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Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M
18
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
At the weekend I set out exploring and within 2 hops from my home system plus a quick visit to a wormhole I'd earned 100m isk
Today 6 hops and and visits to 3 wormholes later I've scraped together a measly 6m isk tops
So that was todays patch right? it must have broken something?
well....... No.
Actually all that happened was that at the weekend I did the equivalent of rolling a couple of high numbers and today I was rolling low.
I wanted to recommend a book I picked up over the weekend which explains all this really well with lots of real world examples in non technical language: "The drunkards walk: how randomness rules our lives" by Leonard Mlodinow - it explains why we *all* see patterns when there are none and are fooled by randomness.
(I have nothing to do with this book BTW just strikes me as very relevant and it explains things well in non technical language) |
Jenn Makanen
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
100
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
came expecting a whine about numbers.
Left pleasantly surprised. |
Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
286
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Posted - 2011.12.20 17:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
Bah, was hoping for a new thread for fun times.
Oh well, nice post OP.
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TriadSte
3rd Division
26
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Posted - 2011.12.20 20:49:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ah may I point out your totally incorrect.
You see, this game is man made and any mathematical algorithm placed in a game is never truly random because it is man made. |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
268
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Posted - 2011.12.20 22:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
TriadSte wrote:Ah may I point out your totally incorrect.
You see, this game is man made and any mathematical algorithm placed in a game is never truly random because it is man made.
Not necessarily. They could be using a true hardware RNG instead of a software pRNG. I have a feeling that they're using a software RNG, since it's plenty random for a game, but they might have a true RNG if they care enough. |
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
89
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Posted - 2011.12.20 22:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
mxzf wrote:TriadSte wrote:Ah may I point out your totally incorrect.
You see, this game is man made and any mathematical algorithm placed in a game is never truly random because it is man made. Not necessarily. They could be using a true hardware RNG instead of a software pRNG. I have a feeling that they're using a software RNG, since it's plenty random for a game, but they might have a true RNG if they care enough. There is only one logical conclusion at this point. Unless you rub Buddha's belly 7 times counter-clockwise before you warp to the sig, you will get nothing. In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has angered numerous people for many different reasons and is widely considered as a 'bad move'. |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2011.12.20 22:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
In a game like Eve, any reasonable pseudo-random number generator is basically as good as real random numbers because of the non-deterministic state of the game and the number of actors drawing from the pool of randomness.
Pseudo-random numbers are only a problem in highly deterministic games like Civ, where you can reload and watch the "random" things happen the exact same way. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
171
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Posted - 2011.12.20 23:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
Emperor Salazar wrote:Bah, was hoping for a new thread for fun times.
Oh well, nice post OP.
What he said.
Bah. :DirtKick: |
Substantia Nigra
NFI industrial Revival Of The Talocan Empire
197
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Posted - 2011.12.20 23:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
It **is** a very good book. We can build and sell pretty much every ship. Check my bio for details. Our pirate epic arc completion packages really are very good: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12973&find=unread |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2011.12.20 23:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Hope it's a good read I just ordered it :)
You may enjoy Critical Mass: How on thing leads to another by Philip Ball, very interesting discussions about complex systems and how they exhibit similar behavior at certain complexities.
I can't help myself but comment on randomness as it's something I study. Hardware RNC devices are normally 2 or more quartz clocks whose values are used in an algorithm to calculate a value. I'm thinking they would be using the standard system clock approach here though.
The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system. |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
69
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Posted - 2011.12.21 13:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hell, a lot of RNGs generate entropy from the packets coming in on the network interface. Might not be mathematically random, but close enough for government work.
Oh, and Determinism breaks down when you get to the Quantum level. Welcome to a universe that's just a decomposition wave of qbits. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M
28
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Posted - 2011.12.21 13:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
You may enjoy Critical Mass: How on thing leads to another by Philip Ball, very interesting discussions about complex systems and how they exhibit similar behavior at certain complexities.
I did enjoy it very much.
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system.
Well yes but of course the model to find out what will happen is likely to be as complex as the original system.
I will leave Jorge Luis Borges to comment on that: http://classes.warnercnr.colostate.edu/nr575/files/2011/01/exactitude-in-science.pdf
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Emperor Salazar
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
287
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Posted - 2011.12.21 13:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm saving this thread and intend to link to it whenever this delightful topic is brought up by the uneducated citizens of Eve. |
Arctur Vallfar
Knights Adamant
13
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Posted - 2011.12.21 15:35:00 -
[14] - Quote
Didn't a wise man once say there is no such thing as luck? |
Philip Flatline
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2011.12.21 17:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Arctur Vallfar wrote:Didn't a wise man once say there is no such thing as luck? The man wasn't so wise because everything is about luck. Your actions only influence your chance to get lucky or not.
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RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
178
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Posted - 2011.12.21 18:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Philip Flatline wrote:Arctur Vallfar wrote:Didn't a wise man once say there is no such thing as luck? The man wasn't so wise because everything is about luck. Your actions only influence your chance to get lucky or not.
This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"
A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"
The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"
A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer. |
Tabernack en Chasteaux
W.A.S.P Sons of Sylph
19
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Posted - 2011.12.21 21:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote: This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"
A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"
The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"
A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer.
I love this and will soon be quoting it to all my friends. Source? |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
181
|
Posted - 2011.12.21 22:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Tabernack en Chasteaux wrote:RubyPorto wrote: This farmer had only one horse, and one day the horse ran away. The neighbors came to condole over his terrible loss. The farmer said, "What makes you think it is so terrible?"
A month later, the horse came home--this time bringing with her two beautiful wild horses. The neighbors became excited at the farmer's good fortune. Such lovely strong horses! The farmer said, "What makes you think this is good fortune?"
The farmer's son was thrown from one of the wild horses and broke his leg. All the neighbors were very distressed. Such bad luck! The farmer said, "What makes you think it is bad?"
A war came, and every able-bodied man was conscripted and sent into battle. Only the farmer's son, because he had a broken leg, remained. The neighbors congratulated the farmer. "What makes you think this is good?" said the farmer.
I love this and will soon be quoting it to all my friends. Source?
It's an old Chinese philosophical story, so you'll find tons of sources and variations if you google. The original way I heard it the farmer's line was "Maybe" and here's a link to that version i just found. |
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
10
|
Posted - 2011.12.22 00:50:00 -
[19] - Quote
Haha, you sly devil. |
Powie XIII
Pilipino Corp ROMANIAN-LEGION
3
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Posted - 2011.12.22 03:32:00 -
[20] - Quote
Damn it, i was about to tell him to self destruct. It seems that isn't necessary. GÇ£They see me trollin', they hatin'GÇ¥ |
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Tabernack en Chasteaux
W.A.S.P Sons of Sylph
19
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Posted - 2011.12.22 05:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:It's an old Chinese philosophical story, so you'll find tons of sources and variations if you google. The original way I heard it the farmer's line was "Maybe" and here's a link to that version i just found.
I bookmarked that site because it is awesome. Thanks!
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Scrindle Kavees
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2011.12.22 13:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
1. Your head is venting smoke
2. Good book, recommended |
Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M
33
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Posted - 2011.12.22 14:24:00 -
[23] - Quote
Scrindle Kavees wrote:1. Your head is venting smoke
These forums will do that to a man.... |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
7
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Posted - 2011.12.24 01:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:Hope it's a good read I just ordered it :)
You may enjoy Critical Mass: How on thing leads to another by Philip Ball, very interesting discussions about complex systems and how they exhibit similar behavior at certain complexities.
I can't help myself but comment on randomness as it's something I study. Hardware RNC devices are normally 2 or more quartz clocks whose values are used in an algorithm to calculate a value. I'm thinking they would be using the standard system clock approach here though.
The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system. Came expecting rage thread and free tears.
Discover discussion on quantum indeterminacy, the pros and cons of RNG vs. pRNG and the nature of Laplace's demon.
Pleasantly surprised. |
Cherry Nobyl
Shadow Strike Syndicate
28
|
Posted - 2011.12.25 04:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Simi Kusoni wrote:...........
Discover discussion on quantum indeterminacy, the pros and cons of RNG vs. pRNG and the nature of Laplace's demon.
Pleasantly surprised.....
"I had to see it. There wasn't much left. But when I was there it was strange. I suddenly had this feeling that everything was connected. It's like I could see the whole thing, one long chain of events that stretched all the way back before Larkhill. I felt like I could see everything that happened, and everything that is going to happen. It was like a perfect pattern, laid out in front of me. And I realised we're all part of it, and all trapped by it." finch - v
welcome to fractal node zulu, please have your deterrminism ready for inspection.
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Tasko Pal
Spallated Garniferous Schist
22
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 19:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system.
Who can measure the system from inside the system? |
Dr Nefarius
SniggWaffe Band of Abos
2
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Posted - 2011.12.26 19:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tasko Pal wrote:FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system.
Who can measure the system from inside the system?
A wizard. Like Gandalf or god.
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
9
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 21:18:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tasko Pal wrote:FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
The interesting point is that if we live in a completely finite universe, with no external influences, determinism states that nothing is random as the cause of any event can be predicted by measuring the system before the event and extrapolating the data using the rules applied to the system.
Who can measure the system from inside the system? Also, in this respect, determinism is wrong :)
Some events do not require a cause. E.g. radioactive decay, vacuum energy fluctuations etc. They're are statistically predictable, but still not deterministic in nature. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
2160
|
Posted - 2011.12.26 21:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Yup. That's the problem with having a big old pattern recognition machine stapled on top of your neck: when fed with uninterpretable data, it tends to invent its own reality. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
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