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Carter Burke	Posted - 2007.03.31 18:45:00 - [1] Dumb builders. Perfect example: the Rokh battleship. Driving through Essence today, saw several priced at about 10% below build cost. I mean, WOW, that befuddles me. Here's someone who has already paid 1.3 Billion for a blueprint, who knows how much for mineral research, and is now selling units at a 20 million loss, each. It's like someone going into a 5/10 complex in an Atron. There simply isn't an explanation that I can imagine. I could see maybe one unit, if it'd been sitting on market for a while, and the owner wanted to clear inventory to make other stuff, but good lord . Needless to say, I bought several for redistribution. If he's going to save me the build time AND hand me an extra 10% margin, who am I to say no? CB
Motorcycle Emptiness Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.03.31 18:46:00 - [2] hey, I was hoping my Atron could speed tank the 'plex! Flashing White Box (rank 1)
Tunajuice Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.03.31 18:49:00 - [3] 1) Maybe he get his minerals cheaper than you. You can get minerals cheaper than buy cost. 2) Maybe its not a builder, someone who bought it for missions, hated it, and is selling it back at a small loss to get rid of it as fast as possible.
Stakhanov Shih Yang Tong	Posted - 2007.03.31 18:59:00 - [4] Lots of T1 BS being sold below base price. I think they come from industrialist corps that make it a point of pride to build stuff from the minerals they mine It's possible to make a small benefit recycling those , but most traders have more profitable occupations.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:00:00 - [5] Maybe he gets his minerals for free by mining them himself _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Star Commander
Carter Burke	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:04:00 - [6] If he mines them himself (or buys mins cheaper, doesn't matter which), he'd make more money selling them on market - that's my whole point ). I picked up three in the same sell order today - and if the builder had simply sold the bare minerals, he'd have made an extra 10% over what I paid him for the constructed units. That is, in a word, dumb. CB
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Tunajuice 1) Maybe he get his minerals cheaper than you. You can get minerals cheaper than buy cost. He's still a fool for missing out on profit because even with a cheaper mineral source he would have made more selling the mins at the standard price than using them to build a ship and sell it below cost. For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. Originally by: Tunajuice 2) Maybe its not a builder, someone who bought it for missions, hated it, and is selling it back at a small loss to get rid of it as fast as possible. OP already said it was much more than one on the market so it wouldn't be a mission runner reselling a ship they didn't like. Some people just don't understand the basics of production, although the side benefit of them is that underpriced mods can make a nice cheap source of easy minerals.
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:44:00 - [8] Perhaps he's just out to **** someone off. I do it! I got a Stabber BPO, ME'd it, and now I build and sell them at a loss just to annoy the 1 isk undercutters. Eve is a game. I'll play it how I want. I don't care how much isk I've got in my wallet, so long as I've got enough to do what I want. Drone Love - My skills
heheheh Singularity. The Cartel.	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:51:00 - [9] you want to know what even dumber than that ? Some know it all making a post about a situation he know nothing about. Hell someone might have gave him 100 ships tha the wants to get rid of for all you know, there could be loads of reason for sellingthem so cheap. Also not everyone is obbsessed with making every single ISK they possibly can. Your way of seeing things, is not the only way.
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way.

Minnie Trader	Posted - 2007.03.31 19:55:00 - [11] I don't even know where to begin on this. 1. Try running your spreadsheet on those Rokhs at mineral sell not buy prices. And I don't mean the onesies-twosies of 1000 units, I mean the volume orders. Factor in travel time to deliver the minerals to the best buy orders. Remember that time literaly is money. Still looking like a free 20M? Didn't think so. 2. Delivering a couple Rokhs to a market is a lot faster & easier than hauling several gargantuan loads of trit and pye to several markets, especialy for a small industrial corp. Doubly so with freighter ganking going on. 3. Those ships may have been made in nosec, where trit goes for under 2 isk and pye under 6. The high ends are pretty affordable too. 4. Yeah, I feel bad for people who bought and researched tier3 battleship BPOs. That investment didn't pan out so hot. In summary, just because you can't figure out how someone has a competitive advantage doesn't mean there isn't one. I'm a big fan of volume, volume, volume. I'd rather move 10 units making 1M per rather than try to make 10M profit on a single unit that sits there depreciating. I'm also most likely one of the dumb builders you're talking about.
Thor Xian Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2007.03.31 21:07:00 - [12] Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. And what is the opportunity cost of doing business that way? _________________________ ~Thor Xian, Star Commander
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.03.31 22:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.03.31 22:30:00 - [14] Originally by: Thor Xian Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. And what is the opportunity cost of doing business that way? Uh... he has the opportunity of not getting an ulcer by not worrying about it? And btw, OP. Befuddles... Good word useage. I like seeing uncommon words like this. If you had worked tomfoolery or nincom****ery in there it would have gotten you tripple letter score. imo. And you never know how things get to market. Could be a corp thief making a quick buck. Er... isk. ------------------- Say What?
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.03.31 22:37:00 - [15] It is second hand ships. People are either stupid, or perhaps want a quick sale. Khaldari Research Services BPO Shop KPA Recruiting!
Kel Gunrunner Dark Destiny Inc. Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:43:00 - [16] Yeah they didnt nessisarily build it, i do that all the time if i just want rid of something, or if its insured rip its mods off n self destruct, although i havent done that in a while, but the hyperion doesnt realy impress me so that might get the self destruct treatment before its insurance runs out... <br> <br>
Liliane Woodhead	Posted - 2007.04.01 01:58:00 - [17] Every morning an idiot awakes. sometimes its a seller sometimes its a customer sometimes its me and the other day its you hmmm and in the case of eve and market ... i think its not only one idiot every morning
Grendelsbane	Posted - 2007.04.01 02:17:00 - [18] The supply and demand graph has 2 lines on it for a reason. It could easily be someone who wants that money right now, and having it now is worth the 20m hit to sell it at full market value but with the possibility of waiting. Do not confuse cost, price and value, as they are not the same things (and in the case of value, it varies from person to person for the same item).
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.04.01 02:26:00 - [19] Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though. lol The minerals i get are free, i pay nothing for them. My time isnt worth squat, they may be worth market value but to me they came for nothing. Its only daft if you are money motivated and actually care about making a profit on everything, Not everyone does. each to is own
Canine Fiend Minmatar Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.04.01 02:48:00 - [20] Originally by: Carter Burke Dumb builders. Perfect example: the Rokh battleship. Driving through Essence today, saw several priced at about 10% below build cost. I mean, WOW, that befuddles me. Here's someone who has already paid 1.3 Billion for a blueprint, who knows how much for mineral research, and is now selling units at a 20 million loss, each. It's like someone going into a 5/10 complex in an Atron. There simply isn't an explanation that I can imagine. I could see maybe one unit, if it'd been sitting on market for a while, and the owner wanted to clear inventory to make other stuff, but good lord . Needless to say, I bought several for redistribution. If he's going to save me the build time AND hand me an extra 10% margin, who am I to say no? CB You claim it makes you laugh, but I saw no evidence of laughter in this post. It seems like you are more angry then happy. I demand my time back. -------------------

Grox	Posted - 2007.04.01 03:42:00 - [21] he probably hit cap ship requirements and wants those things sold now . so he can go pick up his carrier or dread. and or like one post stated. u cant move ,,whats 10 rokhs trit amount?about 140 million trit? especialy if hes not right where u can sell 140 million trit lol. in the end u should thank the fact there are builders way larger than you and better skilled so costs less for them. he gave you a job basically transporting ships to sell for 10 perc of the profit. smart builder if you ask me.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.01 03:50:00 - [22] Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though. lol The minerals i get are free, i pay nothing for them. My time isnt worth squat, they may be worth market value but to me they came for nothing. Its only daft if you are money motivated and actually care about making a profit on everything, Not everyone does. each to is own WTS: Economics 101 textbook. --23 Member-- EVE-Trance Radio--The EVE Textboard
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.04.01 06:56:00 - [23] traders make the biggest money in the game miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.04.01 12:12:00 - [24] Edited by: Wild Rho on 01/04/2007 12:09:48 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though. lol The minerals i get are free, i pay nothing for them. My time isnt worth squat, they may be worth market value but to me they came for nothing. Its only daft if you are money motivated and actually care about making a profit on everything, Not everyone does. each to is own I'll take one last attempt at this. I say the thing's daft not because you're being complacent about making profit (I'm actually the same usually in that regard). I say it's daft because you are actively expending effort to lose yourself profit. Here's an attempt at a simple illustration. You mine yourself 100 units of trit and it's worth about 2isk per unit on the market. An item you want to produce needs that 100 trit so it's production cost is 200isk. This means if you sell at production cost you would make just as much isk by selling the minerals but without the effort of having to buy a bpo, possibly research it and then wait for the item to build. Now if you sell the item at say 190 isk (10 isk below production cost) you have spent time mining the minerals, spent isk buying the bpo, researching it and waiting on the build job all to lose 10 isk extra profit. You would have made more isk simply by selling the minerals on their own (making 200isk instead of 190isk). Even if you don't value your time you are still actively making more effort and investing more isk all in the name of costing yourself profit with no actual purpose. If you still haven't grasped the basic concept after this there isn't much more I can say so I'll just leave it at that.
mr bighelmet EnTech Pax Familia	Posted - 2007.04.01 14:56:00 - [25] Originally by: Carter Burke Dumb builders. Perfect example: the Rokh battleship. Driving through Essence today, saw several priced at about 10% below build cost. I mean, WOW, that befuddles me. Here's someone who has already paid 1.3 Billion for a blueprint, who knows how much for mineral research, and is now selling units at a 20 million loss, each. It's like someone going into a 5/10 complex in an Atron. There simply isn't an explanation that I can imagine. I could see maybe one unit, if it'd been sitting on market for a while, and the owner wanted to clear inventory to make other stuff, but good lord . Needless to say, I bought several for redistribution. If he's going to save me the build time AND hand me an extra 10% margin, who am I to say no? CB An item is only worth market price if u can sell it at market price. Trying to sell huge amount of minerals on the market is not easy, since there is only that much that people will buy so if ur looking at your stack of 200m trit 100m pyer and asorted other minerls and you know you will be producing those huge amounts every week, you know you got a problem you can either try to sell over a few weeks or sell it below market price (to other builders BTW) or u can say i'll use it to build something and then i'll sell that something for a total cost that will be bigger then what i can get from selling my minerals. Market price is not what you see in the top market, market price is what people can get for bulk amounts, and as someone who buy bulk i can tell you it's not close to market price. If i post something smart it represent my corp and alliance all other posts are my feeling/ideas only and do not represnt the rest
Celeste Coeval The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.04.01 15:43:00 - [26] Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though. Economists need to learn to subtract. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ isk doesnt necessarily = fun. If you want to lecture on economics do it in RL. My time in game is worth nothing as isk is a pointless commodity unless you sell it for RL money. I have as much fun in a t1 frig costing bugger all as I do in t2 cruiser. What an individual GAMERS time is worth is at the disgression of the GAMER. "If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor." -Albert Einstein Member of the [UTSFAH] corp.
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.04.02 11:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though. lol The minerals i get are free, i pay nothing for them. My time isnt worth squat, they may be worth market value but to me they came for nothing. Its only daft if you are money motivated and actually care about making a profit on everything, Not everyone does. each to is own WTS: Economics 101 textbook. WTS "How to get a life" book
Tom Shandy	Posted - 2007.04.02 11:49:00 - [28] Edited by: Tom Shandy on 02/04/2007 11:58:12 Edited by: Tom Shandy on 02/04/2007 11:55:59 Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 01/04/2007 12:09:48 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho Edited by: Wild Rho on 31/03/2007 22:26:34 Originally by: Tom Shandy Originally by: Wild Rho For some strange reason alot of builders still believe that mined minerals are "free" when building somthing. My time is worth nothing, therefor the minerals i mine are free. Time is only money, if you think that way. They aren't actually. The minerals and therefore your time is worth their market value. Let's put it another way. If you mine the minerals, build somthing and sell it below production cost becuase you see the minerals as "free" you are still losing isk (as in profit). Why? Becuase if you were to simply sell the minerals at the market prices you would make more isk from that than building the item and selling it for less than production cost. You are literally throwing away a portion of your profits for nothing regardless of how you value your time. Like I said, it doesn't really bother me since people who insist on doing so give me a nice steady supply of cheap and easy to obtain minerals from underpriced modules. I still think it's daft though. lol The minerals i get are free, i pay nothing for them. My time isnt worth squat, they may be worth market value but to me they came for nothing. Its only daft if you are money motivated and actually care about making a profit on everything, Not everyone does. each to is own I'll take one last attempt at this. I say the thing's daft not because you're being complacent about making profit (I'm actually the same usually in that regard). I say it's daft because you are actively expending effort to lose yourself profit. Here's an attempt at a simple illustration. You mine yourself 100 units of trit and it's worth about 2isk per unit on the market. An item you want to produce needs that 100 trit so it's production cost is 200isk. This means if you sell at production cost you would make just as much isk by selling the minerals but without the effort of having to buy a bpo, possibly research it and then wait for the item to build. Now if you sell the item at say 190 isk (10 isk below production cost) you have spent time mining the minerals, spent isk buying the bpo, researching it and waiting on the build job all to lose 10 isk extra profit. You would have made more isk simply by selling the minerals on their own (making 200isk instead of 190isk). Even if you don't value your time you are still actively making more effort and investing more isk all in the name of costing yourself profit with no actual purpose. If you still haven't grasped the basic concept after this there isn't much more I can say so I'll just leave it at that. Thats not even what im talking about. All i said was, my minerals come free, to which several people said they are not, rofl, pmsl, read economist books. when in fact i couldnt give a toss, if i say it came free then it came free, only on idiot would need to read a book to tell him otherwise. I pity these people who beleive everything written down in a book.
Wild Rho Amarr Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2007.04.02 12:08:00 - [29] I was talking about the perception of free minerals in regard to accounting for building costs when producing rather than simply mining minerals to sell them directly, and I think that's what a few of the other posters were as well. When mining minerals to sell directly on the market they are worth whatever you feel they're worth and so you're point is spot on, however it's a different situation to what the OP was talking about since he was referring to production.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2007.04.02 12:54:00 - [30] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 02/04/2007 12:51:53 If you want to make ISK in the 'game' then selling below build/mineral cost is just poor business. However lots of people enjoy the 'game' without needing to calculate every action as if it were a business (don't you get enough of that at work?). And good luck to them if they're having fun...Long may that continue. Being a bigot and turning to the forums for an ego-stroking about how much better you are at business (as in the OP) is even more 'dumb' since you don't see the people playing it as a 'game'. Get some perspective and see that as in life, not everyone plays the 'game' to win. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas

Pat Metheny	Posted - 2007.04.02 13:47:00 - [31] Sometimes I wonder if people remember that this is only a game. Time is money? lol This is a game.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.02 14:05:00 - [32] Edited by: Plutoinum on 02/04/2007 14:01:48 Originally by: Brutor Shaun Perhaps he's just out to **** someone off. I do it! I got a Stabber BPO, ME'd it, and now I build and sell them at a loss just to annoy the 1 isk undercutters. Eve is a game. I'll play it how I want. I don't care how much isk I've got in my wallet, so long as I've got enough to do what I want. I sell some tech-2 ammo and I like the 1-isk-undercutters more than the 100 isk undercutters. We don't want the customers believe that they can get the ammo any cheaper just because there is sometimes a bit more on the market than usually. I play the 1 isk game sometimes too. Then everyone sells their ammo while keeping the price at a 'reasonable' level. ___________ Muuuhhh !!!
Kalixa Hihro	Posted - 2007.04.02 15:01:00 - [33] Edited by: Kalixa Hihro on 02/04/2007 14:59:14 Originally by: Thor Xian Maybe he gets his minerals for free by mining them himself IMHO Time is not free, and minerals never are. If he is mining them himself and building something and selling it for less than the mineral cost, he's giving away his time at a discounted rate instead of his isk. I'm not sure which is worse. My game time is precious, I certainly don't want to spend it mining "free" veldspar so someone I don't know can have a cheaper ship. -Kal /----------------------------------------------------------------------------------/ My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong.
Arushia Nova Labs Empire Research	Posted - 2007.04.02 18:21:00 - [34] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 02/04/2007 12:51:53 If you want to make ISK in the 'game' then selling below build/mineral cost is just poor business. However lots of people enjoy the 'game' without needing to calculate every action as if it were a business (don't you get enough of that at work?). And good luck to them if they're having fun...Long may that continue. If you're goign to play the game as a manufacturer, you really should be willing to calculate build costs, there's even tools like eve-meep and mlcalc that will do the number-crunching for you. Going back to the OP, if it wasn't a bulk order (>1) it was probably someone desperate to unload a used ship. Empire Research and Nova Labs


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