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pershphanie
T1TS Holding Corp
Terror In The System
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:47:00 -
[1]
I'm making this thread because it has become clear that ship invention will not continue to serve its function as long as long as the current system remains the same.
There are many things about ship invention that ppl may agree or disagree with, like the low success rate, bpc production, lottery issues. but putting those things aside there is one major bottleneck that is going to prevent ship inventing from becoming a viable long term part of eve. Yep, mechanical engineering datacores. There just arent enough of them to go around.
Every invention requires two types of datacores. The most common of which is mechanical engineering. Every ship in eve requires between 2-16 of these to invent alot of modules require them too. Yet there is a very limited ammount of quality agents that give these out compared with the other R&D types that require them.
At the moment there is a total of 7 lvl4 mechanical engineering R&D agents in eve. There are 31 starship engineering lvl4 agents. All datacores given by these agents are useless without an equal amount of mechanical datacores. Along with ships mechanical engineering datacores are used in mods like railguns, armor repairs, artillery, auto cannons, blasters, missile launchers, weapons upgrades, etc.
Here are the amounts of other lvl4 agents who's datacores are used with mechanical engineering(that i could think of).
starship - 31
nuclear - 8
electromagnetic - 15
rocket sci - 17
plasma - 11
nanite - 5
electronic - 15
total - 102
That's 102 different agents that give datacores which are used with mechanical engineering's 7 agents. It's simply not enough.
What does this mean to invention?
It means that the demand for mechanical engineering datacores is going to be much much higher than any other type. They will be rare and expensive. There will never be enough. It can not remain fiscally sensible to invent any ships or items that use these datacores. Basically, it kills ship invention all together.
Ships and other items which require these datacores will remain at inflated levels. BPO cartels will remain unaffected. There will be no ship invention at all.
How can this be fixed?
Well it appears their are some simple solutions.
1) more high lvl mechanical engineering agents.
2) higher % of success or run ammounts on invented ship bpcs
3) (most simple and effective solution) Change the mechanical engineering to starship datacore ratio's required to build ships. (have ship inventions use more starship datacores and less mechanical)
There is nothing in the rule book saying there needs to be equal amounts of datacore types on every invention. So why not have cruiser inventions use 14 starship datacores and 2 mechanical engineering datacores instead of 8 of each? It's a simple solution that may solve the problem entirely.
CCP if you wish for invention to be a viable method of t2 production you will do something to fix this. Invention simply wont work unless this is corrected.
Anyone who wishes to produce t2 ships through invention or simply does not like paying 200mill for a vaga and 4-500mill for a hulk please support this thread.
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Keitaro Baka
Babylon Scientific and Industrial Enterprises
Babylon Project
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:50:00 -
[2]
jup, supported here, it's quite silly there are so few mech engi agents and it's also quite silly not all races have them while they are needed for all ship invention jobs..
fix this please :)
All the stuff above does not necessarily reflect my corp, my alliance or even me..
Drone guide.. |
Ridjeck Thome
The Older Gamers
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Posted - 2007.03.28 15:59:00 -
[3]
/agree
the requirements for decryptors (especially for ship jobs) is also creating massive amounts of spawn camping - do we really want WoW in space?.
Get RID of the need for a decrpytor - the cost of datacores/ BPC/ ME inefficiency is already enough to keep the T2 BPO holder's advantage. If you want some way of 'experimenting', take a tip from SWG OLD system - the more you experiment on an item to try and achieve higher runs etc, the bigger the chance of failure.
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Neurosis
Minmatar
RillaCorp
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:04:00 -
[4]
I was wondering if anyone would ever get around to this, good post i support this!
_________________________________________________'
"I have the ability and the experience to do destroy BoB and believe me, BoB is getting desperate"
'Madeye'McCreedy'
[red]Sig is not eve r |
Vincent Almasy
Gallente
The Underground
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:11:00 -
[5]
If you half the numbed needed it will act as if there are 14 agents which would be every easy as each invention job uses a even number of those datacores
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pershphanie
T1TS Holding Corp
Terror In The System
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:17:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Vincent Almasy
If you half the numbed needed it will act as if there are 14 agents which would be every easy as each invention job uses a even number of those datacores
and less work for the devs :)
everyone wins
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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
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Posted - 2007.03.28 16:44:00 -
[7]
I was wondering why I was having such a hard time finding a mechanical engineering agent.
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Jotan Veer
Wings of Turul
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.03.28 17:15:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Jotan Veer on 28/03/2007 17:12:02
*Hugs his 5 mechanical engineering R&D agents*
Actually, there are some high quality level 3 mechanical engineering agents who give more or equal RP per day than some of that 7 level 4 you mentioned. *hint*
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Chruker
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Posted - 2007.03.28 20:39:00 -
[9]
Find the agents you need via chribbas nice site: http://www.eve-agents.com
Anyway, couldn't this be solved by reducing the amount of mechanical eng. datacores needed by the invention. I mean why does it have to be an equal amount of mechanical eng. and faction star**** eng.?
----- http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online -----
Top 3 wishes:
1: No daily downtime.
2: Updated dump of the database.
3: An update of the ingame browser, to fix ex: slow tables. |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.29 00:35:00 -
[10]
The OP post do some stange reasoning.
While seeding mechanical engineering agents in the empires lacking them would be a good move, the number of actual mechanical engineering agents is indifferent.
At most you can have 6 agents with 1 character, usually spread in agents of the same corporation of different quality (I dubt there is much people picking only best quality level 4 agents from differnt corporations as that will require high standing in multiple R&D corporation, and a longer time to get those standing).
So you can easily divide the the 3 characters in 1 account in:
1 character working with a corporation with strong mechanichal engineering section. That character obviously will have 5 in mechanical engineering to maximize production.
The second character could chose a corporation without mechanical engineering agents, but with research fields requiring them for invention. So, again if he has level 5 skill in the relevant fields, he will use all the mech eng datacores produced by the first character.
Depending on what field interest you the third character can again choose some Mech eng agents or choose fields where mech eng datacores aren't required.
So all you need to do is to keep the right ratio of mech eng agents/other agents to get the number of mech eng datacores you need.
My impression is that you have chosen other fields of study, hoping to get the T2 BPO for starships or high priced modules, and now you are discovering that 10 agents in starship and 2 in mechanical engineering don't give you enough datacore to do all the invention job you want.
That is not an effect of the number of mech eng agents, it is an effect of what agents you have recruited.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.03.29 00:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Gaogan
I was wondering why I was having such a hard time finding a mechanical engineering agent.
They are Minmatar or Caldari. Not getting them in Gallente or Amarr space is a bottleneck, not the total number.
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Iboku Kaeane
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Posted - 2007.04.08 07:53:00 -
[12]
I personally find that the issue is that there are only a number of minmatar and caldari agents who offer emch engineering research.
there is ONE (1) Amarrian agent who offers mech engineering, adn seh is lvl 1 to boot.
In my opinion adding mechanical engineering to a handfull of agents in amarr and gallente space would help with this problem in a mcuh better way than halving datacore cost.
not necessarily giving us lvl 4 agents, but at least giving amarr and gallente lvl 3 and lower, as far as i've seen, Gallente don't even HAVE mechanical engineering agents at all.
So my asuggestion would be to add the Mechanical engineering branch to 2 lvl 1 gallente agents 2 lvl 2 gallente nad 2 lvl 2 amarr agents, and to at least 1 lvl 3 agent in each of these two, considering that amarr and gallente having close to no agents who do mechanical engineerign realyl doesn't amke sense, in any way. (how did the corps in amarr invent t2 in the first place with so few ressources for it)
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Supmylo
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Posted - 2007.04.14 15:09:00 -
[13]
correct me if im worng. but surly the number of agents isnt important as every one can use the same agent and get the same number of rp and hence datacores let me give u the extreme example.
say there was only 1 cake engineering agent in the whole of eve, but 100 cookies engineering agents. there would still be an equal number of cookies and cake datacores cos everyone could use the the cake agent and people would simply use which ever cookies agent they wished.
rp and datacores are given out on a personal level its not limited by the number of agents at all.
perhaps im missing something
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Alexoin
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Posted - 2007.04.14 19:34:00 -
[14]
I think this is actually worse than you make out. In addition to there being more Starship Engineering agents, the Starship Engineering also give triple the RPs. So for each Starship Engineering agent you have, you need 3 Mechanical Engineering agents to get the equivalent amount of Datacores.
They need either need to bump up the amount of RPs Mech Eng agents give, or decrease the amount of respective datacores that are needed for starship engineering.
(Incidentally doesn't the weapon research skill also give double the base RP?)
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Athanasios Anastasiou
Elite Storm Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.04.14 20:10:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Athanasios Anastasiou on 14/04/2007 20:07:29
Originally by: Alexoin
I think this is actually worse than you make out. In addition to there being more Starship Engineering agents, the Starship Engineering also give triple the RPs. So for each Starship Engineering agent you have, you need 3 Mechanical Engineering agents to get the equivalent amount of Datacores.
They need either need to bump up the amount of RPs Mech Eng agents give, or decrease the amount of respective datacores that are needed for starship engineering.
(Incidentally doesn't the weapon research skill also give double the base RP?)
Except for the fact that you need triple the points to get a datacore out of a starship agent  .
On a sidenote, I think this provides for more interesting play. It would be dull if all datacores cost the same on the market due to their equal availability.
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BaJaiah
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.04.16 10:52:00 -
[16]
You guys forget the alternative way to get Datacores - exploration.
Sure it's more difficult than just "cook up" some with an agent. But it actually is a bit more fun if you ask me. But hey I like to blow things up 
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Arushia
Nova Labs
Empire Research
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Posted - 2007.04.22 06:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Supmylo
correct me if im worng. but surly the number of agents isnt important as every one can use the same agent and get the same number of rp and hence datacores let me give u the extreme example.
say there was only 1 cake engineering agent in the whole of eve, but 100 cookies engineering agents. there would still be an equal number of cookies and cake datacores cos everyone could use the the cake agent and people would simply use which ever cookies agent they wished.
rp and datacores are given out on a personal level its not limited by the number of agents at all.
perhaps im missing something
Not quite, because with high Research Project Management I can use as many cookies agents as I have skills for, but still only one cake agent.
I'd like to add a second mechanical engineering agent to my research agents. I have one good one in high-sec that i am already using. But the others I have standings for either give low RP/day (l2 q-19) or are in a low-sec area regularly camped by SNOWY capitals.
Great choice there, eh?
Nova Labs and Empire Research |
Frecator Dementa
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Posted - 2007.04.22 09:38:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Frecator Dementa on 22/04/2007 09:35:06
Originally by: Supmylo
correct me if im worng. but surly the number of agents isnt important as every one can use the same agent and get the same number of rp and hence datacores let me give u the extreme example.
say there was only 1 cake engineering agent in the whole of eve, but 100 cookies engineering agents. there would still be an equal number of cookies and cake datacores cos everyone could use the the cake agent and people would simply use which ever cookies agent they wished.
rp and datacores are given out on a personal level its not limited by the number of agents at all.
perhaps im missing something
you're missing the fact that very few people have the standings to get both stay... Amarr agents AND Minmatar agents.
I for one have access to Duvolle Labs (gallente) R&D but have little or no standing with Minmatar
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Marcus Dreddlin
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Posted - 2007.04.23 14:12:00 -
[19]
Perhaps it could be altered so that salvage components could be used either in place of or in the development/manufacture of datacore components or something like that? Would that make sense?
Nemo me impune lacessit |
Marcus Dreddlin
Gallente
Red Sun Industries
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Posted - 2007.05.15 19:37:00 -
[20]
What I am talking about would be a reverse engineering skill... Allowing you to take either a.) large quantities of salvage components or b.) the components themselves and process them to develop datacores... How would that sound?
Nemo me impune lacessit * Munit haec et altera vincit |
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.05.15 20:40:00 -
[21]
there is no bottleneck....
sure, the price "might" get ridiculously high on them - but that will lead to more people like me: picking up mech.eng. r&d just for the isk.
considering the price drop from 5mil to 3-3.5mil in less than a month, i wasn't the only one to skill&grind for these 5 lvl4-agents.
and as you said; it was quite a lot of work and i expect it to pay off.... if you don't want to do that work, fine, buy them off us.
now move along...
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"Ready for your... sponge bath?" |
Mocram
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Posted - 2007.05.16 09:13:00 -
[22]
All I have to say is:
6 Months missioning for caldari to get some results, and i know it won't last for ever, CCP knows how to do it, if they haven't done it yet, it's because they want the market as it is.
Mechanical, Molecular and some other high priced Datacores is what makes the diference between having a Stabber or a Vagabond. Do you think it's fair to have a Vaga at the double price of a Stabber? ofcaurse not. If CCP whishes to lower the prices on them, all they have to do is seed a bit more DCs on exploration sites, that's one of the reasons exploratin exists, Market Control. Things are good as they are. One thing I think it's unfair, but that was not mentioning in the first post, it's the Distribution of the Datacores used by all races, like Mech one. If it's necessary to build all ship races, then it should be equaly spread among them. But again, what i do is having a char in each of the races, and produce what each race gives the best. In this case, i find the Gallente the worst Race, having only some (bellow 6) usable agents.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.05.16 14:04:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Arushia
Originally by: Supmylo
correct me if im worng. but surly the number of agents isnt important as every one can use the same agent and get the same number of rp and hence datacores let me give u the extreme example.
say there was only 1 cake engineering agent in the whole of eve, but 100 cookies engineering agents. there would still be an equal number of cookies and cake datacores cos everyone could use the the cake agent and people would simply use which ever cookies agent they wished.
rp and datacores are given out on a personal level its not limited by the number of agents at all.
perhaps im missing something
Not quite, because with high Research Project Management I can use as many cookies agents as I have skills for, but still only one cake agent.
I'd like to add a second mechanical engineering agent to my research agents. I have one good one in high-sec that i am already using. But the others I have standings for either give low RP/day (l2 q-19) or are in a low-sec area regularly camped by SNOWY capitals.
Great choice there, eh?
I have run those low sec agent for 5 months, doing missions for them almost every day and I have lost 2 ships (only 1 to snowy) to the pirates.
it is a bit annoying as you need to watch out more that in high sec, but hardly impossible.
You have even the advantage of having a group of good agents in proximiti of each other, so you can run the missions every day.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.05.16 14:17:00 -
[24]
Changes are being made in Kali 2 which will ease this somewhat. Specifics will be blogged about soon(tm)!
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babylonstew
Caldari
Caldari Scouting and Intel Group
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Posted - 2007.05.16 15:05:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Changes are being made in Kali 2 which will ease this somewhat. Specifics will be blogged about soon(tm)!
\o/
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.05.16 19:58:00 -
[26]
pffft
research project management 2048000 SP
mechanical engineering 1280000 SP
negotiations 512000 SP
(science, research,laboratory op,mechanic 4x 256000SP)
~4mil SP on 4 chars
datacores have dropped below 3mil already, there's thousands available in jita, buy orders indicate growing supply by people like me...
but yeah, let's make the skill useless again
good job
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"Ready for your... sponge bath?" |
El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar
FSK23
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Posted - 2007.05.16 22:14:00 -
[27]
You only need to whine loud enough.
Next thing we know, the lvl5 agent distribution on sisi is final already (meaning caldari q17/18 in 0.8/0.9 and minmatar q-13/13 in 0.3).
Or maybe (just maybe) this is a hint of a complete rebalance (quality and location) of ALL agents.
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Treher
Minmatar
Infinity Enterprises
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.05.18 05:30:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Changes are being made in Kali 2 which will ease this somewhat. Specifics will be blogged about soon(tm)!
Nothing to ease here. Let the market do its thing.
______________________________________________________
I forget which station container has my memory implants. |
Fluffernator
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Posted - 2007.05.18 06:25:00 -
[29]
It does seem silly that there are only 7 ME agents, but my question is this: what stops you from getting standings to access that ME agent? AGents give out datacores based on LP and its no lnoger a lottery correct? AKA anyone who fulfills the requirement can get a datacore? If this is so, the imbalance is simply not enough players take the time to utilize the ME agents.
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Zenat
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Posted - 2007.05.18 08:52:00 -
[30]
The only issue with ME Datacores is the number of agents. Just look at the number of people running missions with the only 2 corps in game that do these. The market will settle within the next month or so... Especially after the last bpo lotto.
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