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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
136
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Posted - 2016.09.11 00:27:38 -
[31] - Quote
Pookoko wrote:Celesete, thanks for the explanation, but it's a bit silly to say I'm 'refusing to accept' some of the market mechanics. :p
I (or anyone else who asks some questions about market) may just be stupid or don't have some insight or missed some info or whatever, it doesn't mean that one should assume such a person who find something difficult to understand something is 'refusing to accept' something.
When onr asserts something and argues against facts and evidences and logic you could accuse him for refusing to accept. But when one asks about something with genuine curiosity and willingness to listen it's a bit unfair accusation IMHO.
Don't take it so personally. It wasn't directed at you. It was phrased the way it was for the benefit of everyone who discounts the sum total of player market interactions as a reason for price drops. The problem is people point the finger at CCP, when usually it's the players behaviour themselves that causes markets to plateau. Any "fix" CCP applies will result in the same market results in a few months. The best thing for them to do is leave it and let wh's become abandoned, so that it can become lucrative again to farm them. Alternatively if they do add more content, make it harder, but eventually we will be back here again anyways.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
136
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Posted - 2016.09.11 00:31:59 -
[32] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.
I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.
Economics doesn't work this way, the proportion of ships being used and blown up and produced remains relative to the player base. Over production causes price drops. Supply is exceeding demand. Add another 20k players and just as many of those will farm wh's in proportion to the relative numbers farming them now, the price won't budge much at all.
"but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less."
You assume all the people stopped playing were only consumers, not producers too, it's not the case. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1811
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Posted - 2016.09.11 01:40:30 -
[33] - Quote
Add another 20k and there will be more rattlesnakes, the mechanics need to change.
Also stop with the economic debate, it's not relevant since blue loot has always been the bulk of the isk, especially in higher class space. |
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
161
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Posted - 2016.09.11 02:33:16 -
[34] - Quote
Celeste, ok I get you now. As a general advice for those looking at market stuff what you say is correct and I do agree that people need to open up and see the broader picture. I guess I just took it wrong the first time. :) |
Piugattuk
Lima beans Corp
456
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Posted - 2016.09.11 03:09:15 -
[35] - Quote
Celeste Coeval wrote:Piugattuk wrote:I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.
I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.
Economics doesn't work this way, the proportion of ships being used and blown up and produced remains relative to the player base. Over production causes price drops. Supply is exceeding demand. Add another 20k players and just as many of those will farm wh's in proportion to the relative numbers farming them now, the price won't budge much at all. "but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less." You assume all the people stopped playing were only consumers, not producers too, it's not the case.
I agree mostly, but for a healthy economy there needs to be a demand, strangely when I left eve years ago a DRAKE cost about 25 mil, fast forward few years and the same DRAKE is double the price....yet half the population.
when I was playing years ago ~45 to 50 thousand active logged people now is like 15 thousand on weekdays and 27+ thousand on weekends yet a DRAKE is ~55 mil, smaller population should mean less demand for DRAKES yet price have gone up?
And yet minerals are still about the same as they were when I left?
Believe me...I'm wondering how that worked. |
Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
137
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Posted - 2016.09.11 03:21:44 -
[36] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Celeste Coeval wrote:Piugattuk wrote:I don't have any input on WH mechanics or payouts but coming from a prospective of a high sec player who has recently come back is that there is a much smaller community of people in eve, it varies but most of the time it ranges from 12 to 17 thousand logged on, on weekends it goes up to 27,000+ but never like it was before I left.
I would say that lack of players (especially high sec), has taken its toll on prices for T-3 stuff, you can have all the content in the world but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less.
Economics doesn't work this way, the proportion of ships being used and blown up and produced remains relative to the player base. Over production causes price drops. Supply is exceeding demand. Add another 20k players and just as many of those will farm wh's in proportion to the relative numbers farming them now, the price won't budge much at all. "but if there is no one to buy then the stuff becomes worth a whole lot less." You assume all the people stopped playing were only consumers, not producers too, it's not the case. I agree mostly, but for a healthy economy there needs to be a demand, strangely when I left eve years ago a DRAKE cost about 25 mil, fast forward few years and the same DRAKE is double the price....yet half the population. when I was playing years ago ~45 to 50 thousand active logged people now is like 15 thousand on weekdays and 27+ thousand on weekends yet a DRAKE is ~55 mil, smaller population should mean less demand for DRAKES yet price have gone up? And yet minerals are still about the same as they were when I left? Believe me...I'm wondering how that worked.
CCP changes minerals required to build stuff every so often. Mineral prices might be higher because of CODE? PLEX prices? I could pick anything in the game since 2006 and say XYZ used to cost (insert number here) and there would be numerous reasons why. So a drake costs twice as much? Tengus cost peanuts and Bhaalgorns are over a 1/3rd of the price I remember when I started. It's a fluid economy with so many variables it's difficult to keep track. Also Jita speculation plays its role.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
137
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Posted - 2016.09.11 03:23:13 -
[37] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Add another 20k and there will be more rattlesnakes, the mechanics need to change.
Also stop with the economic debate, it's not relevant since blue loot has always been the bulk of the isk, especially in higher class space.
Blue loot isn't independant of the economic picture, you trade it in for isk, isk is spent on other things, the other things are part of the rest of the economy.....you started the economic debate, you just don't seem to realise it lol. |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1815
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Posted - 2016.09.11 05:14:31 -
[38] - Quote
Celeste Coeval wrote:Tsukino Stareine wrote:Add another 20k and there will be more rattlesnakes, the mechanics need to change.
Also stop with the economic debate, it's not relevant since blue loot has always been the bulk of the isk, especially in higher class space. Blue loot isn't independant of the economic picture, you trade it in for isk, isk is spent on other things, the other things are part of the rest of the economy.....you started the economic debate, you just don't seem to realise it lol.
Except I already stated what blue loot does to the economy: nothing except inflation since you're not interacting with another player when selling it.
Just looked through all the monthly economy reports as well, the commodity market is the lowest, at 10 trillion ISK, it's been since the reports have been started this February.
The commodity market is mainly blue loot as overseers effects are pretty minor and things like ESS tokens and clone soldier tags are even less abundant.
So from 18 trillion ISK in February dropping to 10 that's a MASSIVE red flag on the state of wormhole affairs |
March rabbit
Mosquito Squadron The-Culture
1887
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Posted - 2016.09.11 06:42:39 -
[39] - Quote
With all these talks about ISK/hour and 'non-profitable' WHs i want to ask wormholers: what do you need all these ISK for? Looking at occasional killmails from WH it's often pretty expensive ships like T3s, etc... And with pimped modules. Do you really must use it there?
Outside of some elitist low-sec alliances it looks like the whole Eve is happy with cheaper doctrines. Some even use t1-fitted cheap-as-chips ships Yes, Yes, blobs you say. But these blobs do against other blobs. But recently WHers start to talk about fleets of 30-50 pilots already. So yeah, you are not too far from 'blobs' already.
Couldn't it be that thing which holds you down? Need to use (and lose) expensive stuff?
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
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Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
141
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Posted - 2016.09.11 06:46:22 -
[40] - Quote
While WH is a special place, I suppose the same economy aplies at the end of the day. If bounty claim from a particular space dropped by half, it sounfs reasonable to ask whether that space is in 'healthy' state.
But turning blue loot value to other resources in WH, that could be an issue too, just as buffing mining yield will affect the mineral prices eventually, negating the buff.
Ultimately demand needs to be increased correspondingly to make the eve economy healthy. But trade volumes have gone down significantly across all sorts of things, and I see overall less demand for stuff, whether it's something from WH or from elsewhere.
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697
Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1824
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Posted - 2016.09.11 08:20:13 -
[41] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:With all these talks about ISK/hour and 'non-profitable' WHs i want to ask wormholers: what do you need all these ISK for? Looking at occasional killmails from WH it's often pretty expensive ships like T3s, etc... And with pimped modules. Do you really must use it there? Outside of some elitist low-sec alliances it looks like the whole Eve is happy with cheaper doctrines. Some even use t1-fitted cheap-as-chips ships Yes, Yes, blobs you say. But these blobs do against other blobs. But recently WHers start to talk about fleets of 30-50 pilots already. So yeah, you are not too far from 'blobs' already. Couldn't it be that thing which holds you down? Need to use (and lose) expensive stuff?
Numbers limitation, you can only take x amount of ships depending on wormhole size which means every ship must punch well above its proverbial and literal weight.
Many people find these expensive ships by, ironically, incursion alts.
Fleets of 30-50 are extremely rare unless it's a system invasion or something like a fortizar bash. Most brawls tend to range from 15 to 30 people
@Toobo you're right that trade has gone down but the commodity (blue loot) orders have disproportionately dried up at a faster rate than the other sectors |
Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
141
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Posted - 2016.09.11 10:45:12 -
[42] - Quote
Yes Tsukino I see your point about blue loot transactions going down 'disproportionally' and it is something CCP should look into.
But I'm more interested with some other points you made - like more stuff to suck up WH supplies, as that would help increase the demand and make some of the material prices go up.
To some extent WH pay outs can be tweaked again with blue loot, so we have maybe less than before the changes but more than now. But ultimately I think it would be the best to balance it with some controlled introduction of new stuff that demands WH resources.
Even not considering economy, we have been on long wait for T3 balance patch together with possibility of some more new subs. Beside the HP nerf T3s are pretty much as they always have been since they first came out while many other ships went through radical changes.
So both from economical point of view and game play point of view, I hope CCP looks into WH end products, not just blue loot pay outs.
Edit: just for record, by balance I don't mean nerf. I'm not 'nerf T3!!!' crowd. At the same time I'm not talking about direct buff to stats. I'm thinking more new subs and tweaks of existing subs.
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697
Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1830
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Posted - 2016.09.11 16:39:10 -
[43] - Quote
I hope the possible t2 boost charges hinted by Fozzie will be made from stuff dropped in wormholes |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University Minmatar Republic
56452
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Posted - 2016.09.12 04:39:23 -
[44] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:Nalia White wrote:Doc Fury wrote:W-holes and a lot of other space are empty simply because EVE's PCU is back to 2006 player levels.
i blame the new generations with their ****** mobile games... no interest anymore to invest time and effort in a hobby... sad times :( Doc blames CCP and their inability to deliver on their hype, and years of pants-on-head decisions by their "management". Soooo many missed opportunities. It's come to the point that they are having to literally beg players to remain subscribed via free swag until their F2P experiment kicks in, so the PCU does not drop to 2003 levels. Much to my surprise I have to admit I agree with Doc.
For the past couple of years CCP has constantly implemented bad game decisions which is the main reason for the low player count. I blame the Dev's and those in charge for the mass exodus of players. I'll bet they don't even play this game. If they did, a lot of the recent changes wouldn't have been implemented. Hell, they rarely even use their own 'Official Forums' anymore.
DMC
'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
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Toobo
Project Fruit House Solyaris Chtonium
142
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Posted - 2016.09.12 05:16:18 -
[45] - Quote
CCP as a company is doing reasonably well from what I gather. They have (still somewhat) an excellent and unique game but need to adap to this new era while keeping its core players happy. That's understandably difficult task because what the vets want and what eve virgins want could be very different.
At the moment it feels a bit sitting on the fence, pissing off old vets while not suceeding in attracting lots of new players, so it's pretty much the worst case scenario. :p
EVE has always been a niche game. But it's lost some of its niche appeal while not quite becoming mainstream.
I'm looking forward to next year or so though when CCP adapts new commercial model.
My personal recommendation is on improving PVE side though. It's actually against my vision of EVE as a PVP centric game but I think it will be PVE revamp that will attract players. Although EVE is supposed to be a sandbox game where you make your own content, mainstream gamers do love contents presented to them on a plate.
Toobo is a lucky talisman. Try Toobo's lucky referral link at the awesome iwantisk website and have a great time
http://www.iwantisk.com/?ref=1216023697
Remeber - you win by luck and lose by luck. Don't go crazy. ;)
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Beta Maoye
138
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Posted - 2016.09.12 06:18:04 -
[46] - Quote
The game tends to create difficult PVE contents that players would not go through easily. I think the logic is that if players go through contents easily, players will whine for more contents. As the game company is relatively small, they want to create contents that is hard enough so that players will not eat through faster than that can be created. Sometimes they make it so hard that no one want to do it, e.g. drifter incursion, drifter wormholes. Drifters become a waste of time and money for development.
One single very difficult level is too rigid for gaming. One ring can not rule them all. Sauron has to create nine rings for greedy humans. New contents could be designed with scalable difficulties to cater the interest of different groups of players. Difficulty could be ranged from novice levels to expert levels. The most difficult level will be put at the end of the carrot stick with great rewards.
One way that blizzard extends the life of D3 is introducing set items that grant additional bonuses when equipped at the same time. Many items in EVE can form sets such as weapon and weapon upgrade, shield resistance and shield extender, scan equipment and analyzer. They will be relatively rare and have little impact on game balance. By the way, the game is not balanced anyway because of T3 dessie and possibly more powerful ships upcoming. A new meta layer of faction, officer and deadspace modules could be added to the game as well.
These additions should bring more life to the game with relatively small demand in development resources. |
Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
755
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Posted - 2016.09.12 06:48:52 -
[47] - Quote
Aren't there six classes of scalable difficulty already? |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1844
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Posted - 2016.09.12 06:51:37 -
[48] - Quote
Indeed there is, and the class I live in c6 is supposedly the hardest with terrible rewards to match the effort needed
Art of Explosions
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
755
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Posted - 2016.09.12 06:53:38 -
[49] - Quote
I'll try to add something (hopefully) constructive and tell you about this wormhole we live in.
It's empty.
Like, no signatures, barely any anoms. No visitors either (surprise, surprise) because -you guessed it- it's empty. I do not know how new sigs are created but at one sig every two hour I could live alone in there and still run out of content. We obviously visit other holes but those too are mostly devoid of life.
Is everything happening in the upper class holes, or what's the deal here? Wormbros, fill me in pls! |
Beta Maoye
139
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Posted - 2016.09.12 07:12:46 -
[50] - Quote
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:Aren't there six classes of scalable difficulty already? I mean what is the point of making new contents that even the most hardcore players don't want it. Not to mention the average players. |
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Brokk Witgenstein
Extreme Agony
755
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Posted - 2016.09.12 07:31:40 -
[51] - Quote
Not sure if it's a matter of "don't want it" but before citadels there were POSses which incurred severe trust issues between members and sometimes even leadership (some fags just couldn't be bother to refuel the POS or grant anyone else rights to do so ;-)
We also find ruins of what I imagine were once great corps, but they've been forcefully evicted for the heck of it and nobody settled down in their place. Like scorched earth. |
TackyTachy1
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
108
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Posted - 2016.09.18 06:41:06 -
[52] - Quote
Don't know that much about the WH mechanics but I like scanning down, entering in (remember the BMs!), finding that high grade ore, mine a bit of it then bail before Cinderella passes out. Ain't got a clue about whether I made a profit, but if I get out alive I figure we're good to go. Am I, I wonder, part of the problem? Or is there even a problem?
Forum Rep for a bunch of characters, couple corps
and one seriously Lost In Space multiboxer.
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
3345
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Posted - 2016.09.18 08:12:24 -
[53] - Quote
Doc Fury wrote:W-holes and a lot of other space are empty simply because EVE's PCU is back to 2006 player levels.
This.
The game is sick. I've been laughing my as* off at "EvE is dying" threads for over a decade. I'll tell you this though: It really is now. Alpha clones are the only thing I can think of that will save us. Sure, I'll be here when the servers finally shut down. I'm plexed out for a decade. A LOT of you are like that too. But the main problem in EvE right now is that we don't have enough players.
There is a wax and wane to EvE. Some part of the ecosystem is always fracked up, and other parts thrive. As a guy who's been playing for a while, I actually think that's pretty damn sweet. I like to go to the wastelands and find new ways to play. For the first 5 years I played I never empire ganked a soul, if you can believe it. There is a lot of interesting gameplay, and just because your niche is drying up, doesn't mean it won't have another time in the sun when the game shifts yet again. That's what keeps eve alive. I'm actually planning to abandon my highsec d-baggery for a while and go on a long journey through WH space just to see how it's changed since I started playing again (I've been on hiatus). There is always something neat to do in EvE, and the fact that it's constantly changing is part of the draw for me. The takeaway is, don't count on EvE to adjust to your niche or playstyle. Adapt to the changing landscape, instead. It's more fun and rewarding. WH's are awesome, and hard to live in. CCP will give them some love again before too long... and while adding more WH systems is insane, I say enjoy the wasteland while you have it. If the Alpha clone thing works out, you might be posting a "WHs are overpopulated and T3 prices are crashing" thread a year or two from now.
Every ship, item, and system in EvE gets it's time in the sun. It's the circle of life. :p |
Tsukino Stareine
Art Of Explosions 404 Hole Not Found
1912
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Posted - 2016.09.18 10:14:04 -
[54] - Quote
TackyTachy1 wrote:Don't know that much about the WH mechanics but I like scanning down, entering in (remember the BMs!), finding that high grade ore, mine a bit of it then bail before Cinderella passes out. Ain't got a clue about whether I made a profit, but if I get out alive I figure we're good to go. Am I, I wonder, part of the problem? Or is there even a problem?
no you are very much part of the solution, main issue with wormholes atm is just lack of people in them and by source the lack of incentive to actually go inside them
Art of Explosions
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