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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:28:00 -
[1]
The arguments AGAINST allowing skill switching from anywhere but from inside the game always seem to be "because we want you to play the game not only switch skills" on one hand, and "because it would lead to character farming".
Well, first off, if somebody wants to ONLY login to switch a skill, trust me, that person WILL only switch a skill then logout, MOST of the time anyway.
The only thing you solve with that is make it harder for him to switch the skill (and limit locations from where he can switch the skills to machines with the EVE client installed).
The other issue, char farming... well, have you noticed how it's NOT at all profitable to sell characters ?
I mean, from a purely ISK invested vs ISK obtainable perspective.
The only way it can become profitable to "farm" characters is to actually login to them and either mine or run missions with them while they "skill up"... so you can switch skills then and there anyway.
So that argument falls short too.
On the flipside, legitimate users with legitimate accounts can't access the actual game whenever their skill would finish, for various reasons... be it because they don't have the EVE client installed where they are right now (like, AT WORK, for instance)... or because TQ is down (like now).
At the same time, I notice the XML data from the "My Character" page works just fine, so one could argue IF one could view the current skill in training, one should also be able to change it (or set a new one if none is training) right there where you can see them.
If you're so afraid of people "abusing" this feature, you could just as well make it so that you have to also enter a "captcha" code (like the one you already have for trial account code request) so that it can't be (easily) abused in any way (not that it WOULD make a difference if anybody WOULD abuse it in the first place, but meh).
So, really, what's the reason web-based "My Character" skill switch isn't available ?
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
bunnybank
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:31:00 -
[2]
Simpler solution, ability to queue a skill to start after one has finished?
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Marquis Dean
The Last Thing You'll Ever See
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:32:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: bunnybank
Simpler solution, ability to queue a skill to start after one has finished?
/signed. I'm going away for 4 months soon, and I don't want to lose the several million skillpoints I would have otherwise gained.
---
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait
will explain when i have the time i promise
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TwIsTeDSoLdIeR
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:33:00 -
[4]
Originally by: bunnybank
Simpler solution, ability to queue a skill to start after one has finished?
i believe that may be coming soon as its been discussed b4 but dont quote me on it
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Rhaegor Stormborn
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:36:00 -
[5]
Allow us to queue ONE skill and so many people would be happy. I just finished training a skill, and I am at work, I will log in at work and risk getting fired (or at least getting yelled at) if I was caught with this game on my computer, let alone playing it during business hours, but I must as I can't imagine not letting my skills train for another 5 hours or so. So, I went to go log in right now, and the server is down! Really need a one skill queue.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:39:00 -
[6]
Originally by: bunnybank
Simpler solution, ability to queue a skill to start after one has finished?
Well, that would (probably) require a wee bit more coding, especially checking wether the account is still active or not (oh well, that code should already exist, it's done on the China server anyway), and adding database fields for queued "slots" (to be honest, not such a huge coding problem anyway, I guess).
A queue would be nice indeed, but meanwhile, ability to switch character skill in training from the "My Character" page would be even nicer, as you would only require a PC able to browse the web. Other than that, you only need the same thing you need from a machine able to run EVE (and with EVE installed): your username and password.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Ionia
Advanced Manufacturing
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:43:00 -
[7]
totally impractical. when they take eve down its usually to work on the database, which is also where your skill training is stored. the reason they take it down is because trying to fix things while the database is in use is a recipe for disaster
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:50:00 -
[8]
The skill table is at least mirrored on the server that, eumh, "serves" the "MyCharacter" XMLs, that one you can agree on, no ?
It used to be that implant data was ALSO mirrored here (lately, no implant data is included in the XMLs anymore).
So would it be so HARD to have JUST the web frontend holding the training data WHILE EVE/TQ is down, and reinsert it into TQ once servers come back up ?
Whenever the servers come up, they acquire the changed data (during TQ DT) from the web frontend.
When TQ is down or when char is NOT logged into EVE, then web skillswitch would be available.
As for the rest, whenever char is logged into EVE, the web skillswitch is unavailable.
This solves pretty much any possible problem.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Reverend Revelator
Elite Storm Enterprises
Storm Armada
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:53:00 -
[9]
Way for CCP to make mo' money: Allow to switch skills via mobile phone and/or web for 50 eurocent per switch.
-- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love -- |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.03 17:54:00 -
[10]
I'd pay 25 eurocents or so without even blinking 
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Wyehr
Shadow Of The Light
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.04.03 18:07:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ionia
totally impractical. when they take eve down its usually to work on the database, which is also where your skill training is stored. the reason they take it down is because trying to fix things while the database is in use is a recipe for disaster
I don't think the skill training system works the way you think it works. Consider:
If you get podded with implants, you keep training at the same (implanted) rate until a training switch happens.
If you finish a skill while logged out, the skill finishes as you log in.
The XML feed does not update while you train, it only updates when a training switch happens.
From this, it should be pretty clear that the skill in training is tracked with little more than a timestamp to mark the start of the training and the number of skill points earned per second. It isn't like there is a process updating hundreds of thousands of records in the database every second.
Also, the skill and training information is already cached for the website to use while the database server is unavailable.
If I were being paid to set up web access to something like that, I would just make a journal table fed by the webserver, read by the skillpoint database, and emptied by the cache generating process. At any given time, your skill points can be calculated exactly by looking at the last cached data and replaying anything in the journal.
Next step is to add a lock table. When the EVE client establishes an interactive session, set the lock and then force it to clear the journal for that account. The lock would be set every few minutes as long as the client stays connected, and expire if not refreshed for several minutes. The webserver would then just refuse to add new journal entries for accounts with the flag asserted.
There we go, the design side of things are done, maybe 20 minutes of work in PHP to implement it, can't be more than a few days of ASP work. :)
[ 2007.03.18 18:45:59 ] (notify) Typhoon belonging to Gandolf self-destructs. |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 07:09:00 -
[12]
Well, another crisis averted, another ignored problem... right ?
Until next time the server goes down for an extended/unscheduled downtime and people restart complaining about not being able to switch skills, that is...
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Iuris Proeliator
Caldari
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.04.04 07:21:00 -
[13]
Ignored problem?
They've already stated they're developing some sort of queuing system in a Devblog over a month back.
Just becuase you didn't get a personalized response doesn't mean there hasn't been one.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 07:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/04/2007 07:34:44
You mean over HALF A YEAR back... or even more.
It's one of those Soon™ things where that actually means "well, probably never".
If it would be anywhere else but the bare bottom of their priority list, we would have seen it up and running since before Revelations 1.0
But I wasn't talking about a skill queue, was I ?
In-game skill queue <> web-based skilltrain switch.
Depending on limitations on the in-game queue (would it be number of skills ? would it be training time ? what other limits ?), you could maybe set it up decently for a longer absence... or maybe not.
A web-based skillswitch possibility allows for a lot more user freedom, and still doesn't have that "well, I did nothing, EVE did everything alone" feel to it.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Wild Rho
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.04.04 07:54:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Wild Rho on 04/04/2007 07:53:16
I think last time a dev said they won't allow web based skill switching because there are risks involved in regards to account security (I'd need to do some digging to find that again though).
However there have been hints now and again of allowing a more flexibly way to train skills (queues, have 2 skills train at once but at half the speed, etc).
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 08:47:00 -
[16]
Myeah... some might have said that... but WHAT risks ?
You already use your username/pass to even POST in these forums.
You do the same to access account and character info .
Somebody "unauthorised" (and malicious) who finds out your username/password can simply make your chars vanish by giving them to somebody else (and guess what, you get also billed by CCP for that), and to make matters even worse he can claim they were aquired through "ebaying", and then you not only lose your chars permanently, but you might also get a shiny ban.
So excuse me if I can't believe any of the whole "risks to account security" tidbits when talking about reasons web-based skill training shouldn't be introduced.
There are loads of other nastier things that can be done to you already if you ever lose your account/pass info.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Sahjahn
Caldari
Black Wolves
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Posted - 2007.04.04 09:01:00 -
[17]
Is the problem with the server down not going to be the fact the skills are stored on the server? How can you switch a skill on a server that isn't up and running?
Now i guess you could store the changes made and apply them to the server once it's up and running but down that path leads messyness.
Not saying it's a bad idea just don't think it will easily solve your issue.
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Wild Rho
Amarr
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.04.04 09:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Akita T
Myeah... some might have said that... but WHAT risks ?
You already use your username/pass to even POST in these forums.
You do the same to access account and character info .
Somebody "unauthorised" (and malicious) who finds out your username/password can simply make your chars vanish by giving them to somebody else (and guess what, you get also billed by CCP for that), and to make matters even worse he can claim they were aquired through "ebaying", and then you not only lose your chars permanently, but you might also get a shiny ban.
So excuse me if I can't believe any of the whole "risks to account security" tidbits when talking about reasons web-based skill training shouldn't be introduced.
There are loads of other nastier things that can be done to you already if you ever lose your account/pass info.
I think CCP know better than you when it comes to security issues with their own game. If they say there are issues then you can be sure they mean more than the things involved than what you mentioned.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 09:37:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Wild Rho
I think CCP know better than you when it comes to security issues with their own game.
They have an "event history" that says otherwise... users seem to know more about the issues than CCP, or at least CCP is way too slow in solving known issues. Either way, not very encouraging.
Originally by: Wild Rho
If they say there are issues then you can be sure they mean more than the things involved than what you mentioned.
Of course, there could be a really legitimate reason too, but obscure and/or complicated enough so it's not worth mentioning.
But more likely, its something like "we don't feel like coding that now, but rather focus on something else".
Without any regular official statements regarding this, you could easily just believe that instead.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Gaia Thorn
Villains
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Posted - 2007.04.04 10:40:00 -
[20]
Im sorry im at a loss here, you want a function so you can switch skills when a unschedueled server DT or reboot is.
Why i gotta ask since it's a unschedueld reboot and not one they knew about.
i wouldnt say anything if the server were down for days but cmon a few hours im surely u can survive.
Only reason i can see this function at all being implemented is if one was on vacation.
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 10:50:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Akita T on 04/04/2007 10:48:10
Originally by: Gaia Thorn
Im sorry im at a loss here, you want a function so you can switch skills when a unschedueled server DT or reboot is.
To a degree, that too.
But not only that.
What a web-based skillswitching option would allow you to do is switch skills from a machine without the EVE client installed, only requiring basic (web) internet access.
If you can now post in the forum, you could then switch your skills.
That means you could:
* switch skills while in vacation somewhere (from an internet access point of from your web-enabled mobile phone)
* switch skills from the job while on a short break (I doubt most companies would NOT fire you if you have the EVE client installed on your office computer... that is, if you COULD install it in the first place)
* switch skills from machines that CAN'T login into TQ (not capable of running the EVE client, or not able to connect to other ports than HTTP/HTTPS)
* and yes, switch skills during normal, extended and even unscheduled downtimes
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Mishya
Gallente
Argentum Angstrum
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Posted - 2007.04.04 10:55:00 -
[22]
Change the current skill training system so it doesn't stop between each level, but continue all the way to lvl. 5, unless you change to another skill manually.
I think this would solve the problem for most people. If you go on holliday etc., just start training a lvl. 1 skill, and when you come back, it'll be at or close to lvl. 5.
/Mishya
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Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 10:59:00 -
[23]
That would be a nice alternative too.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.04.04 11:21:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Mishya
Change the current skill training system so it doesn't stop between each level, but continue all the way to lvl. 5, unless you change to another skill manually.
I think this would solve the problem for most people. If you go on holliday etc., just start training a lvl. 1 skill, and when you come back, it'll be at or close to lvl. 5.
/Mishya
<3 , signed, seconded, whatever
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MrLobster
Cosmic Odyssey
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.04.04 11:33:00 -
[25]
Even though I want a way to switch skills by using a web based UI. This causes a problem... with a few modifications to evemon, you could end up having evemon changing your skill for you.
__________________________
Catch the Pigeon! |
FireFoxx80
Caldari
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.04.04 11:58:00 -
[26]
To be honest, I'd like to see 2/3/4 skills at 50%/33%/25% of their speeds.
Being able to train skills over the 3 chars on the same account would be fantastic. My wife has a char on my account, and she can't really train it up as I am always training my main.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Akita T
Caldari
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.04.04 18:01:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MrLobster
Even though I want a way to switch skills by using a web based UI. This causes a problem... with a few modifications to evemon, you could end up having evemon changing your skill for you.
Not that the guys developing EVE-Mon wouldn't have the *ability* to load up the EVE client, enter login data, select character and switch skills for you, if they really wanted to.
Just because it's possible doesn't mean they will do it... they like to abide by EVE's rules, and contrary to popular belief, so do most people playing it.
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MySkills | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Basileus
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Posted - 2007.04.04 18:10:00 -
[28]
Count the ways in which Eve would crash if the database is connected to a web interface.
No Sir. No skill switching via the browser please.
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Maltitol
Gallente
Tides of Silence
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Posted - 2007.04.04 18:28:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Maltitol on 04/04/2007 18:35:48
what i do:
i use evemon, if it says i will finish at 11am (when im at work), then i train another skill i need anyways be it long or not, to time my 11am skill to finish when im home instead. you cant say you only have 1 certain skill you want to train? BS? frig? cruiser? weapon upgrades? even for a mothership or titan, im sure you can find a secondary skill to fill the time.. i do
problem resovled... for almost a full year now
granted for unscheduled down times, nothing you can do, we've all lost training times there.......
Originally by: Devil Hanzo
There is no problem with Jita, there is a problem with everybody going to Jita at the same time... 
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
Sanctuary
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Posted - 2007.04.04 18:40:00 -
[30]
Technically all skills really do (I would guess) is calculate how many SP you have trained in it based on:
A. When the skill started training.
B. How many SP/Minute you earn.
C. How many you had already in that skill.
Then it's just a mattter of waiting until you reach the timeout. Which, incidentally, I'm sure is why you have to stop training skills when you modify implants or jumpclone, because B. must be recalculated and the client told what the new rate is, so it can update the display with the running total.
That's why training can keep working across downtime, and so forth. Integrating this with the web application should be perfectly doable. *However*, it's not really workable during patch time, because the DB is offline. The info available to us is copies, not the real thing. I'm sure CCP has a very sophisticated setup of replicas, read-only DBs and application logic to manage such things.
I fully support the concept of a one-skill queue. A friend of mine is going away for a while and can't change any skills while gone, and doesn't have any available to train longer than his absence. A one-skill queue would resolve 99% of the "I'm gone on vacation for a while" issues and not be difficult (relative to other means) to implement.
A major drawback to skill management in the web UI is the automation/scripting of it for farmers. Players shouldn't be punished for what the cheaters do, but it's not a feature that's been nerfed, it just never existed and for good reason.
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