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Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:36:00 - [1] Before anyone starts, yes, this thread will be addressing the subject of devs and GMs playing the game. I'm going to use a BoB as an example, but I have NO doubts that GMs and devs play in other corps/alliances too. The question is, what is the effect on the game? Does this affect players? By their very nature devs and GMs know things about the game that players do not. Is this fair to the players? Even if they use the same clients, it is a serious advantage. Further, if they do not use the same client, or allow themselves to use information avalible to them as GMs/devs in the course of the game, is that cheating? IS it fair? There are many who hold up BoB's continued state of being the 'winningest' alliance based on thier rumoured GM/dev presence. I myself vaguely recall one of the artists posting on these forums using thier BoB character. Even if untrue, it raises a distinct possibility that the alliance would be undefeatable, and therefor, why bother? Further, does protecting one's own character/alliance factor into GM/dev decision making? Even if it's not deliberate, surely at some level they wonder what the resault will be for thier characters. I'd like some of the GMs and/or devs to comment on this. Preferably by doing something other then locking the post, which seems to be the trend today when BoB is mentioned.. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Trade Witch	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:40:00 - [2] ANOTHER thread on this? cmon
Valkazm Amarr ECP Rogues Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:40:00 - [3] personally i think devs are 90 % bored of eve playing spending all there time with it over the years working with it .. and once BoB is gone this wont be a topic anymore And i doubt they would be stupid enough to do anything comprimasing after what the last bit of info caused .. Step into the darkness
Chemo Emo	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:42:00 - [4] Next you'll be complaining about RL politics. BG.
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:44:00 - [5] why why why
St Dragon Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Trade Witch ANOTHER thread on this? cmon ANOTHER BoB alt i see ----------------------------------------------- "Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Jean Rostand
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Trade Witch ANOTHER thread on this? cmon There will be threads on it until it's answered. I'm certainly not the only one to find this a subject of concern. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
hotgirl933	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:47:00 - [8] the top 8 alliance head are all GM alts - there u go something to think baout
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:50:00 - [9] Originally by: hotgirl933 the top 8 alliance head are all GM alts - there u go something to think baout And you don't find that the least bit disturbing or unfair to the players? Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Sinister Death Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:52:00 - [10] Quote: but I have NO doubts that GMs and devs play in other corps/alliances too. Good cuz they told you they do. Quote: The question is, what is the effect on the game? Does this affect players? They have said they use their roles in the game as ways of knowing how gameplay ACTUALLY happens. How does it affect the players? Pretty much in everyway possible. When you didn't like the latest nerf... blame your dev... when you liked the way missiones now run... praise your dev.... (etc etc etc) Quote: By their very nature devs and GMs know things about the game that players do not. Is this fair to the players? Even if they use the same clients, it is a serious advantage. It has been that way since Day 1 of the game. No documentation (other than player created), Little Dev interaction with the community except for what corps / alliances they were secretly apart of. If this was a change since the begining... IE they used to give documentation and now they don't... ok then we have an issue. But they have NEVER given reliable patch notes, never given ANY documenation into their game (the "official player guide" was done by ISD, not the devs), and they will never address those issues. We all know they are there, let's finally get over the fact after 3 years and realize it's not gonna happen. If you find something you think is weird... petition it and see if it's legit... if it is... you can choose to share or not to gain personal advantedge form it like everyone else. Quote: There are many who hold up BoB's continued state of being the 'winningest' alliance based on thier rumoured GM/dev presence. This is the same BS that happened when the 5 rolled around Eve, and when m0o rolled around eve. Whoevever is uber at any given moment, those that feel inadequate on any level, will roll around whining "why me... why can't i have the dev... they are uber obviously it's cuz they have the dev stick this go around." This will never go away while one side feels downtrodden by another side. "Obviously the reason that the node crashed is cuz they are using Devs.... " (Maybe it could have been the 1500 people we brought to camp a gate when we know the servers can only hold 2-3 per system) Quote: Even if untrue, it raises a distinct possibility that the alliance would be undefeatable, and therefor, why bother? m0o, The Five, BoB.... pick your flavor of "why bother, they are so uber" Next year who knows... maybe it will be Minmatar * Liberation Front that will be the next DEV alliance corp. Do what is always done, play your game and join them or fight the "ubers" and they will win or lose and you can continue playing or "take an official leave of abscense" while you contemplate whether another game is worth your money since you obviously got bested by a Dev. Or you will have fun and join the "dev" alliance / corp and realize that you were full of crap and that they have better tactics, have some of the oldest players in the game... en mass. They know the ins and outs of the game... because they have been around here for almost 4 years versus their enemies who might have beeen around since maybe 2. Trust me... why bother, is the question that drives you in this game. If you can answer it you will do well... if you can't your not long for this game play. Quote:** Further, does protecting one's own character/alliance factor into GM/dev decision making? Even if it's not deliberate, surely at some level they wonder what the resault will be for thier characters. Exactly how would one protect their own char / alliance as a Dev? Unless you mean that while this game is supposed to be balanced as a Industrial / NPC / PVP environment the developers continually say "more pew pew" at every fanfest and the only things that take priority are "pew pew" toys. Yes i could see how that is. I would also agree it sucks but again... they aren't hiding it, they have said they care about PVP. Anyways my 2cents. . . The opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone. They don't represent my corp, alliance or family.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.26 00:54:00 - [11] Given how absolutely garbage many people are at this game, the dev's advantage and the inherent advantage of anyone who actually knows how to play do not have a large relative difference. -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Sinister Death It has been that way since Day 1 of the game. No documentation (other than player created), Little Dev interaction with the community except for what corps / alliances they were secretly apart of. If this was a change since the begining... IE they used to give documentation and now they don't... ok then we have an issue. But they have NEVER given reliable patch notes, never given ANY documenation into their game (the "official player guide" was done by ISD, not the devs), and they will never address those issues. We all know they are there, let's finally get over the fact after 3 years and realize it's not gonna happen. If you find something you think is weird... petition it and see if it's legit... if it is... you can choose to share or not to gain personal advantedge form it like everyone else. Yes, but is that a overpowering advantage to them that they know and we don't? The answer can only be yes. Secondly, is the devs obsession with PvP becomming a game quality issue? I think the answer to that is quickly becoming yes, as well. And that scares me, because it will spell the end of EVE. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Hauler McTote	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:23:00 - [13] Quote: Given how absolutely garbage many people are at this game, the dev's advantage and the inherent advantage of anyone who actually knows how to play do not have a large relative difference. Drivel, pure and simple. So according to you, a Dev, in a game shaking Alliance, in a Command position cant make much of a difference? Either you are eating the wrong leaves and berries or just a yes-man fanboy.
B1G DAVE Mining and Research Industrial Organisation Hell Hounds	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Crumplecorn Given how absolutely garbage many people are at this game, the dev's advantage and the inherent advantage of anyone who actually knows how to play do not have a large relative difference. So I am to assume you know everything there is to know about the game, which gives you the right to call other people garbage? Or am I missing something here?
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea Originally by: hotgirl933 the top 8 alliance head are all GM alts - there u go something to think baout And you don't find that the least bit disturbing or unfair to the players? Only if they used methods to aquire their power that cannot be used by rule-abiding players. If a new alliance formed, and 3 years from now it's flying around controlling half of 0.0, and it turns out the directors are alts of tux, tomb, oveur, kieron, and hellmar, I honestly won't care as long as they didn't cheat to get that power. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:31:00 - [16] Hi! I'm trying to find out where I can download a form so I can sign up for the dev witch-hunt! Can someone help me out with it? Thanks! -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:38:00 - [17] Originally by: jamesw Hi! I'm trying to find out where I can download a form so I can sign up for the dev witch-hunt! Can someone help me out with it? Thanks! Personally I don't care where the devs are per se, but the issue that this is an issue at all is what concerns me. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Kyoi	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:39:00 - [18] "I'm going to use a BoB as an example" What a surprise
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:42:00 - [19] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea Originally by: hotgirl933 the top 8 alliance head are all GM alts - there u go something to think baout And you don't find that the least bit disturbing or unfair to the players? Only if they used methods to aquire their power that cannot be used by rule-abiding players. If a new alliance formed, and 3 years from now it's flying around controlling half of 0.0, and it turns out the directors are alts of tux, tomb, oveur, kieron, and hellmar, I honestly won't care as long as they didn't cheat to get that power. Well, the question is, how much power can be derived from knowing things that only the devs and gms know? For example, knowing what mins will be needed for a new ship, or about an upcoming buff or nerf might make some serious isk for them while the rest of us are in the dark until one of thier somewhat incomplete patch notes comes out. Is that powerful? Is it a potential abuse? Who watches the watchers? Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Kyoi "I'm going to use a BoB as an example" What a surprise I felt it best to go with a well known example. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Sobrenus	Posted - 2007.02.26 01:59:00 - [21] Cygnet Lythanea, You have asked a really good question... I'm a administrator on a CS game servers, so I could see anything that people are telling each other, even in team chat. I should not take it as a information for my gameplay, but... sometimes becuase I'm a human being I use it.. And I'm sure, that everybody will be tempted tooooo hard not to do this. And the GM and dev's they know MUCH more then an advanced player, who even played a lot - because they know math formulas on how the server is calculating everything. Eve is not a lottery, EVE is a pure 100% math. So it I know how the server calculates domination spawns - I will do all from my site to "help him" - just an example. So IMHO - yes, they DO HAVE a better "gameplay" then a regulary old eve player. P.S. And I'm not talking bout answering on they own petitions
Sinister Death Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:05:00 - [22] Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea Yes, but is that a overpowering advantage to them that they know and we don't? The answer can only be yes. Secondly, is the devs obsession with PvP becomming a game quality issue? I think the answer to that is quickly becoming yes, as well. And that scares me, because it will spell the end of EVE. But that's the same logic that's always governed CCP and PVP. They want bigger, badder, better PVP. They think that's what keeps their playerbase happy.... Honestly for the past 3 years even though i've thought different on many occassions they have been right. Steadily increased account building. The only thing suffering is their growth for PVP, but the code or the servers... but given the number of upgrades... I'm seriously thinking it's the code... no longer can support the PVP environment they want to build. 1000 vs 1000 man fights is what this game is built for.... And their are meant to be 3 distinct levels to the game.... Solo, Corp, Alliance. Not corps that can be as big as an alliance or soloists that have as much ability as a corp. With the Generation of the Titan and DDs and such... you are seeing the truly seperation of Solo, Corp and Alliance (where corp and alliance have been a very fine line split by the addition of a chat / evemail window). Now you have territory and weapons that can destroy corps in a single blast. It's making the game interesting again, and making alliances finally worth a dang to invest a bilion isk in forming. As for the OP. I don't think there is any advantedge / disadvantedge to having devs in alliances. Let's take for a minute the smallest scenario... let's say: Dev A and Dev B Get together and share info on their alliances. This already happens with corp spies, metagaming (involving hacking sites and stuff) so who cares if a dev is an alliance and your "secrets" are being shared. Just consider the devs another player (with the ability to nerf your ship in the next patch) but while they are playing they will follow the same Eve-tonian physics you follow. They have no matrix code built into their client. Any deja-vu's do eventually get followed up with SOME sort of consequences. And as a player base, just like in RL when a crime is committed... sometimes you don't get the justice you want... sometimes it's the justice that's fair. . . The opinions expressed above are mine, and mine alone. They don't represent my corp, alliance or family.
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Sobrenus Cygnet Lythanea, You have asked a really good question... I'm a administrator on a CS game servers, so I could see anything that people are telling each other, even in team chat. I should not take it as a information for my gameplay, but... sometimes becuase I'm a human being I use it.. And I'm sure, that everybody will be tempted tooooo hard not to do this. And the GM and dev's they know MUCH more then an advanced player, who even played a lot - because they know math formulas on how the server is calculating everything. Eve is not a lottery, EVE is a pure 100% math. So it I know how the server calculates domination spawns - I will do all from my site to "help him" - just an example. So IMHO - yes, they DO HAVE a better "gameplay" then a regulary old eve player. P.S. And I'm not talking bout answering on they own petitions Well, thank you for the compliment, and for answering. I've worked on a lot of MMOs in one capacity or other, and EVE always struck me as odd that the dev staff and GMs were allowed to play the game on the public server. Most of the ones that I've worked on (no names due to NonDisclosure) bypassed this issue by not permitting that. Not that it didn't happen anyway, but it was frowned opon. Not that anyone can tell Hellmar 'No, you can't be that Uber in game' but it seems ot be that the devs and GMs need to stop and consider how much thier own play style is effecting thier development choices. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:17:00 - [24] Originally by: Sinister Death As for the OP. I don't think there is any advantedge / disadvantedge to having devs in alliances. Let's take for a minute the smallest scenario... let's say: Dev A and Dev B Get together and share info on their alliances. This already happens with corp spies, metagaming (involving hacking sites and stuff) so who cares if a dev is an alliance and your "secrets" are being shared. Just consider the devs another player (with the ability to nerf your ship in the next patch) but while they are playing they will follow the same Eve-tonian physics you follow. They have no matrix code built into their client. Any deja-vu's do eventually get followed up with SOME sort of consequences. And as a player base, just like in RL when a crime is committed... sometimes you don't get the justice you want... sometimes it's the justice that's fair. Spying is the least of any alliances problems, really. Consider the fact that a dev has the inside line on so many things. Not just tacticaly, but financily Consider the above post from the CS server op. There is real advantage in knowing far more about the math behind events in EVE then the average player does. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:19:00 - [25] Given that there is an even spread of devs across most alliances, do you think that would really be an advantage to anyone in particular? -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:30:00 - [26] Originally by: jamesw Given that there is an even spread of devs across most alliances, do you think that would really be an advantage to anyone in particular? Considering the number of alliances, I find that hard to belive. My basic point is that having the devs in game is unfair at a basic level, particularly as PvP oriented as Eve is, in EVERY manner. It's almost a personal Iwin button for the dev. Do they use it? Dunno. Maybe. I've heard of people abuseing it before. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Yuki Bara	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:31:00 - [27] What I'd wonder about is if there are hidden commands that the devs and such can use. The Alliance to alliance bonus for having a Dev isn't much my concern, but the player vs player is.
jamesw Omniscient Order	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Cygnet Lythanea Originally by: jamesw Given that there is an even spread of devs across most alliances, do you think that would really be an advantage to anyone in particular? Considering the number of alliances, I find that hard to belive. My basic point is that having the devs in game is unfair at a basic level, particularly as PvP oriented as Eve is, in EVERY manner. It's almost a personal Iwin button for the dev. Do they use it? Dunno. Maybe. I've heard of people abuseing it before. Re my statement on a roughly even spread - that was made in either a dev blog or post recently, i am trying to find it. Re devs playing the game at all - What is your suggestion then? That they don't play the game? EVE is what it is because the devs and GM's are also players. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. -- Latest Vid: Domination!
Cygnet Lythanea The Eiken Club	Posted - 2007.02.26 02:55:00 - [29] Originally by: jamesw Re devs playing the game at all - What is your suggestion then? That they don't play the game? EVE is what it is because the devs and GM's are also players. Considering some of the still unfixed non-PvP bugs in the game... that's not a sterling endorsment. coughMobile Labscough I think that hte GM and Devs are focusing too much on thier own personal play styles and not enough on the other aspects of the game. More Pew Pew, who gives a damn if POS is broken. Notice that POS combat was given a far higher priority then non-combat revisions. And as far as solo vs corp vs alliance combat, I might point out that solos now own carriers and even a mothership or two. They just use an alt to help them move it around. I would suggest watching what the players are actually doing, rather then focusing on what the Devs think is fun, as a way to remove the disparity from the game. Wow: my sig was hijacked! Does that mean I win EVE???
Mar Idoun Aurora Empire Fuzzy Nut Attack Squirrels	Posted - 2007.02.26 03:17:00 - [30] Edited by: Mar Idoun on 26/02/2007 03:17:04 I think this is a legitimate ethics question, even if it has been asked many times especially given the past hiring practices used by CCP -- e.g. hiring interns from the player base (if anyone can remember when CCP essentially advertised and encouraged players with the proper credentials and degree of education to send in a CV/Resume to apply to be a GM/Intern in Iceland at the CCP offices <-- I think this is cool and wish they were hiring North Americans, i would have done it in a heartbeat). I think the proper way to ask the question is this: Is it ethical for someone with inside information to play an active role in an alliance? Or play at all? a fictional example (any likeness to an actual situation is purely coincidental): An Eve employee is a POS manager, or an FC taking out enemy POSes; If this employee has seen, or even written any of the POS code, is this an unfair advantage? of course it's not black and white; the grey area, depending on how one posits the arguement, can be huge. The Black and the White would be a situation like CCP had recently with the BPOs and the Grey (I think) being the spectrum of my question and example. Moreover, it seems CCPs policy is pretty plain and simple: How can you make a game you don't want to play, or, at least, don't like to play yourself if you don't actually play it?. A lot of good comes out of devs playing, but as we now know, a lot of bad too. In the end, it's CCP's game and CCP's company. If you don't agree then there is an option under 'My Account' to your left where you can cancel your subscription and even give the reason why. but don't be hasty to criticize this question. I think it should be asked everyday by the players, the Devs and the front office of CCP. edited for clarity

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