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Nemotal	Posted - 2007.04.16 17:12:00 - [1] I know these monkeys exist, i see them all the time and I want to buy one. My primary interest lies in dissection, I am extremely interested in discovering what it is that drives these market monkeys to undercut lucrative deals by hundreds of thousands if not millions of isk. I've witnessed entire crashes fueled by these monkeys and I want to help them recover from their malady. Please help, dissect a monkey today!
Haffrage Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.04.16 19:25:00 - [2] i did that with T2 webs to accelerate the jita prices to being below fleetings. But for that I had a logic going :P ----- Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers
Brisi Veto.	Posted - 2007.04.16 21:25:00 - [3] Edited by: Brisi on 16/04/2007 21:21:30 Personally I do it sometimes to crash the prices. I hate the people who undercuts the price by 0.01 isk. So I do it to **** them off (i.e you). If prices are too high, just undercut the current lowest of say EANM II's by 1m, and put 10 mods for sale. Within 2 days the average price of EANM II's have dropped by at least about a mil. I don't lose isk because I bought them below my saleprice. I am aware that technically I am losing out, since I could be selling them higher, but that's not my concern tbh. My concern is cheaper mods. It doesn't always work, but it does often. Too bad that you feel cheated out of your precious isk, but such is EVE. Resistance is Fertile.
Guizzy Time Cube Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.16 21:40:00 - [4] Geez, is there a day without someone whining about this? You see, most market economies are affected by the phenomena we call the Tragedy of the Commons. There is a limited amount of prospective buyers, and an unlimited greed on the part of us, the traders and producers. Of course, if we all agreed together to limit our undercutting to keep profits high, most of us would end up richer in the long run, yes. But how can you expect me to limit my short-term profits when there's no guarantee for me that you won't go as far as to ruin a market for short-term profits? We're all in here for the money, and undercutting by large amounts is merely about cashing out on a market before someone else does and you end up with next to no profit margin. Therefore, don't think about the profits we could be making if we cooperated; we are too many to form a oligopoly. Think about the profits you could make right now before it's too late.
Nemotal	Posted - 2007.04.17 09:14:00 - [5] oh, i'm sorry.. perhaps the humour was a bit lost on you? I really don't care, i'm quite happy for people to do this to their own markets, i'm just passing through.. made my money, recovering capital and heading on to something else. If i'm honest, I find it hilarious that there are people daft enough to destroy their pet markets for the sake of one sale :]
Trilori Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.17 15:41:00 - [6] I always undercut, like someone said I'm not worried about losing out on the iskies because I've bought it below the price that I'm undercutting at. For example I bought 3 kestrel BPOs for 2m and resold them for 3.1m each when the highest was 3.2m and now when I went to go look at the market trends the prices have fallen to 2.8m at this time I would not try to undercut because now the margin is smaller. I also undercut when I sell my stuff that come from loot. The reason I undercut is I get my isk faster this way and because its not a huge deal to me if I lose 500k-1m or even 2m depending on how high the prices are.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.04.17 20:00:00 - [7] I crash markets to drive out competition and assist friends in obtaining and maintaining cheap ship setups. pure and simple. I cannot stand .01 undercuts as well and will crash a market just to prove a point. It's the principalities of the matter you see.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.04.17 20:49:00 - [8] I've made absolutely ludicrous amounts of ISK by doing exactly what the OP is whining about. I intentionally undercut everyone and I out-price everyone on the other end. If you don't like it then that is an added bonus I've was accused of destroying the market for a module 6 months ago. To this day I still make the exact same amount of money per day on that module... even tho its price is 1/3 of what it used to be. As long as I'm making good money I could care less if others are not. In fact I am hopefully that others are not. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
damalos	Posted - 2007.04.17 21:10:00 - [9] gotta love market pvp, wouldnt be fun without it, i undercut by an isk somtimes and others times alot more depending on how much isk ill still make from an item. If someone crashes an item to much i just leave it alone till it recovers theres plenty of other things to sell.
Ash Donai	Posted - 2007.04.17 21:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Nemotal I am extremely interested in discovering what it is that drives these market monkeys to undercut lucrative deals by hundreds of thousands if not millions of isk. Reason #1: No one ever went broke making a profit. (Note that the reason does not include the amount of profit!) Reason #2: ISK tied up in modules that sit on the market and eventually sell for 300% profit on that module does not make me as much money as ISK that I make from 30% profit where I am able to recover the ISK within the hour. Simplified example: Bought module01 for 1mil. Sold module01 for 4mil after 24 hours on the market. ROI on 1mil = 125k per hour. Bought module01 for 1mil, sold module01 for 1.3mil within 1 hour. (300k accumulated profit, 1 hour spent) Bought module02 for 1mil, sold module02 for 1.3mil within 1 hour. (600k accumulated profit, 2 hours spent) Bought module03 for 1mil, sold module03 for 1.3mil within 1 hour. (900k accumulated profit, 3 hours spent) Bought module04 for 1mil, sold module04 for 1.3mil within 1 hour. (1200k accumulated profit, 4 hours spent) ... Bought module24 for 1mil, sold module24 for 1.3mil within 1 hour. (7200k accumulated profit, 24 hours spent) ROI on 1mil = 300k per hour. Please note that the above is extremely simplified (and not taking into account reinvestment of profits which will further increase the ROI/hour in the second example). It is understood that other factors play a part on ROI/hour. However, the concept still holds true that selling more items at lower prices than the competition will result in larger profits, and that is really the bottom line. Undercutters make more profit overall.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.04.17 23:08:00 - [11] Also, don't forget that undercutting significantly may cause other traders to buy out your stock and relist it for their own profit. I was once competing on decryptors that I was selling at 21mil and someone else listed 25 for 5mil. I bought them out and within 1 minute, there were 25 more on the market for 5mil each again. I bought them out again and it happened again. I eventually just lowered my price to 9mil and left the market alone. People bought up all of his over the course of a few days, then they bought mine. If demand had been lower and prices had dropped, I would have made quite a loss. Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.04.18 00:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Nyphur Also, don't forget that undercutting significantly may cause other traders to buy out your stock and relist it for their own profit. I was once competing on decryptors that I was selling at 21mil and someone else listed 25 for 5mil. I bought them out and within 1 minute, there were 25 more on the market for 5mil each again. I bought them out again and it happened again. I eventually just lowered my price to 9mil and left the market alone. People bought up all of his over the course of a few days, then they bought mine. If demand had been lower and prices had dropped, I would have made quite a loss. I've been involved in similar situations. You start to get worried as you keep buying out the new items they place on the market. Then it becomes a judgment call as to whether you should keep buying or try to bail out. The most recent time I decided I'd buy 1 more set of items from the person... and luckily that was the last set they put up... meaning I made 300% profit on 10 times the quantity of items I would get in a week generally. It was quite the windfall. Of course previously I've lost quite a lot when the supply got way too large. On the other side I LOVE resellers who buy out my items. If I'm making what I consider to be a large margin and someone else is constantly buying mine out then thats fine with me. Especially when I'm getting tons more supplied to me throughout the day. If they can make another 10-20% or more on top of what I am making then more power to em... I don't always have that much time to put towards each item. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.04.18 04:18:00 - [13] Originally by: Shadarle Originally by: Nyphur Also, don't forget that undercutting significantly may cause other traders to buy out your stock and relist it for their own profit. I was once competing on decryptors that I was selling at 21mil and someone else listed 25 for 5mil. I bought them out and within 1 minute, there were 25 more on the market for 5mil each again. I bought them out again and it happened again. I eventually just lowered my price to 9mil and left the market alone. People bought up all of his over the course of a few days, then they bought mine. If demand had been lower and prices had dropped, I would have made quite a loss. I've been involved in similar situations. You start to get worried as you keep buying out the new items they place on the market. Then it becomes a judgment call as to whether you should keep buying or try to bail out. The most recent time I decided I'd buy 1 more set of items from the person... and luckily that was the last set they put up... meaning I made 300% profit on 10 times the quantity of items I would get in a week generally. It was quite the windfall. Of course previously I've lost quite a lot when the supply got way too large. On the other side I LOVE resellers who buy out my items. If I'm making what I consider to be a large margin and someone else is constantly buying mine out then thats fine with me. Especially when I'm getting tons more supplied to me throughout the day. If they can make another 10-20% or more on top of what I am making then more power to em... I don't always have that much time to put towards each item. Agreed, I deal with this a lot and often times see the same character purchasing items and placing them for resale. Often times it's a much smaller trader in the region who is limited in scope compared to me. you see this kind of market action on frigates quite often
Kldraina	Posted - 2007.04.18 09:25:00 - [14] Edited by: Kldraina on 18/04/2007 09:22:28 I enjoy playing with the market. This sometimes involves messing with prices just to see what happens. As long as I don't lose more than I make, I don't worry too much about maxing profits. Edit: Unfortunately, the market is so complicated that it can be very hard to tell how much of what happens is the result of my meddling, and how much is just the market reacting to other conditions. --- Most players have no idea what makes a game good.
DragonRiderTao	Posted - 2007.04.19 04:14:00 - [15] Most stuff is severely overpriced. The benefits of selling below your prices are multiple. First is the obvious sales. Also when someone thinks they are helping the underdog trader by buying from you I get paid your price. Next is that I will see you either selling below manufacturing price or moving into your other branches of isk prints. If you try to sell below manufacturing cost I have got you. If supply increases somewhere at the same time you stopped selling the first item then I know it is you. I now have the upper hand. The consumer deserves prices much closer to the mineral costs. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine.
Algorithm 5 Caldari Hakata Group Xelas Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.19 06:46:00 - [16] Edited by: Algorithm 5 on 19/04/2007 06:44:18 I do sell order price crashing sometimes because the market has gone fundamentally broken. For example, there's a 50% spread in the buy/sell price, with 10 people undercutting with razor thin margins, but if you look on the market history panel, you can see that almost nobody is buying from the sell orders, and 95% of the traffic is on the buy side. Since I have a bunch of stuff to sell, I'll instigate a sell order "correction". Most often I'll split the difference between buy and sell. Not only does this help correct the sell side, but for a short period it looks like I'm giving people an amazing deal, and they'll buy my stuff, even if it's more than what the actual market average is at. In short, you have to understand that most often the market has in innate price. If all the sell orders are undercutting by 0.01 and none of them are realizing nobody is selling anything, it's up to me to wake them up and get the sell price closer to the "real" price, so people will actually buy my stuff. :) The price isn't "real" unless someone is actually paying for it. The orders listed on the market aren't the real price, they are on either side of it.
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2007.04.20 03:54:00 - [17] And I will happily buy you out, reprocess everything you sold, and recover the market. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I crash markets to drive out competition and assist friends in obtaining and maintaining cheap ship setups. pure and simple. I cannot stand .01 undercuts as well and will crash a market just to prove a point. It's the principalities of the matter you see.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.04.20 13:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Elderberry Whine And I will happily buy you out, reprocess everything you sold, and recover the market. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I crash markets to drive out competition and assist friends in obtaining and maintaining cheap ship setups. pure and simple. I cannot stand .01 undercuts as well and will crash a market just to prove a point. It's the principalities of the matter you see. This is of course assuming you have the capital to play market chicken with me, whoever can go the longest really. Such is the risks of trading.
Foxy Cleopatra Caldari Carnivore Ince	Posted - 2007.04.21 08:05:00 - [19] Well after reading some of the replies to the OP and the arguments presented, I must say the OP has rightfully named the thread title 'Market MONKEYS'.
DragonRiderTao	Posted - 2007.04.21 14:45:00 - [20] Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Elderberry Whine And I will happily buy you out, reprocess everything you sold, and recover the market. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I crash markets to drive out competition and assist friends in obtaining and maintaining cheap ship setups. pure and simple. I cannot stand .01 undercuts as well and will crash a market just to prove a point. It's the principalities of the matter you see. This is of course assuming you have the capital to play market chicken with me, whoever can go the longest really. Such is the risks of trading. More diversified player wins. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine.
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2007.04.22 03:14:00 - [21] Originally by: DragonRiderTao Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Elderberry Whine And I will happily buy you out, reprocess everything you sold, and recover the market. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I crash markets to drive out competition and assist friends in obtaining and maintaining cheap ship setups. pure and simple. I cannot stand .01 undercuts as well and will crash a market just to prove a point. It's the principalities of the matter you see. This is of course assuming you have the capital to play market chicken with me, whoever can go the longest really. Such is the risks of trading. More diversified player wins. Like I said.. it's the risks you take as a trader. Never really know the extent of resource or the specialization of the trader you are going up against. That's the game though.
Grampsie	Posted - 2007.04.22 04:53:00 - [22] Purely accidental and for a few minutes felt physically sick :( Put items to sell on market at 3.9m isk unfortunately the went for 3.9 isk that hurt :(
Dynomite Space Monkeys	Posted - 2007.04.23 22:23:00 - [23] You are weak. You can sense the power of the market and yet you tremble before it. I smell your fear. I will undercut your prices by as much as I want. Those of you who undercut by .01isk are still hidding under your mothers skirts. You are unworthy of anything but my contempt. If you don't like my low prices you may purchase my goods and mark them up all you want. The Market will ballance out all things. Dynomite CEO Space Monkeys
Pang Grohl Gallente	Posted - 2007.04.23 22:38:00 - [24] Originally by: DragonRiderTao Most stuff is severely overpriced. Originally by: DragonRiderTao The consumer deserves prices much closer to the mineral costs. The consumer deserves to pay how ever much he thinks an item is worth, usually based on his perception of how much said item enriches his life. Producers deserve to sell an item for enough to make it worth his effort to produce that item in excess of his own needs. The only reason undercutting works is that there is no inherent in-game cost to perpetuating you existence as a pod-pilot. In other words no one has to make a living (food, shelter, etc). Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
DragonRiderTao	Posted - 2007.04.24 00:22:00 - [25] Originally by: Pang Grohl Originally by: DragonRiderTao Most stuff is severely overpriced. Originally by: DragonRiderTao The consumer deserves prices much closer to the mineral costs. The consumer deserves to pay how ever much he thinks an item is worth, usually based on his perception of how much said item enriches his life. Producers deserve to sell an item for enough to make it worth his effort to produce that item in excess of his own needs. The only reason undercutting works is that there is no inherent in-game cost to perpetuating you existence as a pod-pilot. In other words no one has to make a living (food, shelter, etc). It would be great if food became an issue. A needed time sink for CCP to implement. Too bad all the pvp newbs would crai. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine.
Elderberry Whine	Posted - 2007.04.25 00:01:00 - [26] Actually, with the reprocessed minerals you sell to me below market, I build and sell expensive items in other markets... Originally by: Kazzac Elentria Originally by: Elderberry Whine And I will happily buy you out, reprocess everything you sold, and recover the market. Originally by: Kazzac Elentria I crash markets to drive out competition and assist friends in obtaining and maintaining cheap ship setups. pure and simple. I cannot stand .01 undercuts as well and will crash a market just to prove a point. It's the principalities of the matter you see. This is of course assuming you have the capital to play market chicken with me, whoever can go the longest really. Such is the risks of trading.
Shameless Avenger	Posted - 2007.04.26 04:50:00 - [27] Ok, I'm in miner mode now. Let's say I have 500M worth on minerals. I'm going to sell but all mineral buy orders are for -15% of mineral value. A quick search on the market reveals an item that's selling well with a 10% profit. I build the stuff and sell at 5% profit. It may hurt the manufacturers, but who placed the -15% buy order in the first place? A trader could buy all my stock and resell for the aditional 5% but I don't care because +5% > -15%. In fact, I welcome those traders, thanks to them I have my money faster.

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