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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2016.11.14 07:14:17 -
[1] - Quote
I understand why I, as the game currently stands, need to spam d-scan (at least if I'm in a wormhole or something). What I'm asking is, what is the GAMEPLAY DESIGN reason for this?
There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.
The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.
If that is the reason it is designed this way (the game should be a spam-clicky RTT kind of game), why stop at d-scan? What about the local chat window? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the overview? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the window you are looking at the 'game world' through? Why not add a button to spam-click to update that? Come on, let's separate the men from the boys here, and let's separate the wheat from the chaff. If we are gonna have a spam-clicky game, don't do some pathetic, half-handed approach. Let's go all out with it.
If I'm missing something as far as the reason for this, pray tell. Or, if the reason is "we need pointless APM sinks," give me an argument as to why. Otherwise, come on guys. Update the damn d-scan. Turn it into some radar-esque type of thing showing blips, or at the very least, keep it the way it is but make it continuously updating like local chat or overview or anything else. The way this thing is designed now is just dumb. And yes, I'm quite good at hitting the stupid thing every 5 seconds without forgetting, I just think it's dumb. |
Ria Nieyli
47164
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Posted - 2016.11.14 09:23:46 -
[2] - Quote
You can hotkey d-scan now. It's easier than ever. |
Geronimo McVain
EVE University Ivy League
230
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Posted - 2016.11.14 09:44:30 -
[3] - Quote
The reason is simple: Activity is rewarded. EVE is living from PvP and in Eve a lot of PvP are the results of an errors on one side. You don't click the D-Scan -> you get killed. You don't realize that cloaking deactivated -> boom, You didn't check local often enough -> hello clonebay. You trade locally -> you get scammed
CCP could stop all this with automatics but this would result in a harsh reduction of PVP or other "unwanted" player activities. Most console titles have aiming helps. Now think of a shooter with 100% perfect autoaim. It wouldn't be fun because it wouldn't need any skill on your side. So game design has always build in imperfection. Need to click D-Scan is one in EVE: yes CCP could make it better but it would make the game worse. |
Vigirr
33
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Posted - 2016.11.14 10:00:48 -
[4] - Quote
First of all as explained above, activity is rewarded or rather laziness should not be rewarded. Secondly it's a server thing. If everyone would always use Dscan, as it's automated, that would require a whole lot more server cpu and data.
The majority of people do not need Dscan for the majority of the time, thus it's not automated.
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Keno Skir
911
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Posted - 2016.11.14 10:27:41 -
[5] - Quote
Posting in another one of Beast's "wahh, I don't understand the mechanic so it must be broken" threads..
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Aehren Armitage
6
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:17:04 -
[6] - Quote
It's a bit of a tricky situation because anyone worth their salt spams D-scan anyway (and therefore it's a needless button-mashing pain in the ass) and anyone who doesn't is a great target (especially in J-space).
Making it automatic would reduce d-scan to something as annoying and passive as the overview (i.e. set up up when you first start playing as the default is awful and then keep it as is for the rest of your Eve career) and basically just create another UI window you HAVE to have open, that everyone has open, and therefore no-one needs (why not just add Local chat to WH space, or ship class/type to local?).
At the same time, I understand where you're coming from. As I run WH sites I spam the hotkey and it's just a crappy additional thing that everyone kinda does anyway. But some people don't, and then kills are much more likely, which is the real point of Eve.
Sorry I didn't really help, I'm in two minds about it myself.
Maybe a mid-point would be to have D-scan refresh every time a module was activated or a drone was given an order? That way, active players (90% of whom spam it anyway) would get the same result while playing the game, but passive/AFK players would be SOL and see nothing.
I dunno, it works the way it is, but I do have to agree it could be streamlined a little without making it mindless.
High on a hill was a lonely goat herd.
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The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
220
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:44:55 -
[7] - Quote
He has a point, radar that doesn't update itself seems primitive and breaks immersion. If they can't handle the server traffic then we just have to live with it, but Eve players please stop having such a sensitive and touchy armpit about every little criticism of the game, Eve is not perfect and is not a large game, it cannot afford to be foolishly ignorant of its faults.
-:¦:-GÇó:'":GÇó.-:¦:-GÇó* K H A N I D GÇó-:¦:-GÇó:''''*:GÇó-:¦:-
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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:45:52 -
[8] - Quote
Geronimo McVain wrote:The reason is simple: Activity is rewarded. EVE is living from PvP and in Eve a lot of PvP are the results of an errors on one side. You don't click the D-Scan -> you get killed. You don't realize that cloaking deactivated -> boom, You didn't check local often enough -> hello clonebay. You trade locally -> you get scammed
CCP could stop all this with automatics but this would result in a harsh reduction of PVP or other "unwanted" player activities. Most console titles have aiming helps. Now think of a shooter with 100% perfect autoaim. It wouldn't be fun because it wouldn't need any skill on your side. So game design has always build in imperfection. Need to click D-Scan is one in EVE: yes CCP could make it better but it would make the game worse.
You didn't explain why this wonderful button-mashing spam mechanic shouldn't also be added to overview, to local chat, etc. |
Amon Santos
Dot.Inc TRUE VINE
0
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:46:11 -
[9] - Quote
I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). |
The Golden Serpent
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
220
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:47:01 -
[10] - Quote
Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on).
What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic.
-:¦:-GÇó:'":GÇó.-:¦:-GÇó* K H A N I D GÇó-:¦:-GÇó:''''*:GÇó-:¦:-
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Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:52:29 -
[11] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:First of all as explained above, activity is rewarded or rather laziness should not be rewarded.
You didn't explain why this wonderous 'activity' mechanic, and 'punishment of laziness' mechanic, shouldn't also be added to overview, local chat, etc.
Quote:Secondly it's a server thing. If everyone would always use Dscan, as it's automated, that would require a whole lot more server cpu and data.
I'm a professional server developer. I'm sure others who post on these forums are also, and opinions may vary, but it seems to me that whatever info which is already being sent every ping (local chat info, overview info, etc) could just be augmented with the dscan info. Yes, it would mean more data being sent. But with server speeds, bandwidth etc. available today, I doubt it would be a big deal, especially if compression is being used, which I'd guess it is.
Still, I don't know that for sure, it's just a guess. If some CCP developer posted and said this was the reason for dscan being the way it is, I'd be relieved. I'd much rather it be a technical issue than a gameplay design choice.
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Elenahina
agony unleashed Agony Empire
1431
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Posted - 2016.11.14 11:58:44 -
[12] - Quote
The Golden Serpent wrote:Amon Santos wrote:I think one simple solution is to create a "module like" button that activates a Dscan cycle every 5...10...15sec (like repeat mode on). What would be REALLY scary is a Dscan we can't control and only updates every 5 seconds. That would make PvP much more chaotic.
That would be awesome.
Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you.
Also, iderno
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Vigirr
33
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:02:20 -
[13] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:I doubt it would be a big deal
At any given time only very few people run Dscan, now picture everyone doing it all the time. Then picture a 1000 man fleet against another 1000 man fleet, they normally don't use Dscan because it's not needed, that's what the scouts are for. If automated they all use Dscan all the time and it'll grind that node to a halt, N+1 messes this up massively.
If you don't understand how this would be a big deal in regards to server CPU then you should probably start to question your own logic, reasoning and knowledge. |
Swoop McFly
Pandemic Horde Inc. Pandemic Horde
55
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:09:20 -
[14] - Quote
If you've lived in w-space for long enough you don't even notice it anymore that you are smashing that button.
CCP has actually said that they are not happy with the instant perfect intel from local - so expect that this will change at some point. (probably when the observatory arrays are released)
When you hit d-scan the server needs to calculate the distance between you and every ship and object in system. If the server had to do that for every player in system the workload would scale with N^2. The server nodes already have trouble keeping up in big battles - hitting them with another N^2 problem would not be a good idea. |
Salvos Rhoska
1573
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:18:37 -
[15] - Quote
Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?
PvE v PvP
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Bid for unique CODE neon edition special agent certificate!
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Vigirr
33
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:19:37 -
[16] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?
No, any form of automation is forbidden. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:45:45 -
[17] - Quote
Vigirr wrote: If you don't understand how this would be a big deal in regards to server CPU then you should probably start to question your own logic, reasoning and knowledge.
Of course I understand how something could or would be a big deal, depending on the particulars. I don't know how the server and clients are designed, I don't know the data involved, the payload sizes, etc. If experts who have been working on this describe the problem (which I'm not familiar with), the size of the 'deal' (big or small) would be easy to see. I'd either agree with them, or disagree and decide it could all be designed better. It all just depends.
Probably the 'right' way to do this, all other things being equal, would be to send the data on all ships in the area to the client with each payload, and let the client do the computations for the dscan. But again, I don't understand all the issues here, and neither does anyone else who doesn't work on the client, server, or both.
This is pure theorycraft - I don't know how many bytes to encode a ship, but assuming it's a couple of bytes (a big assumption on my part), a couple thousand ships could be some multiple of a couple thousand bytes. Theoretically it could be 'cheap,' but I don't know. |
Beast of Revelations
Hedion University Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:46:34 -
[18] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE?
I don't know why it wouldn't be allowed for purely to remap keys. |
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
711
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:48:24 -
[19] - Quote
I changed my hotkey to space bar for the directional scanner.
Space space space space space space space space
@lunettelulu7
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Vigirr
33
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Posted - 2016.11.14 12:50:47 -
[20] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:This is pure theorycraft.... Theoretically it could be 'cheap,' ...but I don't know.
Why don't you just stop voicing your mistaken statements, baseless assumptions and hilarious demands for game design changes, if you realise that you don't know wth you're talking about.
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Keno Skir
913
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Posted - 2016.11.14 13:16:04 -
[21] - Quote
Dscan is a catalyst for conflict. Conflict drives the entire in game economy and all activity within it. In a HUGE number of cases conflict is only possible due to a pilots negligence with regard to dscan. If we automate all aspects of safety conflict becomes a rarity which is the opposite of what CCP want. Dscan is the embodiment of the players choice, whether to put in effort or be lazy and reap the rewards of either. Working as intended, the lazy become food for those who are willing to put the effort in.
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Bagatur I
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
79
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Posted - 2016.11.14 13:21:56 -
[22] - Quote
Swoop McFly wrote:
When you hit d-scan the server needs to calculate the distance between you and every ship and object in system. If the server had to do that for every player in system the workload would scale with N^2. The server nodes already have trouble keeping up in big battles - hitting them with another N^2 problem would not be a good idea.
it is already doing that for overview - objects and ships, as I sometimes briefly see ships warping by, or briefly see something in overview as I warped by. adding that to dscan wont require re-calculating the distances, it will be just like overview with bigger "grid" size so-to-speak and less info to show (only ship names). |
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners Test Alliance Please Ignore
14901
|
Posted - 2016.11.14 13:27:08 -
[23] - Quote
Damn, now I have to agree with Beast. Having to smash a button every few seconds is stupid. The game should reward AWARENESS (ie you should have to be looking at your client), not repetitive stress injury inducing button smashing.
Now I don't beleive d-scan should 'ping' audibly like radar when new results show up (again you shold have to be looking at your client), and maybe having to click a button for a 1 minute cycle wouldn't be so bad (to keep you 'active'), but the current situation is crap. need to spam d-scan is imo one thing that keeps more people from playing in wormholes more often, having to spam is annoying as hell. |
Captain Awkward
Republic University Minmatar Republic
129
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Posted - 2016.11.14 13:46:54 -
[24] - Quote
Im not sure if it is a mechanic that needs to be in place because of server mechnics.
When you DScan, your computer ask the sever for a list of all the things in your DScan range. The actuall information where it is needs to stay on the server in order to prevent the eve online version of wallhacks.
A automated broadcast system might put to mutch stress on the server. Espacially in larger fleet fights.
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Revis Owen
The Conference Elite CODE.
428
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Posted - 2016.11.14 14:15:37 -
[25] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:it seems to me that whatever info which is already being sent every ping (local chat info, overview info, etc) could just be augmented with the dscan info.
I endorse this product and/or service idea.
I can think of many EULA-compliant ways to use that additional incoming data to enhance my Code enforcement work!
Thank you, carebear, for yet again making a suggestion you think will make things safer for you, that would actually help me to asplode you more.
Agent of the New Order
http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
If you do not have a current Mining Permit, please contact me for issuance.
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Darth Magus
The Lone Magus
7
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Posted - 2016.11.14 16:03:27 -
[26] - Quote
Beast of Revelations wrote:I understand why I, as the game currently stands, need to spam d-scan (at least if I'm in a wormhole or something). What I'm asking is, what is the GAMEPLAY DESIGN reason for this?
There can be no lore aspect to this. In the real world, even our (relatively-speaking) low-tech airplanes - even el-cheapo ones - have continuously updating radars. The pilot doesn't have to keep reaching over and spamming the 'show objects' button while flying the plane.
The only reason I can come up with is some kind of misguided 'Starcraft' notion of having to click and spam buttons to expend APM to separate higher-skilled players from lower-skilled ones. Even in Starcraft, this notion is debated (although the spam-clicky side won), but I don't think there should even be a debate in this game, however. I don't think anyone thinks, or should think, of this game as a spam-clicky Starcrafty real-time tactical.
If that is the reason it is designed this way (the game should be a spam-clicky RTT kind of game), why stop at d-scan? What about the local chat window? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the overview? Why not add a button to spam-click for updating it? What about the window you are looking at the 'game world' through? Why not add a button to spam-click to update that? Come on, let's separate the men from the boys here, and let's separate the wheat from the chaff. If we are gonna have a spam-clicky game, don't do some pathetic, half-handed approach. Let's go all out with it.
If I'm missing something as far as the reason for this, pray tell. Or, if the reason is "we need pointless APM sinks," give me an argument as to why. Otherwise, come on guys. Update the damn d-scan. Turn it into some radar-esque type of thing showing blips, or at the very least, keep it the way it is but make it continuously updating like local chat or overview or anything else. The way this thing is designed now is just dumb. And yes, I'm quite good at hitting the stupid thing every 5 seconds without forgetting, I just think it's dumb.
Great idea!!! Lets add "refresh" button to overview and Local chat!
+ 1 !!!
(You are trolling and so am I)
But really - using D-scan (spamming it) is a big part of "know your surroundings gameplay"...
Otherwise we might as well dumb this down and just show all ships(players) in the system on your overview and get rid of D-scan all together, right?
Also remove cosmic anomalies - and put them all on the overview to easily warp to. Also mining lasers should automatically switch over to a new asteroid once one that you are currently mining is exhausted...right?
Right? |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2016.11.14 16:50:11 -
[27] - Quote
I'm so happy most people posting here aren't involved in any decision making. D-scan is not a catalyst for conflict or the lack of updating it. Its a user interface like any other interface you use to connect to the underlying virtual machine. The fact that it exists is not a question of design choice of 2016 as this tool was around sense the birth of eve and most likely an archaic tool that should have been put to bed a long time ago, but as eve players fond of there conservative mindsets its left intact after almost 10+ years. Like most other parts of eve it should be questioned and removed if its not serving its intended purpose. Its also quite foolish guessing ccps server architecture and believing that it would cause lag and is the reason its not auto updating, making stupid assumptions turns you into a tinfoil engineer.
I think the issue of D-scan isn't the idea of manually needing updates. Its the fact that it can pre-alert the player of off-grid activity's. I believe it was one of the main devs talking about putting the D-scan into the overview but somehow it never did end up happening. Sadly its a nifty cool little toy until your completely dependent on its use like in J-space. Then you realize how stupid the UI design is and what pvp boils down to. A click and update tool that will give you a list of possible hostiles for you to make rudimentary decisions to run or engage before the enemy team is on grid.
I think the issue is in the whole list mechanic and update system that needs to be thought through. EvE pvp should probably be updated to serve a more complex engagement system. The whole update system is very rudimentary. I'm probably trying to rethink the whole core game from the ground up but the whole update system isn't very exciting and engaging, its almost a game made perfect for an AI except they expect a player to take its place and do what we are bad at. Players should handle the upper level decisions and leave the lower level updates to something more automatic like all other client UI interfaces. Sadly a change of this magnitude to make things better probably needs a heavy alteration that we may never see in EvE altogether, might also ruin what makes this game what it is. It would be nice to see the D-scanner get integrated into the Overview though. |
Bumblefck
Kerensky Initiatives
13128
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Posted - 2016.11.14 18:44:44 -
[28] - Quote
Vigirr wrote:Salvos Rhoska wrote:Is using autohotkey allowed in EVE? No, any form of automation is forbidden.
Tell that to the OP, who seems to use a script to generate this kind of thread
Perfection is a dish best served like wasabi .
Bumble's Space Log
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Memphis Baas
2256
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Posted - 2016.11.14 19:17:23 -
[29] - Quote
Listen, we didn't have d-scan a number of years ago, CCP added it as a feature so you could see who was hunting you, and they specifically made it so it's not automated but rather you need to click the button to see who's coming.
So you can complain all you want, and try to use stupid arguments like "why isn't everything else click-spammy", but please take your complaints to the petition system because they're annoying us here. We're players. What do you expect us to do about it? Join you in your whining to CCP? **** no, we don't give a ****. |
Ashterothi
Aideron Robotics
420
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Posted - 2016.11.14 19:29:11 -
[30] - Quote
I think the real reason why this exists is to demand attention.
When you are clicking the Dscan button every 5 seconds, you are not on Reddit, you are not chatting, you can only be so aware of so many things.
If Dscan cycled automatically, you would only have to keep the window up, keeping one eye on it. There is no required investment, and thus LESS people will be inattentive.
For EVE to work the tools that keep you safe have to be a bit faulty and cumbersome, otherwise people make less mistakes. The annoyance you feel as you endlessly dscan is exactly the tradeoff you give to be better than the other people. Those who can stay attentive survive, and the less barriers to attentiveness, the harder it is to catch people unaware.
You are correct, in real life you will have systems that start a claxon the second new people come within a prescribed boundary distance. You would have systems that automatically protected you, and perhaps better defenses, but that is because the design goal of building actual equipment is to maximize the abilities of the operator. The goal in EVE is to facilitate interesting and exciting events. The system is engineered as such that you have to work for your victory.
All that said, I would benefit greatly if Dscan became automatic, but long ago I accepted that it _does_ make the game a better, more interesting one, even if it breaks the omnipotent star-ship pilot fantasy just a wee bit.
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