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A question for high-sec miners

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Mik Nostrebor Minmatar ORKS	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:26:00 - [1] While surveying areound the more backwater empire regions I noticed that there are still many many macro miners around. Infact in Sasta (Derelik - Ammatar Sovereignty) I found an op with 8-10 characters being run by one macroer or team of macroer. I am finding that Derelik and other places in general are crawling with covetors and iteron being flown you starter corp characters all of whom don't speak in local and don't react until many cans are swapped (then they react. One of them even saying 'no' from 6 characters within the same system....then being unable to continue the conversation in english at all). Note that with one exception all these characters have plausible names though no bios, standings or other personalised signs. They all also mine with 3 tech I drones out into a jet can that is collected every 10 minutes on a timetable. (the itty flies from alt to alt as if it is programmed). So the question is, are other people noticing this? When you petition them to CCP do these characters go away? Is there any action you take to discourage the macroers from mining in the systems you mine that do not breach EULA or TOS? If you have petitioned them first can you then go and can swap, steal their ore and generally treat that as if they are another player? Or would that be harrasment? Just curious/furious that macroers are still ruining mining by stripping systems. Mik AUSSIE AND KIWI EVE Fansite
Kahn Mer Torchwood Industries	Posted - 2007.03.30 00:44:00 - [2] There are several such groups in the lesser used Metropolis systems around Freatlidur. Usually 5-6 Covetor and an Iteron V hauling. Petitioning does nothing, but at least once the petition is in place you can steal from them and (in theory) not anger GMs. I think the petition is mainly to CYA, so if the GMs do take action it will be apparent that you are not part of the macro operation. Typically if you harrass them for a bit, they will leave the system and move 1-2 jumps away before setting up camp again. If you follow with an alt, you will actually see them log out and back in, one by one. My bet is the macro must be started first, then the EVE client, and the macro system doesnt support system jumps. Most of them are manned in some fashion, but are clearly using macros to 'help' the mining process. This probably also explains the lack of action on the petitions. Once the GMs investigate the operator intervenes and claims to have been running the entire op AFK. It's probably a legit excuse in some cases, but the operations I regularly see are like clockwork. You can time the hauler to the second, so either a macro or huge OCD issues.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.03.30 05:47:00 - [3] What makes you believe the guy was using a macro? I have usually mine with 2 accounts to avoid jet-can-thieve issues. Is that a sin? At one point I used 4 accounts. So what?! I paid for the accounts buying GTC with iskies, totally legal. A guy accused me once (in local) of being a macro because I didn't reply to a convo. But you know what? It was busy enough coordinating the movements of 4 clients by hand, go convo somebody else. So what!? Do you know how much friking trit is needed to make just one battleship? Plus if somebody is really using 4 accounts with a macro. Isn't it stupid to keep them on the same system/belt and atract attention? Wouldn't it be better to spread the 4 characters to different systems/belts to avoid detection? So let me figure this out: Pvpier with industrial alts, OK Carrier pilot with Cyno alts, OK POS researcher with a friking army of research alts, Ubber OK A miner with 2 miner alts, OMGWTF KILL THE MACRO? The whole macroers junting thing is nothing more than a witch-hunt promoted by people who can only kill ships with no guns.
Erala Strae	Posted - 2007.03.30 06:08:00 - [4] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor I found an op with 8-10 characters i promise you they are macroers.
Caligulus Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.03.30 08:39:00 - [5] You see, the thing is, there's speculation of macros. That's it. There is no proof. Sure you can time their movements, but frankly, that can still be done without macro assistance. Until you can conclusively prove that the guy is running a script, you've got jack. If CCP starts prosecuting (read persecuting) based on a "hunch" of some yokel then Eve has just become nothing more then a witch hunt. In turn no one will mine for fear of being banned. Which is justified when any tool box can fly into a belt, petition whoever they see and get them banned without hard evidence.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.30 12:17:00 - [6] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor While surveying areound the more backwater empire regions I noticed that there are still many many macro miners around. Infact in Sasta (Derelik - Ammatar Sovereignty) I found an op with 8-10 characters being run by one macroer or team of macroer. Derelik is infested by ISK farmers. Many of these nams are all from the same ISK farming sweat shop. Howahoward Howardedd Liastouglam Presi Cott Qunincey missuoi onelisk Dark Roughneck light miner Mimgyn xzkjxasidj Sec Tia Oaoioc Helene Den Edward Ken Astlydr charloctte mnemonicc w040010 w040015 Bout Str Cniosel Geor Gesudden gsna Holings Milkeke Sjiencv Soaleso Vinc Vincent Zabdiellkr Milkeke Vinc Vincent Holings fdh f8 jdf sg vniu uy fn87 818 bhutaw Erilasma mobilitye nobbuty leopar recent William BT slioen samsungac asdawqwsqas asjkdhuicj diwkix hydra2007 miendess qpszsh shggg zsdawsaw (And quite a few other names that I have seen but as yet failed to record) How do I know you ask. At DT and 2200 all these ISK farmers shift around to try and cover all of high sec derelik. A crew that was in one area will shift to a new area, and one of the other crews will replace the one that left. (I have been based in Derelik for more than a year and am very familiar with who's who.) These crews do not double up on the same system, and they all shift at the same time of day. The haulers and "defender" characters tend to stick together, (the driver), but the miners shift around under certain drivers from time to time. These guys do use a macro, but only to shift ore from hold to can. Some do speak english and have admited they are being paid and wonder why I keep stealing from them when this is their job. They have been petitioned, but nothing ever comes of it. -AS
Ajna Anami	Posted - 2007.03.30 18:28:00 - [7] Man, how do you get that job? "Here, we're going to pay you to play your favorite computer game all day..."
Egil Kolsto Caldari Collwood Collective	Posted - 2007.03.30 20:03:00 - [8] They pay like 3 bucks /day mate. Not like it is good cash by any modern world standard:(
Big Al Ki Shoda	Posted - 2007.03.30 20:26:00 - [9] CCP doesn't care. You can petition if you like, it won't do anything. Legit players can mine with 8+ accounts too, they may even use macros (against the EULA but if they aren't selling ISK I personally wouldn't care) Grief the farmers until they move onto a more profitable game to farm, and FFS STOP BUYING ISK.
Karasuma Akane Gallente	Posted - 2007.03.30 21:39:00 - [10] Originally by: Mik Nostrebor So the question is, are other people noticing this? When you petition them to CCP do these characters go away? Is there any action you take to discourage the macroers from mining in the systems you mine that do not breach EULA or TOS? 1) Yes. All over the place, and as Adunh pointed out, the macro operations are relatively easy to recognize. 2) No. Apparently CCP doesn't care, since you can petition the same macros multiple times and they don't disappear. 3) Steal their ore? If CCP really wanted to combat the farming operations, it wouldn't be that difficult. I think for at least one month, having perhaps three to five personnel per shift on duty to dispatach macros with extreme prejudice by quickly responding to macro petitions and having the tools to check account information (playing time and IPs) would knock out about all operations like the ones you notice, and the remainder would have to cut down their farming to economically unviable levels? ----- The possibility of successfully navigating an asteroid field is approximately 3,720 to 1.
Kritinana	Posted - 2007.03.30 22:48:00 - [11] Edited by: Kritinana on 30/03/2007 22:50:57 I've noticed this as well (it's hard to miss if you're do any decent volume of mining). As have others, i've petitioned to no avail. I do however understand the 'technical' diffculties associated with actually enforcing bans on such accounts. In the mining department (i do a few things w/ diff. chars) macro's are the biggest threat to business. The only thing you can really do that has any effect is to threaten & pillage them. Only way I've been able to deal with it effectively so far: 1. Pick your spot & setup shop. 2. Take a little bit of a break from training your mains to create a few caracal suicide bombers. 3. Be sure to keep an eye on your spot. Even if you take a break from mining for a few days, pop in once or twice a day to see who's around. (checking for farmers) 4. Anytime one of these operations tries to roll into your area do the following: - steal all their ore while spamming local "leave or die...now" (keep your scentences simple as they'll likely be using a translator to try to figure what you're saying) - Usually, this does the trick, you may get a conv. inv. and they start crying "but why?".....but typ. they will listen. - If they refuse to leave: bring out the caracals and make some fireworks. having 3 accts myself, i keep 3 kamikaze alts available, and stockpile the needed equip. at nearest station. Do this, and keep it up, stay consistent with defending your spot......and eventually they will get the point.....leaving your fav. mining system with nice fresh roids for you =). edit - as far as it possible being another 'actual player'. Give me a break, you know these guys when you see them....wether they're using scripts or not, they're isk farmers in 3rd world countries. And yes, they **** me off ........ffs stop buying isk!
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.31 04:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Kritinana 1. Pick your spot & setup shop. That is the most effective thing right there. I picked a constellation and defend it very aggressively. Also doing this allowed me to see patterns of behavior I never noticed before, mostly the times of day the crews shift and how I never saw these crews double up on one another in the same system ... which leads me to belive, all those names I listed above, are related. The legitimate local players have taken notice of the agressive defense and now help with intel, ganging up on them, tactical and strategic support. For two weeks I harrased them, stole thier ore, fliped thier cans, blew up thier ships, played barge pong with a BC and a 100mn MWD and made the constellation a less profitable place than some other poor sap's constellation. -AS
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises	Posted - 2007.03.31 10:49:00 - [13] This is it - you are in competition! Treat them as a legitimate mining crew, unless you feel they are macro-ing, in which case, petition. You cannot WarDec - so it's: Stealing; & Bumping. Compete - make them go away......
foolers	Posted - 2007.03.31 10:53:00 - [14] How smart are their macros? Is it possible to get them to can-flag so you can go after them without suicide?
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.03.31 13:52:00 - [15] Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 31/03/2007 13:53:10 Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 31/03/2007 13:51:51 Originally by: foolers How smart are their macros? Is it possible to get them to can-flag so you can go after them without suicide? Most of them have wised up and only use a script to move ore from hold to can if they use a script at all. Most of them are one person controling four or five accounts at the same time. That, and the fact they are doing this for RL profit are their weakness. I tend to only get ship kills as a consequence of them screwing up, getting frustrated and stealing back ore, or if they have a defender guy. The defender guy is intresting. They'll get a char with some sort of combat ship to drop cans near the miners and use that can. So when you flip it, you get aggro to to this defender person. Trouble for them is that if you flip cans in a shuttle, its small signature radius means they can't lock you very fast. Even if they do get a lock, by the time you've got aggro, you can be gone before they can shoot you as the latency to china is significant. Also , since he has to defend four or five miners, if you book mark all thier cans, he can't possibly know where you're going to hit next. If he takes a shot at you and blows up a shuttle, who cares. But now you have aggro and can intrduce him to a real PVP setup and not his caracal with lasers. :) Have a corp mate, or a friendly local (set him to +10 standings so he can take from your cans with out aggro) go around and scoop up all the cans. Or wait around and hope the hauler gets frustrated and takes from one of your cans, then blow him up. If a defender guy is around, go out in a frig with a passive targeter, ship scanner and a cargo scanner. Let him think you're going to steal so the defendr guy warps in. Target him with the passive and scan his ship, get a good look at him and then fit a combat ship to counter his setup. -AS
Kritinana	Posted - 2007.03.31 20:37:00 - [16] Sounds like you have a good time messing with them at least '). For myself, trying to defend a whole constelation is a bit much. I typically select 2-3 systems and enforce those. Usually, if i get any comm. from them i simply say "stay out of system x, system y, system z,....anywhere else knock yerself out". Usually when given an option they will listen, and typ. just mine right next door. If they don't listen however, thats when the caracals come out for some kamikazi fun until they get the point. Then main reason I began to get more specific on location, as opposed to flat out hunting them down, is that in the latter i would end up spending more time/isk killing tham than actually mining the areas i'm trying to defend. And I also came to the realization that, untill ccp changes something, they're never going to simply 'go away'. But if you're very specific as to where you enforce keeping them out, it is much easier & more effective, thus leaving you with more time to exploit the space you're defending.
Atomic Mayhem Bottomfeeders Inc Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.04.01 04:26:00 - [17] I never understood why people have such a vendetta against macro-industralists. Granted I don't know alot about industry, prefering the PvP aspect of the game, but simple mechanics dictates more raw minerals on the market = cheaper battleships for me to lose in lag-fest fleet ops. An associate said that Trit has risen to the highest levels he has ever seen (2.5 isk/unit, which still seems cheap to me but what do I know). He thinks it's because CCP has been *****ing down on macro miners and that player harassment has become more organized. What I think is funny is that he pointed out that prices often spike in basic materials after a content patch, which supposidly breaks macro programs. That in turn leads to an similar increase in ship prices about a week later and argues that the price difference is the amount of isk per ship he is being cheated out of because he mines his own minerals. I'll take his word for it... but I would rather have cheap ships and macro miners in empire belts than expensive ships and massive veldispar rocks in 1.0 systems. I for one welcome our macro-industralist overlords, so long as my battleships stay low in price. -- Atomic
Kritinana	Posted - 2007.04.01 09:36:00 - [18] Well, as for the reason people have a vendetta against them is they're major competition for profits. If i decide i'm do some mining today, make a day of it and strip out a whole system.......but alas, some macro / farmer beat me to it. That means i just lost a load isk (few hundred mil.). At that point it takes like a week for a system to fully respawn, even then thats only if they don't come back and nibble on their own crumbs. You're competing for the same source of income. I'm sure there's some kind of comparison to that in the pvp world.....basically someone making your life difficult in terms of making money. You'd want to blow them up too ;) In regard to effect on the market, i can appreciate your viewpoint, however they effect they have on prices is slim to none. Yes we've seen a spike in highsec min. prices since kali. But that's not because of macro's being banned etc. The same ones around today were around a months ago before the spike. Even if ccp miraculously banned all farmers tommorrow, any spike would be tempory as the market will always balance itself out. Mining is profitable because its boring and not many people want to do it. If there was a huge min. spike due to macro bans more people would be willing to endure the snooze for the bigger profit, thus providing more supply and gradually dropping the prices back down = market balanced.
Mik Nostrebor Minmatar ORKS	Posted - 2007.04.03 05:21:00 - [19] Thanks for the responses! And thanks for the list of isk farmers in Derelik too. I did try a few of the methods posted but there were some good ideas. After can stealing about 10 partial cans of ore and telling him (milkeke and his crew) to leave the system he scrammed and blew up my mammoth that I was using to steal ore. Oh well. :) I got about several mill worth of ore off him and the mammoth cost me less than 1 mill including fittings. I noticed though that when I can swapped he would not take the can back ever the shuttle/hauler mate idea is very appealing. This is a financial tactic and when coupled with repeated requests to leave the system in local, the macro miner/farmer will lose money and waste time by mining your system. In the worst case they do the mining for you. I would estimate in 1 hour of harassment I got the equivalent of over 3 full cans of ore which is almost 1 can more ore than I can mine in an hour. Either way I guess it is win win for the determined player. If they won't leave you get free mining done for you, if they do you get the belts regenerating to a reasonable level. Again thanks for the posts. Mik PS: Appologies for my poor typing and bad grammar. What I think in my head does not come out my fingers like it ought to. I think I am getting too old.
Garatin	Posted - 2007.04.03 17:42:00 - [20] Hi friends against macrominers, i live in Antollare since 6 months, and in the last 2 weeks there are many macrominers in the icebelts here! I make a petition, but only for 2 days are fewer macrominers here, and then all the same characters come again and do same mining :( So how can i kill them with gallente ships/ammo/items asap ??? Or any other ideas how i can fear them away ??? Thanks in advance for all helpful tips! Garatin
Shinakari	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:15:00 - [21] Edited by: Shinakari on 03/04/2007 18:12:02 Damn alt
xxArchangelxx	Posted - 2007.04.03 18:16:00 - [22] Adunh and I have a good time terrorizing the local macro population of our home Constellation. After you watch their habits for a while and get to know your local Chinese sweatshop employee, you can flip cans, steal ore and make money being a general pest. Lately we have even started seeing some sophisticated macros, allowing them to have haulers jump a system or two back and forth to a station to offload the ore. Macros are easier to create than most people think, and there are more macro miners around that people believe. Its very profitable given the steep learning curve and slow progression of EVE. As for mineral prices - Its simple Economic 101, supply and demand. As demand increases more people mine, thus creating more supply. When demand decreases, I quit mining and run more missions or go back to Bloodthirsty Pirating more often. The supply in general stays the same, so your ship prices stay in check at the relative same levels.
G0rF Gallente The Causality Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.04.19 15:22:00 - [23] Join channel "MACRO INTEL". Suicide kestrels 4TW! The Causality international MMO gamers' community
Lord DarkStar	Posted - 2007.04.19 17:28:00 - [24] there was a gang of macros right beside aeddin in MH - friend of mine was mining the belts there and be basicly stole their ore and harrasted them till they left .. that was a few months ago .. never came back yet ... if they do ... ill just steal a jetcan load of ore with my indy :P but just to update ... the script they were using had the indy jumping to aeddin to drop off ore and come back .. all miners dropped ore into 1 can for the indy and all followed that 1 can .. if u swapped the can the miners stop mining till whoever is running them resets it .. quite entertaining :P
Petrothian Tong Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.19 19:25:00 - [25] Edited by: Petrothian Tong on 19/04/2007 19:22:25 most of them are farmers...very rarely that you can disrupt them without them adapting or screaming... annoy them enough and they will talk to ya...but yeah, they arent the "computer macro script" thingy people been witch hunting about EDIT: and yes, they DO have people behind them... thus when a GM comes checking, they talk to the GM and wala... life goes on. -Siggi- ""PvP" isn't only direct person to person combat, it can be very indirect. Selling an item on the market which somebody buys from you is resulting in another guy not getting a sale." Oveur
franny Phoenix Knights Dark Nebula Galactic Empire	Posted - 2007.04.20 07:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Garatin So how can i kill them with gallente ships/ammo/items asap ??? Or any other ideas how i can fear them away ??? are they all clumped up? it's a lot easier to suicide them as a clump megathron + large smartbombs(em + exp split seems to be best) cram as many 1600mm plates as you can, maybe a dmg control if you run out of fittings before lows(not sure your skills), you want total hitpoints not sustainable tank insured, you lose minimal, if their strips survive as you resell them another way is a destroyer, the catalyst with cheap blasters and magstabs load with antimatter(no need to carry extra ammo) if you hunt serp rats, all but the ship is free bring friends, I forget the # of dessys per what size barge... and have a hauler friend/alt do a loot and scoot with their ore and all surviving mods there are/were a couple anti macro channels and the ore thief channel, try joining them... they can give more current ways as i've been out of the loop due to rl AFK - PKKP Recruitment
Darth Plague Amarr Centurians	Posted - 2007.04.20 09:33:00 - [27] Have one person as a non combatant to collect loot and go in with 4 kestrals with rocket launchers . The dropped gear from the barge more than pay for the opp.
Kor'Dhuul Infinite Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Derelik is infested by ISK farmers. Many of these nams are all from the same ISK farming sweat shop. <snip excellent list> We have been actively defending our area of Hi Sec operations from this group for the last few weeks. Yesterday there was a new occurance i thought you might like to know about. After a pretty standard operation we had a Myrm warp in piloted by "fn87 818" who proceeded to engage our Domi and Crow pilots using ECM, dual-webbers, drones, warp scrams etc. Then another pilot joined in "Quen Tonn" also in a Myrm in an almost identical setup but with a very impressive tank that the Domi's drones Orge's couldn't even start to damage. The Domi and the Crow both died. The reason I mention this isn't to point out how much we suck for being killed by a macro but becuase this Quen Tonn chap actually has a corp history and isn't on your rather nice list!!! --
Lynae Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.20 13:51:00 - [29] Is it allowed to steal their ore? I am not sure, so we always blew the cans up, after swapping. Any info? ___ Originally by: Dark Shikari They're protected by shuttles carrying Templars, Amarr fighter drones used by carriers, but their tanks aren't that strong.
Niton Stormrider HCD	Posted - 2007.04.20 18:24:00 - [30] A lot of people seem to be under the impression that ore thieving can get you in trouble...is this actually a bannable offense? I always assumed that ore stealing was no more against the EULA than suicide ganking or any other kind of griefing. Should I be petitioning ore thieves?

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