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Jas Dor Minmatar	Posted - 2007.02.27 16:21:00 - [1] In Ours last night on the buy order side. I know it's been said before but these prices are getting a bit silly. 0.0 rocks probably still > Empire rocks but I suspect Empire rock > low sec rocks. Names, Dates, Times, Engagements, Losses, Op-Tempo or STFU!
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.02.27 16:48:00 - [2] 111,888,000 m3 is the magic number to enter for cargo at EveGEEK to get an even number of all ore types (except perhaps Mercoxit, which uses different lasers, anyway). Remember that actual mining isk/hr will be a little higher on lower-class ores, as you'll get more out of each laser cycle due to the finer granularity of the rock. Oh, and update their mineral prices before you hit submit. MP -- TINY. Stage 2 IPO, because good things come in pairs.
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.02.27 16:49:00 - [3] yes Jas Dor, scord is the new kernite in empire atm -- Signature edited - this is your last warning - Jacques
Quinton McTish McTish Industries	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:57:00 - [4] Nothing wrong with high buyer prices, seeing as I sell minerals when I don't need them for manufacturing. Scordite has been the big deal for weeks now, if not months. It's been holding steady. I'm personally waiting for Nox to make a comeback.
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.02 16:21:00 - [5] I <3 Scord! Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER EVE Vault, A Great Community
Kruugore Minmatar Vigilant Justice	Posted - 2007.03.02 16:22:00 - [6] Originally by: Jas Dor In Ours last night on the buy order side. I know it's been said before but these prices are getting a bit silly. 0.0 rocks probably still > Empire rocks but I suspect Empire rock > low sec rocks. The fact that low sec rocks have added risks associated with them aswell makes them unpalatable. Low sec really needs a boost. Mr. K VIGILANT JUSTICE CEO/FOUNDER EVE Vault, A Great Community
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.02 17:26:00 - [7] Originally by: Kruugore Originally by: Jas Dor In Ours last night on the buy order side. I know it's been said before but these prices are getting a bit silly. 0.0 rocks probably still > Empire rocks but I suspect Empire rock > low sec rocks. The fact that low sec rocks have added risks associated with them aswell makes them unpalatable. Low sec really needs a boost. The worst low sec rock is still better than the best high sec rock. Some as much as 4 times better (granted it used to be 6 times better). I don't think any miner doesn't wish they could do low sec mining. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Admiral Nova Strike Team Nova	Posted - 2007.03.06 08:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Kruugore Originally by: Jas Dor In Ours last night on the buy order side. I know it's been said before but these prices are getting a bit silly. 0.0 rocks probably still > Empire rocks but I suspect Empire rock > low sec rocks. The fact that low sec rocks have added risks associated with them aswell makes them unpalatable. Low sec really needs a boost. The worst low sec rock is still better than the best high sec rock. Some as much as 4 times better (granted it used to be 6 times better). I don't think any miner doesn't wish they could do low sec mining. No, it's not. Jaspet is now worth less than Scordite, and the best low sec ore isn't even worth 50% more, let alone 4x as much.. Infact you have to hit crokite just to be worth > 2x as much.
Niton Stormrider HCD	Posted - 2007.03.06 15:35:00 - [9] Personally I'll be riding the scordite high as long as I can. It's worth more than most lowsec roids and when you factor in the huge risks of mining in gankville, with the market as it is right now only an idiot would mine in lowsec for profit. The only reason to mine in lowsec right now is to aquire specific minerals that you don't want to buy, and you don't have reasonable access to 0.0 mineral rights. Even then, you likely better off selling pyer and buying your other mins unless you get off on the paranoia of mining in lowsec. :)
BSAC Manager	Posted - 2007.03.06 15:51:00 - [10] Yes, Pyerite is extremely overpriced. Anything above 7.21 isk I consider it price gauging. So either stop buying Pyerite, or go mine it yourself. Are mineral prices hurting you? Do something about it, invest in the Mineral Reserve.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.06 16:56:00 - [11] Originally by: BSAC Manager Yes, Pyerite is extremely overpriced. Anything above 7.21 isk I consider it price gauging. Base price on Pyerite is 8.00 per unit, and that would be the "fair" price. I don't take anything below 15-20% as "price gouging", so even 9.60 per unit is still a relatively decent price. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Jennai Leonard J. Crabs Legal Consortium	Posted - 2007.03.06 17:15:00 - [12] Originally by: Admiral Nova No, it's not. Jaspet is now worth less than Scordite, and the best low sec ore isn't even worth 50% more, let alone 4x as much.. Infact you have to hit crokite just to be worth > 2x as much. and it's not like that's anything new either. jaspet has been worth less than highsec roids for quite some time - formerly omber/kernite, and now scordite. IIRC hemo/hed were worth around 150isk/m3 when omber/kernite were 120, so those also haven't been worth mining for a long time.
Jaeger Orlofsson VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.06 17:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: BSAC Manager Yes, Pyerite is extremely overpriced. Anything above 7.21 isk I consider it price gauging. Base price on Pyerite is 8.00 per unit, and that would be the "fair" price. I don't take anything below 15-20% as "price gouging", so even 9.60 per unit is still a relatively decent price. lol, I remember when Pyer was 3.00 p/u - not even a year ago now.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.06 18:05:00 - [14] Edited by: Akita T on 06/03/2007 18:02:35 Don't worry, lowend prices will keep going up as long as the highend market keeps getting down, curtesy of: * recent war efforts (and consequent destruction spree causing major alliances/corps to liquify mineral reserves into ISK) * the new drone regions (even if they're a logistics nightmare, they're still the new paradigm of "mining with guns") * and last but not least, recent massive shutdowns of macro-mining and other RMT ops, and the new GTC "safe trade" system _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.06 18:07:00 - [15] Originally by: Admiral Nova Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Kruugore Originally by: Jas Dor In Ours last night on the buy order side. I know it's been said before but these prices are getting a bit silly. 0.0 rocks probably still > Empire rocks but I suspect Empire rock > low sec rocks. The fact that low sec rocks have added risks associated with them aswell makes them unpalatable. Low sec really needs a boost. The worst low sec rock is still better than the best high sec rock. Some as much as 4 times better (granted it used to be 6 times better). I don't think any miner doesn't wish they could do low sec mining. No, it's not. Jaspet is now worth less than Scordite, and the best low sec ore isn't even worth 50% more, let alone 4x as much.. Infact you have to hit crokite just to be worth > 2x as much. No, this entire statement of yours is wrong based on the prices I see for minerals. These are the prices I've been paying for some time now for minerals: Tritanium2.3 Pyerite8.28 Mexallon19.65 Isogen90 Nocxium360 Zydrine1951 Megacyte3860 Morphite5000 Here are the Ore values based on that: Veldspar 69.07 Concentrated Veldspar 72.52 Dense Veldspar 75.98 Scordite 107.31 Condensed Scordite 112.73 Massive Scordite 118.10 Pyroxeres 87.56 Solid Pyroxeres 93.56 Viscous Pyroxeres 95.96 Plagioclase 84.59 Azure Plagioclase 88.88 Rich Plagioclase 93.11 Omber 97.85 Silvery Omber 102.63 Golden Omber 107.72 Kernite 105.87 Luminous Kernite 111.12 Fiery Kernite 116.52 Jaspet 121.77 Pure Jaspet 127.10 Pristine Jaspet 134.37 Hemorphite 151.22 Vivid Hemorphite 158.24 Radiant Hemorphite 166.50 Hedbergite 169.06 Vitric Hedbergite 178.08 Glazed Hedbergite 185.62 Spodumain 135.79 Bright Spodumain 142.58 Gleaming Spodumain 149.37 Gneiss 184.12 Iridescent Gneiss 193.77 Prismatic Gneiss 202.42 Dark Ochre 208.85 Onyx Ochre 219.60 Obsidian Ochre 229.74 Crokite 353.36 Sharp Crokite 370.99 Crystalline Crokite 388.54 Bistot 413.41 Triclinic Bistot 434.65 Monoclinic Bistot 454.69 Arkonor 503.11 Crimson Arkonor 528.50 Prime Arkonor 553.30 Mercoxit 265.00 Magma Mercoxit 278.50 Vitreous Mercoxit 291.50 Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Block Ukx	Posted - 2007.03.06 19:32:00 - [16] Akita T, I did some calculations some time ago as to what should be the maximum mineral price. I determined that Pyerite should never go above 5.77. The Mineral Reserve defines price gauging as anything above 1.25+ the maximum mineral price. Using the same calculations, the Mineral Reserve can determine the ôfairö price of minerals. Standard Mineral Prices: Tritanium 2.50 Pyerite 4.01 Mexallon 23.66 Isogen 69.26 Nocxium 413.58 Zydrine 1,810.58 Megacyte 1,943.45
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.06 20:28:00 - [17] Edited by: Shadarle on 06/03/2007 20:24:05 Originally by: Block Ukx Akita T, I did some calculations some time ago as to what should be the maximum mineral price. I determined that Pyerite should never go above 5.77. The Mineral Reserve defines price gauging as anything above 1.25+ the maximum mineral price. Using the same calculations, the Mineral Reserve can determine the ôfairö price of minerals. Standard Mineral Prices: Tritanium 2.50 Pyerite 4.01 Mexallon 23.66 Isogen 69.26 Nocxium 413.58 Zydrine 1,810.58 Megacyte 1,943.45 Where are you pulling these numbers from? Based on the average yield for each rock or some such? The "Fair" price for minerals is the price that people are willing to pay in order to build stuff and still make a profit. If they can't make a profit then either mineral prices drop or module/ship prices rise. There is no way to determine the "real" price of all minerals in the game unless you know the #'s of every item produced & looted, the demand for those goods and the relative percentage of each ore mined compared to each other. Without all this info you're only looking at a part of the equation. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Niton Stormrider HCD	Posted - 2007.03.06 20:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 06/03/2007 20:24:05 Originally by: Block Ukx Akita T, I did some calculations some time ago as to what should be the maximum mineral price. I determined that Pyerite should never go above 5.77. The Mineral Reserve defines price gauging as anything above 1.25+ the maximum mineral price. Using the same calculations, the Mineral Reserve can determine the ôfairö price of minerals. Standard Mineral Prices: Tritanium 2.50 Pyerite 4.01 Mexallon 23.66 Isogen 69.26 Nocxium 413.58 Zydrine 1,810.58 Megacyte 1,943.45 Where are you pulling these numbers from? Based on the average yield for each rock or some such? The "Fair" price for minerals is the price that people are willing to pay in order to build stuff and still make a profit. If they can't make a profit then either mineral prices drop or module/ship prices rise. There is no way to determine the "real" price of all minerals in the game unless you know the #'s of every item produced & looted, the demand for those goods and the relative percentage of each ore mined compared to each other. Without all this info you're only looking at a part of the equation. I agree. Where are those numbers coming from? Current prices for all of those minerals except tritanium are WAY above you "fair price"; does this mean everyone in the galaxy is price gouging on every mineral transaction? If a model fails to predict market action that badly, it needs to be reassessed, especially when what we have is more or less a completely uncontrolled free market.
Block Ukx	Posted - 2007.03.06 21:20:00 - [19] Shadarle, Yes the calculations are based on the income mining yield per time. Why people are still mining anything but Scordite beats me. Every high-sec miner should be mining Scordite. Yet, tons of people must be mining Veldspar, because Tritanium remains stable. Niton, Not all prices are WAY above the Standard Mineral Price. Only Pyerite and Megacyte are way off. The Mineral Reserve defines price gauging for anything selling above 1.25X maximum mineral price. Anything selling for more than the following prices is considered Price Gouging. Tritanium 4.50 Pyerite 7.21 Mexallon 42.59 Isogen 124.66 Nocxium 744.44 Zydrine 3,259.04 Megacyte 3,498.21 And by the way eve is far from been a free market. Lots of people make a living by market manipulation.
Niton Stormrider HCD	Posted - 2007.03.06 21:34:00 - [20] My mistake, I forgot to multply your fair price index by the 1.25 gouging factor. However, I would argue that market manipulation doesn't preclude a free market...by "free," I meant that there is no regulatory authority looking over the market, auditing books, imposing price controls, granting monopolies, etc. It seems to me that it would be very difficult, especially in a market with as many producers and consumers as the minerals market (capital ship components for example are a WHOLE other kettle of fish), for anyone to manipulate the market to their own ends to any great degree. If you are basing the price index purely on the effort going into mining the various minerals, you miss the demand component entirely, which I imagine is much harder to qualify. (This is not a flame, by the way, you've arrived at very reasonable numbers, I'm just feeling around for ways to improve them)
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.06 21:42:00 - [21] Originally by: Niton Stormrider If you are basing the price index purely on the effort going into mining the various minerals, you miss the demand component entirely, which I imagine is much harder to qualify. This is EXACTLY the point I was trying to make. Simply setting a value on minerals based on the percentage of each mineral mined is a false value. If one mineral is used 20% more than another then that is very important. You cannot look only at the supply side and ignore demand. For example, look at any ship. The % of minerals used is not constant between them all. Some use extra Zyd, some use extra Nox... this means that you can try to set a "fair" price for minerals based on how easy they are to mine, but if the cheaper ones are demanded twice as much as the others then that will have a major impact and throws off you "fair" price. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.06 22:04:00 - [22] Edited by: Akita T on 06/03/2007 22:01:45 Every times somebody says something like "fair mineral prices should stabilize mostly if not only depending on mineral composition of rocks" ("and optionally maybe security rating where you can find them"), it completely ***s me up and I end up physically LOLing. Ok, not only are you completely neglecting the hardwired low-high limits of mineral prices (NPC-sold goods and insurance payouts), you are also neglecting the fact a minerals (especially lowends) DON'T EVEN COME EXCLUSIVELY FROM MINING, but instead a good deal come from recycling loot, especially a bit of tritanium and loads of pyerite ! Never forget, recycling just about everything is your friend. See anything on the market that recycled yields more minerals as assembled ? BUY it, recycle it. There are plenty of morons who don't take into account self-mined minerals when determining an end-user product price, so you can basically regard them as cheap miners. Again, same things could be said for mission-runners and the very populated hubs, you will find VERY good deals of typical loot dropped that are below mineral cost... or at least, you might be able to fill buy orders below mineral cost. One of the reasons from the recent price hike of lowends was surely the massive ban of almost 200 macro-miners' accounts, but also the "nerfification" of NPC loot drops (at least for hisec, I'm fairly certain that's the case). Also, the fact people start to get smarter (or should I say more observant) and no longer sell products below corresponding mineral prices all that often anymore. Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity/incompetence** _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Block Ukx	Posted - 2007.03.07 00:26:00 - [23] I already explain in my previous calculations thread the assumptions I made to come to my conclusions. But to remind everyone, IÆm looking at the equilibrium case where by definition Supply = Demand. Therefore one can look at the supply side of the equation without knowing the demand side. Both sides should arrive at the same answer, otherwise is not equilibrium. In my simple model IÆm only looking at the miner supply. Again, this is a first order approximation to a much complicated problem. I agree, influx of loot is not in the model, but this could be added latter to make the model more accurate. In any case, the solutions I have shown are correct for the assumptions I made. Mineral prices are always going to fluctuate around the equilibrium price. I use this numbers to decide whether to sell or to buy a particular mineral. If I were I miner I would use this numbers to decide which ore to mine. In any case, my conclusion based on my model is that Pyerite is extremely overpriced.
Niton Stormrider HCD	Posted - 2007.03.07 00:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 06/03/2007 22:01:45 One of the reasons from the recent price hike of lowends was surely the massive ban of almost 200 macro-miners' accounts, but also the "nerfification" of NPC loot drops (at least for hisec, I'm fairly certain that's the case). Also, the fact people start to get smarter (or should I say more observant) and no longer sell products below corresponding mineral prices all that often anymore. Why did that many miners get banned, anyway? Were they exploiting or something?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.07 01:02:00 - [25] Originally by: Niton Stormrider Originally by: Akita T the massive ban of almost 200 macro-miners' accounts Why did that many miners get banned, anyway? Were they exploiting or something? "Macrominer" = "full AFK mining with the aid of a software/bot" = "EULA/TOS breach" = "account termination" _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.03.07 06:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 07/03/2007 01:10:49 Originally by: Niton Stormrider Originally by: Akita T the massive ban of almost 200 macro-miners' accounts Why did that many miners get banned, anyway? Were they exploiting or something? "Macrominer" = "full AFK mining with the aid of a software/bot" = "EULA/TOS breach" = "account termination" Originally by: Block Ukx I already explain in my previous calculations thread the assumptions I made to come to my conclusions. [...] In any case, the solutions I have shown are correct for the assumptions I made. [...] In any case, my conclusion based on my model is that Pyerite is extremely overpriced. To keep it VERY short and to the point, with the risk of sounding all to brutal. Your assumptions are not all correct, but in general they are pretty close to the truth. However, your model is an overly simplified one, skipping a lot of major factors of mineral prices, to the point of becoming meaningless. Therefore, any conclusion you might have drawn from your modeling are far, far away from game reality. And that even if you made perfect calculations. Your calculations merely show what the "fair" prices would be, given a limitless supply of cubic meters of ore obtained from mining, and miners only looking at "best ore to mine price-wise". The deviation of your model compared to the game's "reality" might as well be a factor of two (double/half), and I'm even being generous here. Unfortunately I have to agree with Akita here. I do not think there is a question about what your assumptions are... we understand you are assuming demand=supply. The problem is that that assumption is simply so far away from the actual state of the game that it makes the rest of the assumptions invalid. I have no problem with theoretical mineral math. I quite enjoy it actually. The problem is that you are taking it to another level when you try to apply that theory to say pyer prices are too high. Given your assumptions your equations are probably very good. Taking away your assumptions your equations are not very good. In game your assumptions are not valid, thus the equations derived based on them are invalid. If you were to take a sampling of say 20 fairly popular items, list the average amount sold on any given day and the mineral cost for each. The determine the average demand of each mineral. During the same time period you then could check how many minerals were sold of each type. You could then compare that to your mineral math and try to determine a true "fair" value.... but I would bet you that the number would come out very close to the in-game value. But I would still find it very interesting and perhaps applicable (albeit still forgetting to calculate salvaged minerals). So in summary, your "fair" prices are only "fair" in a hypothetic universe, not in the game that we play. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Lygos Finis Actum	Posted - 2007.03.07 07:12:00 - [27] Hmm. I suppose if some enterprising soul with IGB webby know how was feeling industrious, and was popular enough, he could make an IGB compatible webboard for registrants to append their tags to contracts. If you had a pyerite subboard for example, pyerite buyers could easily circumvent NPC supply constraints on product values. A really well organized, searchable and popular IGB site could supplant the old escrow system. Personally, I'd find a way to bill fees if I could, but I lack both the needed knowledge and tools. If it uses trusted tags, you could have pages portalled on a per region base, or any other index. Untrusted functionality would naturally be more popular among non-alts though. You can get the contract tags by right clicking and hitting copy after posting one in a chat box. This will not supplant the market on smaller orders given the fixed, non-percentage tax. This doesn't eliminate the NPC influence on the market of course, but it does offer alternative possibilities. --- T2 Risk \| Corp Divisions
Niton Stormrider HCD	Posted - 2007.03.07 18:00:00 - [28] Edited by: Niton Stormrider on 07/03/2007 17:57:14 Edited by: Niton Stormrider on 07/03/2007 17:56:46 Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 07/03/2007 01:10:49 Originally by: Niton Stormrider Originally by: Akita T the massive ban of almost 200 macro-miners' accounts Why did that many miners get banned, anyway? Were they exploiting or something? "Macrominer" = "full AFK mining with the aid of a software/bot" = "EULA/TOS breach" = "account termination" Originally by: Shadarle Oh, now I feel really dumb. All this time people have been talking about macro-miners and I thought they just meant people who mine a LOT of ore (macro being a prefix for larger). Can't believe I missed that... Originally by: Shadarle So in summary, your "fair" prices are only "fair" in a hypothetic universe, not in the game that we play. Anyone else find it amusing that we're arguing about a hypthetical version of a fictional simulated universe?
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.03.09 00:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Niton Stormrider Anyone else find it amusing that we're arguing about a hypthetical version of a fictional simulated universe? I've argued about weirder stuff and even enjoyed it Anyway, point is, pyerite ain't that overpriced yet, and the only seriously underpriced minerals are megacyte and morphite. Oh, and I don't see morphite stabilizing any time soon (i.e. they'll keep dropping), due to the fact T2 is still being manufactured on a much too small scale. _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
BSAC Manager	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Akita T Anyway, point is, pyerite ain't that overpriced yet, and the only seriously underpriced minerals are megacyte and morphite. Oh, and I don't see morphite stabilizing any time soon (i.e. they'll keep dropping), due to the fact T2 is still being manufactured on a much too small scale. Just to clarify your statement. You are basing this on the Item Database, Aren't you? BSAC Mineral Reserve Fund Manager

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