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Replacement Cost Insurance

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Traska Gannel	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:33:00 - [1] Hi all, This suggestion has probably been made before but I haven't seen it so here goes. Assuming that CCP would like to see "Care Bears(tm)" exploring/missioning/traveling in low security space more often then I think they might consider introducing some form of replacement cost insurance. Why? In my opinion, one reason for avoiding low security is the cost of losing everything that has been built up while playing. I am speaking from my own perspective where I do not make hundreds of millions a week - where I make most of my ISK from casually playing level 4 missions - I have about 100 mill in the bank, a raven, a number of other ships, and some decent T1 and T2 modules in 8 months of casual playing - no faction or DED space equipment. If I went for a jaunt into low security - current assets and ship insurance on the raven would not cover replacement. I would be faced with a substantial time running more missions (or perhaps mining) to obtain sufficient funds to rebuild. Here are some more parameters - I mostly play solo because of limited time to play and the inability to schedule regular opportunities to play. I have not found any good tools for forming gangs - no looking for group tools (though maybe I just missed them) - and the base PVP nature of the game makes it unsafe to trust random individuals in a "pick up group" in any case - at least in low sec. Even if I was in a player corp - forming gangs depends on how many other corp members are on and whether they are anywhere near my current location. Given all of that - to me - there is no obvious reward that makes low security space worth the risk of loss. Alliances, wars, PVP would all be fun - but it isn't how most people I have met make ISK - which are ratting, mining and missioning. Replacement cost insurance - with a decent premium cost of course - would go a long way to mitigating the initial risk of venturing into low security space. Replacement cost values could be calculated based on the lowest price for ship and modules on the market in a given region. Perhaps only items that are sold through the market would be insurable. On the other hand, maybe only base T1 and T2 ships and modules would be insurable. Perhaps there could be POD insurance to cover the cost of implants. Anyway, in my opinion, one of the reasons folks do not go to low security is the risk of being ganked at a gate camp and losing everything they have spent months acquiring - that sort of game is NOT fun for some of those who play mostly in empire space - and a carrot that could induce more folks to explore outside empire space would be a reduction of the loss risk associated with that sort of game play. If low security and 0.0 are really as much fun and profitable as people seem to indicate then these folks might actually stay there - but the initial possible costs, real or imagined, might be acting as a deterrent to such explorations. Availability of proper insurance might actually help with this :) Cheers, Traska
Joebarchuck	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:36:00 - [2] I agree, if they want players to go into low sec, they need to introduce a cheap (15% of ship value) insurance which would cover the actual cost of replacing the ship.
Egil Kolsto Caldari Collwood Collective	Posted - 2007.03.19 15:41:00 - [3] So Traska. With the current price structure. Where you pay 30% for a 100% payout on BASE ship only. What would you be willing to pay for a 100% module payout? And what about the items not blown up? To make the replacement insurance actually work, it would have to make sure your ship was completely destroyed with all parts when blown up which would further infuriate the pirates. But my question is still the same, what would be a fair insurance premium?
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:04:00 - [4] The game would just turn into counterstrike where u just press button and respawn.. CCP lowered low sec risk by warping to 0km and insta jumping. Maybe insure just t1 ships and t1 modules. Maybe even they are insured if bought off the NPC corporations and when they are destroyed, u get 75% of value back. But it still eliminates alot of risk of flying ship into low sec or 0.0..
Traska Gannel	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:05:00 - [5] I don't know :) Perhaps make modules individually insurable? Then a person could select which modules to insure. I would still pay the 30% rate for the insurance on most modules - though a reduction in the premium level to 15% would be nice - and would certainly make it more tempting to enter low security systems. As for items that were not destroyed - paying insurance for those would open a giant money making loop hole. Either insurance could not be paid on those - or insured items would have to be destroyed with the ship ... maybe the insurer would require self destruct devices on any insured equipment - in order to prevent it from falling into the hands of pirates :) ... From a role play perspective, I think it would be unlikely for a pod pilot to be able to return and recover any gear from his destroyed ship - whoever was strong enough to blow him up will have taken the gear anyway - so I would be very tempted to make sure no usable equipment would fall into enemy hands by having some sort of self-destruct mechanism in the case of ship destruction. (From an actual game perspective - I've actually never recovered gear from a mission in which my ship was destroyed - any attempts usually resulted in the NPC's chasing me away and almost losing another ship). The basic premise of my suggestion is that even huge potential rewards will not tempt the risk averse player into low security - only a reduction of risk itself can do that - and perhaps an adjustment to the insurance system can reduce the initial risk without unbalancing other aspects of the game.
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:08:00 - [6] u are too young.. get some skills, get into some Corporation for now.. Its not like u are loosing deimos everyday in low sec.. maybe join a 0.0 corporation, u can rat for 2 days and have pew pew action for 5 days only from loot and bounties gained..
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:14:00 - [7] Trask, the advantage of joing a corp is your risk exposure is reduced. Chat channels will be available to find out status of lo sec gates. Corp members who will scout for you. Buddies who will help with missions and mining ops. Info on how to cheaply get involved in pvp action so you can learn the ropes. Eve mail me in game if you want to talk more
Hiro Kazamatsuri	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:14:00 - [8] You can enjoy low sec or .0 as a casual player. Just dont bring all your valuable stuff at the begining. Start small, remove the dust of some old frig or cruiser and run some lvl1 or lvl2 mission in low sec. Granted, it's not "isk efficent" but it's fun ! learn to know your environnement, the possible local threats, your neightbours, loose perhaps some frigs or cruisers. Seriously try to enjoy EvE as it is designed you wont regret it ! and the possible death penality is that make the game intense ;) have fun and dont forget it's just some pixels ;)
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:31:00 - [9] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/03/2007 16:31:02 Edited by: Lord WarATron on 19/03/2007 16:29:46 Insure modules? Why not Why dont I sell Micro Smartbomb II for a billion each, in a obscure region, and then get my alt to buy it to fix the regional values and insure the modules. Now fit 8 of them to a t1 destroyer and self destruct to get free isk! And there is no point insurance the base value of modules anyway since they are almost nothing. The prices we pay on the market are only such because some player put the item at that price. But seriously, insurance values can never be tied to what you pay on the market otherwise people would make free isk. -- In Internet Explorer, You keep tabs on your browser. In Soviet Russia, browser keeps tabs on you
Drykor Minmatar Stormriders Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.03.19 16:38:00 - [10] I don't see a reason why.. this looks too much like respawning. What's the point of being at risk this way? I think the insurance payout is already quite good, a real insurance company would have been bankrupt in 2003 already because most ships blow up eventually. And all in all, low sec isn't half as scary as people think.

Auron Shadowbane	Posted - 2007.03.19 17:55:00 - [11] no. if you want to go to lowsec and cant afford to refit your raven fly a frig or cruiser. CCP doesnt want teethless carebears to go to lowsec and net in tons of rewards while beeing protected from loss by insurance companies. they want the carebears to grow teeth and claws and turn into dread-bears and gank some pirates cause they want that hughe rewards. by all means I'd like to see insurance payout beeing modified by *sec.status.systhem to make lowsec and nullsec more dangerous. like a car insurance would replace your car if it'd get hit by a anti-tank round on a battlefield...
Rod Blaine Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.19 18:16:00 - [12] If there's no loss, then why have pvp ? Serisouly, what makes you think CCP is actually interested in having people in 0.0 and low sec that don't lose anything ? The whole idea is to promote interaction and player grouping. The most important driving force behind grouping and learning in Eve is minimalisation of the impact losses have. [center] Old blog
Traska Gannel	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:06:00 - [13] Thanks all - so far I really like the feedback. Some comments: 1) I agree that I need to try out low security/0.0 and the suggestion of taking out a frigate or cruiser is a good one - even if it isn't revenue efficient. 2) I agree that I need to try out life in a corporation - when real life gives me the time to do so (if it ever does) - I will join a corp and see how it goes - or find a corp that accepts casual players if such exists. 3) The suggestion about manipulating the market to artificially inflate the value of certain modules is also good. However, a good market analysis program can easily remove outlier data trying to shift the average. Alternatively, the insurance payout for ship+modules could be capped at 150% or 200% of the base insurance amount. There are lots of ways to deal with this issue. 3) The following comments make no sense to me: > The game would just turn into counterstrike where u just press button and respawn.. > I don't see a reason why.. this looks too much like respawning. > If there's no loss, then why have pvp ? As the game currently works - when your ship is destroyed you are in your pod and have to return to a station to re-equip. If you are podded, you wind up at your home station in a new clone - at which point you are free to jump into a ship and fly back to the battle. In no way does getting some additional ISK for your modules as a result of insurance (since the base ship can already insured in the current game) change things into "respawning" - at least in my opinion. As far as loss and PVP - all the insurance does is cap your loss at 30% of the ship value - if you have it insured - which is the amount you paid for your insurance policy. All I am suggesting is that some additional insurance coverage for the modules would cap the monetary risk of venturing into low security at 30% of your ship+modules to some specified limit of total payout - instead of 30% of the ship and 100% of the modules as the loss and risk currently stands. Cheers, Traska P.S. Basically - my opinion is that some folks do not venture into low security because they are inherently risk averse. Increased rewards in low sec may NOT generally tempt these folks out of their cocoons :) ... so my suggestion is that perhaps it would be worthwhile to see if the risk side of the equation can be tweaked so that it doesn't FEEL like as big a loss when losing a ship - and perhaps insurance is a way to do that.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:17:00 - [14] People don't like risk! Reduce risk! People like WoW! Make Eve into WoW in space! The OP suggested this path! STFU OP! - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Miss KillSome	Posted - 2007.03.19 19:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Traska Gannel 3) The following comments make no sense to me: > The game would just turn into counterstrike where u just press button and respawn.. > I don't see a reason why.. this looks too much like respawning. > If there's no loss, then why have pvp ? As the game currently works - when your ship is destroyed you are in your pod and have to return to a station to re-equip. If you are podded, you wind up at your home station in a new clone - at which point you are free to jump into a ship and fly back to the battle. In no way does getting some additional ISK for your modules as a result of insurance (since the base ship can already insured in the current game) change things into "respawning" - at least in my opinion. As far as loss and PVP - all the insurance does is cap your loss at 30% of the ship value - if you have it insured - which is the amount you paid for your insurance policy. All I am suggesting is that some additional insurance coverage for the modules would cap the monetary risk of venturing into low security at 30% of your ship+modules to some specified limit of total payout - instead of 30% of the ship and 100% of the modules as the loss and risk currently stands. Cheers, Traska P.S. Basically - my opinion is that some folks do not venture into low security because they are inherently risk averse. Increased rewards in low sec may NOT generally tempt these folks out of their cocoons :) ... so my suggestion is that perhaps it would be worthwhile to see if the risk side of the equation can be tweaked so that it doesn't FEEL like as big a loss when losing a ship - and perhaps insurance is a way to do that. what will happen if everything u lost would spawn back at the station? What will happen to economy if u were able to buy everything back in single second? How would alliances fight for their territory, if attackers would return in same expensive ships all the time, day after day? Yes, it is risk, but let me give u example: I've fitted my cormorant today and went deep into 0.0. I've met 40ppl alltogether through 12jumps.. Really, before u open this kind of topics, try for yourself..
jbob2000 Gallente KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:02:00 - [16] This would kill the economy, and the game. ________________________________ KIA Recruitment
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:11:00 - [17] Seriously, can we just stop with the pussification of EVE? Please? We're a hop skip and a jump away from doing ghostly corpse runs to our wrecks so we can resurrect an intact ship. Insurance values were tweaked a long time ago to accomodate losses (where do you think default zero-cost 50% insurance came from?) for players who didn't want to pay isk to insure their ships. I realize to new players, ship loss is a major thing. It's supposed to be, you either learn from the experience and grow stronger or you retreat back to high-sec with your tail between your legs. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.19 20:13:00 - [18] Originally by: Winterblink Seriously, can we just stop with the pussification of EVE? QFT - If you go into your options menu, there's a difficulty slider. Put that all the way over to the easiest setting and you'll be fine.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.20 09:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Traska Gannel Thanks all - so far I really like the feedback. Some comments: 1) I agree that I need to try out low security/0.0 and the suggestion of taking out a frigate or cruiser is a good one - even if it isn't revenue efficient. 2) I agree that I need to try out life in a corporation - when real life gives me the time to do so (if it ever does) - I will join a corp and see how it goes - or find a corp that accepts casual players if such exists. 3) The suggestion about manipulating the market to artificially inflate the value of certain modules is also good. However, a good market analysis program can easily remove outlier data trying to shift the average. Alternatively, the insurance payout for ship+modules could be capped at 150% or 200% of the base insurance amount. There are lots of ways to deal with this issue. 3) The following comments make no sense to me: > The game would just turn into counterstrike where u just press button and respawn.. > I don't see a reason why.. this looks too much like respawning. > If there's no loss, then why have pvp ? As the game currently works - when your ship is destroyed you are in your pod and have to return to a station to re-equip. If you are podded, you wind up at your home station in a new clone - at which point you are free to jump into a ship and fly back to the battle. In no way does getting some additional ISK for your modules as a result of insurance (since the base ship can already insured in the current game) change things into "respawning" - at least in my opinion. As far as loss and PVP - all the insurance does is cap your loss at 30% of the ship value - if you have it insured - which is the amount you paid for your insurance policy. All I am suggesting is that some additional insurance coverage for the modules would cap the monetary risk of venturing into low security at 30% of your ship+modules to some specified limit of total payout - instead of 30% of the ship and 100% of the modules as the loss and risk currently stands. Cheers, Traska P.S. Basically - my opinion is that some folks do not venture into low security because they are inherently risk averse. Increased rewards in low sec may NOT generally tempt these folks out of their cocoons :) ... so my suggestion is that perhaps it would be worthwhile to see if the risk side of the equation can be tweaked so that it doesn't FEEL like as big a loss when losing a ship - and perhaps insurance is a way to do that. To cut a long story short, what you are saying is that people are afraid to take their ships into lowsec/0.0 because they cannot recover if they lose their stuff. However, that is part of the point. PvP in eve would be killed if people could safely fly Cormack fitted Battleships with virtually no loss. It would mean that everybody would ultimatly have the same equipment on their ships, and isk means nothing. An aliance full of officer fitted battleships would never die - since there is no risk penelty if they lose their ships. On a higher level, inflicting major losses on your enemy is a good way to kill them off. The fact you can virtually bankrupt them out of PvPing in quality fitouts makes a major difference in winning and loosing wars. For example, I could spend every isk I have and take fully officer fitted ships to fleet battles. Such equipment will mean I will be in the top fighter in the field. However, if it blows, should I be reimbursed enough isk to buy more fully officer fitted battleships? Or should I feel the pain for the gain that I get over the rest of the people fighting in non-officer gear? So while I understand that there are people adverse to risk - eve is all about risk and it is the reason why people play the game. -- In Internet Explorer, You keep tabs on your browser. In Soviet Russia, browser keeps tabs on you
Joe Papa	Posted - 2007.03.20 09:26:00 - [20] sorry to add one more flame to the pile, but I have to. I quit playing World of Warcraft because pvp was so . . . mundane. ::shakes hands:: woooo! I died, well crap where's my body . . . doot do doo, there it is, I guess i'm going to get ganked for the next 5 minutes while I try to leave. EVE: 'hey, Aaron, I just lost my 60mil battleship' Aaron (he plays wow): 'I hope your guild fired you' This harshness of pvp is not something they should take away. Sure it'd be nice to have at cost replacement insurance, but the real root of the problem is the insane cost of certain items because of artificial shortages. Thank god high end mineral prices are crashing because of market flood (sorry, i'm a miner, and it hurts me too, but now stuff will be cheaper), and invention will alleviate some of the ridiculousness of the T2 BPO lottery madness. But pvp should still be painful ZOMG run from the room crying. . . if you cry. The root problem is the shortage of things driving up prices (like hulks breaking the 500mil mark). CCP set the insurance at what they thought market price should be, and then players decided the items were worth more. 2mil insurance (max) on an assault ship that costs 6mil if you have connections is annoying, i'll grant you that. One more thing. Low Security isn't that scary, you just have to know who lives where when and whom to avoid. 0 space is much the same way, except that people can put bubbles on gates, those suck. I was a casual player when I first ventured into low sec, and the pirates turned out to be some pretty nice guys.

Jastra Gallente Gallente Venture Inc	Posted - 2007.03.20 10:23:00 - [21] Originally by: Hiro Kazamatsuri You can enjoy low sec or .0 as a casual player. Just dont bring all your valuable stuff at the begining. Start small, remove the dust of some old frig or cruiser and run some lvl1 or lvl2 mission in low sec. Granted, it's not "isk efficent" but it's fun ! learn to know your environnement, the possible local threats, your neightbours, loose perhaps some frigs or cruisers. Seriously try to enjoy EvE as it is designed you wont regret it ! and the possible death penality is that make the game intense ;) have fun and dont forget it's just some pixels ;) Yeah, I'm with this guy, most fun and probably most profit recently was had with a very very cheaply fitted Thorax (most of the fittings were in my mission loot can I think) ratting in low-sec, I knew I had zero to loose, the ship was insured, I was careful, and I didn't lose the ship even though I spent hours ratting, made a lot of ISK in comparison to running low-sec lvl3 missions and had far more fun as I knew I could get jumped but didn't really care, unlike missioning in my carefully conceived myrmi where I am now quite nervous about getting jumped by someone scanning


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