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Brian Kith	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:05:00 - [1] Clearly, I'm not "getting" Optimal and Falloff ranges. I thought I understood . . . but apparently not. I thought that "Optimal" was somewhat akin to "Maximum" range on a turret. I thought that "Falloff" was the range under which the accuracy of the turret decreased. So, I look at the skill "Trajectory Analysis" . . . a 5% bonus to weapon falloff per level. GREAT! So I train the first level, expecting to see my "Falloff" range decrease, enabling me to hit targets closer to myself. Bzzt. Wrong. We have some nice parting gifts for you. My "Falloff" range INCREASED. Is this a bug? Is it me, do I not understand "Falloff" correctly?
Estel Arador Minmatar AFK	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:08:00 - [2] The Tracking Guide covers this. =AFK=
Kojirochan InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:08:00 - [3] Optimal is in its name, Optimal. Its your weapons best distance to do max damage. I know the falloff is when your guns start lossing there accuracy. Some boff will give you the exact workings out no doubt :)
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:09:00 - [4] Ship===========Optimal======================Falloff========================Max Between your ship and your optimal, your range has no affect (ofc tracking does). Between Optimal and Max your % chance to hit (based on range alone) goes from 100% to 0%. The falloff distance is the distance at which you have a 50% chance of hitting. Optimal+2xFalloff=Max=The range beyond which you simply can't hit anything. Least that's how they learned us it in flight school -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
Brian Solusek	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:29:00 - [5] Originally by: Crumplecorn Ship===========Optimal======================Falloff========================Max Between your ship and your optimal, your range has no affect (ofc tracking does). Between Optimal and Max your % chance to hit (based on range alone) goes from 100% to 0%. The falloff distance is the distance at which you have a 50% chance of hitting. Optimal+2xFalloff=Max=The range beyond which you simply can't hit anything. Least that's how they learned us it in flight school Ok, that doesn't make sense. When I examine my turrets, my Falloff range is always less than my Optimal range. Usually a lot less. For instance, take the 150mm Compressed Coil Gun I, loaded with Tungsten charges. This is my current Primary weapon group on my Cormorant. "Optimal" range lists as 39km, "Falloff" range lists as 6300m . . . This combo hits effectively as soon as I can lock a target - about 40k. Once it gets under 6000, the gun can't hit anything. I just don't "get it" . . . or there is a bug.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:32:00 - [6] that means at 39km you hit at 100% and then the chance reduces over the falloff distance, after that =) ------ Relaxed corp recruiting
elohllird Gallente Constructive Influence	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:34:00 - [7] you add the fall off to the optimal
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:36:00 - [8] Originally by: Brian Solusek Originally by: Crumplecorn Ship===========Optimal======================Falloff========================Max Between your ship and your optimal, your range has no affect (ofc tracking does). Between Optimal and Max your % chance to hit (based on range alone) goes from 100% to 0%. The falloff distance is the distance at which you have a 50% chance of hitting. Optimal+2xFalloff=Max=The range beyond which you simply can't hit anything. Least that's how they learned us it in flight school Ok, that doesn't make sense. When I examine my turrets, my Falloff range is always less than my Optimal range. Usually a lot less. For instance, take the 150mm Compressed Coil Gun I, loaded with Tungsten charges. This is my current Primary weapon group on my Cormorant. "Optimal" range lists as 39km, "Falloff" range lists as 6300m . . . This combo hits effectively as soon as I can lock a target - about 40k. Once it gets under 6000, the gun can't hit anything. I just don't "get it" . . . or there is a bug. Oh, yeah, should'a mentioned that, falloff is the distance from your optimal to the 50% not from your ship. -------------------- Verone for President of EVE
Brian Kith	Posted - 2007.02.26 16:57:00 - [9] Ok, after playing with the tracking guide (thanks for that link, very nice) I think this skill is bugged. In order for my weapons to gain "a 5% bonus to Falloff" as the skill states, the Falloff distance would need to DECREASE. I think this is weapon dependant, as some weapons Optimal range is less than the Falloff range. Basically, Trajectory Analysis should DECREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is less than Optimal, and INCREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is greater than Optimal. How would I report that?
Zaqar	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Brian Kith Ok, after playing with the tracking guide (thanks for that link, very nice) I think this skill is bugged. In order for my weapons to gain "a 5% bonus to Falloff" as the skill states, the Falloff distance would need to DECREASE. I think this is weapon dependant, as some weapons Optimal range is less than the Falloff range. Basically, Trajectory Analysis should DECREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is less than Optimal, and INCREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is greater than Optimal. How would I report that? It makes your faloff longer, as intended. Before skill: Ship---------Optimal------falloff-----Max After skill: Ship---------Optimal-------falloff------Max
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:08:00 - [11] If a gun has a optimal range of lets say 40 km. Then you have your bests hits between 0km and 40km. Of course you need to be able to track the enemy, which becomes more and more difficult the close the enemy is and the faster it zooms around you. Now let's assume that the gun has a falloff of 20km. Then you can hit a nonmoving object in 40 (optimal) + 20 (falloff) = 60km range with a 50% chance. But if you go beyond optimal + 2 * falloff, here 80km, you have really a very difficult time to place a hit, the object is just too far away. Usually it is good to fire at objects which are around the optimal range away. Because then you hit with best chances and tracking should be still not too bad. Things are difficult, but there is a good tutorial about guns, tracking, optimal and falloff.
Brian Kith	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:13:00 - [12] AHHHH!!!! Ok, light bulb moment there. Thank you. So, I take the Optimal range. At Optimal, I can pretty much hit anything. I can still hit at GREATER than optimal range, but my chances of hitting decrease up to Optimal + Falloff at which point my chances of hitting are basically crap. My problems hitting targets close to me are a product of a very high Transversal velocity and a relatively low tracking speed on the turrets. In order to increase the chances of hitting targets close to myself, I need to take skills which increase my turret tracking speed. Thank you all.
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Brian Kith Ok, after playing with the tracking guide (thanks for that link, very nice) I think this skill is bugged. In order for my weapons to gain "a 5% bonus to Falloff" as the skill states, the Falloff distance would need to DECREASE. I think this is weapon dependant, as some weapons Optimal range is less than the Falloff range. Basically, Trajectory Analysis should DECREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is less than Optimal, and INCREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is greater than Optimal. How would I report that? riiiiiiiight... now listen, ill type slowly to help you understand: Your range worth to shoot = optimal+falloff. Optimal range is the distance, where you have 100% chance to hit a target (not counting tracking). Falloff is the range, which INRCEASES your range somewhat, giving you chance based hit, at the end of the falloff range you have about 50% chance of hitting a target. So if you have 20 km optimal and 8 km falloff, you shall have about 50% chance to hit a target (not counting tracking) at 28 Km range. If your falloff increases, to 10 km, you will have 50% chance to hit a target at 30 km (20+10, right?). So having bigger falloff is better, because you hit more often to a given distance. In this case, if you train this skill and your falloff increases from 8 Km to 10 Km, you will have more chance to hit a target at 28 Km. Decreasing falloff is stupid, because you will decrease your range. Noone would train a skill, which nerfs the range. ________________________________________________
Culmen Caldari Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:18:00 - [14] Originally by: Brian Kith Ok, after playing with the tracking guide (thanks for that link, very nice) I think this skill is bugged. In order for my weapons to gain "a 5% bonus to Falloff" as the skill states, the Falloff distance would need to DECREASE. I think this is weapon dependant, as some weapons Optimal range is less than the Falloff range. Basically, Trajectory Analysis should DECREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is less than Optimal, and INCREASE the Falloff distance when Falloff is greater than Optimal. How would I report that? i dont think you under stand fall off is a good thing, the higher the better for example, consider your optimal is 10km and your falloff is 5km at 10km you have a 100% chance of hitting (provided your tracking is good enough) however at 15km (10km +5km) your tracking allows you to hit 50% of the time 20 km however is your maximum range, since its 10km+5km+5km, your hit chance is 0% also tracking is just a number, it says nothing about your maximum range 5% bonus to tracking gives you a new fall out of 5.25 km meaning you hit 50% at 15.25km, and more then 50% at 15 its not broken, because it benifits both short range guns and long range guns (though i would say it benifits shortrange guns more, because they tend to have higher ROFs and shorter optimals) _____________________________________________________ Why do i even need a sig?
Culmen Caldari Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Brian Kith AHHHH!!!! Ok, light bulb moment there. Thank you. So, I take the Optimal range. At Optimal, I can pretty much hit anything. I can still hit at GREATER than optimal range, but my chances of hitting decrease up to Optimal + Falloff at which point my chances of hitting are basically crap. My problems hitting targets close to me are a product of a very high Transversal velocity and a relatively low tracking speed on the turrets. In order to increase the chances of hitting targets close to myself, I need to take skills which increase my turret tracking speed. Thank you all. you pretty much got it down jsut that your maximum range is actually optimum + fallout x 2 at optimum + fallout you hit 50% of the time at optimum + fallout + fallout, you hit 0% of the time _____________________________________________________ Why do i even need a sig?
Mikal Drey Purgatorial Janitors Inc.	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:21:00 - [16] Hey hey Optimal = 100% hits but greatly affected by tracking + Falloff = 50% hits but less affect of tracking + Beyond optimal+falloff further diminishing chance to hit
Wulfstan Caldari The Sweeney	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Brian Kith AHHHH!!!! Ok, light bulb moment there. Thank you. So, I take the Optimal range. At Optimal, I can pretty much hit anything. I can still hit at GREATER than optimal range, but my chances of hitting decrease up to Optimal + Falloff at which point my chances of hitting are basically crap. My problems hitting targets close to me are a product of a very high Transversal velocity and a relatively low tracking speed on the turrets. In order to increase the chances of hitting targets close to myself, I need to take skills which increase my turret tracking speed. Thank you all. Basically you're spot on now, but there is another thing to take into account. Between your ship and optimal, you have a basic chance of 100% to hit something. This is modified by the traversal speed of the target, and the tracking rate of your guns. It is ALSO modified by the signature radius of the target and the signature radius of your guns. ie if you are firing battleship (large) guns at a frigate (small), tracking perfectly and inside your optimal range, you will still have only about a 25% chance of hitting him. This can be dealt with to an extent by fitting one of more target painter modules, that expand your target's signature radius.
Larkonis Trassler g guild	Posted - 2007.02.26 17:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Kojirochan Optimal is in its name, Optimal. Its your weapons best distance to do max damage. I know the falloff is when your guns start lossing there accuracy. Some boff will give you the exact workings out no doubt :) Myth. At Optimal assuming you can track and Targets Sig Res is > your turret Sig Res you will hit 100% of the time. This idea that if the target is closer than your optimal you will struggle to hit is complete tosh. At Optimal+Falloff you will hit 50% of the time (assuming you can track/sig res is good) and at Optimal+2x Falloff you hit 1% of the time. Easy ------------ Request for Privateer Sticky! Keep the forums clean!

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