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An idea to defeat macro miners

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Valhallas	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:31:00 - [1] Ever noticed that when you set up a Hotmail account it asks you to type the characters that you see in a small box. The box is a little picture with numbers and letters arranged in a way that a computer program is unable to read. (If you don't know what I mean go and try it, you only need to go as far as the first screen). The whole point of this is to avoid robots setting up mass email accounts. Anyway, on activation of mining lasers, you would be contacted by the faction that rules the system you are in, and asked to buy a mining license for a small fee, 1000 ISK for example. As part of the process to get the license you would need to do the same thing you do to set up a hotmail account and type the characters that you see in the box, this would give you a 60 or 90 minute mining license. When this expires, you would need to do the same thing again to continue mining, or get a good kicking off the local faction navy. You would need to have a 10 minute grace period to allow you to buy the new license before you get nuked. After all it seems VERY generous of all the factions in EVE to let us mine thier systems for free. That would never happen in the real world!!!
Reebo77 eXe.	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:37:00 - [2] omg this all makes sence... i love you!
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:38:00 - [3] So your solution is to make a boring and repetitive job that already sucks even more annoying for the legit users. Whereas any decent macroer can write a script to get around any check(including captchas)? The solution to (macro) mining isn't to make it harder but to make so one doesn't need to macro it. Think of a solution that fits those terms.
Enaria Ferenic Amarr Ordo Ministorum	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:38:00 - [4] Interesting idea, this security function is used to stop mail bot programes from spamming E-mail/blogs/forums etc...might be able to work in EVE, anybody else here think this is a good idea/might work etc...?
Tekor	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Dr Slurm So your solution is to make a boring and repetitive job that already sucks even more annoying for the legit users. Whereas any decent macroer can write a script to get around any check(including captchas)? The solution to (macro) mining isn't to make it harder but to make so one doesn't need to macro it. Think of a solution that fits those terms. We are talking here of once in like 30-90 minutes... come on can it be that annoying to enter a couple of characters... Also about writing scripts, some captchas are uber hard to read so aint a prob
Onchas Erivvia The Andromeda Directorate SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:50:00 - [6] Edited by: Onchas Erivvia on 01/04/2007 16:53:08 Edited by: Onchas Erivvia on 01/04/2007 16:50:35 You know, if everyone who saw a macro-miner just put a 1 mil isk bounty on them, the whole problem would go away. Yeah, some would kill themselves just to get the bounty, but eventually they'd start to make it worthwhile for poorer players to hunt. Alternatively, people willing to take a sec-hit and with extra cash could deal with 'em - a SmartBombed Domi with insurance does wonders on a Hulk, without THAT much of a money hit. We as a community can get rid of Macro miners, it just depends on how much isk we (pl) are prepared to spend to do it. And yes, I know these aren't ideal solutions. But people belly ache so much it makes it sound like we're completely powerless to do anything about it. It's too bad though that the guy who started privateers didn't throw that isk at getting people kitted out in insured Domi's to go hunt macro miners. Maybe not as much fun, but a valuable service to the community nonetheless. ------------------------------------------ 'Teh Onchinator' Personal Assistant to MrsPitman
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:52:00 - [7] Yes it would be way annoying. Especially when your asked for the 100th or 1000th time. How about we add a captcha for everyone each time you undock. After all your suggestion is exactly the same, just this way it affects EVERY player and not just us miners.
T'Laar Bok Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.04.01 16:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Valhallas Ever noticed that when you set up a Hotmail account it asks you to type the characters that you see in a small box. The box is a little picture with numbers and letters arranged in a way that a computer program is unable to read. Its called CAPTCHA and its sucsess at foiling automated techniques is as little as 7%.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:31:00 - [9] Plus there is always someone NEAR the keyboard, just not pressing the keys. It would do nothing but irritate legitimate miners and cause some of them to quit hence increasing the demand for ore, hence making macro-ing more profitable. In short you would be contributing to the problem as Macro-ers don't care about a little inconvinience but players who just want to relax do and won't tolerate it. Its CCP's job to come up with a solution when they think the issue is bad enough. So far they haven't found one that doesn't hurt legitimate players. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
1of20	Posted - 2007.04.01 17:37:00 - [10] Edited by: 1of20 on 01/04/2007 17:35:32 This is an absolutely WONDERFUL idea! However, it should be explanded to other 'bot'-abused activities and should be done every 15-30 minutes. 60-90 is too long.. examples: Sitting in space for long periods of time doing nothing but chatting(bot-spamming in Jita) in local. same as above except sitting in Station. parked outside a gate waiting for the gate activation sound. camped at a Complex waiting for respawn. not time-based but still an excellent addition: every other gate in an autopilot thread of 5 or more gates.
Laramon Questor Minmatar Knights of the Silver Dawn	Posted - 2007.04.01 18:53:00 - [11] Originally by: Dr Slurm So your solution is to make a boring and repetitive job that already sucks even more annoying for the legit users. Whereas any decent macroer can write a script to get around any check(including captchas)? The solution to (macro) mining isn't to make it harder but to make so one doesn't need to macro it. Think of a solution that fits those terms. So by this logic, all we have to do to win the war on drugs is make it so that people don't need to use it? Same scope, same magnitude, different problem. Even after failure, there can be redemption.
Anna Grahm Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.01 18:55:00 - [12] DIAF I am NOT an alt!
Elgar Lightfoot Lightfoot Industries	Posted - 2007.04.01 19:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Laramon Questor Originally by: Dr Slurm So your solution is to make a boring and repetitive job that already sucks even more annoying for the legit users. Whereas any decent macroer can write a script to get around any check(including captchas)? The solution to (macro) mining isn't to make it harder but to make so one doesn't need to macro it. Think of a solution that fits those terms. So by this logic, all we have to do to win the war on drugs is make it so that people don't need to use it? Same scope, same magnitude, different problem. Actually yes. Drugs are used to escape from reality and the life of today. If people didn't want to escape there would be no desire to take the drugs. Even then The drugs are not the problem, it's the underground, addictiveness and contaminants in the dugs thats the problem.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.04.01 19:55:00 - [14] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 01/04/2007 19:54:04 Originally by: Laramon Questor So by this logic, all we have to do to win the war on drugs is make it so that people don't need to use it? Same scope, same magnitude, different problem. There is one sure way to win the war on drugs: make them all legal. Unless you actually have problems with adults deciding what they want to do with their lives, and not with the criminality and violence that comes from prohibitionism. [And the increased health risks that come from contamination and illegality] Its actually a good example, sadly off topic. But i can assure you, there are exactly 3 ways to make ISK farmers go away: 1. CCP opens up evebay 2. CCP removes the ISK grind and seeds everything on market for 100 ISK like on TEST 3. CCP conquers the world and enforces a brutal regime that controlls everday life of every human (with computer access) on earth. As for the topic: fails, because if real players can do it, organised, educated, payed professionals who are earning their living with that can do it better.
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.04.01 21:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Plus there is always someone NEAR the keyboard, just not pressing the keys. It would do nothing but irritate legitimate miners and cause some of them to quit hence increasing the demand for ore, hence making macro-ing more profitable. In short you would be contributing to the problem as Macro-ers don't care about a little inconvinience but players who just want to relax do and won't tolerate it. Its CCP's job to come up with a solution when they think the issue is bad enough. So far they haven't found one that doesn't hurt legitimate players. there is no such idea that wont "hurt" legitimate players, obviously whatever is done has to affect all players, else ccp would just be able to ban the macro-ers if they already knew who they were !! miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Saibotek	Posted - 2007.04.01 22:18:00 - [16] Originally by: Elgar Lightfoot Originally by: Laramon Questor Originally by: Dr Slurm So your solution is to make a boring and repetitive job that already sucks even more annoying for the legit users. Whereas any decent macroer can write a script to get around any check(including captchas)? The solution to (macro) mining isn't to make it harder but to make so one doesn't need to macro it. Think of a solution that fits those terms. So by this logic, all we have to do to win the war on drugs is make it so that people don't need to use it? Same scope, same magnitude, different problem. Actually yes. Drugs are used to escape from reality and the life of today. If people didn't want to escape there would be no desire to take the drugs. Even then The drugs are not the problem, it's the underground, addictiveness and contaminants in the dugs thats the problem. Replace the word Drugs with word EVE and my wife thinks your on to something here
Big Al Ki Shoda	Posted - 2007.04.01 22:24:00 - [17] Macrominers in a category by themselves, are not the problem. Mining is incredibly boring, I wouldn't blame legit miners (aka, those are not selling minerals to get isk to sell for real life cash(tm)) for using them. Sure, it's against the EULA - but come on, mining sucks. The problem stems from the farmers (who are macroing). The problem extends to mission running, plexes, and 0.0 ratting as well. What isthere to do about it? Well, CCP could ***** down on isk sales, but then you take a gander at the sell forums and CCP apparently openly encourages the exchange of isk for cash. Obviously on these non-CCP endorsed transactions, they don't get a cut of the action - so you would think that they might be willing to do something. This is just not the case however. The problem gets worse every day, in the end the only solution is for people to stop buying isk (at least from people who aren't CCP). So in summary, stop buying isk and the problem will go away. If there wasn't a market for it there wouldn't be 100 ravens named fkjowrjkkwld in the great wildlands or 100 mackinaws in osmon named sedjwidkf.
Lithalnas Amarr Hadean Drive Yards Archaean Cooperative	Posted - 2007.04.01 22:31:00 - [18] Use the ban stick liberally? I see blizzard announcements in the gaming news sites of them banning macros/gold sellers, eve should do the same and announce it publicly. ------------- Hadean Drive Yards The EvE inflation, 80 Macro miners, 1.5b isk/day
Trivas ClanKillers Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2007.04.01 22:34:00 - [19] Lots of ISK selling cartels are just a bunch of guys in 3rd world countries who can actually make a living selling the ISK on ebay or whereever and just sitting and mining all day long. Your solution probably would not get rid of those types. They are the main problem, as account and other types of theft occur that way.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.04.01 22:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Galk on 01/04/2007 22:54:34 Originally by: Lithalnas Use the ban stick liberally? I see blizzard announcements in the gaming news sites of them banning macros/gold sellers, eve should do the same and announce it publicly. Blizzard can use that ban stick as liberally as they do.. 10 million subs.. eve alledged number totals 200k something... On the line.... BUT as it was in print from ouver himself.... he seemed to bemoan the fact (cost to them wise) they/ccp were forced into banning a large number of accounts in a particular month in the fall of last year. While that is an indication of willingness on ccp's part to exclude users who get caught out breaking the eula, youre probaly right in saying it's not on a par with what blizzard do... one possible reason maybe. Mixed feelings realy from me.... i don't exactly like the way blizzard do that, ccp did that also, id probaly hate them even more than i currently do (if that were somehow possible) I certainly don't favour it when allegations made by players could/would dirrectly influence gm decisions on user exclusions.... which is how it would largely pan out:/ ______
Daenethx Gallente Fallen Angel's Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.02 01:25:00 - [21] I remember a game i once played, a random bot would come upto and ask you a simple math question. If you get it wrong you get killed or something... =]
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.02 01:36:00 - [22] I support this idea, but only with full implementation. This shouldn't be narrowed to the activation of mining lasers, it should be expanded to include activation of all modules. Want to Doomsday? ENTER THE CODE! Want to fire on that ship? ENTER THE CODE! Want to jump through that gate? ENTER THE CODE! Drug abuse doesn't go away by threatening drug users, you deal with the source of the drugs. OP, terrible idea. Understand cause and effect before proposing solutions. If you can't figure out how to do it, then its time for you to quit Eve and run for public office. So says me.
1of20	Posted - 2007.04.02 20:34:00 - [23] Originally by: Curzon Dax Want to fire on that ship? ENTER THE CODE! Agreed! And it should be per module clicked even if all are firing on the same ship.
Profhet Murder of Crows E N I G M A	Posted - 2007.04.02 21:17:00 - [24] well, if it can be macroed easily then it probably isnt a good suggestion, I had no clue you could script to read those codes. What is being worked towards by CCP is making the belts a part of exploration, so that may take care of the macro/bot users, if it doesn't, the suggestion to have a bot roll up on your barge and ask a simple question seems very good as long as it keeps the lag down. This could be the first step, then if the answer is wrong, CCP could start to thoroughly investigate. ____________________________ FEED ON THE DYING
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Laramon Questor So by this logic, all we have to do to win the war on drugs is make it so that people don't need to use it? Same scope, same magnitude, different problem. Actually, that's correct. To win the war on drugs you would have to make it so people don't need to use it. Otherwise, you'll never win. That's why IRL we aren't winning the war on drugs. Macro-mining strikes me as a similar problem too. The only viable solution is to make it so that macro-mining is no longer necessary or profitable. Other than that, you're better off just tolerating it (just like drugs in real life). Anywho, as long as any solution to the macro-mining problem doesn't hurt legit miners more, then I'll be content.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:15:00 - [26] Adding the belts to exploration isn't going to help, all it will do is hurt legitimate miners (again). Reason? Simple: skills and probes. Right now the mining barges can't mount a scan probe launcher and more than one strip miner. Even a mid-slot module specifically for some type of exploration module wouldn't be well recieved as barges have ONE mid-slot. Plus we have all seen how well exploration works Want to kill macros? I'll list what has to be done again: 1) Remove the "Give ISK" button 2) Remove GTCs 3) FLag all cans so that concord intervenes if they are "stolen" from. 4) Disallow any trading of items between players, even in the same corp. 5) Remove all private contracts. 6) Force minimum sale prices for all items, regardless of market. Even with the above there are plenty of holes. But none of us would play in a game with draconian rules like the above. Hence Macros are here and here to stay. <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Lemen Meringue Cult of Lemen	Posted - 2007.04.02 22:27:00 - [27] Defeat the macro miners by mining trit yourself and selling way below market value! Drive the price down and they'll leave! That's the ticket.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.04.02 23:04:00 - [28] Why is it that the player-proposed methods of fighting macro miners always seem to be worse than the problem itself?
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.02 23:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Ilvan Why is it that the player-proposed methods of fighting macro miners always seem to be worse than the problem itself? Because most of them aren't being proposed by miners and are actually vieled attempts to get mining out of the game so that they have more combat players to shoot at? <-----------> Keiron: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=427556&page=2 PvE and/or PvP is not something that appeals to the entire player base
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2007.04.03 00:00:00 - [30] Quote: I remember a game i once played, a random bot would come upto and ask you a simple math question. If you get it wrong you get killed or something... =] Lol, I like this idea, maybe it would finally do something about assinine afk cloakers too. But, make it a Space Whale, of course.

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