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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2003.12.27 19:41:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 27/12/2003 19:42:15
When i read on a Original BP that have not been researched at all. And check the mineral usages. Is this with or with out waste ?
Then when it is researched, is the mineral usage still with/without waste ?
Do this apply both for You and Perfect ?
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Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ariemeth
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Posted - 2003.12.28 15:59:00 -
[2]
When you look at any bp's info the amount that is shows is with the waste already factored in.
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Badger
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Posted - 2003.12.28 18:31:00 -
[3]
It is also showing the amount of minerals needed IF you have a Production Efficiency lvl 5. Other wise tack on another 25% to the BPO list.
B
Badger
Admiral of Ethics
Hadean Drive Yards
"Fear shouldn't hurt, just never put your hand into a bag of angr |
Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2003.12.29 01:27:00 -
[4]
Then whats the formula to find out base mineral usage _with_ waste from a BPC thats have ME = X ?
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Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ariemeth
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Posted - 2004.01.01 23:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Ariemeth on 01/01/2004 23:11:25
Since the Castor patch the amount a bp shows is both how much it will cost you and how much it would cost with PE 5. The you value is how much it takes you to make the item. The perfect value is how much it would cost you if you had PE 5. I have tested most of my bp's and the you value has been accurate. To get the amount that is waste and the base amount takes a little math.
Base = The minimum amount for a bp
Waste = The value of the wastage factor
Total = The value shown as your cost.
To find the Base value the equation is
Total / (waste + 1) = Base
To find the Waste value
(Total / base ) - 1 = Waste
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.01.01 23:47:00 -
[6]
 Quote:
Edited by: Ariemeth on 01/01/2004 23:11:25
Since the Castor patch the amount a bp shows is both how much it will cost you and how much it would cost with PE 5. The you value is how much it takes you to make the item. The perfect value is how much it would cost you if you had PE 5.
That's not strictly accurate: the perfect value is what it would cost you if the amount of waste was nil: but you'd need to research mineral efficiency to an infinite degree to achieve that.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.02 20:00:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Quote:
Edited by: Ariemeth on 01/01/2004 23:11:25
Since the Castor patch the amount a bp shows is both how much it will cost you and how much it would cost with PE 5. The you value is how much it takes you to make the item. The perfect value is how much it would cost you if you had PE 5.
That's not strictly accurate: the perfect value is what it would cost you if the amount of waste was nil: but you'd need to research mineral efficiency to an infinite degree to achieve that.
No this cant be right.
I have maxed out my manu skills. When i then see how much minerals it goes writen on the BP it match exactly with what the factory usage is when i make one batch.
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Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.03 12:09:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Ruffles on 03/01/2004 12:23:40
Some people are lucky enough to see the blueprints minerals requirements display two sets of information (not all can though, might be worth clearing cache), one which tries to work out the dynamics requirements based on your skills. The other piece of information is the Perfect build.
Pre-castor, you could simply subtract the displayed waste from the Required to get the perfect value for any mineral.
This value is the value against which all calculations are applied, mineral efficiency and production efficiency.
However, post Castor patch you no longer see the waste displayed. Like I already said, some people might be lucky enough to see some figures with the word Perfect besides them. Those are what we all strive to achieve of course.
You can actually research a lot of game blueprints to prefect build minerals, it does indeed take time, but its well worth it if you build hundreds of them, as I am sure most builders know how much trit we can eat through. 
I used to use Crimson Autograph for my build information about blueprints, until I found out it was just wrong. Since then I took the time to sit down and work out how it worked, and I have put that into my spreadsheet to allow me to forecast mineral needs, exactly, for an array of items, against any of the PE skill levels.
WasteFactor = Original Blueprint Factor / (1 + ME level)
Where the "Original Blueprint Factor" is probably 0.1 or 0.05
//Below is an Excel type formula
=ROUNDDOWN((1+WasteFactor)*(PerfectMineralAmount*(1.25-0.05*PESkillLevel)), 0)
Breaking it down:
(1 + WasteFactor)
This gives you a multiplier based on the research effects.
(PerfectMineralAmount*(1.25-(0.05*PESkillLevel))
This multiplies the Perfect Mineral value for that blueprint (for example the minimum tritanium required for a build) by the effect of your Production Efficiency Skill level. As you can see, if you have PE zero then you get a 1.25 multiplier effect against the perfect mineral amount. If you have PE5, this multiplier is effectively removed by having it always equal to One.
ROUNDDOWN( <Value> , 0 )
This just rounds the value down to the whole number, thus removing any fractional element leftover.
As you can see, the build is actually rounded down to zero, so any decimal waste is actually ignored.
Therefore, if you research a blueprint to levels where you get an 0.9xxx waste for all minerals, you have actually effectively researched it to perfection.
Zarquon, hope that helps a little, and please feel free to evemail/convo me some time about more information if you feel you need anything cleared up.
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.03 18:04:00 -
[9]
hehe i wish it would.
It might be me that are really slow (wich many of my friend would agree to) Or im just verry stubbern (wich all my friend do agree to)
I have read and used about 4 diferent formulars to find out how this really works. None so fare have been right (or at least im not using them right)
I have several chars running from the same EVE install. One with maxed out manufacturing skills and one with none at all.
The one with maxed out skills dont have a "you - perfect" listings of mineral usage on the BP's. He only have one "usage" listing of minerals usage. The other char have both a "you" and "perfect" listing.
The one that have maxed out his skills can see that the usage of minerals lowers for each lvl of ME he research the BP (This numers fith the perfect wich the one with out skills read in "perfect")
This leads me to the conclutin that the "you" factor and the "usage" (for the one with maxed skills) actualy are the usage for maxed skills inclusive waste. And not perfect research (wich is never possibel to reach).
Me thinking that the perfect (or the usage if you have maxed out skills) is "usage + waste" And that my researching the BP you can only lower down the waste factor.
Problem is, i cant make my spreadsheet right. It seems right at ME0 but when i research the BP to ME1, the numbers are wrong again.
It would be good to see some working examples of a ME0 probe (or any other bp) and a ME1 probe with fiting formulars.
*Feel so stupid"
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ariemeth
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Posted - 2004.01.04 12:58:00 -
[10]
The amounts shown on a bp for the mineral cost for perfect is how much that bp would take to make if you had PE5. The only way to see how much is waste is to use the formula i already posted above.
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Nemesis I
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Posted - 2004.01.04 18:10:00 -
[11]
Now Im confused
I have PE5 and its showing a gap of 25% between me and perfect :(
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.04 20:11:00 -
[12]
Me to hehe.
Can i have a copy of one of your exel spread sheets ?
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.05 13:46:00 -
[13]
Perfect is obtainable. I have numberous blueprints researched to the point where they are as low as they will go. No matter what additional mineral research I do I will never ever reduce the consumed minerals further. Don't think that because you can't get 0.0000xxx on the blueprint you can never reach minimum mineral consumption.
Ok, pre-patch you had two values on your spreadsheets. Required, and Waste. I will go through the calculations with you based on some known information pre-patch. The current system really does make it incredibly difficult to try to determine how much time to invest in doing something.
Pre Patch Iridium Charge L Blueprint information:
Mineral level: 0
Wastage Factor: 0.1
Tritanium Required: 506.0
Tritanium Wasted: 46.0
Pyerite Required: 423.5
Pyerite Wasted: 38.5
Lets start by trying to determine what the Absolute Minimum Mineral requirements are.
As we all know, the Required values include the waste information already, therefore if we subtract the Wasted information from Required we get the following:
506.0 - 46.0 = 460
To double check we have the right value, we need to test the equation for waste against this value.
Wastage Factor: Original Starting Factor / (1 + ME level)
Which is:
0.1 / (1 + 0) = 0.1
So we already know that the required mineral amount includes the waste. Therefore we assume it is 1 times the amount of minerals plus the wastage factor.
Waste = 1 + <New Wastage Factor>
= 1 + 0.1 = 1.1
Now we have a multiplier to use to determine the required minerals.
Required Tritanium = 460 x 1.1 = 506
Ok, so we see that this assumption might be correct. Now lets check it against the figures for some research performed against it.
If I research this blueprint to ME 46, and then repeat these calculations assuming that 460 is correct what do we get.
Wastage Factor: 0.1 / (1 + 46)
= 0.0021276
Required Tritanium = 460 x (1 + 0.0021276)
= 460.97869
All production value fractional ammounts are rounded towards zero. Therefore, this results in a build requirement of 460 which we had calculated earlier was the absolute minimum mineral value for that type.
The same calculations applied to each of the minerals would give you those Absolute Minimums. It is this minimum value against which all the calculations are based. If you know this information, you can calculate things accurately.
This was all pre-patch, and to be honest I have no idea if they are exactly the same yet as I haven't looked at it that deeply, as I have been running missions almost non-stop. I will try to do more to find out.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.05 13:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ruffles on 05/01/2004 14:20:00
I just double checked something and indeed the statement of PERFECT on the blueprint viewing of minerals is a very bad choice of words.
In this context it is refering to the current mineral requirements for if you as a builder had Production Efficiency 5.
There is actually no way to determine, from all I can currently see, the Absolute Minimum Mineral information which I was talking about earlier.
Since they removed that Wasted information, it is now almost guess work to try to figure out what the values are. I have had to work three types of blueprints copies that I purchased recently backwards to try to determine what the Absolute Minimum is from the displayed Perfect values. Its not as easy as it used to be
I tested some scenarios against the current situation and blueprints, and the Perfect information on the blueprint is very close to true, but it looks to me like it is doing some rounding up in some cases where it should be truncating/loosing the fractional part of the value.
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.05 15:36:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 05/01/2004 15:41:03
Ruffles i thank you for beeing so kind to help me and other that have a hard time understanding this. I do understand you formulars now. What i dont understand and i dont think it have been explaind here (with the new patch) is:
Im trying to make a spreadsheet that shows me the mineral usage and waste for a BP thats not researched. And then make a colum wich show the same for each ME i research it to. That way i can wath each ME lvl's mineral usage and waste as it changes between each research lvl.
I know im a slow learner and math is about the worst thing. Could you show a working example for a bp at ME0, ME1 and ME2 with matching formulars for PE0 and PE5. That way im sure i get a hang of this. hehe.
I thank you in advance for your kindness. And if the patch have done it so that it is impossible then i thank you anyway =)
PS: The 5% PE lvl. do that remove 5% pr lvl only from the waste ? Is it removing only from the base waste ? Is it removed before or after you calculate waste agains ME ? This things is a bit unclear for me to.
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Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.05 16:44:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ruffles on 05/01/2004 16:49:01
Ok, it is a commonly misunderstood point this waste stuff. I even thought differently at the beginning.
The minerals you see, are all you need. They already include the waste. You don't need to worry about the waste, apart from any reductions you want to make by researching some mineral efficiency.
Quote:
Required Tritanium = 460 x 1.1 = 506
What I was trying to demonstrate here was that we already have the waste used in the calculations which provide you with those numbers stating how much of each mineral is required. The 1.1 in this instance is saying that for an unresearched blueprint, we get 10% extra minerals required to build one batch.
Waste reduction
This is a progressively decreasing saving. The biggest returns are in the lower mineral research levels.
Researching to ME 1 actually halves your waste. You will notice big initial savings in the required minerals for each blueprint that you go from ME zero to ME 1. The more you research the less benefit you will see.
Wastage Factor = Original Blueprint Wastage Factor / (1 + ME level)
This is all you need to see the effects of waste and research on mineral use.
For example on the Iridium Charge L blueprint (I have removed decimal places, as they are rounded down):
(1+WasteFactor)*(PerfectMineralAmount*(1.25-0.05*PESkillLevel))
At Production Efficiency 0:
ME 0: (1+(0.1/(1+0))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x0)) = 632
ME 1: (1+(0.1/(1+1))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x0)) = 603
ME 2: (1+(0.1/(1+2))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x0)) = 594
ME 3: (1+(0.1/(1+3))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x0)) = 589
ME 4: (1+(0.1/(1+4))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x0)) = 586
At Production Efficiency 5:
ME 0: (1+(0.1/(1+0))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x5)) = 506
ME 1: (1+(0.1/(1+1))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x5)) = 483
ME 2: (1+(0.1/(1+2))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x5)) = 475
ME 3: (1+(0.1/(1+3))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x5)) = 471
ME 4: (1+(0.1/(1+4))) x (460x(1.25-0.05x5)) = 469
Your PE level does affect the quantity of waste if thats what you are asking? If your PE level is low, the Waste Factor may impact you much more then if your PE level is higher.
Is that more helpful?
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.05 17:02:00 -
[17]
Indeed it is =) thank you. I will try this out and see how i make it work in my spread sheet. (i might come back with more questions hehe)
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.06 06:18:00 -
[18]
Ok it seems like i atleast get your numbers on your example in my spread sheet.
When i put in "Perfect" Tritanium amount on a ME0 Rifter BP i get following numbers for this:
ME0 =ROUNDDOWN((1+(0,1/(1+0)))*(22576*(1,25-0,05*0))) = 31042 tritanium.
What i dont understand now is that. When i with a char that have PE0 looks at this ME0 Rifter BP and read the You: usage for tritanium it says i will be using 28221 tritanium. ??
How can this be, is it the BP that is right or the spreadsheet ?
Following is "Perfect" for this BP:
Tritanium - 22576
Pyrite - 6082
Mexallon - 2025
Isogen - 349
Nocxium - 130
Zydrin - 14
Megacyte - 1
Following is the "You" (PE0 char)
Tritanium - 28221
Pyrite - 7602
Mexallon - 2531
Isogen - 436
Nocxium - 162
Zydrin - 18
Megacyte - 1
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.06 11:34:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Ruffles on 06/01/2004 11:53:06
/emote chuckles
Ok, you just fell foul of what I thought you would. I fell foul of that exact same thing originally, which is why I stopped and worked out the maths.
Sadly, like I mentioned earlier, the Perfect statement on the blueprint is incorrect and bad choice of words. What that Perfect means is what you would get if you had PE5. So for PE5 and the waste factor provided, you will end up with the values displayed.
ME0 =ROUNDDOWN((1+(0,1/(1+0)))*(<Unknown>*(1,25-0,05*5))) = 22576 tritanium
If you take that raw 22576 information on a blueprint, and do the following:
= (PE5 Mineral Value) / (1 + Waste Factor)
= 22576 / (1 + 0.1)
= 20523.636363 (which we round up in this case)
= 20524
Now, this is the actualy perfection number. You can never ever build a Rifter with less Tritanium then 20524. So, lets take this value and substitute it into the calculations.
=ROUNDDOWN((1+(0,1/(1+0)))*(20524*(1,25-0,05*5))) = 22576 tritanium
And there you have your result for PE5. It will be correct.
It is this 20524 that is the basis of all calculations performed to derive the required values.
Now you know how to work out this value.
Now you know how to substitute it into the forumla to get the Required values.
That should do everything you need now
Does that make sense? You see how I am getting to these values that Ariemeth and I talk about?
Just to demonstrate, the PE0 version should result in:
=ROUNDDOWN((1+(0,1/(1+0)))*(20524*(1,25-0,05*0))) = 28220 tritanium
(PS The 28221 is incorrectly rounded up. I have the Rifter BP too and can confirm this 28220 is correct when someone with PE0 would build)
Now try to work through this process like I have shown, and perform it for Pyerite, Mexallon, Isogen, Nocxium, Zydrine, and Megacyte. See what values you arrive at.
Just for your reference, to see if when you do your maths to work out the minimum values, compare to these values (which are what I accept to be the minimum values I use in my calculations):
Tritanium: 20,524
Pyerite: 5,529
Mexallon: 1,841
Isogen: 317
Nocxium: 118
Zydrine: 13
Megacyte: 1
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.06 15:09:00 -
[20]
Im so looking forward to come home from work and actualy be able to forcast the mineral usage on all my BP's. To see how long i should research them and to what profit. =)
I think i have it now and its all thanks to you my friend =) I have been sweting over this spreadsheet for 3 wheeks now.
Ill let you know here how it went.
Thank you :)
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.06 16:18:00 -
[21]
I haven't released my spredsheet because, mainly, I am aiming to turn it into a nice little client-side application you can run on your PC.
Put in a customers order, or lots of customers orders, and then predict exactly what minerals you need to source to cope with your orders. Etc...
Real life work time permitting...
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.06 17:00:00 -
[22]
I have it working =)))))
(i read something about drones, is it just to change the base waste factor to 0,05 ?)
Expect your Z to flash soon.
Thank you so verry much
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.06 17:15:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Zarquon Beeblebrox on 06/01/2004 17:16:21
A litle double checking and i find one error compared with your numbers. The zydrin is droping to 12 at ME lvl 4 , and mega to 0 (iv added two decimals to show why. (this is with PE5)
Tritanium 20934,11
Pyrite 5639,67
Mexallon 1877,73
Isogen 323,62
Nocxium 120,55
Zydrin 12,98
Megacyte 0,93
So you see when i add ROUNDDOWN() it gives me 12 zyd at ME4.
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.01.06 18:29:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Ruffles on 06/01/2004 18:33:02
Have you tried using my numbers in place to see if they work correctly?
If I was you, I would split the work that calculates the Waste Factor into a seperate Cell. Perhaps have three cells:
Original Blueprint Waste Factor
Mineral Level
Wastage Factor (calculated from using the above two's information)
Add the result from this Waste Factor calculation to the equation like so:
ROUNDDOWN((1+WasteFactor)*(MineralMinimum*(1,25-0,05*0)))
That looks spot on still, so I can only assume there was some fun with the Waste Factor stuff.
Nothing should be falling below 1.
I am sure you will get it
Ohh yeah, hint for you. The Max Research you should need to do on any blueprint is the highest waste figure, if that blueprint is a 0.1 blueprint. 1/2 if its a 0.05 blueprint:
Tritanium: 22576-20524 = 2052 max research to be waste free
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Zarquon Beeblebrox
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Posted - 2004.01.06 18:41:00 -
[25]
Check it out =)
http://lv8pv.com/~lv8pv/Rifter.xls
--
Lady Beeblebrox
Teddybears movies
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NomadLord
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Posted - 2004.01.25 18:35:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Check it out =)
http://lv8pv.com/~lv8pv/Rifter.xls
Great work!!!
i would put this on sticky
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Nirces Y'Tuk
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Posted - 2004.01.26 15:23:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Nirces Y'Tuk on 26/01/2004 15:28:58
I've also done my own sheet, before i read this
its at SpreadSheet
it contains info for 70+ items, PL factoring doesn;t work, Refine Sheet is missing some basic ore values
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NomadLord
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Posted - 2004.01.26 21:27:00 -
[28]
:-)
nice thanks m8;i've done some work with both and i find them both veru usefull
guys has someone thought of doing a tool in VB?
keep up the good work!
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Naran Darkmood
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Posted - 2004.02.04 19:15:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Naran Darkmood on 04/02/2004 19:17:20
I had a very interesting thing just to add things up:
I bought a Thorax BPc ME10,
I look at the infos and it showed two minerals amount:
You and Perfect.
the You-amount was 25 % higher than the Perfect one, which is strange as I have PE5. After swapping ships, the 'You' column vanished, and after installing the BPc in a Factory slot, it just requiered the previously as Perfect listed minerals...
Very stragen here, isn't it? 
EDIT: some spelling
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The following bonuses may be awarded to you:
27 units of Basic Expanded Cargohold at if you complete the mission |
Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.02.05 08:46:00 -
[30]
Indeed, it seems to be a display bug associated with change of ship.
It doesn't seem to affect building, as when you install a blueprint it still seems to work with the right minerals 
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