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Lisbeth Riraille
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:05:23 -
[1] - Quote
A thread in another forum got me thinking about banks.
I know there have been ponzi scheme scam banks run by players, but has anyone ever troed running a legitimate borrrowing/saving service in Eve?
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KaarBaak
326
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:08:06 -
[2] - Quote
Nope. Has never been attempted. /s
Send be your deposit ($1bn minimum) and I'll send you regular bank statements. /s
It's been attempted several times and always ends in someone running off with the cash. There is no reliable, built-in mechanic for security, therefore you have to rely on something called "trust" which, AFAIK is not an in-game item. |
Starbuck05
modro
I N F A M O U S
351
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:10:49 -
[3] - Quote
The ideea seems nice at its core tbh , specially for the non plex warriors... But imho ..it will never happen in eve purely because of the player base itself .
Even if someone wants to make and run a legit banking service , trustworthy as he mai be and never ever scamming anyone ..he's bound to get scammed himself sooner or later ...thats just how eve is , that is what eve is !
So either the banker scams or he gets scammed ...one way or another thats just how its gonna go down eventually.
But if someone is rich enough to have a good start /recuperate after ..then maybe.
Just because i am blond does not make me stoopid !
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Lisbeth Riraille
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:22:53 -
[4] - Quote
Hm, maybe it needs to be tried again. How hard can it be? You just lend money out at 7% and take deposits for 4%, sort of jobbie, right? |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
12123
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:31:14 -
[5] - Quote
The game lacks any mechanisms for this kind of financial institution - basically, everything is going to be dependant on the trustworthiness of others (hint: if they have a moustache, they're good to go). There's simply nothing to prevent one lone banker (or the whole institution, more likely) just running away with the deposits.
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
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Pix Severus
Empty You
4553
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:31:55 -
[6] - Quote
There are very few players in EVE right now who could run a successful bank, and it's due to the trust they have built-up over the last decade or so.
Unless one of those players decides to run a bank, you should just forget about it.
-ì-ä-à -£-à+¦-äGêâ-Ç
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Galaxxis
Unicorn Rampage
112
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Posted - 2016.05.25 17:39:14 -
[7] - Quote
As others have pointed out, the mechanisms don't exist in-game to make this viable. It would have to be entirely trust-based, and since this is a foreign concept to virtually the entire player base I don't see it panning out. Maybe that's for the best. Money isn't particularly hard to make; there are a million different activities you can do. |
KaarBaak
332
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Posted - 2016.05.25 18:07:35 -
[8] - Quote
Think about this, too: In order to be profitable, banks need to loan money (you don't make anything holding onto folks' isk and paying interest).
So an honest-looking chap in a moustache comes in and asks for 3Bn isk for his new nullsec production enterprise. You'll need to secure the loan with some sort of collateral. Then begins the arduous task of determining what is sufficient collateral. Has to be something of value equivalent to the loan and interest and has to be something you can liquidate should he or she default.
Banks are more than just ATMs. They are fairly significant property holders. You'll need a significant amount of isk to get started, as you'll likely get more borrowers than savers. If you get low on liquidity, what do you do when more borrowers come knocking? Turn them away for lack of funds? Doesn't sit well with anyone who has isk in your 'bank.' Sell off some of the collateral you're holding to increase liquidity? (Of course, you'll be able to buy a replacement should that borrower come back, right?)
It gets very complicated and messy. Hopefully you already have a job IRL and don't want a second one. It's one thing to run your own in-game business. When you have players expecting 23/7 service it gets to be a headache. After theft, I'm pretty sure burn-out is the next leading cause of failure for such enterprises. Talk to someone who has run a large alliance for awhile.
Even if you're honest, the risk of failure is quite high. And when a bank fails, nobody is happy.
KB |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4875
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Posted - 2016.05.25 18:27:36 -
[9] - Quote
Lisbeth Riraille wrote:A thread in another forum got me thinking about banks.
I know there have been ponzi scheme scam banks run by players, but has anyone ever troed running a legitimate borrrowing/saving service in Eve?
PSA: This person is considering starting a new "bank" scam.
[BTW, that is the generous interpretation.]
Banking in Eve just does not work.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4875
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Posted - 2016.05.25 18:38:20 -
[10] - Quote
Pix Severus wrote:There are very few players in EVE right now who could run a successful bank, and it's due to the trust they have built-up over the last decade or so.
Unless one of those players decides to run a bank, you should just forget about it.
No, I donGÇÖt think even this would work. For banking to work you need several things. The first is a culture of trust. That is can you, generally speaking, trust people you interact with? Second you need a legal structure in which to resolve disputes even where both sides thing they are in the right. If you borrow money from a bank and do not pay it back, there is a way for the bank to recoup at least in part some of the money it borrowed. There needs to be an obvious punishment mechanism for those who game the system.
While everyone might trust some of these third parties like Chribba, can he trust everyone else? I would argue no. Second, even if he did trust someone and the deal went south and both sides honestly felt they were in the right there is no mechanism in game for such a dispute to be resolved. And lastly punishment in Eve of financial bad actors is near impossible. Worst case scenario, you suck out all of your Bernie Madoff alt, sell them, biomass Bernie and then create a new character, Ivan Boesky, and inject the unallocated SP and maybe buy some more SP with some of your ill-gotten wealth goods and off you go to your next set of scams. Rinse and repeat with Michael Miliken, Charles Ponzi, and so forth.
No, banking that is not a scam will never, ever be a thing in Eve. Ever. There is just too much systemic risk for anyone person or even a group of people to overcome.
Can we stop posting these threads/can people not use the search function?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4875
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Posted - 2016.05.25 18:44:58 -
[11] - Quote
KaarBaak wrote:Think about this, too: In order to be profitable, banks need to loan money (you don't make anything holding onto folks' isk and paying interest).
So an honest-looking chap in a moustache comes in and asks for 3Bn isk for his new nullsec production enterprise. You'll need to secure the loan with some sort of collateral. Then begins the arduous task of determining what is sufficient collateral. Has to be something of value equivalent to the loan and interest and has to be something you can liquidate should he or she default.
Banks are more than just ATMs. They are fairly significant property holders. You'll need a significant amount of isk to get started, as you'll likely get more borrowers than savers. If you get low on liquidity, what do you do when more borrowers come knocking? Turn them away for lack of funds? Doesn't sit well with anyone who has isk in your 'bank.' Sell off some of the collateral you're holding to increase liquidity? (Of course, you'll be able to buy a replacement should that borrower come back, right?)
It gets very complicated and messy. Hopefully you already have a job IRL and don't want a second one. It's one thing to run your own in-game business. When you have players expecting 23/7 service it gets to be a headache. After theft, I'm pretty sure burn-out is the next leading cause of failure for such enterprises. Talk to someone who has run a large alliance for awhile.
Even if you're honest, the risk of failure is quite high. And when a bank fails, nobody is happy.
KB
Not only that, but you can't have too much of the same collateral.
For example, suppose Item X is a popular item for collateral. And lots of people who are getting loans use it.
Well, not you have a pickle. Now, if you end up in the unlikely scenario where enough people default and you then want to sell Item X and lots of them hit the market at once...well the price might drop. Now your loan is under-collateralized. That is, depending on what people are using for collateral you could have correlated risks! And how do you determine that? You'd need people to disclose their collateral and maybe even have somebody keep track of these things.
Another possibility is CCP makes a change to the mechanics that renders a given type of collateral valuable less valuable. Again, you could end up with correlated risks.
If this kind of banking becomes widespread enough you have systemic risk to banking system.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Sustrai Aditua
Irubo Kovu
231
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Posted - 2016.05.25 19:19:05 -
[12] - Quote
Yeah. My bank is legit. No, really. I run it like a regular bank. I pay interest under the inflation rate,
and employ people who make you wonder if we think your money is really ours.
Feel free to open an account any time you like. Believe me. My bank can be trusted.
(You can't trust all these other people's banks!)
Look. I even dress like a space banker. If you could see my wrist you'd see a space Rolex on it, too.
If we get chased by zombies, I'm tripping you.
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Hawke Frost
168
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Posted - 2016.05.25 19:21:49 -
[13] - Quote
Banks either start out as a scam or become one down the line. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2609
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Posted - 2016.05.25 20:29:06 -
[14] - Quote
Ricdic was one of the most trusted figures in Eve. Then he wasn't. So it goes. |
Lisbeth Riraille
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
55
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Posted - 2016.05.25 21:14:05 -
[15] - Quote
[url]http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Challenge-Accepted-Gif-Barney-12.gif[/url]
:D |
Lisbeth Riraille
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2016.05.25 23:47:48 -
[16] - Quote
Hm. I clearly need to work on my forum code. |
Tiddle Jr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
866
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Posted - 2016.05.26 00:06:04 -
[17] - Quote
Would speak for myself. To be absolutelly honest with community i would with pleasure run my own bank with zero wish to scam anyone down to empty pockets. For many years i've been doing successfull spaceships trading business (which is serious of course =ƒÿë) and many people know me from that side. Meanwhile to run a priv bank would require a lot of responsability and management as well as my personal time. So i'm not sure that i ready to pay such price just to be a trusted bankier of New Eden. Someone of corse would.
The next thing is moral level of the person who run the priv bank. Whrn you start accumulating high volume of money in one hands that would potentially contains a high level of risk that this one person decide that "why not". Having 100B isk is a lot, having 1T is a different level and you really should be mentally and morally ready for such conditions.
"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
15369
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Posted - 2016.05.26 06:02:16 -
[18] - Quote
The problem with banks in-game is that you'd always need collateral from the loan-taker - something they usually do not have or have less of - and if so be prepared to front the difference if the loaner skips the payment.
If you run a back based on people simply getting return on their investments then you better be a good trader, but more likely you'll end up taking it yourself which is why no one will really trust in banks either because there's no protection.
Trust gets you further and there are pilots, like myself, that would have no interest in scamming, but at the same time if I were to run a bank where you'd get like 1% return or something that may work when the invested capital is 10b, but it's not the same as 100b invested and so on.
So small banks could possibly be doable, but that also is a very limited area for the investors because someone earning 10m a month is most likely not worth it.
It would be a whole different deal if there were actually mechanics that allowed me to give a loan to someone with some sort of security.
Seeing as there is no such thing all banks to date have ended up scamming or failing. What is more doable is IPOs or bonds, but ofc that requires collateral to be safe.
/c
GÿàGÿàGÿà Secure 3rd party service GÿàGÿàGÿà
Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'
Twitter @Chribba
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Netan MalDoran
Last Garrison
234
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Posted - 2016.05.26 06:52:55 -
[19] - Quote
The EvE Intergalactic Bank ran for awhile....until the owner needed to pay medical bills.....
"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Falcon's truth
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Tisiphone Dira
New Order Logistics
CODE.
879
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Posted - 2016.05.26 07:03:05 -
[20] - Quote
Tisi bank offers a very generous 10% monthly return, more if you refer a friend. Mail me and we can get you sorted, open an account. I've been trained by the best in the business, studying under Currin Trading. |
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
1717
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Posted - 2016.05.26 07:03:09 -
[21] - Quote
http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/07/09/eve-online-bank-scandal |
Lucas Kell
Evolution.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7812
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Posted - 2016.05.26 07:20:55 -
[22] - Quote
Lisbeth Riraille wrote:A thread in another forum got me thinking about banks.
I know there have been ponzi scheme scam banks run by players, but has anyone ever troed running a legitimate borrrowing/saving service in Eve? I ran one for a little over a year until I ran into issue with the host messing up server settings every 5 minutes causing havoc with security on the site, and with all the effort it took I shut it down. Everyone got their balance paid back in full (in a painstakingly long process of transferring ISK and sending mails). I hope to try it again sometime 
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Mithandra
Catastrophic Operations
Triumvirate.
541
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Posted - 2016.05.26 08:50:10 -
[23] - Quote
Interesting, but no.
In real life, the economic sector has checks, balances and oversight.
In eve there are no checks, balances or oversight.
If a banker defrauds his customers he "might" go to gaol.
If an EVE banker scams his clients................ nothing.
Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
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Poddington Bare
T.I.C
Solyaris Chtonium
332
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Posted - 2016.05.26 08:55:53 -
[24] - Quote
Lisbeth Riraille wrote:Hm, maybe it needs to be tried again. How hard can it be? You just lend money out at 7% and take deposits for 4%, sort of jobbie, right?
It really is as easy as that.
To prove it, I'd like to borrow 1bn isk from you. Will pay 7% annual interest on this. Just send over the money, with "Loan @ 7%" in the reason box and we have a deal. |
Lucas Kell
Evolution.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
7812
|
Posted - 2016.05.26 09:32:17 -
[25] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Interesting, but no.
In real life, the economic sector has checks, balances and oversight.
In eve there are no checks, balances or oversight.
If a banker defrauds his customers he "might" go to gaol.
If an EVE banker scams his clients................ nothing. Same could be said of trusted third parties like Chribba. Some people do want to run these ventures without scamming. Identifying them is difficult, but legitimate attempts really do exist.
The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.
Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
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Ohhhhhh Really
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2016.05.26 10:47:59 -
[26] - Quote
I'd like to be your first customer. I'd like to borrow around 2 bil. I'll give them back I promise .......... |
Beta Maoye
116
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Posted - 2016.05.26 11:20:58 -
[27] - Quote
Nowadays you can't even 100% trust a real bank. Don't you remember those failed big banks that needed to be acquired by United States Federal Government in 2008? To name a few, Bank of America, Bank of New York Mellon, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan.
And you want to trust a bank run by gamer? |
Exaido
Fire Over Light
19
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Posted - 2016.05.26 14:37:37 -
[28] - Quote
Here's how I'd do it. If I were so inclined - in rough terms.
Start with an 'Investment Bank' and create an 'alt' that would become a proxy-CEO; like how you get a CEO put in place with a start-up. The CEO sets the wallets, places any fixed assets (POS / Citadels) and distributes any resources purchased according to a schedule. Once the investment has made its returns, the CEO exists the corporation and hands over control to the start-up (other corporation). The number of investments would be limited by the availability of 'alts'.
If the CEO doesn't leave, it doesn't matter so much as it was their cash anyhow.
Loans, that is 'Retail Banking' is harder for the aforementioned reasons. One way to do that, would be if the player defaults, is have an alliance or agreement with a large mercenary corporation, and have them destroy the assets of the defaulter. The player of course, could place ISK into something like PLEX that can be converted into game-time that can't be recovered through destruction.
The other aspect is that the bank could establish a credit rating; of course this allows the 'long con' - build a good credit rating and then split with the ISK. A website that had credit ratings of loans, supported by API proofs would be interesting conceptually.
But the incremental gain on a credit rating would be much lower at smaller loan amounts than higher amounts.
I may have missed gaps, risks and the like but it's an interesting concept to explore the how of.
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Dirty Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2016.05.26 16:19:03 -
[29] - Quote
Lisbeth Riraille wrote:A thread in another forum got me thinking about banks.
I know there have been ponzi scheme scam banks run by players, but has anyone ever troed running a legitimate borrrowing/saving service in Eve?
It has been tried (I was in a group that tried it) - but as it turns out if you *do* find a bunch of no-life nerds willing to put in the effort to run it and they *are* trustworthy - they don't have the charisma needed to convince anybody to trust them. Nor were they willing to reach out to find customers, they wanted people to magically find them.
So instead they have gone back to playing the market instead.
That being said feel free to deposit all of your isk with me. I'll loan it out and see what kind of interest payments we can get you.
>,> |
Exaido
Fire Over Light
19
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Posted - 2016.05.26 17:22:58 -
[30] - Quote
Pak Narhoo wrote:http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/07/09/eve-online-bank-scandal
That's a great article. Thanks! |
Trace Kel'le
Royal Industrial Co.
Silent Requiem
1
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Posted - 2016.05.26 18:32:11 -
[31] - Quote
Well if you cant do outright banking how about instruments?
Like Bonds and stocks.
I would have no problem buying zero coupon bond from a well established mining corp.
You can also set up a way a loan could be collateralized with a third party service using a commoditiy such as Compressed Tritanium, where even if the loan defaults you recover something.
As an example Red Frog could take a collateral and if the payment is made it delivers it to the original owner and if it defaults its turned over to the note holder. |
Atomic Virulent
Dark Matter Industrial
156
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Posted - 2016.05.27 02:31:28 -
[32] - Quote
The only way to 'legitimately' save your ISK in Eve is to log off.
However, if you prefer to ignore the most precious rule in Eve, " Trust NO ONE ", then I would be willing to keep as much of your ISK safe as you would like.
Just right click on my name in game, and then 'Give Money'..... |
Rasputin Demonde
Pagan Products
9
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Posted - 2016.05.27 02:51:42 -
[33] - Quote
I would be happy if we just had loan contracts , collateral for isk , loans . |
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