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Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.03.24 00:39:00 - [1] SO i was thinking about Heavy Assault cruisers , and people all say, "once you get a command ship you will never go back to hac's" ok so it seems thats true, but why? they just dont do anything a command ship cant do better, and the only HAC that anyone seems to think is worth it is the Vagabond, all other race HAC's seem to get outdown by the racial T1 BC's let alone the command ships. So why is the vaga the best HAC ? well its because of speed, speed is the one thing it has that no other HAC/BC/Command ship has. SO my suggestion to make HAC's useful is Give all HAC's a 100ms speed boost including the vaga keeping them all on the same lvl and a extra bonus of 2% tracking speed per lvl to keep up with the extra speed. This would now make all hacs a viable solution and fit a useful role over command ships and BC's and it would also keep the vega as the fastest which is fine. Just an idea.
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2007.03.24 00:46:00 - [2] No way, at most, the individual HACs should get a boost that helps them in their specific role. Like the deimos would get maybe more cap or more damage and the ishtar would get a better drone or tanking bonus. TBH, i dont think it should be changed at all. The prices will eventually level out when people keep getting CS instead of HACs. Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Grant Smith Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.24 00:47:00 - [3] HAC's suck. Simple as. Biggest ISK sink (bar faction) for what you get. --- G o> INFOD Director.
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.03.24 00:50:00 - [4] Originally by: Phoenix Lord No way, at most, the individual HACs should get a boost that helps them in their specific role. Like the deimos would get maybe more cap or more damage and the ishtar would get a better drone or tanking bonus. TBH, i dont think it should be changed at all. The prices will eventually level out when people keep getting CS instead of HACs. I dont think Increasing racial stats would solve anything, so it does increased damage it still cant tank or do as ,uch damage as a command ship, increasing all HAC's speed would make them fill a different role that would actually serve a purpose is what im getting at, the only reason the VAGA is so good and is really used is for its speed.
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2007.03.24 00:56:00 - [5] But speed is one of the things that minnie are for. Also, with the recent nerfs to the speed mods, i doubt CCP wants to speed anything else up :\| Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Kassidus Gallente Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering	Posted - 2007.03.24 00:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Phoenix Lord But speed is one of the things that minnie are for. Also, with the recent nerfs to the speed mods, i doubt CCP wants to speed anything else up :\| I agree miny are about speed thats why I suggest they also get the same speed boost, it would keep them the fastest still, it would really change nothing except make the HAC useful. Maybee im wrong, luckily im able to admit that, but seems like a decent idea to me :)
Constantine Arcanum IMPERIAL SENATE Pure.	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:15:00 - [7] Originally by: Grant Smith HAC's suck. Simple as. Biggest ISK sink (bar faction) for what you get. but they're fun
Phoenix Lord The Arrow Project The ARR0W Project	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:16:00 - [8] Eh well i dunno. I just see it as, ONLY the vaga can do what it does right now. If you increase speeds of all HACs, they can all do it but the vaga does it a little better. Oh yea, slot layout and fitting specs also play a role in making the vaga what it is, i think. I could be wrong too though. But i still think the best thing to do, is just let the prices even out. Arrow Capital Ship Sales
Ingols	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:23:00 - [9] 6 months from now as people train into command ships prices will go up, hac prices will come down, then the hacs will find their marktet 6 months from now command ship prices >> Hac prices. And the Ishtar isnt' to shabby of a hac either.
HongHi Choi Biometaloid INC	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:27:00 - [10] Edited by: HongHi Choi on 24/03/2007 01:24:45 Edited by: HongHi Choi on 24/03/2007 01:24:10 Edited by: HongHi Choi on 24/03/2007 01:23:35 I am a bit new, probably compared to you guys, but i realy fail to see how HACs suck. Talkin about my favourite - Ishtar i would like to compare it with domi or BC tier2. First of it's faster than both, and more agile than the BS. Being able to fly it means that you already have the 50% drone bonus and 25% turret damage. It has a starting drone bay of a myrm(125m3), and training HAC skill to lvl4 gets you a domi drone bay (not to mention a +5km drone bonus). It has t2 ship resistances (which none of the mentioned have), a much smaller sig radius and better scan resolution than both. The thing it lacks compared to domi is damage output - domi can equip large turrets. Compared to myrm it lacks the rep boost. But that's about it. And comparing it to a CS is pointless, cause it's a steping stone to it - you must have lvl5 cruiser, lvl5 spaceship command...
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:43:00 - [11] Originally by: HongHi Choi Edited by: HongHi Choi on 24/03/2007 01:24:45 I am a bit new, probably compared to you guys, but i realy fail to see how HACs suck. Talkin about my favourite - Ishtar i would like to compare it with domi or BC tier2. First of it's faster than both, and more agile than the BS. Being able to fly it means that you already have the 50% drone bonus and 25% turret damage. It has a starting drone bay of a myrm(125m3), and training HAC skill to lvl4 gets you a domi drone bay (not to mention a +5km drone bonus). It has t2 ship resistances (which none of the mentioned have), a much smaller sig radius and better scan resolution than both. The thing it lacks compared to domi is damage output - domi can equip large turrets. Compared to myrm it lacks the rep boost. But that's about it. And comparing it to a CS is pointless, cause it's a steping stone to it - you must have lvl5 cruiser, lvl5 spaceship command... Compare it to the myrmidon. The myrmidon tanks alot better, does more damage, costs a ton less, and is easier to get into. I don't see why you would ever fly an ishtar (talking pvp of course) when you could bring a myrmidon, it can do everything better.
Valbjorg	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:55:00 - [12] Quote: SO i was thinking about Heavy Assault cruisers , and people all say, "once you get a command ship you will never go back to hac's" ok so it seems thats true, but why? they just dont do anything a command ship cant do better, and the only HAC that anyone seems to think is worth it is the Vagabond, all other race HAC's seem to get outdown by the racial T1 BC's let alone the command ships. OP is missing the whole point here. HAC's are not suppose to do all, especially not to fill command ships' or BC's role. After all HAC's are only T2 cruisers with 20-30 mil building costs. Current prices are proposterous because T2 BPO-owners are making 200-300% profits.
E'Keiron	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:57:00 - [13] Dont forget when comparing a Ishtar to a Myrm, that you can take out a drone or two on a myrm, and cut its dps significantly, my Ishtar holds 7 heavies, while still holding multiple med and light sets :D Also a myrm cant compare resist wise.
Jabbs	Posted - 2007.03.24 01:58:00 - [14] Damn posting on and alt. Sorry about that (E'Keiron)
sableye principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.03.24 02:00:00 - [15] I can fly both and I still prefer my hac maybe I am just strange though in some cases I can see why a comamnd battlecruiser is better but for many cases a hac is simply justmore fun I don;nt feel they need to be boosted in anyway, there price is alot but thats dropping now thx to invention they'll find there right market price for there worth. Join The Fight With Promo Today
MotoTsume Gallente Clan Black Scorpion	Posted - 2007.03.24 02:25:00 - [16] I love my Ishtar and thing it is a very versatile ship It's just a game........Or is it?????
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.24 03:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Valbjorg Quote: SO i was thinking about Heavy Assault cruisers , and people all say, "once you get a command ship you will never go back to hac's" ok so it seems thats true, but why? they just dont do anything a command ship cant do better, and the only HAC that anyone seems to think is worth it is the Vagabond, all other race HAC's seem to get outdown by the racial T1 BC's let alone the command ships. OP is missing the whole point here. HAC's are not suppose to do all, especially not to fill command ships' or BC's role. After all HAC's are only T2 cruisers with 20-30 mil building costs. Current prices are proposterous because T2 BPO-owners are making 200-300% profits. You're switching your logic. T2 BPO owners are making huge profits because prices are high. Prices are high because people keep using HACs, even though BCs and Command Ships are often cheaper and more effective. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
Death Merchant InterGalactic Corp. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.03.24 03:27:00 - [18] There is nothing really wrong with hacs, its just that the cost/effect ratio is too much. Its really not worth it. Right now I'm stuck on either the myrmidon with its versatility(not better than Ishtar, but good enough) or the Astarte/absolution(gives me that raw firepower kick). Harbinger is nice too. However both the zealot and Cerberus are still very good ships at what they do. Ishtar is still a great ship(for running missions and such). The Deimos well....not to rehash things but lets just say it has a few problems. Nothing needs to be said about vagabonds. If they were around 80 mill or so, I would still fly them. Since they are not I won't. So unless they drop dramatically 40% or more in current prices, I wont be flying them anytime soon.
The Internets	Posted - 2007.03.24 03:30:00 - [19] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Valbjorg Quote: SO i was thinking about Heavy Assault cruisers , and people all say, "once you get a command ship you will never go back to hac's" ok so it seems thats true, but why? they just dont do anything a command ship cant do better, and the only HAC that anyone seems to think is worth it is the Vagabond, all other race HAC's seem to get outdown by the racial T1 BC's let alone the command ships. OP is missing the whole point here. HAC's are not suppose to do all, especially not to fill command ships' or BC's role. After all HAC's are only T2 cruisers with 20-30 mil building costs. Current prices are proposterous because T2 BPO-owners are making 200-300% profits. You're switching your logic. T2 BPO owners are making huge profits because prices are high. Prices are high because people keep using HACs, even though BCs and Command Ships are often cheaper and more effective. Prices are high because they are listed by the builders at such prices and there is no one out there who can undercut them and as people have never had HACs at lower prices they move at those prices. If it was simply just demand, then I wouldn't be seeing hundreds of HACs sitting on the markets being sold very slowly compared to similar T1 ships.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.03.24 03:38:00 - [20] Originally by: The Internets If The Internets say it it must be true. Sorry, couldn't resist. - Originally by: CCP Sharkbait think the problem is found. last startup now.
James Duar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.03.24 03:40:00 - [21] Exactly. If tier 2 BCs are better then HACs at the moment, stop buying HACs. That said, the skills required to get into a HAC probably make that a bit of an unreasonable statement, although that said, it may mean that the HAC concept needs something of a refinement.
Lunfal	Posted - 2007.03.24 03:53:00 - [22] Well I do think some hacs need a small boost or fix. The deimos needs to have cap issues fixed. The amarr hacs need a small boost as well. But you can't compare them to command ships because that's like comparing cruisers to battleships. They both use the same skill but one takes a whole lot more to use. That would be like saying boost cruisers because battleships make cruisers useless.
Blacklight Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.03.24 04:00:00 - [23] Originally by: The Internets Prices are high because they are listed by the builders at such prices and there is no one out there who can undercut them and as people have never had HACs at lower prices they move at those prices. If it was simply just demand, then I wouldn't be seeing hundreds of HACs sitting on the markets being sold very slowly compared to similar T1 ships. I'll argue against that point of view for a second. There are two competing drives in people that negate your point. There is the drive to accumulate wealth (which could relate to self fulfilment, ego, pride or even survival) and there is impatience, the need to reach a particular state sooner rather than later. I would argue that in an environment where demand is dropping the pressure on an individual to give in to the second drive increases. The time between sales will start to increase, stock levels increase accordingly, income will decrease in any given period, yet the infrastructure is set up to satisfy a faster turn around in stock and suppliers of components expect to be delivering the next batch before expected sales have been hit from the last batch.. etc. Changes may happen slowly and demand has to drop to whatever the threshold is where sales in any given period drop below production capability but somewhere along the line someone will think "my ****'s not moving fast enough, if I shave x million off it'll move and I can still afford next week's component delivery". Demand does drive price, just as habit and culture do. If the demand drops significantly enough prices will drop too. Blog
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.03.24 04:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Lunfal But you can't compare them to command ships because that's like comparing cruisers to battleships. They both use the same skill but one takes a whole lot more to use. That would be like saying boost cruisers because battleships make cruisers useless. QFT Command Ships are a whole other world. The OP is correct that a CS makes going back to your HAC or battlecruiser superfluous for the most part it misses the point that Command Ships are hell to train up for. There is a reason that as good as they are you do not see many. For people doing things like missions a battleship is MUCH easier to get in to, does the job pretty much as well and is about the same price.
Janney Jill Infinitus Odium	Posted - 2007.03.24 04:31:00 - [25] Edited by: Janney Jill on 24/03/2007 04:28:22 Edited by: Janney Jill on 24/03/2007 04:28:12 didnt read all posts tbh. just wanted to say: i can fly both, astarte and deimos. but apart from having slightly more agility, speed and better locktime, there is another reason for me still flying the deimos on a regular basis: flying hacs is also (next to many other reasons) a question of style. i LOVE the deimos even tho most ppl on these forums will tell you it sucks. i outdamage quite a few battleships in our gang on a regular basis and am able to tank sentries with it at the same time (in gang). but most of all: it just looks awesome. and if people tell me something is bad, i'm always trying to proof them wrong anyways. works with the deimos for me. nothing wrong with hacs: link
Lunfal	Posted - 2007.03.24 04:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Janney Jill Edited by: Janney Jill on 24/03/2007 04:28:22 Edited by: Janney Jill on 24/03/2007 04:28:12 didnt read all posts tbh. just wanted to say: i can fly both, astarte and deimos. but apart from having slightly more agility, speed and better locktime, there is another reason for me still flying the deimos on a regular basis: flying hacs is also (next to many other reasons) a question of style. i LOVE the deimos even tho most ppl on these forums will tell you it sucks. i outdamage quite a few battleships in our gang on a regular basis and am able to tank sentries with it at the same time (in gang). but most of all: it just looks awesome. and if people tell me something is bad, i'm always trying to proof them wrong anyways. works with the deimos for me. nothing wrong with hacs: link I agree with Janney on this. Hacs are still usefull and look alot better then the fugly command ships. On top of that any way you look at it, the ishtar does as much drone damage as a Dommi, and has a much bigged drone control range. If you look at the eagle, it's one hell of a sniper. Not as good as a bs, but way better then the lamox. And the careberus does almost as much damage as the nighthawk but can fire those heavies pretty darn far. We already know how much pwnage the vaga does. That just leaves us with amarr... But we all know all amar pilots rolled galante characters a while back... So yes they are more expencive than other ships that do the same role. But since invention was fixed lets stick back and watch the market for a few months before asking for buffs to ships that don't need them.
Kye Do'lan Gallente The Whitesands Consortium	Posted - 2007.03.24 13:43:00 - [27] Originally by: Kassidus and people all say, "once you get a command ship you will never go back to hac's" I can fly all HACs and command ships and TBH...in missions, my zealot is better than all the command ships, with the exception of maybe the EOS with its huge dronebay My Skills
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.03.24 13:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Phoenix Lord TBH, i dont think it should be changed at all. The prices will eventually level out when people keep getting CS instead of HACs. This has been said for like 6 months... doesnt seem to be that way. I think most people go for battleships instead of command ships. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2007.03.24 14:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Grant Smith HAC's suck. Simple as. Biggest ISK sink (bar faction) for what you get. Not true if you are in an alliance with dev-spawned BPOs that hands them out for free to members...

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