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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.04.21 22:58:00 -
[1]
It has 1 High slot more then any other Dread, cool huh?
Not really because in the end it ends up with less/equal dps then other dreads while having one medium/low slot less, less total cap and uses both ship bonuses to achieve said average damage. It also needs more skill to fly due to the split weapon system.
Compared to the moros it does less dps, tanks worse, has only half the drone bay and obviously not the insane drone damage bonus which in turn means a lot less flexibility.
I think the Naglfar deserves an additional low slot.
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Pesadel0
Ordem dos Templarios
Te-Ka
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Posted - 2007.04.21 23:02:00 -
[2]
I would be happy if they changed the slot layout to 3 turrets or 3 missile bays :)
I was sworn to absolute secrecy BY CCP. |
Waxau
Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.04.21 23:09:00 -
[3]
From what i know of, the Naglfar does the most dps, when skilled for properly, and is far more versatile in skill wise, due to the ability to armor tank, shield tank, use missiles and minnie turrets. Which means you can fit it for Gank (shield tank + damage mods) or Tank (armor tank).
Whilst its a far more skill intensive ship, when skilled for properly, its far more effective.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.04.21 23:32:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Waxau
From what i know of, the Naglfar does the most dps, when skilled for properly, and is far more versatile in skill wise, due to the ability to armor tank, shield tank, use missiles and minnie turrets. Which means you can fit it for Gank (shield tank + damage mods) or Tank (armor tank).
Whilst its a far more skill intensive ship, when skilled for properly, its far more effective.
Dread DPS Comparison
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xHalcyonx
Amarr
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2007.04.21 23:32:00 -
[5]
Edited by: xHalcyonx on 21/04/2007 23:29:02
In the eternal words of one great forum warrior:
Originally by: ElCoCo
"It's freakin vertical mon! "
That's why the Naglfar is awesome! 
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Dynast
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Posted - 2007.04.22 00:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Dread DPS Comparison
What we really need is a comparison not of max DPS, but of DPS in 'typical' T2 fittings. T2 rather than faction/officer, with the understanding that when Dreads die it's most likely to be due to lag, CTD, or massive numerical disparity, and so the fitting should be 'good' but not cost all that much on top of the dread cost, because it won't change that much.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
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Posted - 2007.04.22 00:27:00 -
[7]
I think it is with typical fit. No damage mods just the weapons with Max skills and siege mode. The Dps here shows the average dps you get before resists.
Crystal-Slave, that way?
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James 315
Yet Another CAOD-Inspired 1-Man Alt Corp
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Posted - 2007.04.22 01:38:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Amy Wang
It has 1 High slot more then any other Dread, cool huh?
Not really because in the end it ends up with less/equal dps then other dreads while having one medium/low slot less, less total cap and uses both ship bonuses to achieve said average damage. It also needs more skill to fly due to the split weapon system.
Compared to the moros it does less dps, tanks worse, has only half the drone bay and obviously not the insane drone damage bonus which in turn means a lot less flexibility.
I think the Naglfar deserves an additional low slot.
It's a Minmatar ship, why should it be as good as the moros?
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xHalcyonx
Amarr
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2007.04.22 02:28:00 -
[9]
Originally by: James 315
Originally by: Amy Wang
It has 1 High slot more then any other Dread, cool huh?
Not really because in the end it ends up with less/equal dps then other dreads while having one medium/low slot less, less total cap and uses both ship bonuses to achieve said average damage. It also needs more skill to fly due to the split weapon system.
Compared to the moros it does less dps, tanks worse, has only half the drone bay and obviously not the insane drone damage bonus which in turn means a lot less flexibility.
I think the Naglfar deserves an additional low slot.
It's a Minmatar ship, why should it be as good as the moros?
That's a terrible line of thinking, though sadly [mostly] true. 
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William Hamilton
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Posted - 2007.04.22 04:04:00 -
[10]
A moros won't fit blasters becasue they cant hit a POS.
Also, the drones make up a fair bit of the moros DPS, but do NOT get a seige mode bonus.
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.04.22 05:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: William Hamilton
A moros won't fit blasters becasue they cant hit a POS.
Also, the drones make up a fair bit of the moros DPS, but do NOT get a seige mode bonus.
Same is largely true with the Nag and autocannons. Also the moros (and likewise all dreads) can use sentry drones to attack POS and while the drones don't get a siege module bonus, they do get a very nice damage bonus per level.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.04.22 10:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 22/04/2007 10:11:40
Indeed, not to mention the nasty things moros can do to smaller ships/fighters with its drones, thats what I meant by flexibility.
Moreover the Nagl being more flexible because it can be also shield tanked with damage mods in the lows is true, but you realize the Moros has the same mid slots number, so it can do that as well while having an additional low slot ofc ?
So thats hardly an argument in favour of the Nagl.
Tbh the only real argument why the Naglfar is a good ship so far was that it looks cool and is freaking vertical which is true but hardly something to consider in a balance discussion ;)
And ofc I do realize that Gallente ships are superior to Minmatar ones in most cases.
Mostly due to better design focus and better slot layout, but also due to the fact that gallente ships get their regular drone bay and damage bonuses without being compensated in another field for it, they just get it on top of an already useful ship design which brings them simply over the top.
The Moros is only one example for this, but a good one nonetheless.
But the fact that it is this way atm doesnt indicate that it should stay this way or that I will stop complaining about it ;)
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Taurevanime
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Posted - 2007.04.22 14:56:00 -
[13]
Well yeah this does show that the Gallente drone ships deserve to looked at by the devs and see how they balance out.
As for the Naglfar, I'd love one and I'd love to use one for more than POS use but that requires an intelligent gang supporting you.
Anyway as stated you need a ton more skillpoints than any other ship to even fly it because of the mixed weapon layout and the mixed tanking possibility. And I wouldn't mind it seeing a little more love because of that. It's such a huge time investment, it deserves to be a disputed number 1 at the least.
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Aggressive Salesman
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.04.22 15:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Waxau
From what i know of, the Naglfar does the most dps, when skilled for properly, and is far more versatile in skill wise, due to the ability to armor tank, shield tank, use missiles and minnie turrets. Which means you can fit it for Gank (shield tank + damage mods) or Tank (armor tank).
Whilst its a far more skill intensive ship, when skilled for properly, its far more effective.
Awesome, I can get to fit a half assed shield tank or a half assed armor tank! Even the Moros, which is a dedicated armor tanking ship, can fit a better shield tank because it has one extra low.
If you've ever been to a fairly sized fleet battle you'll see that Naglfars are always primaries, because they are so easy to destroy. I suspect that CCP thinks that because it has an 85 m/sec base speed they are balanced 
Besides being forced to use torpedoes and turrets is not versatility. It means being forced to waste another month training yet another skill tree. The split weapon system does nothing but gimp the nag. Two bonuses wasted on weapons and it sill doesn't do top damage, yet it accomplishes to suck a vital mid or low slot. The Moros (and actually all the others) is better in every single way, and that's without taking into account the overpowered 50% drone bonus which is absolutely insane.
There is no reason why a team of engineers would **** up a design so badly. 'Hey look I have a great idea for our siege space ship. Let's make this ship harder to fit, do less damage, tank much less, and harder to train for. Two of our enemies can fit an insane tank and the Gallentes could wipe the floor with us, but we will see who laughs last when we speed tank them at 85 m/sec!' |
Chode Rizoum
Minmatar
Temptation inc.
Eternal Rapture
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Posted - 2007.04.22 15:48:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Chode Rizoum on 22/04/2007 15:44:21
TEMPTATION INC. Killboard |
Altrex Stoppel
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.04.22 15:50:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Altrex Stoppel on 22/04/2007 15:47:08
Originally by: Azerrad InExile
Originally by: Waxau
From what i know of, the Naglfar does the most dps, when skilled for properly, and is far more versatile in skill wise, due to the ability to armor tank, shield tank, use missiles and minnie turrets. Which means you can fit it for Gank (shield tank + damage mods) or Tank (armor tank).
Whilst its a far more skill intensive ship, when skilled for properly, its far more effective.
Dread DPS Comparison
Now take that chart with the Moros and blasters and the Nag with ACs give the Nag EMP and let it sit at max falloff and the Moros Antimatter. Who does more DPS at that range? Naglfar is more versatile and a far better dread in my opinion. Moros has to fit long range ammo like thorium to make blasters work...Plus this says it all:
It's Vertical!
Originally by: ISD Mod-hango (talking about SNOWY)
It's a pirate corp, deployed near the amarr gates.
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Reincarnator
Amarr
Brute Force Missions inc
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Posted - 2007.04.22 16:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Altrex Stoppel
It's Vertical!
Originally by: Hango
Please refrain from posting if you have something to contribute. Thank you. -Hango
Sig'd |
ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.04.22 17:42:00 -
[18]
Originally by: xHalcyonx
In the eternal words of one great forum warrior:
Originally by: ElCoCo
"It's freakin vertical mon!"
That's why the Naglfar is awesome!
My words are eternal?
If I hadn't already trained up quite a lot for the moros, I'd trade it for the naglfargarararar in no time. There's more to gaming than just stats... and the nag doesn't look that bad anyway since the option to change ammo type realy should crank up your actual dps.
Does the lower sig of the nag help at all vs other dreads/POS or does it get hit for full dmg? (cba to do the numbers  )
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Arkon Havok
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Posted - 2007.04.22 18:06:00 -
[19]
Who needs dps when you look so damn good?
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Azerrad InExile
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Posted - 2007.04.22 19:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Altrex Stoppel
Now take that chart with the Moros and blasters and the Nag with ACs give the Nag EMP and let it sit at max falloff and the Moros Antimatter. Who does more DPS at that range? Naglfar is more versatile and a far better dread in my opinion. Moros has to fit long range ammo like thorium to make blasters work...Plus this says it all:
Which is why you're best off not to bother to fit blasters or ACs. When you're in a ship that can't move, you want to be damn sure that you will be in range of your targets, so you fit long range guns. The only dread that has enough range with short range guns is the Revelation.
However, if you want to do useless comparisons, lets try this: Take a Moros with blasters and Ogre IIs and a Rokh with 425 IIs and Spike and sit them at the Rokhs optimal range. Who does more damage at that range?
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