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Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
140
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Posted - 2016.06.30 16:33:31 -
[31] - Quote
Quote:Most people trying out Eve do not understand why do they have to break their mind with countless spreadsheets in a game when they have enough of it at school, work, well, RL. They dont. Ive been playing 8 years and ive never used a spreadsheet for eve. Ive only looked at other peoples to LOL.
Some people enjoy that part of the game. They like making eve more complex than it is. But thats the beauty of eve. You can make it as complex or as simple as you like.
Your main problem is going to be the learning curve. Eve has a very steep learning curve and people will try to gank you on that curve. Its part of the game. Eve actually works in reverse of most games. It starts out hard and gets easier as you gain skills and experience.
Quote:If anyone at CCP would listen and care, I would have made a suggestion: 1. create a separate environment (like Singularity) for noob access only for three days (a week maybe) 2. give them access to unlimited fitted ships, with unlimited (trained) skill points 3. give them step by step missions: fights (FW, PvP) with good AIs, encourage them join fleets with FCs that would simulate those of real players from Tranquility 4. Give them step by step missions for exploration. 5. Tell them there are options of mining, manufacture, hauling, etc. and let them know they can try those later on Tranquility if they wish so. (No offense to players who like these, but even these occupations might or will require flying and shooting).
This kind of sounds like doing career agents( f12 while in game). Eve has always been rough on newbies. But i think its better for the game because it weeds out a lot of people we dont want playing anyway. You will find, despite some appearances, that eves player base is much more mature and more intelligent than other games as intelligent people are drawn more to complex games( hence why you see people analyzing spreadsheets, coming up with ways to use game mechanics to their advantage, etc)
CCP does pay more attention to players than other games. The devs and other ccp staff frequent the forums far far more than other games. Customer support is far better( even if they arent always the most helpful at fixing my problems). And players do influence a lot what gets put into the game.
You will also find there is no handholding in this game. CCP encourages us to play as we please( mostly) with tools they give us. Eve is probably the most hardcore game on the market. There has been much debate on how to encourage newbies to stay long enough to really get into the game. It is a fine line between making it more appealing to newbies and watering the game down, which is something players here fight hard against.
Quote:Someone might point out that I (talking about myself) did not have that and am still here. Yes, I am, because I can be stubborn and miss StarTrek too much Big smile! My original post will tell you that even that is barely enough. And thus you might be suitable for eve. If you said "game is to hard, to complex, etc., im not playing unless you change it." We would tell you bye. And we would tell you this because you are likely an undesirable player. What is an undesirable player in eve?
- Someone that whines all the time about how hard the game is and demanding it be changed to be easier. - Someone that complains about being ganked, killed, scammed, etc. and demands it be changed, rather than simply learn the game mechanics and pay attention. - Someone that wants the players or more specifically CCP to hold their hand so they can do their pve without interference from other players( this is a social MMO. one of the key components of gameplay is to socialize) -Someone that has played all of a few days and comes to the forums and wants to make sweeping changes to suite their playstyle rather than change their playstyle to suit the game. - Someone that tries to water the game down into what we like to call "World of Warcraft in Space" - Generally immature people ( though many of us may act immature at times) that makes you feel like you are in daycare.
Eve caters to a very specific type of player. These players tend to be quite loyal as this is there game and there really arent any mainstream games that cater to them like eve does. Eve players nor CCP wants to be like "everyone else" Both want to be different. And both like it that way. Either a new player likes that difference or they like the standard MMO done over and over again with different graphics, hero, and backstory IE: clones. |
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
367
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Posted - 2016.06.30 22:37:44 -
[32] - Quote
21,000 folks disagree daily, as they were all new to the game at some point and are playing at any given time.
The difference, IMO between yourself and your ilk (OP) is that EvE is a sandbox game in which you can do anything. And you find that daunting, as you're used to someone telling you what to do...what you can do...what you can't do. When faced with the myriad opportunities offered by EvE, folks like yourself freeze-up like a deer in the headlights.
Successful pod pilots see that tabula rasa and grab the oils, chalk, crayolas and begin creating their world.
Unsuccessful pod pilots cringe in fear at such daunting opportunity. And there are lots of those. It's nothing to feel bad about.
EvE is not for everyone. It's for the creative. The imaginative. The ambitious. The adventurous.
If you don't see the opportunity, you're going to continue to not enjoy the game. You can be a bad pilot and still garner respect in this game. But you cannot be a miserable pilot and hope to gain any respect.
KB
Dum Spiro Spero
Not getting SP for not killing a rat is like not getting ore for not mining an asteroid.
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Antheria
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
6
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Posted - 2016.07.01 01:00:04 -
[33] - Quote
You obviously have a brain & a conscience (unlike many people in EvE) so I won't regurgitate some of the earlier advice, other than to say the first response by Tau is probably the most helpful.
For me the ongoing attraction of EvE is the social aspect. My best times in EvE have been doing "things" with other people & helping younglings. That said finding a like-minded group of people will be your challenge (if you decide to stay in the game).
Good luck for the future. |
Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2016.07.01 02:03:41 -
[34] - Quote
KaarBaak wrote:When faced with the myriad opportunities offered by EvE, folks like yourself freeze-up like a deer in the headlights. Unsuccessful pod pilots cringe in fear at such daunting opportunity. And there are lots of those. It's nothing to feel bad about. EvE is not for everyone. It's for the creative. The imaginative. The ambitious. The adventurous. KB
Thanks!!! You made me feel so much better . And provided a very constructive and informative answer !!! May your path lead you to people who will be as helpful as yourself!
KaarBaak wrote:You can be a bad pilot and still garner respect in this game. But you cannot be a miserable pilot and hope to gain any respect.KB
The "respect" in an online game is the least thing I care about!
Thanks again! |
Memphis Baas
1668
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Posted - 2016.07.01 02:17:16 -
[35] - Quote
Some of the stuff that you're asking for in post 25 above takes quite a bit of effort on CCP's part. Realize that they've set up the game for minimal effort; they just create a bunch of ships and we create all the "content" with them. Also, 3 days of newbie-only stuff on a test server that gets wiped out regularly (for testing), in order to attract the 1000 or so newbies that may be trying the game... may be wasted effort coding stuff for that small of a % of the playerbase.
In addition, they don't really know what attracts newbies (and older, discontinued players), other than new graphics/ships/features, or news of some major player war. They've switched from a patch every 6 months to a patch every month in order to increase the new graphics/ships/features, and player wars are somewhat out of their control (the alliance leaders have grown accustomed to insults to their girlfriends and don't go to war so easily anymore).
As a sandbox game, EVE has a big issue: only a few people continue to be kids into adulthood. You give a kid a doll and she can play with it for years, inventing her own stories / personality / etc. As adults, we read books, watch movies, participate in stories written by other people; I could try to invent my own story, but it would be boring to me, and even if it's interesting to others, it's still boring to me because I already know how it goes.
So you need to be in a good corp., so that your corpmates or the officers or the corp itself can have goals (and stories) that you can participate in. That's the secret to this game. |
Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2016.07.01 02:43:52 -
[36] - Quote
Memphis Baas wrote:... may be wasted effort coding stuff for that small of a % of the playerbase.
Thanks Memphis!
I read a lot of your posts/replies and always appreciated your insight.
As I mentioned before, suggesting to make changes to the game never even crossed my mind.
The part that you are referring to is just my vision of what could help other potential players join the Eve Universe.
If CCP is happy with the current state of things and the player base is happy with the established status quo, then there is no need for any changes in the newbie help/guidance approach.
I am not here to be a thorn in everyone's ***. In my RL job oftentimes I have to collect information, analyse, draw conclusions and suggest solutions if necessary. I thought the opinion/view of an absolute noob might provide some value (that's after we settled the issue with me going in the wrong direction in Eve). If it does not, then, it just should be disregarded and not considered as criticism.
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Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
31
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Posted - 2016.07.01 02:49:23 -
[37] - Quote
Thank you, everyone!
I got my answers.
I really appreciate the time and thought that you put into your replies! |
Tao Dolcino
EVE University Ivy League
483
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Posted - 2016.07.01 05:32:03 -
[38] - Quote
You are very right to give your feedback as new player, and CCP and us older players have indeed to make more efforts to make new players stay. It's in the interest of us all. But criticizing the game on the base that it's not like the other games you have played before and that there are spreadsheets is not constructive : it will only lead to dumbing down EVE until it becomes another generic shallow product you play one week then forget all together. And then EVE will indeed die economically.
CCP 2015 : "Fluff is good"
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Tzuke
State War Academy Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2016.07.01 08:40:51 -
[39] - Quote
Blood Retributor wrote:Thank you, everyone!
I got my answers.
I really appreciate the time and thought that you put into your replies!
I can only echo your thoughts about the game. This is my 3rd attempt at EVE in a decade. I'm doing better this time than my previous attempts but I would like to see a "friendlier" environment for new players. It hasn't happened in the last decade and I doubt it will change at all. While other mmo's spend god knows how much on expansions, updates whatever you call it, fundamentally EVE is the same game (or appears to me) as it always was. Something still appeals to me about EVE and I guess that's how you feel.
Maybe Star Citizen or No man's sky will be a better alternative for us than EVE..who knows |
Netan MalDoran
Last Garrison
241
|
Posted - 2016.07.01 16:04:39 -
[40] - Quote
I mostly buy PLEX for ISK and do passive things like PI (And sometimes exploration), then I use the cash for having PvP fun!
"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!
Falcon's truth
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1505
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Posted - 2016.07.01 16:30:24 -
[41] - Quote
Blood Retributor wrote:Most people trying out Eve do not understand why do they have to break their mind with countless spreadsheets in a game when they have enough of it at school, work, well, RL. If anyone at CCP would listen and care, I would have made a suggestion: 1. create a separate environment (like Singularity) for noob access only for three days (a week maybe) 2. give them access to unlimited fitted ships, with unlimited (trained) skill points 3. give them step by step missions: fights (FW, PvP) with good AIs, encourage them join fleets with FCs that would simulate those of real players from Tranquility 4. Give them step by step missions for exploration. 5. Tell them there are options of mining, manufacture, hauling, etc. and let them know they can try those later on Tranquility if they wish so. (No offense to players who like these, but even these occupations might or will require flying and shooting). In short, give them access to whatever options a three-five year old active player would have access to. Help them feel what they can achieve if they put in the time and the sub money. 6. Tell them at the very beginning it is a DEMO ONLY and they will not be able to bring anything they achieve here to Tranquility. 7. Tell them at the end that now they are ready to start their rookie training in the Real Eve World where they will have to grind for those skills and ships and had access in the demo. 8. Tell them that in Real Eve World they are easy prey for older players and that they should be expecting to be hunted. 9. Teach them how they can avoid the most foolish rookie mistakes (there is enough statistical info on the forums to identify those). 10. Kick them out of the DEMO at the end of the period telling them that their access to it is blocked and they can use their login info to access their account on Tranquility. Someone might point out that I (talking about myself) did not have that and am still here. Yes, I am, because I can be stubborn and miss StarTrek too much ! My original post will tell you that even that is barely enough. There is no need to use spreadsheets in Eve. Yes you can use spreadsheets to make various aspects of the game easier but you only need do so if that kind of thing appeals to you. If you don't like the numbers games don't play them.
You do have access to unlimited nearly free ships on SiSi already.
I agree that unlimited skill points should be an option on SiSi. I've not been on there since the introduction of injectors but I'm wondering if this is not already available now.
As far as you idea for missions that walk you through stuff step by step those only really apply to other games that are more scripted and linear. Eve is a sandbox that is pretty much wide open. As such you can't really walk anyone through, you just have to find your own way.
The core of this game is the emergent player created content. I see no way that you can use something similar to breadcrumb tutorial questlines to teach someone how to be creative and think outside the box.
To me it seems like you are searching for a way to bring structure and linear gameplay to a game that's core attraction is it's lack of those things.
Eve is the type of game that rewards people who are self-starters. If you like exploring and figuring challenging things out then you'll like this game. If you like having your hand held and walked through linear / scripted gameplay then you should probably be looking for another game.
As far as showing newbros the "right way" to do things, no such thing exists in this game. Even if it did I can guarantee you that no one knows what it is not even the devs. Every so often in this game you'll see a group come up with a new doctrine or way of playing that game that uses mechanics that have been around for years but no one thought to use in that manner and they break the game to the point that the devs have to alter the game to nerf or accommodate the new gameplay.
I wish you luck and good times in Eve, however the scripted gameplay that you discuss here is very un-eve-like. I get the impression from reading this that you are trying to turn Eve into every other MMO out there that must of us have come here to get away from.
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Roenok Baalnorn
Sadistically Sinister
143
|
Posted - 2016.07.01 17:31:20 -
[42] - Quote
Tzuke wrote:Blood Retributor wrote:Thank you, everyone!
I got my answers.
I really appreciate the time and thought that you put into your replies! I can only echo your thoughts about the game. This is my 3rd attempt at EVE in a decade. I'm doing better this time than my previous attempts but I would like to see a "friendlier" environment for new players. It hasn't happened in the last decade and I doubt it will change at all. While other mmo's spend god knows how much on expansions, updates whatever you call it, fundamentally EVE is the same game (or appears to me) as it always was. Something still appeals to me about EVE and I guess that's how you feel. Maybe Star Citizen or No man's sky will be a better alternative for us than EVE..who knows Eve has changed loads since i started playing. But most of the changes in eve are geared towards sov alliances and PVP so if you dont do either one of these such as a high sec miner, its going to seem like the game is changing much slower than it is. Also CCP tends to do smaller "xpacks" but more of them. For example, WOW has a major xpack( which isnt really as major as you would think) about every 2 years. Outside of those xpacks very little changes in that game for 2 years. In eve, in the last couple of months they have done a load of major changes. Skill injectors, citadels, and a complete rework of capitals( as well as adding a lot of new capital mods) have been the biggies i can think off hand. Even now they are introducing two new pirate capitals that will be available to players and its not been that long since they introduced a whole new class of capitals.
If you live in high sec all those capitals changes wont affect you or matter to you nor affect your gameplay so you likely dont pay attention to them.
In addition they have been reworking all mods with tiericide, upgraded the camera with more functions. have changed objects in the game to look better and be more in line with games made today, and gave the servers a major upgrade which improves gameplay.
CCP just doesnt make as big of a deal to the world about it as most game companies do. Eve is always evolving you just have to pay attention.
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KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
369
|
Posted - 2016.07.01 21:32:11 -
[43] - Quote
Blood Retributor wrote:KaarBaak wrote:When faced with the myriad opportunities offered by EvE, folks like yourself freeze-up like a deer in the headlights. Unsuccessful pod pilots cringe in fear at such daunting opportunity. And there are lots of those. It's nothing to feel bad about. EvE is not for everyone. It's for the creative. The imaginative. The ambitious. The adventurous. KB Thanks!!! You made me feel so much better . And provided a very constructive and informative answer !!! May your path lead you to people who will be as helpful as yourself! KaarBaak wrote:You can be a bad pilot and still garner respect in this game. But you cannot be a miserable pilot and hope to gain any respect.KB The "respect" in an online game is the least thing I care about! My part is to behave with dignity and show respect for others wherever I go, will other people respect me or despise me for that is out of my control. Thanks again! No problem! Any time. If I see you in-game I'll be sure to wave.
Remember...it's just a game.
KB
Dum Spiro Spero
Not getting SP for not killing a rat is like not getting ore for not mining an asteroid.
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Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2016.07.01 22:00:03 -
[44] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: To me it seems like you are searching for a way to bring structure and linear gameplay to a game that's core attraction is it's lack of those things ...
..... If you like having your hand held and walked through linear / scripted gameplay then you should probably be looking for another game.
...... the scripted gameplay that you discuss here is very un-eve-like. I get the impression from reading this that you are trying to turn Eve into every other MMO out there that must of us have come here to get away from.
I guess the common rule "people see what they want to see" applies even to the exceptional people who play Eve for a long time.
Would you be so kind to show me where in my posts I have said "change Eve"? I expressly stated that my suggestion applies to new user/player experience.
I have also stated that it all depends on priorities: If CCP is OK with the current state of things than whatever I wrote should be simply disregarded.
According to some websites (I think you know to which ones I am referring to) one can see that the number of players/accounts logging in dropped considerably since 2014.
Any subscription based business model has to take into the consideration the "attrition rate" factor. They have to either decrease the attrition rate or increase the number of those that join to at least stay in business even if they do not care about expanding.
That was my whole point in suggesting whatever I suggested. And being a new player I thought it might be helpful to provide the perspective of a noob. I just have the stupid habit of caring.
If I am allowed to use an exaggeration, then I would say that taking a number of big city common/untrained office workers and dropping them into the middle of the jungle giving them some general hints will not help most of them survive. This approach can be good for a survival test, but is definitely not good to maintain/grow a successful business.
Please, let's forget whatever I said and let's have fun in Eve the way it is. I might even ask the moderator to remove my suggestion and whatever followed. Just to avoid the need to be polite and explain over and over the same thing. Getting tired!
See you out there! |
Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2016.07.01 22:02:52 -
[45] - Quote
KaarBaak wrote: If I see you in-game I'll be sure to wave.
Sure you will! With a couple of salvos ! |
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
371
|
Posted - 2016.07.01 22:14:23 -
[46] - Quote
Blood Retributor wrote:KaarBaak wrote: If I see you in-game I'll be sure to wave. Sure you will! With a couple of salvos ! I use ~lazors~!
Keep an eye out for a disco-geddon.
KB
Dum Spiro Spero
Not getting SP for not killing a rat is like not getting ore for not mining an asteroid.
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1506
|
Posted - 2016.07.01 23:03:15 -
[47] - Quote
Blood Retributor wrote:
Please, let's forget whatever I said and let's have fun in Eve the way it is. I might even ask the moderator to remove my suggestion and whatever followed. Just to avoid the need to be polite and explain over and over the same thing. Getting tired!
See you out there!
I was not trying to make you feel bad for your post just provide some insight into what makes Eve different from other games. I came to this game from WoW and played it as if it were WoW and had a rough time with the game until I took a step back and dropped many of the preconceptions that I came to the game with.
Your opinion is just as valid as mine. I was not trying to correct you or change your mind. Just show you a different perspective that you can choose to take or leave.
It's your game time play it as you wish and don't let myself nor anyone else tell you how to do it.
I seem to speak kind of weird and people often don't understand me IRL, it's even worse in written or typed communications. Sorry if you took my offering a different perspective as a correction or reprimand. Nothing of the sort was intended. |
Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2016.07.02 02:17:05 -
[48] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote: Nothing of the sort was intended.
No problem.
I learned my lesson!
Fly safe!
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ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1506
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Posted - 2016.07.02 02:32:07 -
[49] - Quote
Blood Retributor wrote: I learned my lesson!
Fly safe!
That makes it sound uni-directional, hierarchical or one-sided.
I was hoping for something more equilateral, conversational and sharing. I guess that I might need to learn when to keep my weirdness to myself.
anyways, have fun and fly it like you stole it from your ex-wife in the divorce. |
Blood Retributor
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2016.07.02 03:48:46 -
[50] - Quote
ergherhdfgh wrote:Blood Retributor wrote: I learned my lesson!
Fly safe!
That makes it sound uni-directional, hierarchical or one-sided.
I did not want to sound rude. Sorry about that!
English is not my first and not even second language.
Sometimes my straightforwardness comes out as rude.
Have a great time in Eve! |
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Memphis Baas
1670
|
Posted - 2016.07.02 05:04:03 -
[51] - Quote
You two need some bounties on your heads. |
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