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Rebekah McCloud
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Posted - 2003.12.18 02:59:00 -
[1]
I've just spent a couple hours surfing the forums of the many eve fan sites and have come to a conclusion that the Castor patch has been put out with the Megacorps in mind. Lets look at some of the "improvements".... first deep core mining, from the posts on fan sites the only place you can find the new roids is in 0.0 space. Now add in the beef up in the pirates this means unless your a member of a Megacorp you'll never mine the stuff. Secondly with the new and "improved" agent system you must spend weeks working for a research agent to get a random new tech 2 BP. Now this dosent necessarly help the mega corps but you can bet that they will be working their tails off to get these bp's or will force an indpendent through control of the new ore (which is rumored to be required to produce the tech 2 items) to be unable to produce these items.
Now if you must be in a mega corp to get the ore and the megacorps control the prices of said ore (if they even choose to sell it in the first place) how in the name of god do produce any of these new items being a small operator. Not to mention that with the increase in the pirates capabilities this will most likely drive up the cost of Megacyte and Zydrine to as yet unheard of levels.
CCP has repeatedly expressed it's desire to have people move out of empire space to seek riches elsewhere, with this patch it makes the situation even worse for the small guy.
Granted the new Jump gate system has reduced the possibility of being jumped by human pirates but at the cost of making it certian death for someone to even attempt solo mining in a 0.0 system. How does this encourage players to move out of empire space. If anything it forces people like myself and my corp mates to retreat even further back into empire space. Our Bs's can no longer even solo "pirate mine" in a 0.1 let alone a 0.0 outside empire space.
Frankly CCP you have just made life seriously more difficult for the small guy in many ways.
I personally feel that you are forcing us Join a mega corp or take up mining scordite forever. You have taken away the ability for a small corp or solo player to make any siginificant gains. Most will never leave empire space now for fear of being destroyed by the NPC pirates and i'm shure the Mega pirate corps have already found ways to get around the new stargate approach system.
The castor patch has a few good points one being that at least some physics are taken into effect with the new AB's and MWD's. The revised standing's and the fact that tech 2 is techanlly out are also bonuses but at the moment I'll just say the jury is still out on this one.
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Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2003.12.18 03:12:00 -
[2]
Even the 'megacorps' or those of us in large alliances are going to have a difficult mining with the way it currently is... Keep that in mind.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.18 03:32:00 -
[3]
 Quote:
Even the 'megacorps' or those of us in large alliances are going to have a difficult mining with the way it currently is... Keep that in mind.
Precisely. All the more evidence that this patch favors only the largest, most powerful corporations.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Bentguru
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Posted - 2003.12.18 03:53:00 -
[4]
i've said this before and i will say this again.
Never has any corp of 5 ppl or the solo person been able to compete with the megacorps. Never.
To think that as a freelancers you can compete with a corporation of over 100 people is insane.
Small corps and freelancers can't do the things megacorps do, it's physically impossible for them.
What small corps and freelancers have to ask themselves is what can i do to make the game FUN. Contrary to popular opinion owning a battleship isn't fun. It's cool, but it isn't fun just in itself. It's what you do in the game, not what you own.
If you don't want to join a megacorp.. fine then. Don't do it. But don't whine about how you can't compete with it. Do what you want to do, not what you think you have to.
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Marcus Grisbius
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Posted - 2003.12.18 03:54:00 -
[5]
It may be time for people to look outside their corp for help with some things for a change. It was never meant to be a game where corps were supposed to be self-sufficient. But this is how most corps chose to operate. It means you have to make friends and develop corporate relationships outside of your corp.
Megacorps have to do the same. It's the same thing across the board. This game is about community and working together. I have seen plenty of complaints about how the solo player can't make it. But the truth is you can, you just have to make relationships with others in order to the big things in the game. I believe this patch helps the game go where it was originally intended to go.
Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn |
Master Scy
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Posted - 2003.12.18 04:01:00 -
[6]
Here's the way I see it:
Small and Medium corps should be allowed to do what mega-corps do, but slower...
They should NOT be completely locked out of doing certain things, like mining in 0.0 space. Either way, CCP did say they'll readjust the NPC/Roid stuff... |
Kennian
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Posted - 2003.12.18 04:02:00 -
[7]
this patch was 100% megacorp centric
a corp of 50 people can be totaly self sufficiant...absoltutely NOTHING required outside what they can aquire or produce. with the t2 raffles this will change a bit but <shrugs>
the new spawns have basicly slaughtered any chance a small corp has of getting any high level ore. ANY high level ore. and guess what....over half the population in this game is in small corps or freelancers
guess what happens when you ignore them?
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Crypt
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Posted - 2003.12.18 04:18:00 -
[8]
Half the games population cancelling their accounts isn't good for anyone, megacorp or otherwise.
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2003.12.18 04:37:00 -
[9]
Quote:
i've said this before and i will say this again.
Never has any corp of 5 ppl or the solo person been able to compete with the megacorps. Never.
To think that as a freelancers you can compete with a corporation of over 100 people is insane.
Small corps and freelancers can't do the things megacorps do, it's physically impossible for them.
What small corps and freelancers have to ask themselves is what can i do to make the game FUN. Contrary to popular opinion owning a battleship isn't fun. It's cool, but it isn't fun just in itself. It's what you do in the game, not what you own.
If you don't want to join a megacorp.. fine then. Don't do it. But don't whine about how you can't compete with it. Do what you want to do, not what you think you have to.
Dell started in a garage. History is full of one and two man teams who with the right combination of hard work, forsight and luck built megacorps. All they need was the chance to inovate and I think thats all these guys are asking for.
You could not have been more wrong from a historical perspective if you tried. All mega corps started out small.
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Viduus
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Posted - 2003.12.18 04:44:00 -
[10]
I pretty much agree with this thread.
Besides the direct problems, like being unable to go into any decent systems for ore other than Kernite or Omber, we need a babysitter on our newer people, which means more wasted man-hours. There's also collateral factors like an influx of player pirates, who are suddenly finding the edges of Empire space much more profitable than 0.0 where they used to operate... or whatever their reasons are.
While I don't feel that the entire patch was bad, or even that it was bad "overall", I do think that the game is becoming 'too specialized'... and that will eventually kill off a lot of customers.
People (especially younger people) get bored; they want to do this today, that tomorrow, and the other next day; now asking them to wait to be able to do all those things is one thing, but telling them that there's now way they'll ever be able to do them all without rolling another character (meaning: start over) will simply drive them away, considering the length of time it takes to get somewhere decent in this game.
Anyhow, that was a tangent... my point was that in smaller corps, there's less specialization; we don't want to be able to COMPETE with the MegaCorps, what we want is to be able to access most of the game... and that includes taking little trips out to 0.0, and mining something other than Kernite.... *so tired of Kernite...* which Castor has made a virtual impossibility with this patch.
* Public Channel: NEA * |
toaster
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Posted - 2003.12.18 04:45:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Half the games population cancelling their accounts isn't good for anyone, megacorp or otherwise.
cmon man, quit overreacting. I've heard all the stuff about eve losing players and I have a theory on how to fix it but what u said is a bit riduculous.
I do agree with the original post though, is very mega corpish patch. I'm looking forward to move fair PvP, but I'm gonna forget about going to 0.0 unless to fight.
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.18 05:43:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Never has any corp of 5 ppl or the solo person been able to compete with the megacorps. Never.
To think that as a freelancers you can compete with a corporation of over 100 people is insane.
Small corps and freelancers can't do the things megacorps do, it's physically impossible for them.
The point is not that small corporations should be able to "compete" necessarily with Megacorporations. Obviously the corporations with 200+ members have an advantage regardless, if nothing else simply in active member presence. The point is that before Caster brave freelancers and well-organized small and medium sized corporations could accomplish some things. They could mine enough minerals for ship production, and given some wise business decisions make as much money as many of the largest corporations.
Look at Big Bang Burger Bar, they have what, 5 members or something? Yet it's increadibly wealthy. This is not a bad thing for the game. Some people actually like the idea of working in a smaller, more tightly knit group of people, or even on their own, and completely locking them out (as in 0% chance) of any kind of accomplishments worth mentioning is a mistake, if for no other reason than the fact that it will discourage new players from joining the game.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2003.12.18 05:50:00 -
[13]
Castor is not designed to favor the mega corps. Tech 2 manufacturing and the bs nerf is specifically designed to give small and medium corps a fighting chance both in manufacturing and pvp combat.
If u look on the market and turn off active items only u will see the insane amount of new items that will go into tech 2 manufacturing no megacorp will be able to supply all the components they need in-house. The idea is to force megacorps to subcontract out to smaller corps.
That being said small corps need to speciallize in a very narrow way if they wish to survive.
Think of it this way: toyota does not
-mine ore
-refine ore into steel, aluminum ect
-precision make every component that goes into thier vehicles.
They do subcontract from a hundred different smaller companies and then assemble everything together.
So compete with megacorps; small corps will never be able to compete with them because that is absurd. What castor gives is small and medium corps a place in eve that they can survive and profit in.
So get your selves some bps for gallente thruster assemblys and start selling to the big ship building corps.
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Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.18 05:56:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 18/12/2003 05:58:27
Torvus, one way or another the real success in castor will come with manufacturing. After all, it's the introduction of Tech II. You think selling some minerals or components to large corporations is going to compare to manufacturing an item for which, maybe 5 blueprints in the galaxy exist?
It's one thing to say that small/medium corporations shouldn't be making the same amount of money as Megacorporations, but to absolutely exclude them from the most lucrative part of the game (manufacturing items) is a mistake, and that's essentially what Castor will accomplish. Corporations forced to purchase high-end minerals will never make a decent profit manufacturing items; and given that these smaller corporations are now essentially incapable of mining the highest ores, not to mention the new DCM ore, I would say purchasing the minerals is their only recourse.
When 5-10 corporations are making billions a week while everyone else in the game is struggling to build a battleship by selling some spare parts to the 5-10, people will bore quickly of the game. This happened on a small scale with the Miner II, and look what a stink that caused. Imagine that controversy x100.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Centauri
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Posted - 2003.12.18 05:57:00 -
[15]
Where are these "research" agents anyway? I haven't seen even one...
Centauri,
Former Fleet Admiral of Star Control |
Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2003.12.18 06:05:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Torvus Jay on 18/12/2003 06:06:20
Thats the point there will only be a few bps for all of the components needed to manufacture with tech 2. Techell will never have all the bps they need to build the tech 2 version of every bship they now sell, because it will require multiple rare bps to do so.
They WILL buy from the smaller corps who do have the bps to make gallente thruster assemblies and ladar sensor arrays becasue they will have no choice. The days of a corp being completely self sufficient able to produce everything there membership needs are over.
That is the point of castor to force speciallization in all aspects of eve. Combat, manufacturing, mining and research.
Not just speciallizing our characters but speciallizing our corps too. I think that although the megacorps will have a higher net profit(obviously) there profit per capita is going to very similar to a well run small corp.
This patch is going to make small corps meaningfull not obsolete. Now as far as mining corps go i dont think even the mega mining corps will be able to field the fllets nessasary to mine mega and morphite as well as mine the low and medium end ore. Thats where the small and medium time miners come in. They will mine in .4-.1 and get the mex, iso nocx and even zydrine that the mega corps dont have time or playerbase to get themselves.
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Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Kaera
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Posted - 2003.12.18 06:07:00 -
[17]
Dell started in a garage. History is full of one and two man teams who with the right combination of hard work, forsight and luck built megacorps. All they need was the chance to inovate and I think thats all these guys are asking for.
You could not have been more wrong from a historical perspective if you tried. All mega corps started out small.
I agree, all you need is some determination and finding a niche in the market. With tech 1 that was not truly possible, but with tech 2 it may be...
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Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.18 06:14:00 -
[18]
They WILL buy from the smaller corps who do have the bps to make gallente thruster assemblies and ladar sensor arrays becasue they will have no choice. The days of a corp being completely self sufficient able to produce everything there membership needs are over.
BPs of anything worthwhile mean next-to-squat to a corporation that has to buy every unit of Megacyte for 35k. Sweet lord Jesus only knows what the new DCM mineral is going to cost - 1M per unit? Who knows. Point is, manufacturing of any kind is going to become incredibly difficult for all but the largest corporations, not for lack of blueprints but for lack of access to resources. Those that exist are so far out and guarded now by NPCs that a corporation equipped for combat has trouble handling, let alone one geared for mining and hauling.
How many corporations now possess the player presence not only to withstand the power of the NPCs but also stage a mining operation, something that was already difficult before the patch?
Like I said, specialization is one thing, but when it comes down to raw numbers the game is going to become very uninteresting if it keeps going this way... when 95% of the wealth lies with 2% of the corporations.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2003.12.18 06:26:00 -
[19]
Quote:
BPs of anything worthwhile mean next-to-squat to a corporation that has to buy every unit of Megacyte for 35k. Sweet lord Jesus only knows what the new DCM mineral is going to cost - 1M per unit? Who knows. Point is, manufacturing of any kind is going to become incredibly difficult for all but the largest corporations, not for lack of blueprints but for lack of access to resources. Those that exist are so far out and guarded now by NPCs that a corporation equipped for combat has trouble handling, let alone one geared for mining and hauling.
Yes mega and morph is going to be expensive,But the price of the items that the small corps manufature is going to reflect that. The mega corps are now going to have to accept buying items at high prices instead of going out and making them themelves. Because they will have no other choice.
This can only be good for the small corps that build these items. Now everyone is going to be able to have a manopoly or close to it on something.
A manufaturing corp has NO business mining the ore for their products. And castor makes it so they finally cant.
It seems like you are talking about startup funds to me. As far as that goes your right they will need capital to get the show on the road which is the way it should be.
An example:
A small corp gets the bp for a vital component of raven manufature. SmallCorp inc. doesnt have the isk to start rolling them off the assembly line. They now have 2 option
1. Sell the bp and have fun spending the isk they get for it
2. Contact a megacorp that desperately needs this vital component and ask for venture capital.
The smart move ofcourse is to get the capital and begin making your empire.
Castor is bringing the corporate dynamic closer to reality then any game has ever before.
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Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Ronyo Dae'Loki
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Posted - 2003.12.18 06:38:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Dell started in a garage.
Sure, but Dell isn't just a few people anymore.
If you want to be rich, you'll *probably* have to get big. Manpower is underrated sometimes.
My real feelings on this? I hope CCP tweaks those pirates a bit, because the spawn size and rates are insane right now. Then it'll be possible for the smaller corps to actually do some high-end mining.
HINT: Want megacyte? Look for Spodumain, it's more common than Crokite. Once the pirate group difficulty levels are fixed, Spod will likely be the most common source of megacyte around, because lots of smaller corps will be mining in previously useless regions such as The Outer Ring and The Syndicate.
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My salsa makes all the pretty girls want to dance and take off their underpants.
I <3 ( . Y . ) |
Karol Kei
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Posted - 2003.12.18 07:26:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Karol Kei on 18/12/2003 07:31:04
One more thing to consider: A new player entering the game and wanting to be a manufacturer is locked out. The only way he or she is going to be building anything is in a megacorp. Fair enough.
In reality megacorps are at war. They don't recruit. And if they do it would take a long time to earn the trust to access the blueprints. This is amplified by blue print copy changes. And finally the megacorps have enough alts for manufacturing as it is.
Manufacturing as a playstyle was lokced out with this patch. The only people allowed to do it will be the megacorp manufacturing slave characters. This is a real problem for people not already "in the circles".
If this issue is not looked into, I believe it is because the devs want to make the move towards the ultimate goal of player run economy/ markets/ galaxy and this is the cut off time. Current megacorps would have been chosen in and the rest would be forever struggling.
I do believe that this will be fixed, though. Such a radical change would have been announced and people would have been given time to adapt, as by definition adaptation is not possible afterwards - and adaptation is the key to success in MMORPGs.
Disclaimer: All in all I am quite happy with the patch. I was hit with the nerf bat here and there personally, but I think once the kinks are ironed out general concepts are very good for the game as a whole.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2003.12.18 07:44:00 -
[22]
Quote:
Yes mega and morph is going to be expensive,But the price of the items that the small corps manufature is going to reflect that.
Umm .. how about, no it isn't. The megacorps can simply say, "Sell us your original blueprint at X rate, or you'll never get any morphite to build anything with it."
There are no anti-cartel laws in EVE. The small businessman who manages to acquire a tech 2 blueprint can't do anything with it except sell it to a megacorp. The megacorps know that. They are not going to be offering umpty-ump billion ISK to buy it. They won't even have to out-bid each other, unless things like tech 2 battleship prints are going to be permanently unique; they can just decide what the price is between them, and wait for the next one to turn up.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.18 07:55:00 -
[23]
Exactly Baldour. Megacorporations hold the "high card" so they call the shots. If they require an item from a smaller corporation, they will charge only as much as they damn well feel like it, and in turn overcharge again for the finished products they are distributing. Essentially you're talking about turning small corporations into "employees" of the megacorporations; and we all know how people treat employees in the absence of labor laws. Absolutely minimal investment in all areas.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Intoccabile
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Posted - 2003.12.18 08:15:00 -
[24]
Because of this patch, our 10 member corp is now talking about going back to DAOC. All of us in Atari Corp work together and play together, we all have old accounts still on DAOC and since the new expansion is coming out will probably cancel ALL of our accounts on Eve within a couple of weeks and go back to DAOC until something better comes along.
It was fun while it lasted, but for $12/mo we can only take so much crap.
Cheers...
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2003.12.18 08:32:00 -
[25]
All this patch does is make you focus on teamwork, not as a large corporation but as combined force that will mine.
If you combine the forces of several smaller corporations and give them all a certain task then you will be able to mine properly.
Make the pvp ships give protection to and in the belts, make the mining corporations mine and refine and share this profit made.
Larger corporations are doing it, so why not smaller ones? Is it a lack of insight? Lack of willingness to try?
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Maule
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Posted - 2003.12.18 08:34:00 -
[26]
Hmm one thing I didn¦t see here was why do the smaller/medium corps not form an alliance of some sort and then go help each other to get the high lvl ores.. it only requier 8 bs or so to guard a system whit high lvl orex and 2 medium corps or some more smaller corps dont have a problem getting that if they work together first... or have you considered to merge whit other corperations to get bigger ?
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Torvus Jay
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Posted - 2003.12.18 08:40:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Umm .. how about, no it isn't. The megacorps can simply say, "Sell us your original blueprint at X rate, or you'll never get any morphite to build anything with it."
Then the smallcorp is making the wrong move.
The small corp can then say "no morphite no item" in which case there is a stalmate until one side caves.
Tech 2 is introduced via a lotery system. There will only be a limited number of each bp so the mega corp cannot name its own price. If a small corp owns one of only a few bp in eve to make something that is vital to the megacorp the megacorp has 2 choices:
Succumb to the demands of the smaller corp
or implant an alt to steal the bp.
Veruna, subcontracting has nothing to do with making them like "employees".
You are argueing that each and every corp in eve should be able to make each and every item in eve if they want regardless of playerbase.
That is the most rediculous thing i have ever heard.
Before castor small corps had no place in eve. Yes they could manufacture somewhat but could still never compete in the ship market with a large corp. Any production was mostly for inhouse use.
In which case we are talking about to different things. You are describing something more like a clan or guild rather than a corp. So yes small clans and guilds will have a tough time with castor but they can certainly survive. Small corps will however thrive and possibly have alot more fun at it than the megacorps because theya re forced to make alot out of so little.
In house production is not possible with tech 2 and thank god for that.
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Aim careful, and look the devil in the eye. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2003.12.18 08:48:00 -
[28]
Small corps aren't meant to be sefl-sufficient.
Megacorps are, since they can organise into several smaller divisions of which the one would protect the other one mining.
Small corps will just have to work together to do this.
Use your imagination: start a corp that defends miners; organise a few small corps into a joint mining-combination; affiliate yourself (this does not mean joining them) with a larger and experienced corp, etc.
Use the possibilities Eve provides to interact and overcome the obstacles that a hostile universe puts in your way. That is the idea behind some of the Castor changes.
Rod Blaine
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Veruna Caseti
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Posted - 2003.12.18 08:55:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Veruna Caseti on 18/12/2003 08:59:43
Quote:
Make the pvp ships give protection to and in the belts, make the mining corporations mine and refine and share this profit made.
Quote:
Use your imagination: start a corp that defends miners; organise a few small corps into a joint mining-combination; affiliate yourself (this does not mean joining them) with a larger and experienced corp, etc.
Use the possibilities Eve provides to interact and overcome the obstacles that a hostile universe puts in your way. That is the idea behind some of the Castor changes.
Neat ideas; they look good on paper. The fact is, unfortunately, that the more intercorporation cooperation and player presence required to accomplish fundamental, everday tasks translates into fewer opportunities to do so.
If you need 3-4 corporations to mine some rare minerals, how often do you think you're going to be able to get all these people together at one time? Maybe once a week, once every other week? EVE's not busting at the seams with players here, don't forget. As it stands, the number of active players in the universe is small and ever-dwindling.
Saying "Go out and find 3-4 corporations to help you," is... well, easier said than done.
Veruna Caseti
Ishukone |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2003.12.18 09:18:00 -
[30]
I disagree. The number of active players is not small at all. The problem is mainly that most corps are not well organised, and don't look farther then inside their own corp.
What is the difference between 4 10-member corps working together in regular mining ops, and one 40-member corp doing a mining op ?
Sure, it will take a bit more organisation, but not much. And this is the price you pay for wanting to hang on to your small-corp identity instead of merging.
Eve IS hard oon the solo player and small corp. But that is part of the harsh economics that rule eve.
OK, so mining rare ore will be harder ( DEV's are going to tune down the NPC a bit btw).
This only means that fewer products can be made within the same dedicated time.
This will reduce the flooding of the market, and as such raise prices (with rising demand due to harder NPC's). All-in all the result will be slightly reduced or increased earnings for your corp depending on luck. specialisation and dedication, with a chance to get rich by the tech2 raffles even.
Imo this is the way it should be.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
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