:00 - [16] Zealot?Its an awesome ship tbh. If you want to pair it up in a fight against a pilgrim the way the zealot might win is to get out of nos range and use highly damaging crystals(can be done because of its range bonus) But i think the zealot is ment to have high damage and a slight tank...Kinda like a mid range deimos with a stronger tank less dps and no dronebay. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr.
Ichabod Crane LFC Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ichabod Crane snip Did you really just argue that tech 2 prices are neither high because of a high demand, low supply or oligopoly? And then go on to argue that they are high because of high demand and low supply? I said neither factor was solely responsible for the prices, and went on to argue that what people were complaining about was basically part of the player economy and therefore not really an issue. Maybe I minced my words. Originally by: Goumindong Also, the tech 1 market for ships is nowhere near saturated. Or, if you consider it to be saturated, then the tech 2 market must also be saturated. Since they are all ships and the only thing seperating them is roles. Market saturation occurs when there are more producers than there are buyers. That forces them to compete with each other to sell their goods which forces the prices right down to near production costs. Now considering your average t2 item usually sells for at least 100% more than its buildcost (depending on demand etc) how exactly is the t2 market saturated? I guess you misread me. Anyway, this is way off topic, thats it for me. -
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Aramendel I think you should look up a definition for market saturation I have. If you go for each ship type then there is less than 50% market saturation for most ships in the game. If you go by roles there is still a low amount of saturation becaue ship roles vary so widly and no races are able to fill all the roles. If you go by just "who has ships" then the market is saturated for both tech 1 and tech 2. Seperating ships by their tech status is stupid and arbitrary. The only ships that i could even think to get close to saturation in eve would be missile ships[BC/BS] because hot damn it seems like everyone and their mom takes 2 weeks off for easy mode ratting. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 21:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Ichabod Crane Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ichabod Crane snip Did you really just argue that tech 2 prices are neither high because of a high demand, low supply or oligopoly? And then go on to argue that they are high because of high demand and low supply? I said neither factor was solely responsible for the prices, and went on to argue that what people were complaining about was basically part of the player economy and therefore not really an issue. Maybe I minced my words. Originally by: Goumindong Also, the tech 1 market for ships is nowhere near saturated. Or, if you consider it to be saturated, then the tech 2 market must also be saturated. Since they are all ships and the only thing seperating them is roles. Market saturation occurs when there are more producers than there are buyers. That forces them to compete with each other to sell their goods which forces the prices right down to near production costs. Now considering your average t2 item usually sells for at least 100% more than its buildcost (depending on demand etc) how exactly is the t2 market saturated? I guess you misread me. Anyway, this is way off topic, thats it for me. Except that there is only one real factor responsible for the high prices. The supply limitation on t2 goods able to be produced by BPOs leads to a perfectly inelastic [in most cases] supply line at the maximum producable quantity. Price then fluxuates entirely based on what the demand is at the time. re: Market saturation No, market saturation is when everybody owns something. Characterized by the number of people in a system who own a product. Tackling frigates are saturized because everyone has a tackling frigate[or 4]. Saturatization has nothing to do with the number of producers or consumers. And similalry neither does price since the number of each is irrelevent, but the number demanded is not. What I am trying to say is that you dont have a clue what you are talking about and are confusing people who may want to know without being misinformed. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 22:04:00 - [20] Originally by: Goumindong If you go by just "who has ships" then the market is saturated for both tech 1 and tech 2. Seperating ships by their tech status is stupid and arbitrary. To the contrary, NOT doing this is stupid. An item is not = an item just because you can file them under the same letter. Quality is a major difference between items of the same general type. Just because the market for rolls royce is saturated it does not mean that the one for volkswagens is saturated, too. Don't even try to argue with me here, I won't bother to waste time because you a stubborn.

Aberash eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.02.25 22:15:00 - [21] Zealot does amazing damage and is good in gangs, but your right, poor cap, very fragile imo give it a drone bay to make it a bit better... but tbh will never happen so
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.25 22:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Goumindong If you go by just "who has ships" then the market is saturated for both tech 1 and tech 2. Seperating ships by their tech status is stupid and arbitrary. To the contrary, NOT doing this is stupid. An item is not = an item just because you can file them under the same letter. Quality is a major difference between items of the same general type. Just because the market for rolls royce is saturated it does not mean that the one for volkswagens is saturated, too. Don't even try to argue with me here, I won't bother to waste time because you a stubborn. Yes, but then you have to differentiate between quality of the same general type. Which means the tech 1 market isnt saturated. You dont need a population growth for more people to buy moas. You just have to convince them that training caldari cruiser and buying them is worthwhile. The only way the tech 1 market is saturated and the tech 2 is not, is if are using arbitrary destinctions that dont help us define the market. Its like saying "The market for cars is saturated because everyone has a car, but the market for Rolls Royces is not, because not everyone has a Rolls Royce" ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2007.02.25 22:29:00 - [23] "Is the Zealot too vunerable?" Yes. with 4 Heavy Pulse laser II's 3 Heatsink II's, an MAR II and 3 resistance platings on top of HAC resistance bonuses and HAC's 4 bonuses, the Zealot still cannot kill a good BC pilot in a respectable time. It can even stuggle against a well tanked Tech 1 cruiser. It is a gank ship that has a bit of trouble ganking before its tank runs out. As for how to fix it, leave that to goumindong or someone else who likes to fix stuff. ---------------- Freedom Of Speech Band of Brothers T-shirt
Tista	Posted - 2007.02.25 22:32:00 - [24] mhmm agreed it cant really gank
Leshrac Shepherd Amarr Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2007.02.25 22:44:00 - [25] The Zealot is a fine ship that's struggling in the current setup ecosystem of nosses, neutralizers and 80% to EM resistance tanks.
Angus McLean Gallente Divinity Trials	Posted - 2007.02.25 23:15:00 - [26] Originally by: Leshrac Shepherd The Zealot is a fine ship that's struggling in the current setup ecosystem of nosses, neutralizers and 80% to EM resistance tanks. So what your really saying is that the Zealot isnt a fine ship. . The Zealot is only a fine ship when current issues are resolved, until then it is still vunerable. ---------------- Freedom Of Speech Band of Brothers T-shirt
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.25 23:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong You dont need a population growth for more people to buy moas. Actually you do. Of cource, people need to replace destroyed moas, but that is a constant factor - it does not increase or decrease suddenly. Quote: Its like saying "The market for cars is saturated because everyone has a car, but the market for Rolls Royces is not, because not everyone has a Rolls Royce" To the contrary. Each "quality lvl" has a different clientbase. So essentially a different quality lvl is just the same thing as a different item alltogether for the market. As said, you cannot simpyl throw both in the same pot.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:12:00 - [28] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Goumindong You dont need a population growth for more people to buy moas. Actually you do. Of cource, people need to replace destroyed moas, but that is a constant factor - it does not increase or decrease suddenly. Quote: Its like saying "The market for cars is saturated because everyone has a car, but the market for Rolls Royces is not, because not everyone has a Rolls Royce" To the contrary. Each "quality lvl" has a different clientbase. So essentially a different quality lvl is just the same thing as a different item alltogether for the market. As said, you cannot simpyl throw both in the same pot. No you dont. If i want a moa i simply train caldari cruiser and then buy a moa. It does not require more people entering the system. This is why you can say the market isnt saturated. There are 100 people and 50 are without shoes, but they dont want shoes. Them wanting shoes is not a population increase, and at that point, your market is not saturated. The market for caldari cruisers isnt saturated, there is a significant portion of the population that does not own any. When a market is saturated, a sale of brand X must nessesarily take away sales from all brands not X without a population increase. Is the market for Rolls Royces saturated? Yes, if they had not bought a Rolls Royce they would have bought something else, thus denying market share. Just as the less qualitative markets are saturated. This is not the case for ships of any sort. Saying that saturation has anything to do with cost is ridiculous. Saturation has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with market dynamics between competiting entities. Price is predcited by supply and demand, and we can quite easily determine the point where the supply becomes perfectly elasticitic, which is the single largest determining factor in tech 2 prices. The next is obviously demand. I.E. the number of buyers and the number of sellers. Not the percentage of people who own a good. If you want some good reading on the subject, Mankiw is easy to get into and iformative. He only does textbooks, but they read very well for textbooks. I hear Krugman has a good laymans book out, but I havent read it, so i cant comment on its quality. ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:42:00 - [29] Originally by: Goumindong No you dont. If i want a moa i simply train caldari cruiser and then buy a moa. It does not require more people entering the system. This is why you can say the market isnt saturated. Again, no, it is just the opposite. From the original quote: ...the market is said to be saturated i.e. further growth of sales of refrigerators will occur basically only as a result of population growth and in cases where one manufacturer is able to gain market share at the expense of others.... If people train for the moa they are switching to it from another ship. That ship looses market share. The moa gains market share. It's a sign for a saturated market. Quote: Saying that saturation has anything to do with cost is ridiculous. Saturation has nothing to do with cost and everything to do with market dynamics between competiting entities. It has quite a lot to do with saturation. The price, or better: the profit margin is a direct result of the market saturation. If the supply can meet (or overtake) the demand we have a saturated market, because everyone who wants that item can get it for around the production cost. If there is less supply than demand the market isn't saturated. As direct result the price gets higher because this is the only way to balance demand with supply. If you have 20 items and 100 people would buy it for production cost, 50 for twice the production cost and 20 for three times it's production cost the product will be sold for three times the production cost. Basically, the higher the profit margin of a product is the more possible buyers compate for it (and rise the price as result). If there is competition the market isn't saturated, because if it would there would be no competition between the buyers since there would be enough for everyone.
Siakel	Posted - 2007.02.26 04:17:00 - [30] Originally by: Aberash Zealot does amazing damage and is good in gangs, but your right, poor cap, very fragile Indeed. Damage so amazing, it outdamages both the Sacrilege, and the Eagle, both of which are known to be DPS monsters. (Note: It gets outdamaged by the Deimos, Ishtar, Vagabond, Muninn, and Heavy Assault Missile Cerberus, while giving up all versatility and managing only a mediocre tank to do so, but hey.. it's Amarr, so that's good enough, right?)



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