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Question: Shield Rigging û sig-rad penalty

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Akira2501	Posted - 2007.02.27 18:54:00 - [1] IÆve just started running lvl4 missions in a Raven in Amarr space. I have trouble tanking EM and Thermal on the harder missions, and I was thinking of adding rigs. (2 EM, 1 Thermal) this will take my resists from the mid-to-low 70% range up to around 90%. Question: Is it worth the signature radius penalty? Also does anyone know how the Shield Rigging skill works? For instance, each rig has a 10% penalty to sig-rad, and the skill has a 10% less penalty to sig-radàso does training the skill to lvl3 cancel out the penalty of 3 rigs? I doubt it, but just thought IÆd ask.
dabster Minmatar Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.02.27 18:57:00 - [2] 1 level of shield rigging = 1% less penalty, installing a rig with level 1 = 9% penalty. If you afterwards train to level 2, the penalty will remian 9% on the previously installed rig. ___________________________ Trust In Rust!
Removal Tool Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.02.27 18:59:00 - [3] With no skills, your shield rigs will each add 10% to your ship's sig radius. Train to level 1 and now you have 9% sig radius added from each shield rig. So with your shield rig skill trained to level 5, then you would only have a 5% increase to your ship's sig radius per rig. I hope this helps. You will have to decide what rigs are most worth the penalties.
Akira2501	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:00:00 - [4] Thanks, that's what I was afraid of Anyways, operating under that assumption, it worth it to add 3 shield rigs? I'm not sure if I understand the effects of sig-rad. More accurately, I donÆt understand the mathematical formula involved.
Reysing Tafe	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:16:00 - [5] I don't think it's bad to fit a shield hardening rig on a battleship; the thing already has a massive signature radius anyway... See, a Raven has a base signature radius of 460 m, and a torpedo has a base explosion radius of 400 m. So the Raven gets the full torpedo explosion damage, and even the raven would have a radius of 200000 m, the torpedo will never do more than base damage... (I did not take into account the locking times to to larger signature radius)
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:19:00 - [6] Edited by: Grey Area on 27/02/2007 19:16:14 Akira - can't speak for turrets, but I know EXACTLY how it works for missiles... Damage you take = warhead x MIN((your sig radius) / (missile explosion radius),1) The "MIN" function uses whichever of the two numbers is lower (i.e., the ratio of your sig to missile radius, or 1) - so if your sig radius is greater than the missile explosion radius, it doesn't cause you any more damage...but if it's less, you get damaged for less... In practice versus missiles this means you won't really take any more damage in a Raven - your sig radius (460m) was already bigger than a Torp explosion radius (400m) - so you won't see any increase in damage at all. Guns may be different - and in PVP you will find that enemies lock you faster - again vs NPCs this makes zero difference as their lock time is 0 secs anyway. That said...the rig route for shield tanking is a bit unsubtle and inflexible...most raven mission runners fit Capacitor Control Circuits, giving them a longer time to run their shield booster...I dunno what your shield tank is normally, but I'd just look at getting better hardeners for EM and Thermal. I have two CCC's on my mission running rig...and a warhead rigor catalyst to take down cruisers that little bit faster. --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Akira2501	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:19:00 - [7] Edited by: Akira2501 on 27/02/2007 19:16:32 Thanks for the post, That's pretty much what I was thinking too.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:20:00 - [8] i think its better use hardeners plus shieldbooster in mids and cap recharge rigs, this is best Raven setup for PVE. Midleslot hardeners have 50-55% resistance compared to 30% with rigs and they share same stacking penalty.
Bronson Hughes Caldari Knights of the Wild	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:30:00 - [9] If Resist rigs weren't stacking nerfed in the same pool as hardeners/resist amps (a la Damage Control), they would be worth it. But since they are, they are pretty much worthless. Besides, what happens if you're tanking something that's not dealing that damage type? That rig slot is effectively wasted at that point. Better to go for something more vanilla unless you really need to fill an EM hole or something.
Mogrin	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:32:00 - [10] What about the % shield HP boost and recharge rates, do those have deminishing returns?
Akira2501	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:33:00 - [11] IÆd tend to agree with you, but basically IÆm just using the rig as another tank slot. Missions that do EM and Thermal (many in Amarr space) are hard to tank. Generally I have 4 hardeners 2 EM, 1Thermal, 1 Inv.) This can give me close to 80%, but I seem to need a bit more for the more difficult missions. My current config: 6 Cruise missiles 2 Large NOS 1 Large Extender (sig-rad penalty) 1 XL-booster 4 hardeners (IÆd like to fit a cap booster w/800 charges, but canÆt make it fit) 1 Damage Control 2 PDU 2 BDU ItÆs all T1 stuff right now (low-end named stuff mainly). I have the skills for T2, but IÆm pretty sure IÆm going to loose this ship soon (many close calls), and donÆt want to dump much of my hard earned lvl3 income into this ship if I can avoid it. At least until I know what IÆm doing! Thanks to everyone for the posts. It seems like adding the rigs are the way to go.
Akira2501	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:38:00 - [12] Bronson, IÆd agree with you for a general use ship, but this ship is specifically for missions in Amarr space, which is a lot of EM and Thermal. (which Ravens are very weak at) I think IÆll go with 1 Cap Rig, 1 EM and 1 Thermal.
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:46:00 - [13] Originally by: Mogrin What about the % shield HP boost and recharge rates, do those have deminishing returns? NO, + shield HP rigs and Recharge rate rigs dont have stacking penalty. (same aply to cap rigs and modules as well)
Elain Reverse Caldari Shokei	Posted - 2007.02.27 19:54:00 - [14] Originally by: Akira2501 IÆd tend to agree with you, but basically IÆm just using the rig as another tank slot. Missions that do EM and Thermal (many in Amarr space) are hard to tank. Generally I have 4 hardeners 2 EM, 1Thermal, 1 Inv.) This can give me close to 80%, but I seem to need a bit more for the more difficult missions. My current config: 6 Cruise missiles 2 Large NOS 1 Large Extender (sig-rad penalty) 1 XL-booster 4 hardeners (IÆd like to fit a cap booster w/800 charges, but canÆt make it fit) 1 Damage Control 2 PDU 2 BDU ItÆs all T1 stuff right now (low-end named stuff mainly). I have the skills for T2, but IÆm pretty sure IÆm going to loose this ship soon (many close calls), and donÆt want to dump much of my hard earned lvl3 income into this ship if I can avoid it. At least until I know what IÆm doing! Thanks to everyone for the posts. It seems like adding the rigs are the way to go. Can you run booster forever ? with 3 caprecharge rigs and adequate skills you can just put it on and forget you have booste as your cap will run it forever (i am going for this setup too when get CNR and litle more skills as with 3.6M SP i have now raven is not good even for l3 missions). Also you can use hardeners specific for each mission.
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.02.27 20:58:00 - [15] Originally by: dabster 1 level of shield rigging = 1% less penalty, installing a rig with level 1 = 9% penalty. If you afterwards train to level 2, the penalty will remian 9% on the previously installed rig. I don't think that's so. I installed a EM rig on one of my ships when I was at level 2 shield rigging. I have since trained to level 3, and show info on the installed rig tells me the sig radius penalty is 7%, which corresponds to level 3. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Mika Matsosumi	Posted - 2007.02.27 21:09:00 - [16] Originally by: Guillame Herschel Originally by: dabster 1 level of shield rigging = 1% less penalty, installing a rig with level 1 = 9% penalty. If you afterwards train to level 2, the penalty will remian 9% on the previously installed rig. I don't think that's so. I installed a EM rig on one of my ships when I was at level 2 shield rigging. I have since trained to level 3, and show info on the installed rig tells me the sig radius penalty is 7%, which corresponds to level 3. I was thinking the same thing Try 1 EM, 1 Thermal and 1 CAP Recharge or Rigor Warhead PS : Elain, with 3.6M SP you will lose your CNR in a lvl4 in ... 3.6 seconds
Grey Area Caldari	Posted - 2007.02.28 00:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Akira2501 1 Large Extender (sig-rad penalty) 1 XL-booster 4 hardeners Dump extender, fit Shield Boost Amp II. Other than that your setup looks fine...maybe you just need to train a few skills a little more... Are hardeners named versions? That will also help... --- I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment until you've looked at them.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.02.28 01:52:00 - [18] Originally by: Akira2501 Thanks, that's what I was afraid of Anyways, operating under that assumption, it worth it to add 3 shield rigs? I'm not sure if I understand the effects of sig-rad. More accurately, I donÆt understand the mathematical formula involved. Add 3 cap recharger rigs and upgrade your booster to make use of that extra cap. Getting an XL booster to run forever isn't all that hard to do anymore. Originally by: kieron The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
Akita T Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.02.28 03:07:00 - [19] A few often overlooked facts or plain wrong assumptions: * the sigradius penality is applied to base sigradius, not to total current sigradius (i.e. extender sigradius increase is not further increased by shield rigs) * you can have a rig on a ship (even T2 rigs) even without having any jury-rigging skills at all, if you traded the rigged ship... you only need the skills to install the rig, not to use it * the sigradius penality for rigs is NOT dependant on skills of installer at the moment of rig installation, but on on skills of current pilot * resist rigs ARE stacking-nerfed together with hardners, so if you use hardners and resist rigs, you'll just get sub-par results (having for instance two EM hardners and an EM rig, the EM rig effect is not 30% anymore, but less than 17% actually) * having a sigradius larger as the missile explosion radius will not increase damage dealt to you, so if your sig is already close to or higher than that, there's no harm in a bigger sigradius with regards to incoming missiles * for turret weapons, if you move at insignificant speeds or just "sit there", it makes no big difference what sigradius you have... as long as transversal is close to zero, you'll get hit for close to full damage REGARDLESS of your sigradius... wether it's 32m or 500m, there's no difference if the shooter is moving straight towards you and you're sitting still or moving straight towards him * talking about resists or boosted amount only in PvE is irrelevant... the only factor in PvE is "DPS neutralised", which is derived from boost\|repair per second and actual resists. Who cares if you have 500 shield/sec recharge if your EM resist is 30% (i.e. a bit less than 715 EM DPS neutralised), if the other guy has a 200 shield/sec recharge but with 85% EM resist (i.e. 1333 EM DPS neutralized). Conversely, who cares if you have 90% EM resist but only 50 shield/sec recharge (500 EM DPS neutralised) if somebody else has 55% EM resist and 400 shield/sec recharge (888 EM DPS neutralised). _ MySkills \| Module/Rig stacknerfing explained
Tecro Nashota Gallente Inako Industries	Posted - 2007.02.28 06:07:00 - [20] Small addition to previous posters' second fact ; if you trade ships and don't have the skills for the rigs on it you will receive the full 10% penalty.
Akira2501	Posted - 2007.03.01 06:16:00 - [21] Interesting, stuff thanks guys. (Sorry I was away for a day) Akita T, great info thanks. IÆve heard several times, including this post, to ditch the extender. Which surprises me in this specific post, since posters have established that the sig-rad penalty is meaningless on a Battleship. Correct me if IÆm wrong, but a shipÆs shields always recharge at the same rate. So for the sake of easy math, (hypothetical) 1,000 HP shield with a recharge rate of 100 seconds = 10 HP per second +250HP extender = total 1,250 w/recharge of 100 sec = 12.5HP per second Is this correct? It seems pretty useful if it is.
Plymer Ization Infinitus Odium Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.01 06:37:00 - [22] Call me crazy, but trying to boost a resist with a base of zero percent is a lot harder than trying to boost a resist with a base of sixty percent... Ready for this? Armour tank your Raven for missions that do EM/Therm Crazy, I know...
Halciform Gallente Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.01 07:37:00 - [23] Originally by: Akira2501 Interesting, stuff thanks guys. (Sorry I was away for a day) Akita T, great info thanks. IÆve heard several times, including this post, to ditch the extender. Which surprises me in this specific post, since posters have established that the sig-rad penalty is meaningless on a Battleship. Correct me if IÆm wrong, but a shipÆs shields always recharge at the same rate. So for the sake of easy math, (hypothetical) 1,000 HP shield with a recharge rate of 100 seconds = 10 HP per second +250HP extender = total 1,250 w/recharge of 100 sec = 12.5HP per second Is this correct? It seems pretty useful if it is. You are mixing passive and active tanking. Shield recharge time remain as extender increase shield HP, which is basic of passive tanking. But those number are only for "natural" shield recharge. Shield booster is basic for active tank. If you use shield booster, Shield Extender just add HP buff total, not boosting repaired amount. So you need shield boost amplifier and capacitor buffs for active tanking. So if you want use Shield extender, you dont want use Shield booster for PVE purposes. Mixed passive/active tanks tend to be poor in effectivity. As rig goes, for active tanking is mostly usefull capacitor racharging rig and for passive tanking shield recharging rig. "Now I'm sure of it: Death & Poverty like me so much, they brought friends!" -- Vash, Trigun

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