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Trovarion Gallente Spiritus Draconis Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.03.11 16:24:00 - [1] Edited by: Trovarion on 11/03/2007 16:21:18 actually I had this question comming up ever since I watched the first movie I ever saw about clones, kind of just remembered it and since EVE got clones too... So you die, but that's cool, since you have that nifty clone of yours sitting in a vat bay in a station far far away. Your memories get transfered, you wake up...gasp...phew it worked, I am alive... But is someone who has your memories really YOU? I mean it wouldn't really satisfy me if I died and someone else - even if he may just look like me to the last wrinkle - lives on with my memories. Thinking about this actually drives me mental if I do it too long =) custom made signatures and banners
Flower Powder	Posted - 2007.03.11 16:27:00 - [2] U die.. Someone that looks exacly the same as u lives on with the last memories that you uploaded to the mainframe. That other person wakes up and plays as u. but u are dead not alive. So cloning is really usefull because you arent immortal.. if you die you die..
Great Artista Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.03.11 16:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Flower Powder U die.. Someone that looks exacly the same as u lives on with the last memories that you uploaded to the mainframe. That other person wakes up and plays as u. but u are dead not alive. So cloning is really usefull because you arent immortal.. if you die you die.. But then again, if no-one told you that you died, would you even notice? ___________________________________
Asestorian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.03.11 17:00:00 - [4] I've thought about it quite a lot myself. My conclusion is that it depends how you define yourself. If you define yourself as the physical entity that is your body, if you were to die and wake up in another body, you are no longer yourself. If you define yourself as your memories and thoughts, then no matter the host for them you are yourself. Meh. --- ---
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2007.03.11 18:21:00 - [5] watch prestige....ooops If I had ú1 for every intelligent comment posted in general discussion, I'd be hideously in debt
Corphus ShaK Scientific	Posted - 2007.03.11 18:40:00 - [6] semantics. are u dead even if ur body still exisits but ur consciousness is long gone ? well this is hyper philospophical and asks the main question if theres something we call a soul. imo a clone is not you, simply because if u make a clone of you while u are still alive its a totally different person. the material we can reproduce (genetic stuff, body, clone) is not everything what makes you yourself. in eve for exapmple the jovians gave the other races the technology to transfer ones consciousness into a new body in the moment ur old body dies. we cant do that today and its hardly imaginable how this is done since science still doesnt know how the human personality (soul, consciousness, etc.) works. also u cant proof the existance of a soul with scientific methods today and its hardly clear if it will be in future.
Oventoasted Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.12 02:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Brolly watch prestige....ooops haha nice They also made a outlimits episode about this. a alien race with the technology to transport them throughout the universe. what they didnt tell the travelers is that they were cloning them and DLing the memories and sending them off to to the clone like EVE. except in this case there was a malfunction and the DL "didn't happen" when it did so there were 2 of the exact same person. my thoughs are when you get podded or die, you are dead. the person that comes back isnt you cept for looks and memories. kinda sad if you think about it. all those Oventoasted's dead floating in space or in some guys hanger (mine too).
Benglada Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.12 03:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Oventoasted Originally by: Brolly watch prestige....ooops haha nice They also made a outlimits episode about this. a alien race with the technology to transport them throughout the universe. what they didnt tell the travelers is that they were cloning them and DLing the memories and sending them off to to the clone like EVE. except in this case there was a malfunction and the DL "didn't happen" when it did so there were 2 of the exact same person. my thoughs are when you get podded or die, you are dead. the person that comes back isnt you cept for looks and memories. kinda sad if you think about it. all those Oventoasted's dead floating in space or in some guys hanger (mine too). The secret to light speed revealed! --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends. Sig nerfz0r - maximum allowed siz0r is 24000 bytz0r. - Devil ([email protected]) Sig By Ortos
Saint Lazarus	Posted - 2007.03.12 04:27:00 - [9] Actually I remember reading the scientific article about this and as far as I know it isnt simple as memories but your entire consciousness that is transported to the clone. That the reason we are in pods is that as soon as the pod is breached a machine scans your brain (and in doing so effectively kills you, which is a problem for anyone who wants to be cloned outside of a pod) and after taking this "brain print" sends it off to the vats. I assume consciousness means more than just your memories, its effectively your mind, and deep down somewhere in your mind is what I guess you'd call your "soul" (where else would it be but the brain ) And to me someone who has the same memories and physical body as me ISNT me just a copy. :insert cool signature here:
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.12 05:39:00 - [10] There's a big long thread about this somewhere. - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
RedFall Irreligion	Posted - 2007.03.12 06:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Crumplecorn There's a big long thread about this somewhere. There's a response to your statement in a thread somewhere.
Araxmas Black Lance Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.03.12 10:06:00 - [12] As far as i'm concerned there is no soul or life force in your body but instead your brain is you. So if you make a complete and totally accurate copy of your brain you will still be in control. The only problem is that there is no proof and also what happens if you make two of them, one obviously isn't you...or is it. Computer explodes from the too many paradox's -------- Robbie Rotten left me
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.12 12:01:00 - [13] Edited by: Ealiom on 12/03/2007 12:09:14 Edited by: Ealiom on 12/03/2007 12:05:43 I thought alot about this myself while watching an episode of Star Trek. I came to the conclusion that however you look at it, once you are cloned / teleported whatever you are dead and the end result is merely a copy. Think of this everytime someone is beamed about in Star Trek they are being killed then recreated elsewhere. Now if you want to take this a wee step further imagine if Scotty (through with messing up your docking abaility in EVE) has also messed up teleporting a now hefty Mr James T Shatner up onto the Enterprise. We all now the computers on that enterprise werent that good 'Dell's most likely' So with Kirk's extra girth the poor wee comps had difficulty. I can imagine the following happening. [Kirk] Beam me up Scotty [weeeeee oooop] [Kirk] Scotty I told you to beam me up [Scotty] Aye sir that I have but ye see there been a wee mix up. [Kirk] What do you mean mix up Scotty [Scotty] Well you see the transport'in wiz compleetit I have ye up here sir dinnae you worry noo. So if you widdnae mind standing still. i'll get the enterprise tae chib ye. [Kirk] What, No Scotty wait wait im still here dont vaporize me [Scotty] nah sir yer standing next to me, its okay ye made it safe and sound. Ill be sending down the daddy of all chibbins now. [Kirk] Scotty I demand you beam me up right now [Kirk] Hi this is Kirk here I asure you, that you made it up okay. Now if you'd just stay still we can erase you [Kirk] OMGWTFBBQ [KraaaaccckvvvBOOOOM] However you think about the body or the mind being the essence of you. Once you get teleported / cloned it is no longer you. The pieces that built up the conscience that is you have been destroyed and a copy put in its place. To say that you live on because you view your memories etc as the actual you is wrong. Copying your memories onto a future super harddrive does not make the essence of you. It is only a collection of information. Likewise giving it the spark of life only creates a duplicate they may act they same as you but it most definetly isnt you. I can imagine a future were this becomes possible. I can also bet that i and many others wouldnt bother doing this. I bet there would alos be lots of moral decisions about it. For instance if someone is teleported they would be legally dead. There family would then recieve there benefit from the teleported persons will etc. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Oventoasted Caldari Arcana Imperii Ltd. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.12 15:04:00 - [14] kinda suxs because the u that wanted to go there will never go there. if you arnt killed and you are cloned, scanned, and sent away. the you that wanted to go will still be on earth and the copy of you will be on that planet. now i wonder what goes through the mind of the person that is copied? you wake up and bam! your some where else in the copies mind with all your thoughts you have teleported. one moment you were on earth the next some where else. the copy would know tho that the person that he was copied from was not here he was back on earth. its kinda like buying a plane ticket and having someone else go in your stead. this kinda teleportation would make me kinda sad and ****ed off. so, if do invent some kinda teleportation clone thing. ill take the space bus so I can see it myself.
Severe McCald Caldari Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.12 16:10:00 - [15] Read Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan. All beautifully covered in that book. If a copy of me, with my memories, isn't me, then I have died several times without really noticing. Your entire body is, supposedly replaced every 7 years (each individual living cell). So I am a poor copy of the person who had my name and some of my memories seven years ago. This does not cause me a philosophical difficulty. Likewise, if the "me" that thinks it exists can be copied and recreated and not notice the process; I'll do it. Sev I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.12 16:21:00 - [16] Edited by: Ealiom on 12/03/2007 16:20:51 Originally by: Severe McCald Your entire body is, supposedly replaced every 7 years (each individual living cell). Not true! So for the convenience of saving yourself some time, You'd willingly commit suicide!? Even if you have no qualms about killing yourself. What makes you so sure they wouldn't get something messed up along the way. The human race has a hard enough time trying to ensure trains arrive and depart on time nevewrmind 100% successfully cloning / teleporting individuals. It is true what they say though for everything invented no matter how strange there will always be one person eager to use it. p.s. Read Greg Egans 'Diaspora' thats a brain melter! Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Severe McCald Caldari Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.13 12:35:00 - [17] Well, it is not entirely true, but it is true enough for philosophical purposes. It is not about saving time (other than in the sense of having more of it) it is about immortality. Unless we can upload our "selves", our time will almost certainly be extremely limited. While I would not choose to do this to travel my daily commute, to get to the stars it would be worthwhile. What is suicide in this context? If you accept new ideas that lead to major changes in your world view and personality, did you die? What are you? Sev I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.13 15:14:00 - [18] Edited by: Ealiom on 13/03/2007 15:17:13 Originally by: Severe McCald What is suicide in this context? If you accept new ideas that lead to major changes in your world view and personality, did you die? What are you? Whatever the result of this experiment it would certainly not be me. The clone/copy who woke up on the other side would happily continue on in its life. Safe in the belief that it had just instantly moved from one time and place to another instantly. Truth is though you are sacrificing yourself for anothers benefit. Benefits you will never know. It is like the ultimate form of child bearing. To be able to leave this world with the knowledge that your DNA will continue on long after you have died. The only difference here is that you leave this world and leave behind not only your DNA but a record of your memories and experience as well. Just because your child has your DNA doesnt mean its you. Likewise just because your DNA and memories are copied doesnt make it you. It is a seperate entity with its own consciousness. You cant claim this other consciousness is doing you any favours because your dead. If the process took time. If you had to stand someplace while they engineered this new you. This is a process were they also had to ensure it was working correctly so they had to have you stand there incase they had to scrap it and make another one. So imagine this. 'Okay Mr McCald if you wouldnt mind standing here while this process is completed.' 'Whiirrr Wizz beep ding' 'Testing Mr McCald v.34' 'All tests prove successful' 'Okay Mr McCald you've been successfully cloned, we now longer need you' 'Mr Fitz please see to the disposal of this biomass' Now Im pretty sure at this point you are raging in despair as your clone waves at you. You know two things as fact. 1) Your smiling clone will meet the same fate as you as he makes Mr McCald .v35 and he too will feel your despair. 2) Your not going to get back up and magically continue living once Mr Fitz pulls the trigger. Im pretty certain the knowledge that your DNA and memories have been preserved is of no consequence to you as Mr Fitz puts one slug between your eyes. Also it matters not if the process is sped up. Why should it matter if the process is instantaneous or not the effect is the same. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Severe McCald Caldari Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.13 16:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Ealiom Whatever the result of this experiment it would certainly not be me. I accept that what you say about emotional responses is true. However, it does not answer the question about what you are. If an exact copy of me is made, at the moment it is made, both it and I are me. We begin to differ immediately, but which is the original me would be impossible to determine except by examination of the process by which the copy was made, so as to be able to put a label on the copy and say: "that is the copy" (at which point it has ceased to be identical). Either the original or copy would equally feel the rage and despair you refer to if they were to be disposed of. Would Severe McCald have ceased to exist in any meaningful way if one of the two identical copies continued to live? I go into a room. I come out of that or another room. How can it be said that I died? Your position assumes that "I" does carry a difference from the identical copy, even at the point of creation. What is that difference? Sev I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.13 17:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Severe McCald I accept that what you say about emotional responses is true. The emotional contect of human nature covers alot more than your brief acceptance of its existance implies. Originally by: Severe McCald However, it does not answer the question about what you are. You are completely unique. Totally and unreservedly so. Even at the instant of being copied that briefest of microseconds before each subjects neurons begin firing in different patterns, you are still unique. You occupy a body made identical to the original but you do not occupy the same space as the original. Neither do you occupy the same consciousness. You are totally unique and seperate from the original. Originally by: Severe McCald Would Severe McCald have ceased to exist in any meaningful way if one of the two identical copies continued to live? No you could continue to live your life. Putting aside pesky issues such as laws and family etc. But again this is an emotional response. Why on earth would you want a duplicate. Originally by: Severe McCald Your position assumes that "I" does carry a difference from the identical copy, even at the point of creation. What is that difference? At its most basic, because there are two of you that cannot be one. Just as i hold two identical CD's in either hand. The are superfically identical yet they are not the same thing one is in this hand one is in an other. If i destroy one its destiny is the bin while the other enjoys spinning about inside my PC. I do not believe in the soul or anything remotely like it. Another little thought to mull over. If it were possible to clone someone and have the brain fixed to follow the path of the original with 100% accuracy. Like a mirror this other you continues through an identical life. Is this person you. Most definetly not despite the fact that he is 100% exactly the same as you are at that instant hes not you. Because you are unique you occupy this space in this world and anything that attempts to fill it for you once you have gone is nothing but a copy and not you! Executioner Model Blackbird Model
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2007.03.13 17:28:00 - [21] Edited by: ReaperOfSly on 13/03/2007 17:25:22 The cells in a human body renew every 7 years. That means you do not have a single cell in your body that you did 7 years ago, and 7 years from now, you won't have a single cell left that you do now. You're still the same person though. I'm a strong believer that a person's DNA and his experiences are what make that person who he is. --------------------------------------------------------------------
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.13 18:43:00 - [22] Originally by: ReaperOfSly The cells in a human body renew every 7 years. False. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
ReaperOfSly Gallente Lyrus Associates	Posted - 2007.03.13 21:19:00 - [23] Originally by: Ealiom Originally by: ReaperOfSly The cells in a human body renew every 7 years. False. Proof or STFU --------------------------------------------------------------------
Ealiom Blackhole Entry Point	Posted - 2007.03.13 23:34:00 - [24] Originally by: ReaperOfSly Proof or STFU Every cell in the human body does regenerate except the brain Does Not regenerate, with the exception of the hippocampal formation. Also your 7 year cycle seems sketching at best. Each cell type has a different life cycle. If you want proof go educate yourself and search for it. I dont intend on educating the ignorant with attitude problems. Executioner Model Blackbird Model
Severe McCald Caldari Eve Defence Force Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.14 17:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Ealiom At its most basic, because there are two of you that cannot be one. Just as i hold two identical CD's in either hand. The are superfically identical yet they are not the same thing one is in this hand one is in an other. If i destroy one its destiny is the bin while the other enjoys spinning about inside my PC. OK, the CD is a good analogy. I am the song, my body (including brain) is the hardware. The two songs recorded on different CD's are the same song. They emanate from the same original recording. Assuming the two CD's are identical (no differences that affect the song), what you have on each CD is the same song. It is not unique. No body gives a stuff which of those CDs goes into the bin, the other is just as good for all purposes. What do you claim is unique about the song on each CD? Sev I saw a squirrel today jumping from one tree to another, the branch it landed on snapped. So the squirrel was on this falling branch, clambering like mad, thinking it was doing something about it.'
Muthsera S.A.S	Posted - 2007.03.14 18:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Ealiom Originally by: ReaperOfSly Proof or STFU Every cell in the human body does regenerate except the brain Does Not regenerate, with the exception of the hippocampal formation. Also your 7 year cycle seems sketching at best. Each cell type has a different life cycle. If you want proof go educate yourself and search for it. I dont intend on educating the ignorant with attitude problems. This cloning bit have everything to do with the fact that stemcells can become any cell you program/make em to be. It's the entire basis of our conception of what cloning would mean. As you could make the stemcells decide to grow anything. Brain cells is no different. In fact, there have been several studies preformed on rats that inject stemcells into the brain to regenerate lost neurons pathways. In fact. Most likely if you can manage to produce stemcells. You might be able to generate human organs without the need for donors. A great achivement if they do manage do it. Cloning I have great problems with myself. Because you wouldn't be you. The clone would just be a mirror of you. Even if you can get it be 100% accurate to the original. Thats when I see this jump clone bit. I get a bit frustrated. However. You might look at how CCP have imagined clones to function, and transform it into how humans will view clones 100-200 years from now. Where person doesn't die only the body does. Soul or no Soul. You'll still die even if they clone you. For the atheists of us. Thats rather scary tbh. Lets just all home the fanatical zealots around doesn't get to much power in the future eh? Rabble
Jade Michaels	Posted - 2007.03.14 20:25:00 - [27] Assuming that the heart of conciousness lies within the electrical activity inside the brain and not the organic material that holds it, cloning without the assosiated parodox could be possible (within science fiction and not fact as of yet... natch.). It would require an instantanious energy transfer (not replication) to ensure what's taken contains the same particles present in the clone as the clonee. As all matter (according to quantum physics) exists everywhere at the same time whilst only being accesable to us 3 dimensional creatures in one place at one time, it could be possible to redefine the point at which the matter in question exists in terms of our perception (moving it whithout changing it). This would make the cloning process feasible in terms of retaining ones identity, as you would have been forcibly moved instead of replicated. A lot of 'if's and 'but's, but hey... this is a science fiction game after all! :) ...Oh and Sev, if you're really that blase' about your life, can I have your kidneys? Should fetch a good price on Ebay :)

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