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![Hexxx Hexxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/833529338/portrait?size=64)
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.23 14:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Hexxx on 23/03/2007 14:22:27
Ok....I was thinking of this yesterday.
Everyone is familiar with PvP classes, sessions that are taught by experienced PvPer's where you pay a fee and have a 1 or 2 hour workshop.
Is anyone interested or think it wise to perhaps conduct a workshop on the fundamentals of trading, etc? This is just an idea I've been kicking around, wondering what the level of interest is.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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![Block Ukx Block Ukx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/661355433/portrait?size=64)
Block Ukx
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Posted - 2007.03.23 15:21:00 -
[2]
This seems a very interesting idea. But I hope is taught objectively presenting various trading strategies and markets, pros and cons, etc., rather than this is how I do it and is the only way to do it.
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![Sun Win Sun Win](https://images.evetech.net/characters/109314332/portrait?size=64)
Sun Win
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2007.03.23 15:22:00 -
[3]
I would be interested.
New to Eve? Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here |
![Ezoran DuBlaidd Ezoran DuBlaidd](https://images.evetech.net/characters/242116197/portrait?size=64)
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.03.23 15:24:00 -
[4]
would it be live?
would it be reading materials only?
would there be reading materials to go with a live session?
would it be on an ingame channel?
vent? ts? the new eve voice?
will there be a charge?
approximately how long would it be?
would it be a one time thing?
will there be guest speakers?
will there be a transcript posted, or at least one which hits the major details?
but, yes, i'm interested. ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif) |
![Trade Grim Trade Grim](https://images.evetech.net/characters/268362024/portrait?size=64)
Trade Grim
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Posted - 2007.03.23 15:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Hexxx
Is anyone interested or think it wise to perhaps conduct a workshop on the fundamentals of trading, etc? This is just an idea I've been kicking around, wondering what the level of interest is.
YES! I think this would be a great experience and would readily enroll myself.
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![Kazzac Elentria Kazzac Elentria](https://images.evetech.net/characters/645149535/portrait?size=64)
Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2007.03.23 16:11:00 -
[6]
Possibly... |
![Dr Slurm Dr Slurm](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1982337233/portrait?size=64)
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.03.23 16:15:00 -
[7]
I would interested in participating or at least attending.
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![Hexxx Hexxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/833529338/portrait?size=64)
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.23 16:41:00 -
[8]
Well, it sounds like people are interested. Now comes the hard part....
In your mind, what would you like to have taught at such a "trader workshop"? What topics? Any specifics? Should it be over Vent? Do you want any materials? Multiple "speakers" beside myself? Do you want a conference? A workshop? How many people should it be limited to?
I'll be brainstorming for a bit, expect a proposal sometime at the end of next week. If everyone thinks the format is good and helpful, I'll go ahead and kick this thing into gear and we'll see how it works. =) Meantime, suggestions, comments, and criticism welcome!
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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![Hexxx Hexxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/833529338/portrait?size=64)
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.23 16:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd would it be live?
would it be reading materials only?
would there be reading materials to go with a live session?
would it be on an ingame channel?
vent? ts? the new eve voice?
will there be a charge?
approximately how long would it be?
would it be a one time thing?
will there be guest speakers?
will there be a transcript posted, or at least one which hits the major details?
but, yes, i'm interested. ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
The big questions are:
will there be a charge? Good question. I'd like there to be a charge, but mostly so that the only people that are there, are those who are INVESTED in their education. This wouldn't be excessive, just enough to make sure people who are attending are fully engaged.
how long will it be? I can't justify spending more than 2 hours doing a class/workshop. At the minimum it would probably be 1 hour.
would it be a one time thing? I'd rather it happen once a week or so.
will there be guest speakers?
Great idea, I'd love to have this if I do go ahead with it. We are lucky to have some extremely bright and successful market players. The trick is getting them to tear themselves away from their business to do this. =)
Everything else is just details.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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![Ezoran DuBlaidd Ezoran DuBlaidd](https://images.evetech.net/characters/242116197/portrait?size=64)
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.03.25 21:54:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Hexxx Well, it sounds like people are interested. Now comes the hard part....
In your mind, what would you like to have taught at such a "trader workshop"? What topics? Any specifics? Should it be over Vent? Do you want any materials? Multiple "speakers" beside myself? Do you want a conference? A workshop? How many people should it be limited to?
I'll be brainstorming for a bit, expect a proposal sometime at the end of next week. If everyone thinks the format is good and helpful, I'll go ahead and kick this thing into gear and we'll see how it works. =) Meantime, suggestions, comments, and criticism welcome!
as for me, i'd definitely want something with a transcript. possibly video if there's going to be a floorshow.
would it be strictly "trading" or more-open ended?
i.e. something about bpo/bpcs - get your me to X because... pointers for trading in 0.0 vs lowsec vs highsec uses of jumpclones uses of alts uses of 2-4 person *teams* with alts
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![Bentus Kushani Bentus Kushani](https://images.evetech.net/characters/792057454/portrait?size=64)
Bentus Kushani
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Posted - 2007.03.26 00:17:00 -
[11]
In on this. Anybody's tricks are welcome in my bag.
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![Josson Turtur Josson Turtur](https://images.evetech.net/characters/715110252/portrait?size=64)
Josson Turtur
Gallente Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.26 03:42:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Hexxx Is anyone interested or think it wise to perhaps conduct a workshop on the fundamentals of trading, etc?
Howdy. I'm from the Trader's Academy, and we have an in game discussion channel dedicated to the very thing you're talking about. Maybe we could help ya, or maybe co-host it. :) If you're interested, Chat with us in game in the chat channels "Trader's Lounge" and "Trader's Academy".
Also if you get a chance, eve-mail myself, Rixaeton (Our CEO), or Jade Grimpkin (Our Founder). We hope to work with you and anyone interested in trade in the future.
_
Miner, Hauler, Space Cowboy Josson Turtur |
![David H'Levi David H'Levi](https://images.evetech.net/characters/862442507/portrait?size=64)
David H'Levi
Sniggerdly
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Posted - 2007.03.26 05:32:00 -
[13]
Personally, I am not sure how much good it will do: Whenever we get a 0.01 ISK thread, 9 different traders split 9 different ways on what is the best strategy for maximum profit.
Unlike in PvP, there is no way to clearly and consistently establish a winner (wait... there is in PvP?!): You may have made tons of money because of your market strategy, or because of countless other factors that cannot be recreated.
There is no trader versus trader battle in a strictly comparative environment. There is no rewind button to exactly reset the factors to the beginning: You cannot try three different market strategies in the exactly same situation to see which nets the most ISK.
I think that the EVE economy is far too complex to accurately sum up into any workshop. I think even the most basic aspects of the EVE economy are far too complex for us to even understand, let alone put into workshop form.
I would be interested to see what the results are, and I wish you the absolute best of luck. I might throw a few million ISK your way in order to attend to compare strategies. I just don't want it to turn into a bragging session "Here's what I do... (read: Here's why I am so fracking amazing!)." As much as you may love me, your signature must pertain to your in-game persona, and thus I must remove it. -Conuion Meow |
![Lypert Lypert](https://images.evetech.net/characters/897886249/portrait?size=64)
Lypert
Zemindar Supermacy
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Posted - 2007.03.26 08:37:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Lypert on 26/03/2007 08:33:32 The workshop should only be done on a conceptual level, much like how a business subject would be taught at university. Ie: this is one theory on how to do trading eg: Look at the sell orders for data sheets in the region and find the cheapest then look at the buy orders and find the best one in the region, hopefully the buy order prices are greater than the sell order price and thus your profit margin.
I am sure there are other ways but I am not a trader, I am a miner and ship builder, but I have done some minor trading when I was new in order to earn some isks. -------------------------------------------------- Zemindar Supermacy is recruiting |
![Jade Grimpkin Jade Grimpkin](https://images.evetech.net/characters/666476675/portrait?size=64)
Jade Grimpkin
Trader's Academy Daikoku Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.03.26 09:39:00 -
[15]
Concepts are good. You'll also need to think what experience of people you are aiming the course at. Most people coming into the world of trade have zero idea about Eve at all, let alone the market. Quite a few are old Elite refugees and loved the trader's life there (gems ftw).
We don't teach our new trader's to go out and buy Malkuh rocket launchers, then sell em higher. That's only going to hurt someone when one of those random nerfs come along (hey hey, that's why playing the market is so much fun).
We first try to explain what the market is, that pretty much all orders are player made. Why people are selling certain things, why others are buying them and how you can ease the process.
Obviously there is so much more to it (IPOS, faction , narcotics, boosters, contracts, couriers, direct trading, minerals etc.) and too many different ways of trading to cover it all in a one or two hour session.
I'm sure our corp/alliance would love to get involved in this. Feel free to come find me one of us in game.
Cheers,
Jade
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![Ezoran DuBlaidd Ezoran DuBlaidd](https://images.evetech.net/characters/242116197/portrait?size=64)
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Minmatar Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.03.26 12:56:00 -
[16]
the whole .01 isk thing COULD be broken down into "how much time do you want to spend on changing prices on your buy/sell orders" versus using that time to make money in a plethora of other fashions.
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![Hexxx Hexxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/833529338/portrait?size=64)
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.26 16:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: David H'Levi Personally, I am not sure how much good it will do: Whenever we get a 0.01 ISK thread, 9 different traders split 9 different ways on what is the best strategy for maximum profit.
Unlike in PvP, there is no way to clearly and consistently establish a winner (wait... there is in PvP?!): You may have made tons of money because of your market strategy, or because of countless other factors that cannot be recreated.
There is no trader versus trader battle in a strictly comparative environment. There is no rewind button to exactly reset the factors to the beginning: You cannot try three different market strategies in the exactly same situation to see which nets the most ISK.
I think that the EVE economy is far too complex to accurately sum up into any workshop. I think even the most basic aspects of the EVE economy are far too complex for us to even understand, let alone put into workshop form.
I would be interested to see what the results are, and I wish you the absolute best of luck. I might throw a few million ISK your way in order to attend to compare strategies. I just don't want it to turn into a bragging session "Here's what I do... (read: Here's why I am so fracking amazing!)."
Well I think you make a good point here; there is no silver bullet when it comes to trading strategies.
I think for a class/workshop/etc to be effective it should teach perhaps a good deal of the big concepts involved in trade with a few examples to tie things together. At any rate, I'll contact a few people mid-week.
I'm working on an outline at the moment and it's readily apparent already that there is just so much content when it comes to trading that we could do this thing for 8 hours straight and not cover everything. I'll try and nail down some of the "fundamentals" and then see how it ends up looking.
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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![nStedt nStedt](https://images.evetech.net/characters/274016635/portrait?size=64)
nStedt
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Posted - 2007.03.27 08:53:00 -
[18]
Sounds great! Please sign me up.
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![Remedios Sonrisa Remedios Sonrisa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/878179445/portrait?size=64)
Remedios Sonrisa
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.03.29 14:37:00 -
[19]
o/
Definitely interested; sounds like you will have to split up the workshop into multiple sessions. ....
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![Edward Burgess Edward Burgess](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401794336/portrait?size=64)
Edward Burgess
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Posted - 2007.03.29 17:25:00 -
[20]
Good specialist makes money using his skills. Bad specialist makes money by writing books about his speciality. ;)
I'm a young trader as for EVE, and I'm s businessman in RL.
For me is interesting to listen to other people's ideas about market strategies they used here, though I have not heard here some market-players discussions, just only market-resellers threads. I've read something in other forums about how people played here with marked, similar to RL stock markets. That's interesting.
So: - what are you planning to teach users? How to underbid each other, or what 10% underbidding means, or buy-low-sell-high? That all was many times discussed here. And each clever enough player will understand it himself. Each stupid one will never understand it. - what if I come and hear nothing new or interesting for me? - what is your background as a trader? - why are you doing that? I understand PvPers - they teach players and take them into their corps or alliances. They become stronger in that way. But this is not for traders. If you teach someone, you prepare a competitor for yourself that will use your practices against yourself.
Sorry, nothing personal, but it sounds like "buy our book and learn how to make millions". :)
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![Hexxx Hexxx](https://images.evetech.net/characters/833529338/portrait?size=64)
Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.03.29 19:46:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Edward Burgess Good specialist makes money using his skills. Bad specialist makes money by writing books about his speciality. ;)
I'm a young trader as for EVE, and I'm s businessman in RL.
In EVE I am a CEO of a 0.0 Corp, I have been a trader and a manufacturer. I fly freighters, transports, and industrials. I have consulted and assisted one the largest and most successful IPO's the EVE market has seen to date which was partially based off a template that I wrote. (FIN/EFS, check the IPO document and you'll see my name on the bottom of the last page)
I have a Bachelor of Science and a Masters of Science; I work for one of the largest consulting/accounting firms in the entire world, and while completing my graduate research I taught as a member of the faculty at the business school of my university.
Originally by: Edward Burgess
For me is interesting to listen to other people's ideas about market strategies they used here, though I have not heard here some market-players discussions, just only market-resellers threads. I've read something in other forums about how people played here with marked, similar to RL stock markets. That's interesting.
It is. If you do a search you'll find some threads I wrote on an official IPO template and an EVE Standards Body organization proposal along with a survey on best practices of a successful Corp and managing change.
Originally by: Edward Burgess
- what are you planning to teach users? How to underbid each other, or what 10% underbidding means, or buy-low-sell-high? That all was many times discussed here. And each clever enough player will understand it himself. Each stupid one will never understand it.
I will post an outline when I have one ready to give people a good idea of the kinds of topics that will be discussed. It's up to everyone if they want to attend or not based on that.
Originally by: Edward Burgess
- what if I come and hear nothing new or interesting for me?
Then I wasted your time and you wasted mine. ![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif)
Originally by: Edward Burgess
- what is your background as a trader?
Strictly in terms of trading, I've controlled 2 or 3 regions (i can safely say) and I'm currently on a new region that I switched to....because I like the challenge. I've made well over a billion isk (it might be 2 or 3 or 4 billion, I stopped counting after I crossed a billion so I can't accurately say).
Originally by: Edward Burgess
- why are you doing that? I understand PvPers - they teach players and take them into their corps or alliances. They become stronger in that way. But this is not for traders. If you teach someone, you prepare a competitor for yourself that will use your practices against yourself.
Sorry, nothing personal, but it sounds like "buy our book and learn how to make millions". :)
Fair enough. Here's why I would teach people how to play the markets: because I can't play ALL of the markets, I just don't have that kind of time, energy or (quite frankly) the desire to. Why do PvP people teach other people how to kill them? For fun I guess...
![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
Hexxx LLP - Business Consulting Services - IPO's, Business Plans, Share/Stock Pricing, and general Consulting.
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![Nyphur Nyphur](https://images.evetech.net/characters/870162765/portrait?size=64)
Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.03.29 20:12:00 -
[22]
A trading workshop? Sure! You work, I'll shop :D.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
![Shadarle Shadarle](https://images.evetech.net/characters/694207010/portrait?size=64)
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.03.29 21:22:00 -
[23]
To me a trading workshop helps new people and hurts everyone else.
Every new person who enters the trading sphere impacts the potential for those already there.
Just an FYI why most of the ultra successful traders will never tell you exactly how they trade and what they do. They will give generalities... and perhaps explain the first things they did when they started. You will not, however, get the hot trade tips from anyone smart because doing so would be shooting themselves in the foot.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
![Edward Burgess Edward Burgess](https://images.evetech.net/characters/401794336/portrait?size=64)
Edward Burgess
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Posted - 2007.03.30 17:01:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Hexxx
In EVE I am a CEO of a 0.0 Corp, I have been a trader and a manufacturer. I fly freighters, transports, and industrials. I have consulted and assisted one the largest and most successful IPO's the EVE market has seen to date which was partially based off a template that I wrote. (FIN/EFS, check the IPO document and you'll see my name on the bottom of the last page)
I have a Bachelor of Science and a Masters of Science; I work for one of the largest consulting/accounting firms in the entire world, and while completing my graduate research I taught as a member of the faculty at the business school of my university.
Sounds good, though I have got in RL 2 master degrees - IT and Business, but that only shows the level of RL intelligence. Gaming intelligence is a bit different. I will check the IPOs - they all are rather interesting. I'm tired a little earning money here from scratch. IPO is a good way to start several multi-billion projects without having these multi-billions.
Originally by: Hexxx
Strictly in terms of trading, I've controlled 2 or 3 regions (i can safely say) and I'm currently on a new region that I switched to....because I like the challenge. I've made well over a billion isk (it might be 2 or 3 or 4 billion, I stopped counting after I crossed a billion so I can't accurately say).
Come on, be serious. You make these 1-4bil in total? Or monthly? Or what? By controlling 2-3 regions? What markets do you control? That's not serious. There are different markets - scrap, ships, components, t2, ... And control of any of them in only one average region can bring tens of billions, afaik.
I'm in eve for about 2 months. I'm worth atm about 1.9bil in actives and about 0.4 in passives (BPOs, Ships, ...). And that's taking to consideration that I never paid RL money for timecodes and spent already 480mil for 4 months of timecodes. Due to my last calculations, I'm making about 2bil per month now. I've also talked with a range of professional traders. Their normal profit is about 20bil monthly.
So, man, come on :) If you made only 1-4bil in game, then what trading background are we talking about?
Anyway, word IPO made me feel interested, so I'm with your in your first briefing :)
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![Remedios Sonrisa Remedios Sonrisa](https://images.evetech.net/characters/878179445/portrait?size=64)
Remedios Sonrisa
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.03.30 19:15:00 -
[25]
When did this thread become a pee'in contest?
I still would like to attend the workshop. What I learn and take away is on my own volition. ....
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![Ezoran DuBlaidd Ezoran DuBlaidd](https://images.evetech.net/characters/242116197/portrait?size=64)
Ezoran DuBlaidd
Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.03.30 21:34:00 -
[26]
um, when someone started playing eve 2 months ago and decided he'd won?
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![Shadarle Shadarle](https://images.evetech.net/characters/694207010/portrait?size=64)
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.03.30 21:51:00 -
[27]
"I've also talked with a range of professional traders. Their normal profit is about 20bil monthly."
While I'd agree that making 4 billion is not all that much for a big time trader I would have to say that 20 billion is a bit much per month. That would be around 666 mill per day. Perhaps people who owned multiple T2 BPO's could pull in that much... but I'd say very few make that much. I'd say good traders are making 100+ mil/day... while some could make a good bit more, 150/200/250+ mil/day. But 666 mil is extremely impressive... that is just hard to believe that many people make that much. If they truly made that much they would have 100's of billions in their wallet.
It's one thing to make 666 mill/day for a month then make 30-50 mil for 6 other months. It's the average you make per day over your entire trading carrier that really matters imo.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
![Azraelion Nerevar Azraelion Nerevar](https://images.evetech.net/characters/954130129/portrait?size=64)
Azraelion Nerevar
Gallente Nerevar Construction
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Posted - 2007.03.30 23:49:00 -
[28]
I would be interested in attending.
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![Chadley Bradley Chadley Bradley](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1061990794/portrait?size=64)
Chadley Bradley
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Posted - 2007.03.31 15:37:00 -
[29]
As a very new player/trader, I'd be very interested in something like this. In fact, I would love if it was more than just a lecture over Vent or chat, but you actually had several experienced trading "professors," and after the initial lecture we broke into smaller groups to actually practice what we've been learning.
ie- Perhaps we're all given or we buy a relatively small amount of a good, then we are taken to another region (and taught the best way to locate good regions for specific products), and sell it.
Nothing for serious profit, but just practice with the market, trade runs, or anything else you guys do all day. Just a thought.
-Chadley
PS- aka Charles II, I did end up rerolling...
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![Amy Dewdrop Amy Dewdrop](https://images.evetech.net/characters/822789989/portrait?size=64)
Amy Dewdrop
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Posted - 2007.03.31 19:30:00 -
[30]
I'd be interested in attending
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