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Enders Game - Can't Believe You Recommended This!

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Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 12:37:00 - [1] I had a thread long long long ago (most likely in a galaxy far away too) where I asked for some book ideas. There were many posts giving me lists of books. I frantically scribbled most of them down and skipped (Yes Skipped) my way to the nearest purveyor of tomes. I bought up a good deal of the books listed, keeping my eyes peeled for those that were given high praise and mentioned often. Ive read through a good deal of them now and I' am currently half way through Robin Hobb's Assassins Apprentice. Which im really enjoying so far. But anyway I digress. Enders Game! It sucked I thank god only for the fact that it was so short. Similarly the only reason i finished it was because I thought that since it was a series it would undoubtedly unfold this massive web of intrigue and suspense. Nope. I found it to be the most horribly lacking little story i have ever had the misfortune of reading. And ive read Stephen King books. I found it telling that in the authors notes in the front few pages of the book. He finds it neccesary to defend his writings. Horribly soulless dribble of a story it was devoid of any skill, feeling or purpose. And i see there making a movie of it. Drivel and I can't believe you guys rated it so highly shame on you. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:20:00 - [2] The later books elaborated on the story far more. Enders Game is basically dumbed down for kids in comparison. IMO its vastly overrated. You want good science fiction writing, you read Iain M. Banks, Larry Niven, Stephen Baxter, Arthur C. Clarke, Isaac Asimov, Greg Bear, Gregory Benford, and so forth. You don't read Ender's Game. Orson Scott Card is not on the same level. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Gunstar Zero Caldari Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:24:00 - [3] Edited by: Gunstar Zero on 09/03/2007 13:20:41 People tell me Hyperion is fantastic, I can't read past the first few chapters without falling asleep. I love all of Peter F Hamilton's work especially Night's Dawn - lots of people hate it. If someone's enjoyed it, it's a good book to them.
nim TsuNim Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:43:00 - [4] You didn't like Ender's Game? Right then, here's another book you should avoid. "I am Legend" by Richard Matheson. Also avoid "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. Beware of any and all of Richard Morgan's stuff. Don't even touch stuff by Larry Niven .... no don't even look at it. And for pitty sake, make sure you run for your life whenever you see any book on the "Sci-Fi Masterworks" list.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:45:00 - [5] Originally by: nim TsuNim You didn't like Ender's Game? Right then, here's another book you should avoid. "I am Legend" by Richard Matheson. Also avoid "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. Beware of any and all of Richard Morgan's stuff. Don't even touch stuff by Larry Niven .... no don't even look at it. And for pitty sake, make sure you run for your life whenever you see any book on the "Sci-Fi Masterworks" list. That's like saying "I didn't like World of Warcraft, so I'm certainly going to hate EVE." The books you listed as so utterly and completely different that the biggest thing they have in common is that they take place "in the future." --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:46:00 - [6] I personally loved my Philip K. **** and Greg Egan books. Ender's Game was a poor soap opera in space with half baked ideas. The thought 'A Poor Mans Mind Fart' comes to mind. Im was just surprised. After my thread and someone elses on the same subject months later the name Enders Game kept popping up over and over. I should have known better As I generally abhor all things of 'popular' culture Executioner Model Blackbird Model
nim TsuNim Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Dark Shikari That's like saying "I didn't like World of Warcraft, so I'm certainly going to hate EVE." The books you listed as so utterly and completely different that the biggest thing they have in common is that they take place "in the future." Not quite. The point is that they are excellent books and authors, not that they share another commonality. I consider Ender's Game to share the mantle of excellent book. PS. OP. Please also skip stuff by Iain M. Banks. You'll go blind.
Malcanis Galactech Industries Ltd. Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:51:00 - [8] Originally by: nim TsuNim You didn't like Ender's Game? Right then, here's another book you should avoid. "I am Legend" by Richard Matheson. Also avoid "The Forever War" by Joe Haldeman. Beware of any and all of Richard Morgan's stuff. Don't even touch stuff by Larry Niven .... no don't even look at it. And for pitty sake, make sure you run for your life whenever you see any book on the "Sci-Fi Masterworks" list. Rubbish. PS Alastair Reynolds and Iain Mcleod = win PPS: And Bruce Sterling... thinking specifically of Schizmatrix here.
nim TsuNim Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.09 13:52:00 - [9] Originally by: Ealiom I personally loved my Philip K. **** and Greg Egan books. Ender's Game was a poor soap opera in space with half baked ideas. Talking about good old space operas, have you read Stephen Donaldson's "The Real Story". It's another relatively short one and it's the first in his deeply political "Gap Series" but doesn't have much in the way of politics itself. Now that's a real romp, as long as you are not expecting too much. Give it a whirl.
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:01:00 - [10] Originally by: nim TsuNim I consider Ender's Game to share the mantle of excellent book. If you don't mind, and i know its a difficult question to answer, could you tell me one thing. Just one thing from Enders Game that was either a)Original b)Thought prevoking c)Well written d)Where the characters memorable? e)Were there moments of anticipation and suspense? If you can give me a geniune answer to any of those i'll seriously reconsider my views on it. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:04:00 - [11] Edited by: Ealiom on 09/03/2007 14:01:42 Originally by: nim TsuNim Talking about good old space operas, have you read Stephen Donaldson's "The Real Story". It's another relatively short one and it's the first in his deeply political "Gap Series" but doesn't have much in the way of politics itself. Now that's a real romp, as long as you are not expecting too much. Give it a whirl. Now that has memorable characters and events. Donaldson best work was Thomas Covenant series, but ive got and read the whole GAP series. You can note its influence on the EVE community by searching for Angus Thermopyle (Dont call him Thermopile) and Nick Sucurso. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:05:00 - [12] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 09/03/2007 14:02:40 Originally by: nim TsuNim Originally by: Dark Shikari That's like saying "I didn't like World of Warcraft, so I'm certainly going to hate EVE." The books you listed as so utterly and completely different that the biggest thing they have in common is that they take place "in the future." Not quite. The point is that they are excellent books and authors I don't consider Ender's Game that good. To me, it was an elementary-school-level adaptation of a much more in-depth series. Readable, sure, but not nearly as good as the ones that came after. And Card just isn't as good as today's masters of the genre, to be honest. Oh, and I forgot David Brin. He's really good. I keep going back and rereading books from his Uplift series every once in a while and wishing it hadn't ended with the sixth book --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Ealiom on 09/03/2007 14:26:22 Originally by: Dark Shikari Oh, and I forgot David Brin. He's really good. I keep going back and rereading books from his Uplift series every once in a while Hi praise indeed, but I don't if I can trust you folks anymore I warn you if he's a stinker I will find you! Executioner Model Blackbird Model
nim TsuNim Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Ealiom If you don't mind, and i know its a difficult question to answer, could you tell me one thing. Just one thing from Enders Game that was either...... Well, I thought that the whole thing was well written but as for a single and specific example of something that was thought provoking......the (nearly as we see in later books) complete xenocide of an entire species in an unwitting fashion by a young child while at the same time not realising that with each decision he was asking hundreds of people to throw away their lives. There are all kinds of ethical and moral questions thrown up by that. I also enjoyed greatly the social dynamic of the whole training regime and living situation of all those gifted children. It's been a while since I read it, but those came to mind. As for memorable characters, and now this is where I might be treading onto the sequels (as I've said it's been a while), I enjoyed Ender's character greatly and also BeanÆs but was intrigued by the "virtual" Loke and Demosthenes and the ability that these two agents had (deliberately engineered) to shape and influence events through writing and publishing on the Nets. Like big stakes blogging. HTH
Warp away ITS A CIRCUS	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:50:00 - [15] Edited by: Warp away on 09/03/2007 14:48:35 Originally by: nim TsuNim Originally by: Ealiom If you don't mind, and i know its a difficult question to answer, could you tell me one thing. Just one thing from Enders Game that was either...... Well, I thought that the whole thing was well written but as for a single and specific example of something that was thought provoking......the (nearly as we see in later books) complete xenocide of an entire species in an unwitting fashion by a young child while at the same time not realising that with each decision he was asking hundreds of people to throw away their lives. There are all kinds of ethical and moral questions thrown up by that. I also enjoyed greatly the social dynamic of the whole training regime and living situation of all those gifted children. It's been a while since I read it, but those came to mind. As for memorable characters, and now this is where I might be treading onto the sequels (as I've said it's been a while), I enjoyed Ender's character greatly and also BeanÆs but was intrigued by the "virtual" Loke and Demosthenes and the ability that these two agents had (deliberately engineered) to shape and influence events through writing and publishing on the Nets. Like big stakes blogging. HTH I agree with this. Enders game is a more humanistic take on the sci-fi genre. But somtimes it gets a tad too soft, if you know what I mean. Its follow up, Speaker for the Dead, is fantastic, especially in its cultural scope. Got book nr 3 in the series, Xenocide, laying on my desk here, looking forward to reading it.
Kari Kayira Amarr	Posted - 2007.03.09 14:55:00 - [16] Ender's Game is just an expanded short story, and reads as such. The three sequels are much better.
nim TsuNim Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:00:00 - [17] Originally by: Ealiom Donaldson best work was Thomas Covenant series Yup, those were very good indeed. I read the new one that came out, "The Runes of the Earth: The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant", and quite enjoyed that too. I found the whole series completely depressing, in a good way.
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:20:00 - [18] Originally by: nim TsuNim Well, I thought that the whole thing was well written but as for a single and specific example of something that was thought provoking......the (nearly as we see in later books) complete xenocide of an entire species in an unwitting fashion by a young child while at the same time not realising that with each decision he was asking hundreds of people to throw away their lives. A valiant attempt ill give you that. It would have been interesting if it were better written. Or if we actually saw the effects of those decisions on the world of Ender's Game other than a footnote. He felt bad about it sort of style. It was all very detached and lacking for want of a better word. I said it was a mind fart, ellaborating on that I would say his story and your specific example was based around one single idea he had while munching a slice of toast. Wouldn't it be cool if you were manipulated into killing off an entire race and didnt know about it. Me, You, everyone has these sort of ideas, have entertained an idea or thought. A sort of what if. But you cant base an entire story around it in the hope it gels together and ?works? Or more accurately Orson can't because he's not good enough. Originally by: nim TsuNim I also enjoyed greatly the social dynamic of the whole training regime and living situation of all those gifted children. I didn't see any sort of social dynamic. It was a predetermined rise to success of the smaller weaker character. All the interactions and events were just spring boards to further this advancement of his. This again made it feels so forced and fake. Originally by: nim TsuNim As for memorable characters, and now this is where I might be treading onto the sequels (as I've said it's been a while), I enjoyed Ender's character greatly and also BeanÆs but was intrigued by the "virtual" Loke and Demosthenes and the ability that these two agents had (deliberately engineered) to shape and influence events through writing and publishing on the Nets. Like big stakes blogging. Nah 'all' characters in Ender's Game were 2 dimensional and transparent. I felt absolutely nothing for any of them. I couldn't care less about any of them, I felt no emotion. In a good i should care what happens to the characters, I should dislike certain characters and admire and respect others, I should be intrigued by others still. As for the net characters. I found it vaguely interesting but again im sorry but Orson wasnt good enough to make me believe it. Instead I smirked as he wrote how they were influencing generals and diplomats. - Interesting Idea yes 'manipulation of information' but it was a joke in his hands. The idea that in the future as more and more of us are given access to more and more information and from this sea of information great voices can be heard that can and will sway those in power. Its a good idea but many have did it better than Orson 'much' better Hell Dark Shakari's Ghost in the Shell did it better. Im not trying to attack your taste in books or authors but i firmly believe that Ender's Game was lacking in every single area. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:28:00 - [19] Originally by: nim TsuNim Originally by: Ealiom Donaldson best work was Thomas Covenant series Yup, those were very good indeed. I read the new one that came out, "The Runes of the Earth: The Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant", and quite enjoyed that too. I found the whole series completely depressing, in a good way. Sorry epic posting FTL! but ill give an example from this series of books. Thomas Covenant the main protagonist. He really really tries your patience at every step of the story he makes you want to throttle him. But thats the authors magic at work. He then makes you believe in him to feel sorry for and ultimately forgive him but along the way he frequently reminds you that hes a broken man. He more than anything else is human and makes mistakes. Read the Chapter 'Lena' the first time i read it i put the book down in disgust and didnt pick it back up for about 3months (and my friends constant baggering to keep reading) Awesome series and a perfect example of how characters in a story should be. Full of character! Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Iesha Macabre	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:31:00 - [20] Quote: That's like saying "I didn't like World of Warcraft, so I'm certainly going to hate EVE." The books you listed as so utterly and completely different that the biggest thing they have in common is that they take place "in the future." Didn't you do a similar thing once DS? Something about if you didn't like Serenity you wouldn't like Lord of the Rings?
Frezik Celtic Anarchy Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.03.09 15:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Ealiom Originally by: nim TsuNim I consider Ender's Game to share the mantle of excellent book. If you don't mind, and i know its a difficult question to answer, could you tell me one thing. Just one thing from Enders Game that was either a)Original b)Thought prevoking c)Well written d)Where the characters memorable? e)Were there moments of anticipation and suspense? If you can give me a geniune answer to any of those i'll seriously reconsider my views on it. Mostly I like the military tactical elements. Purposefully inflicting damage on your own team to gain a tactical advantage, for instance. The morality behind the story is somewhat shaky--you're meant to sympathize with Ender's actions because he doesn't know what he's really doing. There's also a possibility that Card is an aplogist for a certain German dictator who's name gets removed by the forum filter.
Indigo Silk	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:23:00 - [22] Originally by: Ealiom Sorry epic posting FTL! The fact that you don't like some of the books that I like is unacceptable!!
Lardarz B'stard Amarr Dark Knights of Deneb Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:48:00 - [23] Originally by: Gunstar Zero [ People tell me Hyperion is fantastic, I can't read past the first few chapters without falling asleep. Try reading Ilium first, its a good bit more accessible and gives you an idea of the kind of mad genius writing Dan Simmons is capable of. I am almost finished the Rise of Endymion which is the last in the Hyperion series and it ties everything up nicely. Also, I thought the Nights Dawn trilogy was class. I also have Pandora's Star on the go at the moment. Its great being Amarr, and having 27 charisma, isn't it?
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.09 16:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Iesha Macabre Quote: That's like saying "I didn't like World of Warcraft, so I'm certainly going to hate EVE." The books you listed as so utterly and completely different that the biggest thing they have in common is that they take place "in the future." Didn't you do a similar thing once DS? Something about if you didn't like Serenity you wouldn't like Lord of the Rings? Don't think so, I think I was comparing Serenity and Bebop, which are quite similar. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Rulkez FireStar Inc	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:13:00 - [25] iain m banks and peter f hamilton , the only sci-fi you will ever need
FooB2 Caldari Northern Intelligence Artificial Intelligence.	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:25:00 - [26] you mention decent sci-fi writers yet you dont mention Michael Crichton? Snip Funny sig but not really appropriate for the eve-o forums - hutch Dont force me to make a Derek sig. - FooB
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.09 17:28:00 - [27] Originally by: FooB2 you mention decent sci-fi writers yet you dont mention Michael Crichton? He's not in the same category. Most of the stuff he writes is trumped-up disaster stories of various sorts. I really liked State of Fear though in a sense; its not that it was well-written at all, but it fooled so many people. He basically writes the entire novel using fake/twisted statistics to push an outright lie, and then admits in the notes at the end that he made it all up to demonstrate how easily you can lie with statistics. And people fell for it too! Give the man a cookie. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Plasticine Perfection	Posted - 2007.03.09 21:26:00 - [28] I hate to "me too", but, er, me too. I thought Enders Game was badly written and uninteresting, which is a shame, I hate reading bad books, but I suppose you've got to take the smooth with the crunchy eh. As an aside I don't think I've seen anyone recommend Neal Stephenson yet. The Diamond Age was a great fun book with a superb pacing to it. I've just started Snow Crash and am enjoying it so far, again he writes with amazing pace. He's no master wordsmith, but he's not bad Even further aside, a non-sci-fi recommendation would be Peter Carey, although he's a totally different kettle of fish from ANY sci-fi I've ever read and certainly not for everyone, but possibly the greatest wordsmith I've ever read.

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