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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Karan Hanid
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:49:00 -
[1]
Yarrr  ,
Dont know if this had been discussed already, but since I've recently been a victim of a Log On Trap, an idea sprung up in my mind - why not give newly logged on players a sort of "recalibration time" similar to the one Covert Ops ships have? I.E. do not allow newly logged on ships to lock targets for some time, for example 1 or 5 minutes.
Any other thoughts on the matter? Is there anyone that does not think that this is an exploit? Should ships be reimbursed if you fall a victim of such a trap?
Thanks for your contribution in advance.
Yarrr
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:51:00 -
[2]
5 minutes is too long, considering that some people log in for a quick belt rat run before logging out again, or log in an alt to rep a friendly then log him out
I'm all for a 1-2 min timer. Long enough for whoever's getting trapped to run his arse off
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NPC Vendetta system, Local rehash, Probe decoys |
Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.05 11:53:00 -
[3]
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
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If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
Roshan longshot
Gallente
Ordos Humanitas
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.05 12:25:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
sorry proof or you know......
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter pirate or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box.
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Misanth
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Posted - 2007.04.05 12:33:00 -
[5]
I find this funny.. this is one of few aspects where actually World of Warcraft > EvE. On regular PvP servers noone care if you get corpsecamped there, it happens, people like to grief you for whatever reason. But on RP (or RP-PvP) servers if someone griefs you like that you can petition to a GM and report them for 'meta-gaming', as they are using game-mechanics to do stuff their characters never would realise they could.
Would be interesting to see the RP corporations in EvE to use similar arguments.
Either way, to get back on track, what someone said above; it's been said to be an exploit but.. too much work for GM's so well.. if you do want to petition about it, remember to put down timestamps. They're unlikely to bother tho as it's hard to prove, but if you *can* provide: 1) name 2) time of occation; then it's much easier for them to check logs. I used to be GM in an asian MMO and I know we only bothered to check logs if we had those 2 basic information, else it'd be a crapload of work and not worth the time. Still can't guarantee that EvE's GM's bother but yeah I seen the same info as provided here above, that they do consider it an exploit.
And well, I suggested myself to put in a 5min timer on both log-in and log-off, logging in a station would keep you clear from this timer but logging in space would give you that 5min timer. You could still be attacked tho, just not attack back. ;) Should provide an interesting feature to counter alot of cheezy tactics.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2007.04.05 12:42:00 -
[6]
 They say this is an exploit but anyone with two braincells can figure out how to code in a counter.
But, we forget, its CCP...
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NPC Vendetta system, Local rehash, Probe decoys |
Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.04.05 13:01:00 -
[7]
Ask yourself why people felt the need to use this tactic in the first place.
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Say What? |
Nyana
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Posted - 2007.04.05 13:09:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari
5 minutes is too long, considering that some people log in for a quick belt rat run before logging out again, or log in an alt to rep a friendly then log him out
Hm, logging in to kill a belt of rats sounds fine. The second part sounds fishy though - not that it's a "trap" per se, but it's not really... what to say, "true" gaming, or whatever the opposite of metagaming is.
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Sugar Queen
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Posted - 2007.04.05 13:39:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Sugar Queen on 05/04/2007 13:35:27
It's sad to see people just giving up on talking/complaining to CCP...
It doesnt matter why people do this in the first place, what matters it is - how do you deal with such people? Of course, just getting on with it is one way...
Damn, ffs, posted with an alt. This is KARAN HANID.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:22:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Karan Hanid
Yarrr ,
Any other thoughts on the matter? Is there anyone that does not think that this is an exploit? Should ships be reimbursed if you fall a victim of such a trap?
Thanks for your contribution in advance.
Yarrr
Removing the recon function from Local chat would go some way towards allowing people to set up proper ambushes without resorting to metagaming. Until this happens there is absolutely no cause to call a logon trap an exploit or wine about reimbursements as a result of being on its receiving end.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:23:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
CCP had stated no such thing.
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Ling Xiao
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:47:00 -
[12]
You're right, I must have dreamed it when Oveur posted such about a year ago. My bad.
__________
If you think the game is rigged, why are you still playing? |
Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2007.04.05 14:58:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
Someone from CCP told you this? They told us it's not an exploit. Dishonorable and dirty yes, but not an exploit. Essentially it would make logging in and shooting something an exploit. Give me a link because I don't believe it.
If it is an exploit, how long are you supposed to wait to shoot someone after logging in? Presumably if it's an exploit, there is a guideline. What's the limit?
To me, I look at a login trap the same way I do jumping into a system. Someone gets agro from you so you can't jump, and everyone comes into system to kill you. There is 0 difference. It's a pvp tactic as old as getting aggression.
-Kal
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My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong. |
St Dragon
NexGen Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kalixa Hihro
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
Someone from CCP told you this? They told us it's not an exploit. Dishonorable and dirty yes, but not an exploit. Essentially it would make logging in and shooting something an exploit. Give me a link because I don't believe it.
If it is an exploit, how long are you supposed to wait to shoot someone after logging in? Presumably if it's an exploit, there is a guideline. What's the limit?
To me, I look at a login trap the same way I do jumping into a system. Someone gets agro from you so you can't jump, and everyone comes into system to kill you. There is 0 difference. It's a pvp tactic as old as getting aggression.
-Kal
Actually over posted that it was an exploit over a year ago. But since nothing can be done about it there is nothing they can do and for now its 'allowed'.
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"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand |
St Dragon
NexGen Industries
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Posted - 2007.04.05 15:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
CCP had stated no such thing.
It is suprising then that someone who was here since 2003 doesant know this?
I can only think of 2 reasons you dont know of this statement already.
1. You use log-off tactics yourself.
2. You only recently started Forum whoring here.
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"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:14:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 05/04/2007 16:12:17
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
CCP had stated no such thing.
They have stated that it's lame and don't like those tactics. That's something that they have definately said. ( My memory serves me quite well for such things. )
.... ok, I digged a bit, didn't believe I find it, but I did: logon traps
I seem that a dev has said more about it, maybe it's later in that thread, but now I'm too lazy to read that whole thing again. lol
___________
Muuuhhh !!! |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:36:00 -
[17]
Logon traps are as much an exploit of game mechanics as logoffski is, as far as I'm concerned. It gets worse in 0.0, people just come to your system, logoff in a belt, and their's nothing you can do about it.
FLAMING
When you can't think of logical arguments and are too dumb to STFU |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:39:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Plutoinum
Edited by: Plutoinum on 05/04/2007 16:12:17
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
CCP had stated no such thing.
They have stated that it's lame and don't like those tactics. That's something that they have definately said. ( My memory serves me quite well for such things. )
ThatÆs my recollection also.
However, CCP never stated that a login trap is an exploit. Calling it ôlameö is an opinion, and, like *******s, everyoneÆs got one.
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:48:00 -
[19]
Originally by: St Dragon
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Ling Xiao
To paraphrase CCP, it's an exploit, but since it would be hard for GMs to enforce such a ruling, they allow it.
CCP had stated no such thing.
noobish attempt at flaming removed - Razin
1. You use log-off tactics yourself.
I see nothing wrong with the logon traps (which is the subject of this thread) until the recon function is decoupled from Local.
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Peter Armstrong
Caldari
5punkorp
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:48:00 -
[20]
i agree with the OP.
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"There is no avoiding war; it can only be postponed to the advantage of others" |
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Loyal Servant
Caldari
The Short Bus Squad
The SUdden Death Squad
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Posted - 2007.04.05 16:54:00 -
[21]
As a victim of -A- logon tactics.. (thats right, svetlana :P)
I agree it should not be allowed... BUT I never, not once, saw any official of CCP state that it was an illegal tactic.
Put up, or shut up (Prove it.)
TSBS - Eve's Premier podding service!
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Sugar Queen
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:00:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sugar Queen on 05/04/2007 16:57:34
Originally by: Kalixa Hihro
If it is an exploit, how long are you supposed to wait to shoot someone after logging in? Presumably if it's an exploit, there is a guideline. What's the limit?
The thread is about the fact that this SHOULD BE considered an exploit, it's not saying it already is considered, otherwise there would be no point... so there are no guidelines...
You SHOULD BE "supposed to" wait for maybe 5 minutes or whatever time CCP thinks is long enough. I'd say 2-3minutes minimum.
Originally by: Kalixa Hihro
To me, I look at a login trap the same way I do jumping into a system. Someone gets agro from you so you can't jump, and everyone comes into system to kill you. There is 0 difference. It's a pvp tactic as old as getting aggression.
The diffence between a log-on trap and jumping into a system is that it's YOUR fault you havent got eyes nearby, if you know you are in a hostile environment. However, if THERE IS NO WAY of knowing where your opponents can strike from, that's an exploit.
Even if the local chat was removed and you didnt know if there was anybody in the system, you could at least scan them with probes, or directional scanner using a Covert Ops. However, if they are logged off, you cant do this. Therefore, it still would be an exploit.
Perhaps CCP should create a new "battle-cloak" to allow for ambushes to happen... but simply stating that log on traps are a lame tactic just isnt good enough for Game Developers.
P.S. Damn, again... this is KARAN HANID.
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podadot
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:07:00 -
[23]
I also recall dev's classifying it as an exploit. Guess all our memories are bad, except for some reason, the people that use these tactics.
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Brugar
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:09:00 -
[24]
Very sorry to ask this...
but what is a Log On Trap?
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:15:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sugar Queen
The diffence between a log-on trap and jumping into a system is that it's YOUR fault you havent got eyes nearby, if you know you are in a hostile environment. However, if THERE IS NO WAY of knowing where your opponents can strike from, that's an exploit.
There is a way: you could post a scout in the system for a long enough time to know whoÆs there. Therefore itÆs not an exploit.
Originally by: podadot
I also recall dev's classifying it as an exploit. Guess all our memories are bad, except for some reason, the people that use these tactics.
Speak for your own memory. Here's the link posted by Plutoinum with relevant CCP responses: CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Brugar
Very sorry to ask this...
but what is a Log On Trap?
ItÆs an ambush tactic where you pre-position your forces and log them off until such a time as the enemy shows up.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
Ask yourself why people felt the need to use this tactic in the first place.
.. because they can...?
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Angellyne
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:37:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Razin
Speak for your own memory. Here's the link posted by Plutoinum with relevant CCP responses: CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
So everybody's right. From that thread: "It stopped being an exploit when..." So at some point, I guess that means it WAS an exploit - but now it's not.
So you can stop splitting hairs about who has a better memory. It's not an exploit, it's a perfectly legitimate tactic for unimaginative, "win at any cost", zero-sum players.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.04.05 17:38:00 -
[29]
Make it possible to scan for recent warpsignatures, meaning ships recently logged off in the current system. That way you'll at least have a chance to spot a trap.
Also Known As |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2007.04.05 18:04:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Angellyne
Originally by: Razin
Speak for your own memory. Here's the link posted by Plutoinum with relevant CCP responses: CCP: Why is a Log-on Trap not an Exploit?
So everybody's right. From that thread: "It stopped being an exploit when..." So at some point, I guess that means it WAS an exploit - but now it's not.
So you can stop splitting hairs about who has a better memory. It's not an exploit, it's a perfectly legitimate tactic for unimaginative, "win at any cost", zero-sum players.
The refusal to accept someoneÆs erroneous generalizations is splitting hairs? Whether or not login traps were an exploit several years ago is totally irrelevant to this thread, as are your amateurish assessments of their utility.
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