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Remco Dekker	Posted - 2007.04.17 06:41:00 - [1] Just a simple question after having some kind of alcohol related brainwave Do all those containers in the belts also add up to the lag issue? I guess there are a lot of those containers out there and i¦m sure many of them are not used any more. It would be nice to see some kind of change, so that containers have a maximum lifetime. Maybe even skill related. That certain skill to lvl 1 means you container will last for a month and after a month it goes ¦poof¦. Just like if you make a normal can, when you jettison something. (Only those last for 1-2 hours) And training that skill to lvl 2 means that your container will last 2 months.....and so on.... Would this be a good idea or even possible?
Callthetruth Caldari Logical Logtistics	Posted - 2007.04.17 06:45:00 - [2] ive been removing shuttles and drones out of abandoned mission sites lots of t1 a good smattering of t2 does it reduce lag unsure
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.17 07:48:00 - [3] Is it lag or stutter that you are talking about? What is nature of the problem you are calling lag? And are you concerned about when they are visible to you or for server wide impact?
Remco Dekker	Posted - 2007.04.17 08:23:00 - [4] Edited by: Remco Dekker on 17/04/2007 08:20:44 Edited by: Remco Dekker on 17/04/2007 08:20:07 Originally by: Solbright Is it lag or stutter that you are talking about? What is nature of the problem you are calling lag? And are you concerned about when they are visible to you or for server wide impact? I guess it¦s more the stutter than real lag. When you are in a belt (mining for instance), there is some kind of stutter and screen freezes for 1-2 seconds. Looks like the server has to think / recalculate all the stuff that is in the belt(s) So, only conserned about the impact it has in the whole server
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.17 09:58:00 - [5] What you're really concerned about is the screen freezing up. You specified it's the local view that sucks so server wide lag is both not what you're concerned about nor is it involved in stutter. Is it just at belts? How about floating outside the station or inside? There is a good chance you are dealing with a problem outside of Eve altogether. Multi-core thrashing could be one possibilty, also applies to hyperthreading. Or a virus scanner in the background is another one.
Spenz Gallente FIRMA Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.04.17 10:52:00 - [6] You would think CCP would have removed abandoned cans for their vaunted need for speed initiative. They dont. They have removed everything else such as drones and bookmarks, bought bigger servers, switched agents around and have closed off highway junctions in empire. They are even going to reduce NPC's in missions... ...but are they going to remove the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of abandoned jet cans that are forever in space, clogging asteroid belts and marking station exits and stargate? My magic 8-ball indicates that it is doubtful. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Effy Arrtee	Posted - 2007.04.17 10:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Spenz You would think CCP would have removed abandoned cans for their vaunted need for speed initiative. They dont. They have removed everything else such as drones and bookmarks, bought bigger servers, switched agents around and have closed off highway junctions in empire. They are even going to reduce NPC's in missions... ...but are they going to remove the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of abandoned jet cans that are forever in space, clogging asteroid belts and marking station exits and stargate? My magic 8-ball indicates that it is doubtful. Which kinda indicates that they do not cause lag. Because I'm sure if removing cans did make an impact on the lag they would be gone.
Remco Dekker	Posted - 2007.04.17 15:46:00 - [8] Originally by: Solbright Is it just at belts? How about floating outside the station or inside? 1) its not my PC or virusscanner or what so ever...... 2) its not at stations, moons. Only in the belts. 3) since the can dumping bussines begun, the stuttering also begun. I'm positively sure that al that extra data in the belts (container type, different long names of the cans, position of cans, configuration of can, etc) is causing this screen freeze or lag or what ever you want to call it. Not to mention the fact that it's irritating as hell to see all those yellow cans out there and getting in the way of your bussines If CCP could find it in their heart to think about this problem, i would be satisfied
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.04.17 15:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Effy Arrtee Which kinda indicates that they do not cause lag. Because I'm sure if removing cans did make an impact on the lag they would be gone. How could they not cause lag? Everytime you warp into an area the servers are queried about what objects are on the grid and returned to your PC for rendering (including the nifty slogans people name their cans with). I certainly notice a longer than normal lag upon entering a belt with many cans in it than at places with few or no cans. Even if the lag induced by these things is inconsequential in the larger scheme of the EVE servers they should still be cleaned up as they are a blight on the universe. I wholly agree with others that they should be given a finite lifespan. That lifespan can be lengthy (a month or two) and they lifespan should be "reset" each time they are accessed to cans that are used remain but the rest will and should go away.
Fzoul KAOS.	Posted - 2007.04.17 15:59:00 - [10] There is already a two-hour limit on jetcans before they pop. Make a limit on all cans, just make it longer. Secure containers pop after seven days, or something like that. There has been a can outside a station in Heimatar that has been there since I first started playing, and the amount of "join my awsome-uber-corp" containers around every gate in empire is also fairly annoying.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.04.17 16:01:00 - [11] Originally by: Remco Dekker I'm positively sure that al that extra data in the belts (container type, different long names of the cans, position of cans, configuration of can, etc) is causing this screen freeze or lag or what ever you want to call it. This is true. Any data that must be queried, processed and sent to the client must be dealt with. Every extra 'thing' consumes CPU and bandwidth on both client and server. Extra data in the data base does not in it self contribute to lag however. The Eve DB is on a RAM SAN, as far as I know, so the slowest part of a server, the hard drive, is mitigated significantly. Do ten cans in one belt cause significant lag, no, not really. But do 10 cans in 5,000 belts, each visitied by 10-100 people a day cause load - sure. -AS
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.04.17 17:28:00 - [12] found an unanchored secure can floating in a belt in 0.0 not so long ago. inside was some true sansha loot and t2 ammo, which was nice :)
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.17 23:23:00 - [13] Originally by: Remco Dekker 2) its not at stations, moons. Only in the belts. Good. Ok, you are concerned about a stutter while mining in a high object count belt. Quote: 3) since the can dumping bussines begun, the stuttering also begun. There was a time it didn't happen? Quote: I'm positively sure that al that extra data in the belts (container type, different long names of the cans, position of cans, configuration of can, etc) is causing this screen freeze or lag or what ever you want to call it. It will add a little bit extra to the loadup you experience when warping in but other than that there is nothing extra while operating in the belt. What is happening is the client is struggling to render the picture for you at a faster enough rate. And anything extra will cause a stutter. No network transactions are even needed but when it does arrive your client has to stop rendering to sort it out. Quote: Not to mention the fact that it's irritating as hell to see all those yellow cans out there and getting in the way of your bussines Well, that's another matter altogether.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.17 23:30:00 - [14] As for the look. I think they look kind of neat, some are in zipper fashion some are more bunched. Adds a bit of variety. It's not like the belts are very exciting to look at.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.04.17 23:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Remco Dekker I'm positively sure that al that extra data in the belts (container type, different long names of the cans, position of cans, configuration of can, etc) is causing this screen freeze or lag or what ever you want to call it. This is true. Any data that must be queried, processed and sent to the client must be dealt with. Every extra 'thing' consumes CPU and bandwidth on both client and server. Extra data in the data base does not in it self contribute to lag however. The Eve DB is on a RAM SAN, as far as I know, so the slowest part of a server, the hard drive, is mitigated significantly. Do ten cans in one belt cause significant lag, no, not really. But do 10 cans in 5,000 belts, each visitied by 10-100 people a day cause load - sure. But, in some systems.... how about 250 cans in a belt, 20 belts in a system. However, it's a moot point really, people have been begging for this one for well over a year and it hasn't even made it to the point of a dev acknowleding it as an issue. I don't think any of them have ever posted in a thread related to this problem, so the assumption is that it's a lower priority than the bounty system.
Lenaria Caldari Draconis Navitas Aeterna	Posted - 2007.04.18 01:24:00 - [16] Originally by: Siege Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Remco Dekker But, in some systems.... how about 250 cans in a belt, 20 belts in a system. However, it's a moot point really, people have been begging for this one for well over a year and it hasn't even made it to the point of a dev acknowleding it as an issue. I don't think any of them have ever posted in a thread related to this problem, so the assumption is that it's a lower priority than the bounty system. How about 250 asteroids in EACH of these 20 belts? Every asteroid cause about as much lag as container, probabaly even more client-side as asteroid being big and shining.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Freelancer Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.18 01:30:00 - [17] Originally by: Lenaria Originally by: Siege Originally by: Adunh Slavy Originally by: Remco Dekker But, in some systems.... how about 250 cans in a belt, 20 belts in a system. However, it's a moot point really, people have been begging for this one for well over a year and it hasn't even made it to the point of a dev acknowleding it as an issue. I don't think any of them have ever posted in a thread related to this problem, so the assumption is that it's a lower priority than the bounty system. How about 250 asteroids in EACH of these 20 belts? Every asteroid cause about as much lag as container, probabaly even more client-side as asteroid being big and shining. Yah, but asteroids have a point. We can tolerate their lag because they do something useful- 20 cans belonging to some player who quit in 2005 does no-one any good, its just litter. --------
Remco Dekker	Posted - 2007.04.18 06:39:00 - [18] Edited by: Remco Dekker on 18/04/2007 06:41:02 Edited by: Remco Dekker on 18/04/2007 06:37:00 Originally by: Solbright Originally by: Remco Dekker 2) its not at stations, moons. Only in the belts. Good. Ok, you are concerned about a stutter while mining in a high object count belt. *INDEED, and that would be every belt these days, really* Quote: 3) since the can dumping bussines begun, the stuttering also begun. There was a time it didn't happen? I can remember a time when i used to mine in Abudban, when i just started playing this game in 2005. Had no problems then, no containers in belts. Quote: I'm positively sure that al that extra data in the belts (container type, different long names of the cans, position of cans, configuration of can, etc) is causing this screen freeze or lag or what ever you want to call it. It will add a little bit extra to the loadup you experience when warping in but other than that there is nothing extra while operating in the belt. What is happening is the client is struggling to render the picture for you at a faster enough rate. And anything extra will cause a stutter. No network transactions are even needed but when it does arrive your client has to stop rendering to sort it out. *Its not just one time, the stuttering is every 5 mins or so.* Quote: Not to mention the fact that it's irritating as hell to see all those yellow cans out there and getting in the way of your bussines Well, that's another matter altogether. BUT TRUE, and i guess you¦re the only one that likes the sight of zillion yellow cans in a belt
The'Rabbit Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.04.18 07:01:00 - [19] Well i'm not sure how many systems/region this would effect, but has any of you done a scan in & around FIX/BoB space... People need to clean up after them
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.04.18 07:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Remco Dekker Edited by: Remco Dekker on 17/04/2007 08:20:44 Edited by: Remco Dekker on 17/04/2007 08:20:07 Originally by: Solbright Is it lag or stutter that you are talking about? What is nature of the problem you are calling lag? And are you concerned about when they are visible to you or for server wide impact? I guess it¦s more the stutter than real lag. When you are in a belt (mining for instance), there is some kind of stutter and screen freezes for 1-2 seconds. Looks like the server has to think / recalculate all the stuff that is in the belt(s) So, only conserned about the impact it has in the whole server sounds more like the writing process of chat logs to the hdd that clogs up the system every few seconds for a fery brief moment - becomes worse with every overchieving channel you add: once i left "eve radio" and another similarly frequented blah-blob, my stuttering went away
Fto Cruise	Posted - 2007.04.18 08:46:00 - [21] I don't know if it adds to lag or not, but your idea should be implemented anyway. Or, maybe they don't stay secure forever, giving an incentive to remove them or at least their contents before they get removed by other players. The percentage of players that bother to clean up their secure cans when finished with is likely to be very small, I find it difficult to remember where I left them half the time!
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.18 11:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Roemy Schneider sounds more like the writing process of chat logs to the hdd that clogs up the system every few seconds for a fery brief moment - becomes worse with every overchieving channel you add Good point. It has been noted before that Eve badly handles it's disc accesses - causing stutter.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.18 11:27:00 - [23] Originally by: Patch86 Yah, but asteroids have a point. We can tolerate their lag because they do something useful- 20 cans belonging to some player who quit in 2005 does no-one any good, its just litter. Never going to be a real problem for lag. They have to be 5 km apart so there will never be huge numbers in one place. However, I can understand not being able to setup your own secure cans in range would be very annoying.
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.18 11:40:00 - [24] Originally by: Remco Dekker Originally by: Solbright It will add a little bit extra to the loadup you experience when warping in but other than that there is nothing extra while operating in the belt. What is happening is the client is struggling to render the picture for you at a faster enough rate. And anything extra will cause a stutter. No network transactions are even needed but when it does arrive your client has to stop rendering to sort it out. Its not just one time, the stuttering is every 5 mins or so. Yep, I ment on a regular basis, eg: When a mining laser cycles there will be a server transaction leading to a possible stutter. As obsevered by Roemy there is many technical reasons why stutter happens. Cans may highlight the issue but they are not the root cause. It really comes down to sloppy coding of the client itself. I've got my figures crossed that CCP are working on the general problem, as it affects far more than just an annoying glitch while mining.
Remco Dekker	Posted - 2007.04.18 12:24:00 - [25] Nice to see all the feedback regarding the subject. I guess more pilots are having these problems with all the containers/stuff out there. I only hope that CCP is going to look in to this if something can be done about it
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.18 12:56:00 - [26] It's not the cans. The same problem is destroying PVP atm.
Tarron Sarek Gallente Cadien Cybernetics	Posted - 2007.04.18 13:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Solbright It's not the cans. The same problem is destroying PVP atm. Blanket statements don't help here. Please give some reasoning and real arguments. Removing abandoned cans can't have any negative effects on the game, only positive ones. And it will definitely reduce data traffic. So why exactly not do it? _________________________________ - The sky is the sky wherever you go -
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.18 13:45:00 - [28] How about reading my other comments. I agree that a field full of cans can be awkward if you want to get you own ones in close. So, that reason alone has merit. Cans causing lag and stutter do not merit attention because they don't really impact in such a way. Complaining that they do is not doing any good.
Remco Dekker	Posted - 2007.04.18 14:02:00 - [29] Originally by: Solbright Cans causing lag and stutter do not merit attention because they don't really impact in such a way. You really sure about that??
Solbright	Posted - 2007.04.19 00:27:00 - [30] Very sure. Yes they do generate a low fps at the moment, and consequently stutter, but chopping out a bunch of cans to avoid a bit of stutter is near pointless when the cause of stutter already desparately needs addressed. When it is fixed the can count will cease to be a problem for lag and stutter. Which just leaves the issue of accessibility to the riods.

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