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Kana Ordos Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:07:36 - [1] - Quote Hello. I have recently returned to the game, and was considering building an Astrahus in high sec somewhere. Now, I fully understand that I am likely to lose it, but I have the disposable income, and would like to try anyway. However, I would at least like to get it online before it is taken down, which brings me to my actual question: I understand that after the 24 hour on-line timer, there is a 15 minute period where it is vulnerable, and only has its structure HP. Does this mean that if no one wardecs me within the first 15 minutes of putting it down, I will at least get it fully online without incident? Again, I understand that I will probably lose it at some point, but what else am I going to do with my ISK?
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 355	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:09:25 - [2] - Quote Well since you fully expect to lose it why not save the time and hassle, and forward the isk for the citadel to me? A case for more AoE in EvE
Kana Ordos Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:10:39 - [3] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: Well since you fully expect to lose it why not save the time and hassle, and forward the isk for the citadel to me? I knew someone would say this... lol.
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 355	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:12:22 - [4] - Quote Kana Ordos wrote: Mr Mieyli wrote: Well since you fully expect to lose it why not save the time and hassle, and forward the isk for the citadel to me? I knew someone would say this... lol. Welcome back, and good luck with your plans. I'm sure someone will be able to answer with specifics about timers for you. A case for more AoE in EvE
Eternus8lux8lucis Primus Inc. LEGIO ASTARTES ARCANUM 1201	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:14:14 - [5] - Quote The answer to the OP is yes. If you are not war decced in that time frame it will online and start the repping cycle and then will online fully with whatever timer setting you have as the first vulnerable timer. Have you heard anything I've said? You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right? That's right. Had to end sometime.
Kana Ordos Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:17:35 - [6] - Quote Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: The answer to the OP is yes. If you are not war decced in that time frame it will online and start the repping cycle and then will online fully with whatever timer setting you have as the first vulnerable timer. Thank you. That is what I thought, but I figured I had better ask first in the event I was completely missing something. What do you think are the odds of an Astrahus surviving in high-sec for any extended period of time? Are they being popped left and right, or has the novelty worn off?
Arcelian Metentis 216	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:21:48 - [7] - Quote There are literally crap tons of citadels all over high sec space, most of these owned by small corporations. While the assumption that someone is gonna come blow it up is not completely invalid, you under estimate the ass pain involved in taking down a citadel, even an Astrahus. I'd say you are reasonably safe if you just set an invulnerability timer for late at night or mid day during the work week. I had a citadel in a wormhole for several months, I was never even there for the invulnerability timer, no one touched it.
Starrakatt Celtic Anarchy The Bastard Cartel 636	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:22:36 - [8] - Quote Kana Ordos wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: The answer to the OP is yes. If you are not war decced in that time frame it will online and start the repping cycle and then will online fully with whatever timer setting you have as the first vulnerable timer. Thank you. That is what I thought, but I figured I had better ask first in the event I was completely missing something. What do you think are the odds of an Astrahus surviving in high-sec for any extended period of time? Are they being popped left and right, or has the novelty worn off? Unless you make enemies that want your citadel out of their hairs it should be fine... unless you make a point of building the thing right under the nose of everyone at the door of a trade hub, mission hub, mining hub or along a trade pipe. I see plenty of citadels all over the place that never got attacked. Sneaky bastard.
Maekchu Gunpoint Diplomacy 608	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:24:00 - [9] - Quote Yeah, most citadels (especially highsec) are quite safe, cause they are a PITA to take down and yields very little for the effort.
Kana Ordos Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:24:22 - [10] - Quote Thank you for the answers. This is what I suspected, but again... it's been a while. Never hurts to ask. Thanks again.

Scipio Artelius Savage Moon Society 46617	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:27:57 - [11] - Quote Kana Ordos wrote: What do you think are the odds of an Astrahus surviving in high-sec for any extended period of time? Are they being popped left and right, or has the novelty worn off? Not long after the introduction of Citadels, CCP published the survival rates: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6496265#post6496265 Since then, Citadels have continued to be anchored but the rate of death hasn't increased. The total numbers destroyed last year for all Citadels in highsec can be seen in these figures: https://puu.sh/thn75/570725c3c3.png So the chance of survival is well above the 90% that it previously was for an Astrahus. Exact figure we don't have, but likely to be >95% chance it'll survive unless you are an arse or somehow **** someone off.
Mai Khumm 172.0.0.1 859	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:30:03 - [12] - Quote It also depends on what you're going to be using it for. If it's just for lolz, then whatever your ISK. As NPC stations are not going away! If it's for industry, it's say stick to Engineering Complexes. Especially if it's Highsec, as no one is going to spend the time to remove it for the 700 Mil killmail...
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20159	Posted - 2017.01.17 13:30:36 - [13] - Quote Starrakatt wrote: Kana Ordos wrote: Eternus8lux8lucis wrote: The answer to the OP is yes. If you are not war decced in that time frame it will online and start the repping cycle and then will online fully with whatever timer setting you have as the first vulnerable timer. Thank you. That is what I thought, but I figured I had better ask first in the event I was completely missing something. What do you think are the odds of an Astrahus surviving in high-sec for any extended period of time? Are they being popped left and right, or has the novelty worn off? Unless you make enemies that want your citadel out of their hairs it should be fine... unless you make a point of building the thing right under the nose of everyone at the door of a trade hub, mission hub, mining hub or along a trade pipe. I see plenty of citadels all over the place that never got attacked. Confirming, if it's out of the way it's probably going to be ignored. While they're easy enough to take down , it's a bit of a pain in the arse to do so. Someone would need to be fairly motivated to bother killing it. Good example of this would be that mercenaries charge extra for the service. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Kana Ordos Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 1	Posted - 2017.01.17 14:13:12 - [14] - Quote This was exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Much appreciated.
Salvos Rhoska 1955	Posted - 2017.01.17 16:57:35 - [15] - Quote 1) Asset safety means nobody will bother unless paid to do so. Unless you pissed them off, personally. 2) Why bother paying to do so, when HS is increasingly filled with "competing" Citadels. I think the proliferation of Citadels in HS will eventually become a problem in terms of why are there so many facilities in every system, with little to no reason to blow them up. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.17 17:20:59 - [16] - Quote As to Citadels in NS, the situation is even worse. They basically fortify a system and create a lengthy, arduous process of removing them inorder to capture space. Ive never understood what CCPs long term plan with there are. Not only did they throw POS out the window, they then instituted Citadels which will just proliferate in ever larger amounts and more powerful versions, and none of which provide profit to an attacker (except in j-space). The whole im9etus of Citadels seems half-baked to me. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20161	Posted - 2017.01.17 17:24:17 - [17] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: 1) Asset safety means nobody will bother unless paid to do so. Unless you pissed them off, personally. 2) Why bother paying to do so, when HS is increasingly filled with "competing" Citadels. I think the proliferation of Citadels in HS will eventually become a problem in terms of why are there so many facilities in every system, with little to no reason to blow them up. The Holy Romi Inquisition would like to remind residants at this point that citadel's not owned by the The Devils Warrior Alliance in Romi will be burned at the space stake. We run a clean and Holy ship and we'll not have any auld dirty shacks in our staging system. Seriously , pick a system and cleanse it, it's surprisingly gratifying. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.17 17:32:21 - [18] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: Seriously , pick a system and cleanse it, it's surprisingly gratifying. I get what you mean, but how long is that going to be interesting, when there is essentially no reward for it. New Citadels will just pop up, and the grind begins again, for very little profit or advantage. Atleast POCOS are planet specific. If EVE lasted another hundred years, there will be a hundred Citadels in every HS system. I dont see what CCP is trying to achieve with this. From my perspective, it just means Citadel spam in HS, and further concretion of NS. J-space got properly shafted, as the only sector without asset safety mechanics. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.17 18:46:24 - [19] - Quote In the Keepstar M-0EE8 incident, afaik, the aggressor suffered the majority of casualties. The balance of attrition was thus against the individual participant aggressors, as weighed against the defending alliances investment in the Keepstar itself, and loss of individual defender assets during the engagement (whom eventually disengaged and gave up). Though it is an economic victory against the costs to the alliance defender (largely due to the Keepstars own value), the price of that was paid largely by individual aggressing participants, not their alliance. SRP are not comprehensive. I dont think this will remain sustainable in the long run. Players are eventually going to figure out that participating in these Citadel removal projects, repeatedly, for hours on end, is likely to cost themselves more than they are paid out, and that the actual profit from occupancy of that system (once they have grinded through all the Citadels) as successful completion, will go to the Corp and Alliance CEOs, not to them. Its a dead end system. Players that participate in these Citadel destruction missions stand to lose far more than they gain, interms of both time and isk invested. Its fiscally stupid to even bother to participate in such an action, when the profits from the result (if successful) go to someone elses pocket, whilst you personally pay the price for it. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Dracvlad Taishi Combine Second-Dawn 2785	Posted - 2017.01.17 19:02:28 - [20] - Quote I don't understand why people get so upset at them in hisec, you can remove them from your overview. I wanted one because it was my place in space, but it offered me the ability to switch clones easily for what I wanted to do, that has real value, also I intend to do some indy ones at some point. However as I (cough) have made enemies on the forums, any I put up won't last long unless I smoother a damn system with loads of them. But in reality you get annoyed because you can see them, there are quite a few that you don't see, people who do not make them usable for public view and put them way off the grid. You have to scan them down, would you be upset at them? You can't see them on your overview you know that. I get more annoyed with the Mobile depots around gates then Citadels to be honest. The un-anchoring is a pain and in fact means that you might as well just make or buy another one rather than scoop it, I have one contact who has ninja scooped 8 Astrahus, so if I put one down it stays there period until someone comes along and blows it up, if they could improve that un-anchoring a bit then you might see less of them. Romi marked off of my list of possible locations, in fact I noticed you guys there and I have also noticed that you killed one in Domain, nice fleet setup by the way... When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour. Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein

Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.17 19:11:00 - [21] - Quote Citadels in HS are completely inconsequential. They have no means of aggressing anything that isnt in their immediate vicinity, and even then, their capacity is entirely moot except as defence fleet support. Citadel competition between each other is also inconsequential, for tiny margins, in HS.Further mitigated by why do business at a Citadel that is not yours, whilst existing in a secured field of NPC stations. Asset safety means there is no risk in loss of assets in HS, even if you lose your Citadel. Its free and complete. The heuristic result of this, will be massive proliferation of Citadels in HS, with no rational reason to destroy them. In NS, even worse, as the cost of destroying an alliance level investment in a Citadel, offers no profit to aggressing individual participants, only loss. Blowing up a Keepstar earns rank participants nothing. Why bother showing up, investing time and isk, for zero reward. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 357	Posted - 2017.01.17 19:43:06 - [22] - Quote You know Salvos, the 'proliferation' of citadels in HS can't be an issue by your own reasoning. Yet they are reasons for quite a few in HS to continue being interested in eve. They now get to claim their own little chunk of a system and to be honest I can appreciate that. I can't claim to know the effect of citadels in NS however I can't imagine in what way they are different to a POS. And in my opinion structures in space represent points of conflict that can't easily be avoided. If all of eve was trying to gank pve players, who can avoid you fairly easily if they are awake, it would get old fast. A citadel can't run away, meaning the defender has to field a counter or lose the cost of the citadel, and rigs. I would prefer though that assets not be protected, but I can understand why NS players asked for that. A case for more AoE in EvE
Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.17 19:57:24 - [23] - Quote HS citadels are inconsequential. It doesnt matter if there is 1, 100 or 1000. NS citadels comprise fortified positions that impede enemy ownership of the system. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Mr Mieyli Hedion University Amarr Empire 357	Posted - 2017.01.17 20:03:36 - [24] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: HS citadels are inconsequential. It doesnt matter if there is 1, 100 or 1000. NS citadels comprise fortified positions that impede enemy ownership of the system. Again, how is this different to a POS? Structures have always been a part of NS combat, which is why they have caps, supers and titans. NS has really always been for big groups, since structures can't be quickly packed up if an attack is threatened. A case for more AoE in EvE
Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.17 20:06:49 - [25] - Quote Mr Mieyli wrote: Again, how is this different to a POS? Citadel mechanics, stats and upkeep are entirely different to POS. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
MadMuppet A Better Corp Name 1154	Posted - 2017.01.17 22:36:30 - [26] - Quote Salvos Rhoska wrote: Mr Mieyli wrote: Again, how is this different to a POS? Citadel mechanics, stats and upkeep are entirely different to POS. He does have a point here in that a POS must be fueled at all times while a Citadel requires no fuel unless running modules (market, clone bay, refining etc...) They become defacto 8-day anchors of space that require no upkeep. An offline POS can be brought down in an instant. This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD.
Ralph King-Griffin Devils Rejects 666 The Devil's Warrior Alliance 20164	Posted - 2017.01.17 22:46:24 - [27] - Quote MadMuppet wrote: Salvos Rhoska wrote: Mr Mieyli wrote: Again, how is this different to a POS? Citadel mechanics, stats and upkeep are entirely different to POS. He does have a point here in that a POS must be fueled at all times while a Citadel requires no fuel unless running modules (market, clone bay, refining etc...) They become defacto 8-day anchors of space that require no upkeep. An offline POS can be brought down in an instant. True, gime a POS teardown any day of the week, grab some navy geddons and beers, crack out the good memes and have a night of it. Even an undefended upwell thingy though takes more than a week to burn That second timers a bollix. Murderers of Negotiable Motivations Lords.Of.Midnight currently recruiting
Nat Silverguard Aideron Robotics 653	Posted - 2017.01.18 06:57:19 - [28] - Quote and a POS requires a moon to be anchored right? Just Add Water
Salvos Rhoska 1956	Posted - 2017.01.18 13:03:41 - [29] - Quote Citadels are a mess. 1) Beyond their initial cost, they are trivial in cost to maintain. 2) There is no meaningful restriction on how many Citadels there can be in a system, or where. 3) Asset safety makes aggressing a Citadel inherently unprofitable. Free magical transport, or 15% value cost? Really? 4) Vulnerability mechanics significantly favor the defender. Implications per sector: -HS: Asset safety is automatic, free and complete. There is always an NPC station nearby. As HS is not player owned, there is no reason to aggress a Citadel. There is no telling how many Citadels may proliferate in HS. -LS: Exactly as above. Though LS is more aggressive and territorial in culture, the same mechanics apply, meaning Citadel destruction benefits the aggressors only by depriving the target of the cost of the Citadel. -WH: J-space gets proper shafted by loss of POS, except as grandfathered. I am unclear on whether j-space can transfer its assets, safely, to another owned Citadel in the same system. The support info indicates yes, but I have read player testimony indicating it cant, and just drops as a cargo crate. In anycase the logistic difficult of transporting/sourcing a Citadel in j-space are disproportionate. -NS: Proliferation of Citadels in border systems constitutes fortification. I dont even want to think of the potential increase in grind required to capture a system from another NS entity. It will extend from weeks, into months, whilst all the time asset safety mechanics allow safe, free and magical transfer of assets, or for a mere 15% of value (which can potentially be gamed to transfer assets to a LS frontier on a flank). ---How long will players bother to show up to Citadel attacks, when they realize they are likely to spend hours on end in TiDi, grinding through each Citadel in a system and its defenders, risking their own ship at their own cost (despite SRP), for no profit? ---Even if the alliance/corp is successful in eventually taking the system, the profits from that system go to alliance/corp leadership, not to the rank and file participants (whom carry the loss personally). ---Due to Asset Safety mechanics, the defending alliance/corp does not lose its existing assets, except for the cost of the Citadel. This means that they can still field just as many ships/assets readily available to defend the next Citadel. Their assets, as physical, are not reduced, except by loss of the Citadel itself. Meaning resistance will be as voluminous in each Citadel defence, as in the first. They just stage out of another Citadel in the same system. ---The 5 day Asset Saftey transfer timer, doesnt matter in regards to larger Citadels. The defender has ample time to transfer assets, for free, magically, in entirety, before the next Citadel in the system is brought down. PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Dracones Tarsis Inc 54	Posted - 2017.01.18 17:33:07 - [30] - Quote On the HS front, it can make a lot more financial sense to use a larger entity's bigger station than put up your smaller one. For EC's the bonuses get better the larger they get. It doesn't make a lot of sense to put up your own raitaru when there's an azbel nearby with better bonuses and no fuel costs for you to pay. The problem is there's no real sense of ownership or control over using a third party's EC. You can setup shop there today and tomorrow it could be gone. I feel like these are meant to be social and community level assets, yet there isn't even so much as a MOTD the owners can put up to let people know "Hey, X is happening. Help or prepare for it." So people just setup their own even though it'd make a lot more financial sense if groups living in an area would just share a larger one.

Dornier Pfeil Citadel Defenders 27	Posted - 2017.01.18 18:09:10 - [31] - Quote Dracones wrote: I feel like these are meant to be social and community level assets, yet there isn't even so much as a MOTD the owners can put up to let people know "Hey, X is happening. Help or prepare for it." The player who is currently having her Citadels removed from Perimeter one by one has no trouble keeping in touch with concerned/interested parties. The tools are there, you just have to know about and use them.


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