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Falcon / Rook modification idea

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Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.20 09:29:00 - [1] Edited by: Sokratesz on 20/04/2007 09:31:05 Alright, after using both of these ships for quite awhile in pvp i must say the ECM nerf didn't hit them as bad as some people would say but they could use a little boost nonetheless. Falcon Awesome ship to fly, looks cool, sneaky, nice jamming capabilities. However, near-zero damage. In order to survive in a pvp gang situation you are pretty much obliged to fit a 1600mm plate and a cap battery and or AB/MWD, which in turn limits you to two small launchers or two small railguns and 4 or 5 jammers at most. It is also not very effective as a sneak tackler because a scram takes up a valuable midslot and too much cap (when using 20k) - you either lose alot of jamming capabilities in the form of 5 -> 4 jammers, speed in the form of yes/no to AB/MWD or durability as in yes or no to cap battery. Proposal... Give it an extra midslot..will make it more versatile and more mobile. Rook Almost as awesome. Okay damage, good jamming capabilities, but limited survival unless you give up one SDA for a 1600 plate in lows. An extra mid would make it too overpowered as an ECM boat, so i propose one of the following two modifications..: - Give it a 50 M3 drone bay to allow for one volley of medium drones, no spares, giving it damage more on par with the other races' force recons. - Give it an extra lowslot to allow people to choose between slightly more ECM strength (a third SDA) or better survivability (a plate or damage control). One of the things that bothers me most about these two, is that they need to use all their mid- and lowslots to be effective - There is absolutely no way one of these coudl fit a tank and still be effective in their role, as opposed to the Amarr and Gallente recons which can fit a pretty decent tank. I don't mind it staying like that, but a little more versatility wouldn't hurt, hence this proposal. Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
beor oranes Caldari Furious Angels	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:08:00 - [2] /signed Especially like the idea of giving the Rook a dronebay. Though the argument against giving them the ability to put on a tank is that their tank is ECM...but giving them the ability to deal more dps would be nice though. ------------------------------------------------ Either pick a dry year when fighting wars or civilize the moronic races and have no wars at all!
eXtas BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:12:00 - [3] how do u fit a tank on lachesis?
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:14:00 - [4] Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/04/2007 10:13:01 I think dronebays for jamming ships is a good idea especially for the Rook but I still think the ECM boats main issue is staying power. I think the resist bonus or large base shield capacity could be useful, especially on the Scorpion. edit: Also, alot of extra dps on an ECM boat raises balance issues. You may end up with some pretty overpowered cookie cutters soon after implementation. This is why I think a neutral "staying power" boost would be better suited to the ships roles. Rook is the exception here because I really think Caldari need one decent combat recon.
Ortu Konsinni KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:22:00 - [5] Edited by: Ortu Konsinni on 20/04/2007 10:18:37 Originally by: Sokratesz Falcon <snip> Proposal... Give it an extra midslot..will make it more versatile and more mobile. Sure... but in that case you have to give an extra slot to the other force recons, or simply move one of the Falcon's existing slots to its med slots, which would either gimp its EW strength or its high slots, which are direly lacking already. --- High quality pics of ALL EVE ships!
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:32:00 - [6] Originally by: eXtas how do u fit a tank on lachesis? Dito. The only recon which can fit a semi decent tank is the pilgrim - and that one actually needs it because it operates in the 10k area. For any other - and this includes the curse - they only tank you can fit without sacrificing EW is a LSE2.
welsh wizard 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:42:00 - [7] Edited by: welsh wizard on 20/04/2007 10:42:37 I think the issue is that all 3 other races can fit some kind of tank, moderate damage (in comparison) and still perform their Ewar role. None of them do all three brilliantly but they do do them never the less. Caldari can use their Ewar or be very average at the other two things. edit: This is why some kind of built in tank would work best as far as I'm concerned. It would still only be a gang ship performing its role but it would be able to take a bit more fire and jam a few more ships before the insurance letter comes through the door. This way it wouldn't become a damage solo ship with the ability to completely disable its opponent, overnight.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.20 10:43:00 - [8] For recon ships i consider one repper and one resist mod a tank - and neither the falcon or the rook can fit any of them. I agree the slot boost would take it out of line of the rest (all force recons have 14 slots, all combat recons have 15), but it would make up for the nerfed-ness of ECM. Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
velocoraptor Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.04.20 11:00:00 - [9] A rook with 5 Valk/Hammer IIs sounds a bit overpowered. Kali IS the goddess of destruction after all
EMTsNightmare Gekidoku Koroshiya Buntai	Posted - 2007.04.20 12:03:00 - [10] there is nothing wrong with the falcon. I've had my alt using one very effectively for the last 2+ months. awesome ship!
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.20 13:28:00 - [11] Originally by: EMTsNightmare there is nothing wrong with the falcon. I've had my alt using one very effectively for the last 2+ months. awesome ship! In what setup..it's definetly nice, but to live any decent amount of time you need a plate, to be able to durably jam people you need a cap battery and to be mobile you need an AB / MWD. Maybe one scram and voila..only 4 slots left for ECM :/ Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age Anarchy Empire	Posted - 2007.04.20 17:16:00 - [12] Edited by: Aramendel on 20/04/2007 17:12:33 Originally by: Sokratesz For recon ships i consider one repper and one resist mod a tank - and neither the falcon or the rook can fit any of them. I agree the slot boost would take it out of line of the rest (all force recons have 14 slots, all combat recons have 15), but it would make up for the nerfed-ness of ECM. One LSE2 - which the falcon and rook can fit just as well as the other recons - is a far better "tank" than a repper and resist mod. With maxxed skills one LSE2 is a 3281 hitpoint boost. The other recons have 1336-2250 armor. One 25% EAN2 adds 445-750 hitpoints there. One MAR repairs 36.6 hitpoints/second. With the effect of the EAN2 thats 47.4 effeciently. So it would take the MAR2+EAN2 setup 54-60 seconds to achieve the same hitpoint boost as 1 LSE2. If you think a recon will even remotely survive that long if called target you are kidding yourself.
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.04.20 17:39:00 - [13] This has got to be a joke, right? Surely there can't be any problem to fit a large extender (+ an EM hardener perhaps), which gives you a better tank than most other recons. Sneak up and scramble? What the... You're supposed to "sneak up" 100km away from the action, duh. And there's not many cruisersized weapons that can deal any damage from that range either. Your offence so to say is that you (on average, at least when including relock time) can keep 3 hostile battleships jammed with a cruiser. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Alexander Knott Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.04.20 19:20:00 - [14] I haven't flown a Falcon, but it seems like the range bonus isn't the best for the kind of 'sneak up and zap a ratter' tactics that most Force Recons use. Do the people that fly this ship feel like this is a good bonus? ----- "I like to loot, especially going to the can of the battleship, sometimes there is a surprise inside, sometimes there is only carp..."
Alcean Dark Blackguard Brigade Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.20 20:10:00 - [15] Originally by: Alexander Knott I haven't flown a Falcon, but it seems like the range bonus isn't the best for the kind of 'sneak up and zap a ratter' tactics that most Force Recons use. Do the people that fly this ship feel like this is a good bonus? I fly Falcons frequently and a falcon is a gang ship through and through. The range bonus is just as if not mor eimportant as strength, because it allows the ship to jam from 145+ km. If a Falcon is in the "sneak up and zap it range" it will die quickly (unless it can jam all its targets). Range becomes its survivability. On another not,e for both the arazu and rapier I would say range is their ally also... Arazu damps so you cannot lock and a rapier webs you 30 out so if you are not long range you are toast. So without a range bonus, the Falcon become smuch less worthwhile as a jammer.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 1 Shot 1 Kill	Posted - 2007.04.20 20:23:00 - [16] Originally by: dalman This has got to be a joke, right? Nope. Extender + hardener is 2 of 7 midslots. Add ab/mwd, possible sensorbooster and voila, 3 slots left for ewar. Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Radio is essential for Amarr, to call the much needed backup...
bldyannoyed Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.04.20 20:39:00 - [17] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 20/04/2007 20:44:22 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: dalman This has got to be a joke, right? Nope. Extender + hardener is 2 of 7 midslots. Add ab/mwd, possible sensorbooster and voila, 3 slots left for ewar. What the hell u want a speed mod for? you de-cloak 100+KM from the action, align, and start jamming. If anything gets within scramble range u either warp out or jam it. Having a speed mod is a total waste of time and not really a compelling argument for giving a ship one more slot than all its class counterparts. EDIT: Just done some maths. Ignoring the cap reduction for the electronic warfare skill. A Falcon using 5 tech 2 racial jammers uses 12cap/sec - (485/20) An Arazu using 3 RSD II's and 2 warp disrupter II's uses 20.8 cap/sec ( 363/10) + (25*2/5). So really if a Falcon needs an extra mid cos it uses too much cap an Arazu needs 2 extra mids. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2007.04.20 22:41:00 - [18] Originally by: bldyannoyed Edited by: bldyannoyed on 20/04/2007 20:44:22 Originally by: Sokratesz Originally by: dalman This has got to be a joke, right? Nope. Extender + hardener is 2 of 7 midslots. Add ab/mwd, possible sensorbooster and voila, 3 slots left for ewar. What the hell u want a speed mod for? you de-cloak 100+KM from the action, align, and start jamming. If anything gets within scramble range u either warp out or jam it. Having a speed mod is a total waste of time and not really a compelling argument for giving a ship one more slot than all its class counterparts. EDIT: Just done some maths. Ignoring the cap reduction for the electronic warfare skill. A Falcon using 5 tech 2 racial jammers uses 12cap/sec - (485/20) An Arazu using 3 RSD II's and 2 warp disrupter II's uses 20.8 cap/sec ( 363/10) + (25*2/5). So really if a Falcon needs an extra mid cos it uses too much cap an Arazu needs 2 extra mids. What he said. My suggestion was bascily 5 ECM, LSE and EM hardener or sensor booster. The need of a sensor booster is questionable though. You have about 165km base lockrange. If you really get dampened, just one booster probably won't be enough to let you lock. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Tahmee Bhakeur	Posted - 2007.04.20 22:45:00 - [19] Originally by: eXtas how do u fit a tank on lachesis? 5 RSD II's
OrcishMonkey	Posted - 2007.11.06 00:31:00 - [20] You guys are completly wrong in every aspect.... why would you fit a tank to the rook? or falcon for that matter? what do you guys think ECM is? i been flying rook/falcon for like 3 months now in pvp and have lost 2. and only then b/c i jumped into gate camp(died b/c of lack of speed mod and cant jam that many ships =P) But with my fit(6 jammers and a SB and 2 SDAs) i was jamming a raven a geddon and a retribution... what more of a tank do you want @_@ Yes it has no DPS but thats ok b/c it has best tank and best fleet potential. Only buff i could see useful for rook would be an extra low slot. Take away a high for it. I useually fit a recon launcher on it and falcon anyways. Only use T2 launchers with precision missiles for anti drone. All in all learn and accept the ship for what it is, a gang ship. And always remember the definition of Caldari. Caldari/Solo/Pvp now pick two...
Bardi MecAuldnis Amarr Heretic Army	Posted - 2007.11.06 00:48:00 - [21] It might have to do with the fact that this is 6 months old. The ships were a bit different, and they weren't aware of the boost that is coming... Let dead threads lie... --- Amarr/Caldari, and proud of it. Hey hey let's go kenka suru! Taisetsuna mono protect my balls! Boku ga warui so lets fighting! LET'S FIGHTING LOVE!!!
Sol Basso Merchants Trade Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.06 11:25:00 - [22] Edited by: Sol Basso on 06/11/2007 11:28:26 The issue here appears to be that the other Recons can e-war and engage the target (for arguments sake lets say 'solo') The 'issue' with the Rook/Falcon is that their tank is range but they are unable to engage at the range they can e-war at (by a considerable margin) What the op appears to be suggesting are ways that the Falcon/Rook can perform within their weapon ranges while still having a rudimentary 'tank' (because as the devs pointed out at the time of the ECM nerf, range is the ECM ships tank) /edit I'm sympathetic to the drone bay idea though - I always thought it was odd that the Griffin & Scorp got a drone bay but the Blackbird/Falcon/Rook didn't (although I don't think the new T2 Griffin gets one either but the Widow does - seems a bit inconsistent)
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.06 11:49:00 - [23] Stop resurrecting my former self. And CCP thanks for giving the rook that 3rd lowslot xD
Justice Bringer Minmatar Space-Bar FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.11.06 12:22:00 - [24] Originally by: Tahmee Bhakeur Originally by: eXtas how do u fit a tank on lachesis? 5 RSD II's Almost, but not quite. 4 x RSD (Low frequency or Phased muon to save cap) + Cap Battery/Cap Booster then your choice to fill the other med slots. This will give you a more sustainable tank Justice

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