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Aknot Wat
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:40:00 -
[1]
Not at an unreasonable level but just as much as any players could.
This could help reduce the amount of high sec gank squads. It would not unbalance the game as it would still be possible but just make it much harder.
Also adds a level of realism. It's not like when the cops show up they beat the bad guy with a stick but still let him continue to stab the victim. At least they shouldn't! ;)
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Murukan
Minmatar Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.03.07 05:50:00 -
[2]
cops don't show up instantly either so it's pretty damn easy to pump 30 bullets in your victims head before they do.
Manlove by Zaphod Jones
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Samirol
Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire
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Posted - 2007.03.07 06:09:00 -
[3]
high sec gank squads are not a problem, have something valuable? put it in a freighter
http://www.iknowderek.com/
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Fester Addams
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.07 07:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Samirol high sec gank squads are not a problem, have something valuable? put it in a freighter
Its hard to mine in a freighter and high sec killing is very often a case of killing mining barges.
I do however disagree with concord tanking you in highsec, one of the good things about eve is that even in the safe areas you can be attacked.
The power and response time of concord can naturally be tweaked.
As for moving valuable stuff...
Not long ago I shipped my last T2 BPO from lowsec into empire to where I do my production... I used a scout and a AF, didnt even run afoul of anything.
Shipping valuables only demand some planning and its safe enough.
The only real nono is to stuff all your valuables into an indy and autopilot your way along a main highway.
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Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2007.03.07 07:35:00 -
[5]
People are killing barges in hisec? Those bastid griefers! CCP should ban them all!
"Sadly this is the only game I've ever played that encourages and rewards people for being jerks and penalizes people that don't" -Forum Alt |
Jernau Gurgeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.07 08:26:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aknot Wat Not at an unreasonable level but just as much as any players could.
This could help reduce the amount of high sec gank squads. It would not unbalance the game as it would still be possible but just make it much harder.
Also adds a level of realism. It's not like when the cops show up they beat the bad guy with a stick but still let him continue to stab the victim. At least they shouldn't! ;)
If it's realism you want, how about it making it so that it takes thirty minutes for CONCORD to show up?
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Big Al
Ki Shoda
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:10:00 -
[7]
5k dps + sentries is already pretty reasonable.
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Stitcher
Caldari J.I.T. Enterprises Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Samirol high sec gank squads are not a problem, have something valuable? put it in a freighter
Outbreak would beg to differ, I think. There's a video out there of them taking down called "Karma" which involves them using something like a 20-man suicide dominix gang to bring down a freighter.
It's rather epic. ***
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RaTTuS
BIG Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:27:00 -
[9]
This Thread is what your looking for -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal | RaTTuS @ Skills Showroom
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Caletha Reborn
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:48:00 -
[10]
I've always thought Hisec ganks where bad, everything you read about hisec says its 'safe'. Yet its not, and up until late February, everyone would (and could) say "Use a freighter".
However, Outbreak showed us that even freighters are no longer safe. Its rather 'funny' to see that even before Concord arrived, the freighter was already into structure.
Concord does try to stop the damage done to you (as you can see in that vid) by jamming the attacker. However, as you see with drone boats where half the damage comes from their drones. This had little to no effect.
In the end you have to be glad that freighters dont drop cargo and that the only reason for people to suicide on your freighter would be to really grief you.
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hotgirl933
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Posted - 2007.03.07 11:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: hotgirl933 on 07/03/2007 11:45:41
Originally by: Kuolematon People are killing barges in hisec? Those bastid griefers! CCP should ban them all!
lazy players deserve what they get and they often do.
I mean that in a nice logical way if they are to lazy to take precautions and protect themselves ( Covert ops) is a great way to avoid being poppped ofc moving small stuff t2 hauler for large stuff or just plate to the max a BS ( actually a battleship in empire is the best idea out)
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Agor Dirdonen
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Posted - 2007.03.07 12:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Caletha Reborn I've always thought Hisec ganks where bad, everything you read about hisec says its 'safe'. Yet its not, and up until late February, everyone would (and could) say "Use a freighter".
However, Outbreak showed us that even freighters are no longer safe. Its rather 'funny' to see that even before Concord arrived, the freighter was already into structure.
Imho, it's awesome that stuff like that is possible. At least the 20 BS gank squad has to buy new insurances for new ships which would still be around a 500 mil loss, just to take down a freighter in empire.
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Xelios
Minmatar Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.03.07 12:25:00 -
[13]
I think there's already enough deterrent for high sec ganking. CONCORD shows up and permajams you, then makes sure you lose your ship while the sentries are already dishing out a few thousand DPS. Not to mention the security hit.
Maybe if people stopped shipping hundreds of millions in assets in a paper thin indy there wouldn't be so many gank squads to begin with. If you're doing a lot of hauling in empire it's well worth the time to train for Transports.
Anyone remember?
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Caletha Reborn
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Posted - 2007.03.07 13:39:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Imho, it's awesome that stuff like that is possible. At least the 20 BS gank squad has to buy new insurances for new ships which would still be around a 500 mil loss, just to take down a freighter in empire.
Wait until freighters start dropping cans (to be honest, I thought the wrecks would allow freights to drop stuff, but guess it didnt turn out that way). Then 500m loss doesnt seem all that much at the possibility of gaining billions upon billions.
Fact is, if a freighter isnt safe, a transport sure as hell isnt, and we already know that indy's arent.
Risk vs Reward is what Eve is about, I dont see 25m and a 0.1 sec loss as a risk. With freighters there's currently no reward, so I'm not afraid of freighters getting ganked all over the place.
But you tell me what the risk is for 5 people in a caracal to blow up an indy (with a bit more you could blow up transport ships just as easy). Or 10 to blow up a transport ship.
I'm surprised no one is using the 'cheap' stealth bombers for transport ships yet (not the manti, but the others that are around 8m a pop). Much higher DPS, sure cost is higher too, but you could blow up an transport with 5 stealth bombers.
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Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.03.08 09:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Caletha Reborn
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Imho, it's awesome that stuff like that is possible. At least the 20 BS gank squad has to buy new insurances for new ships which would still be around a 500 mil loss, just to take down a freighter in empire.
Wait until freighters start dropping cans (to be honest, I thought the wrecks would allow freights to drop stuff, but guess it didnt turn out that way). Then 500m loss doesnt seem all that much at the possibility of gaining billions upon billions.
Fact is, if a freighter isnt safe, a transport sure as hell isnt, and we already know that indy's arent.
If we're talking about "safe" equating to "uneconomical to gank", then a ship type being safe is as much a function of what you put in it as the ship itself.
In the same way as it's silly to jam an expanded Iteron V full of megacyte and afk it through empire, just because stuff can fit in a freighter doesn't mean it should be safe to do so.
There will always be a point, in any ship, where if you cram it full of stuff of sufficient value per m3, it will become viable to gank it. The only place there is really a debate is about where that line should be drawn.
To have that balance debate, it would be interesting for someone to calculate for each ship and a variety of setups, the "gank cost per m3 of cargo" (e.g. if it cost 500mill to gank a freighter with 750k m3 cargo, gc/m3 = 667isk/m3). That would then allow comparisons between ships (bearing in mind that some are supposed to be better at this measure than others), and against the value density of various potential cargo items (e.g. with pyer at 9 isk per unit, it has a value density of 900isk/m3).
Then you can calculate other factors for ship-cargo combinations, such as maximum safe utilization (you don't have to fill your ship to the brim every time, after all). For the freighter-pyerite combination guesstimated above, we'd end up at a 74% utilisation rate, meaning it's safe to put only 555k m3 pyer into your freighter.
You can then factor in other effectiveness factors, such as travel time, into the assessment. In the example above, you may not be making full use of the freighter capacity, but you're still shifting the eqivalent of about 20 fully-expanded industrials in one go. Provided the freighter is less than 20 times slower in making the trip, then the freighter is still an attractive and effective option.
You could also add in the effect of groups to the mix (capital ships are, after all, designed to be used in groups, and the freighter is a capital ship). Though then you get into the whole debate of effective measures the escort can take, and at what point (x+y) industrials becomes more effective than x freighters with y escort.
If you can find combinations of ships and cargo that you would expect to work, and don't, then these numbers will help support the case for change. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
DJTheBaron
Caldari FATAL REVELATIONS FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.08 11:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Caletha Reborn
However, Outbreak showed us that even freighters are no longer safe. Its rather 'funny' to see that even before Concord arrived, the freighter was already into structure.
Freighters only have around 5k shield 5k armor afaik. __________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
Masochistic Cannibal
Amarr 3M Incorporated
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Posted - 2007.03.08 11:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: DJTheBaron
Originally by: Caletha Reborn
However, Outbreak showed us that even freighters are no longer safe. Its rather 'funny' to see that even before Concord arrived, the freighter was already into structure.
Freighters only have around 5k shield 5k armor afaik.
What the **** are you smoking ??!!
Did someone sell you a frieghter ? I'd have a closer look, think you may find you brought a 1billion isk Iteron v [;)]
Cannibal
I eat babies ! [Hauling services available~ Contact ingame] |
GO MaZ
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.03.08 12:05:00 -
[18]
5k shield, 22k armor... conservative estimate puts that domi gank squad as outputting 8kdps via drones alone depending on skills, add in gun damage until they're all jammed and its easy to understand why it died so fast *snip* please keep sigs EVE-related. Contact [email protected] if you have any further questions - Karass Sayfo |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.03.08 12:44:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 08/03/2007 12:40:30
Originally by: GO MaZ 5k shield, 22k armor... conservative estimate puts that domi gank squad as outputting 8kdps via drones alone depending on skills, add in gun damage until they're all jammed and its easy to understand why it died so fast
and 100.000 structure.
And Outbreak's action to gank a freighter in high-sec was really great and it should be possible to do things like this in the future. If you are willing to waste so many BS to kill a freighter, then you deserve to be successfull. There was a nice story around it and things like that make EVE a great game.
___________ Muuuhhh !!! |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2007.03.08 12:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Caletha Reborn
Originally by: Agor Dirdonen Imho, it's awesome that stuff like that is possible. At least the 20 BS gank squad has to buy new insurances for new ships which would still be around a 500 mil loss, just to take down a freighter in empire.
Wait until freighters start dropping cans (to be honest, I thought the wrecks would allow freights to drop stuff, but guess it didnt turn out that way). Then 500m loss doesnt seem all that much at the possibility of gaining billions upon billions.
Fact is, if a freighter isnt safe, a transport sure as hell isnt, and we already know that indy's arent.
Risk vs Reward is what Eve is about, I dont see 25m and a 0.1 sec loss as a risk. With freighters there's currently no reward, so I'm not afraid of freighters getting ganked all over the place.
But you tell me what the risk is for 5 people in a caracal to blow up an indy (with a bit more you could blow up transport ships just as easy). Or 10 to blow up a transport ship.
I'm surprised no one is using the 'cheap' stealth bombers for transport ships yet (not the manti, but the others that are around 8m a pop). Much higher DPS, sure cost is higher too, but you could blow up an transport with 5 stealth bombers.
I did the maths on this a couple of months ago, and it's cheaper and more effective to use Caracals (based off a Purifier hull retailing for 4m or so).
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Junot Nevone
Minmatar Bastion Industries
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Posted - 2007.03.08 13:18:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Junot Nevone on 08/03/2007 13:19:54 Edited by: Junot Nevone on 08/03/2007 13:15:16
Originally by: Jernau Gurgeh
If it's realism you want, how about it making it so that it takes thirty minutes for CONCORD to show up?
I would support that if, since we are being realistic, the people that performed the gank were then exiled from Empire, or at least the empire in which the gank happened, permanently after Concord arrived. The person would be attacked instantly if they ever returned and would be blinking red to everyone in that space. It might be possible to someday remove the exile once the furor had cooled down and the person that was attacked had received sufficient compensation.
For example, you and your fifteen friends suicide gank a freighter in high sec in Minmatar space. The ship explodes but the loot that dropped is immediately confiscated no matter who loots it by Concord since it is evidence unless the loot is immediately smuggled out by a very fast blockade runner. The original owner might receive the loot back at some later date if it was not smuggled.
Your and your friends have your ships blown up by Concord, unless you can somehow manage to evade your pursuers and are immediately exiled from Minmatar space and the Republic Fleet tells you if you return you will face financial penalties and any ship you are in will be destroyed. After a month, speculative date, you receive a message from a Republic Fleet agent saying he has heard about your unfortunate situation and "Ahem, for a sufficient amount of compensation he might make the charges disappear if you first persuaded the person you attacked to stop pursuing legal action."
You contact the person you attacked and he says that yes if you pay him one billion isk he won't raise a ruckus if the charges somehow disappear. You do so, via a contract to remove the possibility of one party defaulting on the agreement. You then contact your inside agent and pay his fee of a hundred million isk and you are now allowed back in Minmatar space.
If the person you originally attacked did not want a deal at all, then after another month or more you might get another message from your inside agent saying, "Hey, the interest in your case has pretty much died down and for double my original fee, I bet I could make those charges go away no matter what that freighter owner you popped says. You in?"
Note: All isk figures were roughly calculated on the base price of a freighter and otherwise pretty much pulled out of thin air. The actual amounts would likely require careful balancing.
[EDIT] Heh, damn spell checker changed all the "ganks" to "gunks" :)
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Sean Dillon
Caldari LEGI0N
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Posted - 2007.03.08 16:26:00 -
[22]
What about you learn to tank yourself, and put a little efford in it?
If you could care less to train up for a stronger ship or to lazy to put a semi decent tank on your hauler I could care less if I gank you in high secure space.
In my opinion CCP should make it even more realistic. Like the jihad jeep in BF2. Put a raven full of explosive's ammo, park it somewhere near a busy point and blow it up and look at all the wrecks that appear.
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Badhands
Gallente The Huns Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.03.08 16:42:00 -
[23]
My limited powers of observation lead me to believe that people are acting like 0utbreaks gank was for profit... it wasn't. It was only designed to hurt. They gained nothing of value, in game.
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Wolf Pershaw
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Posted - 2007.03.08 17:26:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kuolematon People are killing barges in hisec? Those bastid griefers! CCP should ban them all!
Umm no, I've seen people say in local that they found a macro miner and are willing to destroy their ship. What happens is that people donate ISK for the user to preform a suicide run no the macro miner.. normally an Armageddon fully loaded w/ smart bombs. If timed right, the BS can take out the barge and indy (when it shows up ) in the first wave, and take out the pods in the second before CONCORD destroys the BS.
This hinders the macro user from making real money by exploiting a game.
What would be better is that CCP should implement a way of forcing people who use barges to be in a player corp. That way, another corp can War Dec the Macro miners hindering their business completely instead of hiding in an NPC corp.
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