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Contracts:Why no 'public loan'?

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Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.04 06:14:00 - [1] Is there some complex database reason why contract loans cannot be public? A loan available to everyone would be a great way of making some cash from those spare items lying around your hanger. People could rent out ships to new pilots wanting to try them out. Inventors could hire out interfaces. The possibilities are almost endless. So why doesn't it exist? Drone Love - My skills
Makoto Kasomyuki	Posted - 2007.04.04 06:18:00 - [2] I can see it now..... "Rent-a-Dread" or for those a little bit more pricey... "Rent-a-Titan!"
RaWBLooD	Posted - 2007.04.04 06:28:00 - [3] it would be a great idea, a lot like using BPCS isntead of BPOS but skipping the manufacturing phase. miners-you can: switch, rob, wardec, nerf, scam them, buy below market, pirate them on their way to sell. mining < trading, ratting, manufacturing from market bought minerals,they still wont go away
Del Narveux Obsidian Angels Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.04 06:30:00 - [4] That would be awesome, but methinks difficult to haxploit-proof it. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
diabolic clone Amarr Paxton Industries	Posted - 2007.04.04 08:53:00 - [5] I am glad someone mentioned this because last week I was trying to offer up some ships and modules in return for a loan of frozen corpses or something worthless like that as payment. It was probably over looked or set up in place like this to prevent an influx of omfg-igot-scamzored petitions.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.04.04 09:29:00 - [6] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 04/04/2007 09:26:06 I can see a use for Loaning out a, say, navy raven for 100mil/week with a 1bil collateral - I.E people can rent it and play with it and return it before the week is up. I think there would be a market for these kind of things. -- Billion Isk Mission
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.05 02:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Brutor Shaun Is there some complex database reason why contract loans cannot be public? Yes, because there's no recourse for defaulting on a loan. None, nada, nunca, no, iei, nyet. If the capability were there, you know some silly new-type person would put their CNR up for a public loan and then petition CCP when it "disappears" and the loan defaults. Either that, or there would have to be some kind of defaulting system in place, which needs contingencies (ex, you lose the item in PvP. What now? Take from your wallet? What value should be used? Market? Baseprice? Should you drop to negative wallet if the loanee doesn't have the cash? Should an equivalent item be taken? From where?). The other problem is that items are not tracked by owner in the sense that they should be. In other words, any CNR is just a CNR, until you assemble it. But then only the person who assembles it "owns" the ship (and only for the purposes for insurance); you loan your CNR to a friend, they repack and reassmble. Ipso facto, they now "own" that ship (and you get bounced on your insurance!). There's no way on the player-side to track things like the "original" owner. So, it's scam city and it's hard to program for. - Trem
Aaron Static Igneus Auctorita	Posted - 2007.04.05 05:27:00 - [8] Take some inspiration from real life. If one defaults on a loan, they are garnished a certain amount from all bounties, mission rewards, market transactions and even player donations until it's paid off. ----- I had a sig but it kept getting nerfed for being 200 bytes over the size limit. ps I hate you all
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.05 05:28:00 - [9] Originally by: Aaron Static Take some inspiration from real life. If one defaults on a loan, they are garnished a certain amount from all bounties, mission rewards, market transactions and even player donations until it's paid off. 1) Claim loan with noob alt. 2) Give item from loan to your main. 3) Debt on an alt--everybody panic! --23 Member-- Listen to EVE-Trance Radio (back up, new address!)
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.05 05:56:00 - [10] Originally by: Trem Sinval Originally by: Brutor Shaun Is there some complex database reason why contract loans cannot be public? Yes, because there's no recourse for defaulting on a loan. None, nada, nunca, no, iei, nyet. If the capability were there, you know some silly new-type person would put their CNR up for a public loan and then petition CCP when it "disappears" and the loan defaults. Either that, or there would have to be some kind of defaulting system in place, which needs contingencies (ex, you lose the item in PvP. What now? Take from your wallet? What value should be used? Market? Baseprice? Should you drop to negative wallet if the loanee doesn't have the cash? Should an equivalent item be taken? From where?). The other problem is that items are not tracked by owner in the sense that they should be. In other words, any CNR is just a CNR, until you assemble it. But then only the person who assembles it "owns" the ship (and only for the purposes for insurance); you loan your CNR to a friend, they repack and reassmble. Ipso facto, they now "own" that ship (and you get bounced on your insurance!). There's no way on the player-side to track things like the "original" owner. I may have read it wrong, but isn't that what collateral is for? The borrower doesn't return the item, you receive the collateral payment. Without the collateral, they can't accept the loan. Drone Love - My skills

Moraguth Amarr Rangers	Posted - 2007.04.05 07:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Trem Sinval Originally by: Brutor Shaun Is there some complex database reason why contract loans cannot be public? Yes, because there's no recourse for defaulting on a loan. None, nada, nunca, no, iei, nyet. If the capability were there, you know some silly new-type person would put their CNR up for a public loan and then petition CCP when it "disappears" and the loan defaults. Either that, or there would have to be some kind of defaulting system in place, which needs contingencies (ex, you lose the item in PvP. What now? Take from your wallet? What value should be used? Market? Baseprice? Should you drop to negative wallet if the loanee doesn't have the cash? Should an equivalent item be taken? From where?). The other problem is that items are not tracked by owner in the sense that they should be. In other words, any CNR is just a CNR, until you assemble it. But then only the person who assembles it "owns" the ship (and only for the purposes for insurance); you loan your CNR to a friend, they repack and reassmble. Ipso facto, they now "own" that ship (and you get bounced on your insurance!). There's no way on the player-side to track things like the "original" owner. So, it's scam city and it's hard to program for. I just read your first comment and had to say WRONG, that's what collateral is for. If they don't pay up, you get to keep the collateral. good game
Trem Sinval Sinval Enterprises	Posted - 2007.04.05 20:15:00 - [12] Then if you're dealing with collateral (and I assume you did add a relevant amount to cover ship + insurance + fittings + ammo + the required "don't default on me you b**tage"), then how much more different is this to selling the item to said loanee? Contra-contraiwise, why not just use an item exchange contract; the "collateral" for the ship. When said luser wants the collateral back, he sends a new exchange contract. - Trem
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.04.05 20:31:00 - [13] The real problem with laons is that you cannot offer a loan up on a mutialy acceptable collateral. I.E. Items cant be used as collateral. lets say i need 10m isk, and have a couple of cruisers that i use on a regular basis worth about 11m isk each. Now, i dont want to sell the cruisers to get the isk, because then i have to re-buy them and ill come out behind and waste a lot of time. If i could set up a freeform loan with a guy that put one of the cruisers in escrow[collateral] and then accepted the money. Then the repayment would be backed by the item which was mutualy acceptable and you would increase liquidity while opening up a loan market. I.E. Things required to facilitate growth. Going the other way, the problem is less pronounced except that there are no public loans. Such that there isnt a dread loan market. Not everyone needs a dread all the time, and letting people rent them if they have the liquidity to cover the risk isnt a bad idea. I.E. Corp A wants to knock down a POS and needs a dread for it. But the 1.5b isk to purcahse, insure and fit the dread is an expense they cant afford. They have the money and the skills, but they will need it for other things and dont want to have to buy, fit and then resell the dread. So they take a loan out on the dread, kill the POS, return the dread and get their collateral back. They are out the cost of the loan only. [and insurance if they payed for it]. Other options include a accepting a public loan to finance the dread loan if such an option existed. Corp B might not have 1b isk collateral for the loan, but they do have a faction fitted CNR, so they offer that on collateral for a 1b isk loan, take the 1b isk and rent the dread, kill the POS with the dread, return the dread for the 1b isk and then pay off the loan. If they lose the dread they dont get the 1b isk back and they cant pay off the loan and the 1b isk loaner gets the CNR. Risk is allocated to the renters/loanee as it should be and world is right. Increasing liquidity of fixed assets is a good thing. Investment++ ---------------------------------------- Thou Shalt "Pew Pew"
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.04.05 21:18:00 - [14] The loan system is crap dammit. I loaned a guy 50 mill and he stopped playing before paying me. I can't get my money -OR- threaten to break his legs for it. I know putting him into the negatives would be exploitable, as Dark Shikari points out above, but at least take him down to 0 isk and give me what I can get! - - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - or automatic signatures - - - - - - - - "Your weapons deactivate as the eve servers begin to explode."
Brutor Shaun Minmatar Freelancers UK Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.06 06:46:00 - [15] Edited by: Brutor Shaun on 06/04/2007 06:44:46 Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Aaron Static Take some inspiration from real life. If one defaults on a loan, they are garnished a certain amount from all bounties, mission rewards, market transactions and even player donations until it's paid off. 1) Claim loan with noob alt. 2) Give item from loan to your main. 3) Debt on an alt--everybody panic! Using contract loans, if you put a ship up for loan it has a collateral price. Noob Alt couldn't borrow the ship without putting the collateral up. If Noob Alt then leaves the game, the lender receives the collateral, which should be set at a value greater than the ship. If you want to loan isk to people, that comes down to friends and trust. Nobody panic! Drone Love - My skills


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