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DrunkenNinja
Men Of Mayham
4
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
And when I say progression based, I mean, you spend X hours doing something, gain in game resources, and this helps you in later situations (mmorpgs like WoW are heavily progression based).
Do the successful alliances and players in this game simply put in huge amounts of time and effort?
Or are they in fact much more skilled than the lesser groups/players?
In real life, if you are good at something (whether it be skill as a painter/musician/whatever) you can get somewhere.
Is this the same as in EVE? Or is EVE more of a pen and paper style "roleplay, grind and progress" game.
Reducing this to its base level, is the combat in EVE skill based or progression based? Progression based. Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit, does it?
Your thoughts? |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
139
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Solo/Small gang is heavily skill based.
Fleet is progression based.
And by skill I mean player skill not SP
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
Zach Donnell
Ghost-Busters
3
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
As fleet count goes up, the importance of individual skill goes down. This is very simple, and how *most* of eve pvp works.
Consequently why a few of us crazies prefer solo/very small gang  |
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
137
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Posted - 2011.12.24 11:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
Being good at the game is skill based. Achieving anything in the game is progression based.
[img]http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sig.php?r=*rnd*[/img]
Desusigs can be seen on the terribad new forums using bbcode enabling script (scroll down to my post for sig rotation) |
Gripen
418
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 12:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
There is some skill involved in flying logistic ships, EW ships and interdictors as they are usually pick their target by themselves but otherwise - no. For gang leaders and solo pilots skill required for choosing fights and advantageous positions pre fight but once shooting starts it's all about mechanical actions.
It's sad to see that nothing is being done to increase personal skill requirements in EVE combat model. It looks especially weird when CCP Soundwave, chief game designer (iirc), is a big fan of Dota-like game. |
Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
35
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Crumplecorn wrote:Being good at the game is skill based. Achieving anything in the game is progression based.
I was going to say something similar, it takes knowledge and intelligence to make good decisions, it usually takes skills and isk to follow them through.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
Long John Silver
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:09:00 -
[7] - Quote
If I recall correctly, back in 2003 your skills did improve the more you used them. eg: Use medium artillery weps a lot, and your medium projectile wep skill slowly increased.
I think it was one of the first things to get hit with the nerf bat though.
Long John Silver | Pirate Alt-áand Forum Troll. |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
251
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
eve is very very skill based. Think about it, in most cases, in the end, your ship will only ever be 25% better than a new player.
And that's assuming you're all at level 5 everything and they are level 1.
So think about that for a moment. Other than money, which is the real drive in eve, skills only unlock equipment. You're going to win a fight you would of lost magically by gaining a 5% increase in rof. Seriously.
I'd say the issue is the game itself is not explained correctly to new players. Eve is so different it needs a real new game expreince |
Valei Khurelem
Viziam
Amarr Empire
21
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
I don't get why people can't understand this, he isn't talking about those skills you train as in LEVELS he's talking about things like on FPS' where you actually have to aim in order to fire at something or in puzzles you have to figure out the right pattern to get past a certain point in the game or how you have to jump over a flaming pit to get out of an area.
There's none of this in MMORPGs generally, it's too damn easy, too damn tedious, bloody hell I find MMORPG players ridiculous sometimes.
Anyone who actually defend this kind of system saying it require you to be 'skillful' either hasn't played any other games or just simply doesn't know what they're talking about, I wish game developers had never hijacked the word 'skill' and stuck with levels because we've got idiots now who can't understand what it means.
SKILLS ARE LEVELS NOT AN ACTUAL MEASURE OF A PLAYERS SKILL IN PERFORMING AN ACTION WITHIN THE GAME. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
392
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
DrunkenNinja wrote:And when I say progression based, I mean, you spend X hours doing something, gain in game resources, and this helps you in later situations (mmorpgs like WoW are heavily progression based).
Do the successful alliances and players in this game simply put in huge amounts of time and effort?
Or are they in fact much more skilled than the lesser groups/players?
In real life, if you are good at something (whether it be skill as a painter/musician/whatever) you can get somewhere.
Is this the same as in EVE? Or is EVE more of a pen and paper style "roleplay, grind and progress" game.
Reducing this to its base level, is the combat in EVE skill based or progression based? Progression based. Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit, does it?
Your thoughts?
Check out some of Kil2's combat videos with explanations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfovPbZQhBk
You'll see its very much about pilot skill and knowing which modules to activate when, and doing a lot more piloting than clicking orbit.
This is my signature.-á There are many others like it, but this one is mine. |
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Professor Alphane
Alphane Research Co-operative
35
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Posted - 2011.12.24 12:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
MotherMoon wrote: your ship will only ever be 25% better than a new player.
I'd say this is a fallacy. A lot of bonuses are cumalitive.
As an extreme example consider drones.
Lvl 1 drones
vs
Lvl 5 drones
Lvl 5 heavy drones
Lvl 5 Drone durabilty
plus others
Theres rarely if ever only one skill that effects something and better skills mean you can use better T2 gear increasing gain further.
YOU MUST THINK FIRST.... |
NickyYo
StarHug
Brotherhood of Starbridge
31
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
EVE is:
*The older the character the better you are
*If you play longer you are better.
*Massive amounts of grinding to get anywhere.
Everyone i spoke to who used to play eve says its the most grinding game they have ever played.
Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ? |
Mirima Thurander
Sarajevo Syndicate
True Reign
125
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:EVE is:
*The older the character the better you are
*If you play longer you are better.
*Massive amounts of grinding to get anywhere.
Everyone i spoke to who used to play eve says its the most grinding game they have ever played.
Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?
LuLz 1.1B is easy
I love the the smell of victory in the morning. It smells like... Blood, vomit and burning flesh.
I Like You. I'll Kill You Last. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
256
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
DrunkenNinja wrote:And when I say progression based, I mean, you spend X hours doing something, gain in game resources,
Stop mining and do something else? |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
256
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 14:27:00 -
[15] - Quote
NickyYo wrote:
Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?
Lol if I put in a 6 hour "day" I make a billion. Most of my time, however, is spent "spending" that billion. Right now I have a small capital fleet roaming null sec. If/when it gets destroyed, I'll have to "grind" again to replace the ships and implants. So what? I'm guaranteed fun for a few weeks at the moment, I'll willingly put in 18 hours of "grind". |
NickyYo
StarHug
Brotherhood of Starbridge
31
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:40:00 -
[16] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:NickyYo wrote:
Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?
Lol if I put in a 6 hour "day" I make a billion. Most of my time, however, is spent "spending" that billion. Right now I have a small capital fleet roaming null sec. If/when it gets destroyed, I'll have to "grind" again to replace the ships and implants. So what? I'm guaranteed fun for a few weeks at the moment, I'll willingly put in 18 hours of "grind".
Do you have a job? or a life even? or just retired? |
KaarBaak
155
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Eve skills are gained by keeping your skill queue active. Gaming skills are gained by playing more and learning all of the necessary tactics and strategies to be successful. There is no Eve skill that tells you how to tackle and hold a target. No Eve skill that tells you how to approach a target without presenting yourself as a target. There's no Eve skill that tells you how a single CovOps ship can accomplish the same thing as a 100-man fleet. No Eve skill that tells you that your well-manned 25-ship fleet can take on a 75-man fleet of isk-rich CTA fleeters.
The forums are rife with guides and how-to's. There are corps and alliances that exist almost purely to develop those gaming skills and strategies.
Eve skills are the eggs, flour and sugar. If you want to make a pastry, you have to learn the right mixture and how to bake.
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Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
Care Factor
43
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Posted - 2011.12.24 14:51:00 -
[18] - Quote
Eve has a great deal of PLAYER skill involved. Even to be a damn tackler and do it properly you need some knowledge of how to, when, and what to fit. You fit the wrong mod, you don't act fast enough or too fast - you'r toast. Example:
You'r a 1m sp toon with a rifter and only t1 mods. You got it from your friends, fitted properly and to the utmost of your t1 capable skills (to avoid another variable). And you go to a gate with them (lets say low sec). You are hunting for pirates with them. You jump from system to system with them untill you find a potential pirate. You got to know the GATE GUN mechanic to avoid being alphad by them. You need to go close enough without a mwd and not straight-on so the bs sized pirate does not kill you with his huge guns. You got to loop, not punch the mwd too fast so that your sig isn't increased while you'r still far away. You come close to the flagged bs tanking the gate guns right after he dealed with some random stranger, now he's smacktalking. You know you can shoot since he's got negative SS (Very negative) and a CC. You have to know what they are. You approach (lets say succesfully), disrupt him. He still has aggro so your friends warp in, they gangbang him from all sides. You get a juicy kill mail thanks to your awesome action, and it doesn't matter you lost your rifter, they will supply a new one Thanks to your awesome knowledge of all the mechanic and good comunication and proper approach you cost him 500m isk of losses since he had faction weapons.
Now, that scenario naturally is quite surreal and making it simple, I know, but even in this simplified scenario there was at least a dozen things you could have screwed up and thus not hold the enemy long enough and die a miserable death. The situations:
1. Too far away warpin - you die if you don't warp away since his guns will hit you.
2. Too close warpin - he'll web you and kill you.
3. Hitting the mwd/ab too fast , making your sig bigger and thus letting him kill you.
4. Not hitting the warp scrambler fast enough - he warps away.
5. Hitting the warp scrambler too early - he'll know what's coming and he'll jump since he won't aggro you.
6. Hitting the mwd/ab too late - he'll warp off.
7. You told your friends to jump/warp too early and he noticed, deagressed and ran.
8. You told your friends too late - he killed you and warpped off.
Those are just the main PLAYER SKILL things you could have screwed up with this simplified scenario... In a less positive scenario you could have been:
9. Killed by gate guns.
10. Killed by his gang you didn't take into account since they seemed neut alts.
11. And worst of all - because you screwed with intel or aggro mechanics - getting your friends pointlessly killed by his gang or gate guns or both just because you didn't know how it all worked.
Something that could have been an easy solo catch ended as a blood bath because YOU didn't have the PLAYER SKILL.
That's just one example of how player skill is relevant, and that's a VERY simple one. It gets harder with bigger ships / role ships / logistics / etc.
And it's not about the grind, ask your high-sp and rich friends for simple ships, if they are not jerks, they WILL help and find something you can pilot after a week in eve and take you into awesome, thrilling pvp.
"Have you had your morning coffee?" -> the Coffee Lovers Brewing Club is recruiting! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=363976#post363976 |
NickyYo
StarHug
Brotherhood of Starbridge
31
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Your all a little delusional if youi ask me.
Ok you can train skills on time based but you cannot put them to use without grinding for isk.
So yes EVE is a game about grinding. |
Tallianna Avenkarde
Beasts of Burden
140
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 15:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
So there is NO player skill in maintaining range, transversal, correct overheat, slingshot manuevers, applying and holding effective tackle, knowing when to switch targets when to overheat, when to change ammo types, how to manage cap effectively, and when to GTFO?
Nope no player skill at all its just CTRL + Left Click, F1, F2, F3...
And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell. |
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Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar
Rolling Thunder.
25
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gice me a smart skilful 3 mil sp corpie over a 30 mil sp idiot antday of the week. I have seen my share of both. |
MadMuppet
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
DrunkenNinja wrote:
Reducing this to its base level, is the combat in EVE skill based or progression based? Progression based. Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit, does it?
Your thoughts?
It takes personal experience and a knowledge of tactics you must acquire 'outside' the limits of the game's stats sytems to play well. What EVE lacks is an ability for you as a player to show your friend a 'stat' that says how great your are. All you can really do is point to your Skill Point tally and say I am 'this' old. All other stats can be rigged or bought. There is no real measure of how good a player is in EVE until you challenge them and that is an alien concept for most gamers looking in from the outside.
In a game like WoW you have your busty toon in super skimpy, therefore better, purple stat armor. You have reputation scores, honor point scores, toys you can only get for events, a set of currency scores, a resilience score, etc, etc, etc... You can far more clearly tell what you are up against.
A carebear might wait a year before getting in to a powerful battleship and trying out PVP, that doesn't mean however when they finally do they are going to be better than someone else. They might find themselves suddenly scrammed by a frigate (piloted by someone with far fewer skil points) and unable to run because of bad planning and tactics. The BS pilot can't just click his way to freedom, he has to suffer from his 'personal' lack of skills, the game isn't going to give it to him.
TLDR - All MMO models have an inherent framework that is similar, something like an 8x grid for example. Most are like checkers, you can look at the board and see how the game is going to play out from the outside. Eve is like chess, unless you know the game and can plan in your head, you are not going to get the big picture and most likely fail.
Yes, I only have a Vigil, I've had a bad bit of luck Ok? |
gfldex
77
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:12:00 -
[23] - Quote
Be the FC for a few days and you will realise fairly quickly that there are plenty of players that lack even the most basic abilities.
to name a few:
- wrong alignments
- lemmings
- i-going-afk-for-a-second
- why is the 3rd target taking damage already?
- there are 15 ppl in that system but non of you got a mic or what?
- I still need a scout and I'm not going to ask again
- This is a turd fleet. What is that apoc for? (that guy died to that POS btw.)
Merry crisis and a happy new fear! |
Joe Skellington
Scientific Nano Technologies Institute
BLACK-MARK
34
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Zach Donnell wrote:As fleet count goes up, the importance of individual skill goes down. This is very simple, and how *most* of eve pvp works. Consequently why a few of us crazies prefer solo/very small gang
And get gang raped :(
-á-á |\_/|-á
-á/ @ @ \ -á-á
-á( > -¦ < )-á
-á`-+-+x-½-½-¦
-á-á / O \ |
Flakey Foont
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2011.12.24 15:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:So there is NO player skill in maintaining range, transversal, correct overheat, slingshot manuevers, applying and holding effective tackle, knowing when to switch targets when to overheat, when to change ammo types, how to manage cap effectively, and when to GTFO?
Nope no player skill at all its just CTRL + Left Click, F1, F2, F3...
This. All the level 5s in the world won't help if you have no skill.
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Avensys
United Highsec Front
The 99 Percent
1
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Posted - 2011.12.24 16:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
some hints:
Social V doesn't make you a better teamplayer.
Diplomacy V doesn't increase your diplomatic skills.
Fleet Command V doesn't make you a good FC.
You may argue that large-scale fleet combat is not skill-based - well, except for the FC, the tacklers, the scouts, the groups which don't follow FC orders (logistics, anti-tackle, ECM), the capital FC, ...
But no in-game-skill helps with getting those 200 people to actually show up for your op (or with getting them to join your corp/alliance in the first place for that matter, or with setting up the necessary IT infrastructure, or with making friends & allies, ...). |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
590
|
Posted - 2011.12.24 16:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:Reducing this to its base level, is the combat in EVE skill based or progression based? Progression based. Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit, does it?
Your thoughts?
It's a fair question, and deserves a fair answer.
Depending on the situation, combat in EVE depends on both to a degree... but most heavily on actual player skills rather than levels.
As a wise man once said, it's easy to find the people who think that it "Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit". You'll find them conveniently listed together in the "victim" column of any kill board.
Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Pawnee
hirr
Against ALL Authorities
5
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Posted - 2011.12.24 16:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
I say, it is totally progression based. You have to play this game intensive for a certain time at least to have a chance at all. You have to become experienced.
I always say to clarify, what I mean: You do not need to be a rocket scientist in RL to fly an internet space ship in Eve like a pr0. This is intended by CCP. Otherwise the game would suck as massive multiplayer game.
Would you write in your CV "pvp pr0 in Eve Online" . No? Why? because ... |
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
157
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Posted - 2011.12.24 17:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:Solo/Small gang is heavily skill based.
Fleet is progression based.
And by skill I mean player skill not SP
depend on ship you use in solo PvP
Only skill you use really is just danger awareness, what engage and what not.
There are some ships which indeed require a lot of skill to fly properly .. ehm vagabond..
And then there are some which are quite easier .. ishtar
At the chosen engagement, its always more skill based if you are on the receiving part, alas you fight on term of condition of other party.
PS. Know how is not even half of the success.. You need to actually play it to get it right. |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
10
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Posted - 2011.12.24 17:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kind of a word game you got here, but as far as "progression" as it is defined in other MMOs, for example Raid Progression in WOW, EVE is just not that at all.
Not even close, thank god!
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