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A call for debate on the Imperial Succession

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Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.04.25 06:59:00 - [1] I think it is high time we hear opinions from some of the more outspoken members of the capsuleer community concerning the selection of the next Emperor. My hope is to start a discourse and for people to voice their support for the house they feel should be chosen to lead. And perhaps more importantly, who should not be chosen, and for what reasons. Of course much of this debate will be moot after the successor is chosen and most swear loyalty to the new emperor, but I think it's quite reasonable to have a spirited (and one would hope, civil) debate before this occurs. I'll start things off and say only that the family of Tash-Murkon, and any Udorian for that matter, is unfit to rule. Any house that buys their way onto the Privy Council, especially any house that replaced Khanid II, should be out of contention as far as I am concerned. Thoughts?
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.25 08:46:00 - [2] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 25/04/2007 08:42:12 My own personal view is that the Succession Council should be left to decide the process by which the new Emperor is selected. Should the Succession Council decide to involve capsuleers in the process, my support would most likely go to either Uriam Kador or Yonis Ardishapur. I'm sure that other PIE pilots will support different heirs, as happened during the Championships a few years back. Having said all of that, I do wonder why a supporter of Khanid thinks that they have any moral right to voice an opinion on this matter. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr A Better Future	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:58:00 - [3] Indeed, if the commitee and heirs decide to involve the pod-pilot community in this affair it's by grace alone. But if it comes to that... Personally I'd be hard-pressed to decide whom to support. Most likely Uriam Kador (a true and capable son of House Kador) or Catiz Tash-Murkon, but an Emperor of House Ardishapur might be what the empire needs in these times of unrest. Possibly even House Sarum depending on which one of the many capable candidates they select as heir. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Archbishop Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.25 13:05:00 - [4] I support whoever GOD supports and that will eventually be made clear within the traditions of Emperors past. It is not my place to have any opinion on such a matter. I live to serve. Archbishop PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP'S BLOG
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr A Better Future	Posted - 2007.04.25 13:40:00 - [5] Originally by: Archbishop I support whoever GOD supports and that will eventually be made clear within the traditions of Emperors past. It is not my place to have any opinion on such a matter. I live to serve. Archbishop Not to nitpick Archbishop, but as a moral agent are you not required (by God) to have an opinion? The true question that faces any servant of God is wether it's your (or my) place to voice or act upon that opinion. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 15:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Archbishop I support whoever GOD supports and that will eventually be made clear within the traditions of Emperors past. It is not my place to have any opinion on such a matter. I live to serve. Archbishop I agree a new Heir needs to be selected. One that is not blind by the changes that are occurring in the Empire. One who is Fit to rule. One who a True power on the throne. Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.04.25 16:27:00 - [7] This line of questioning is not designed to incite anger, but I feel there are theological issues here that would be pertinent to discuss, and perhaps we can illuminate together. Perhaps a more pertinent question; should those not of the blood be in consideration? Should anyone of a lesser race be eligible for Emperor? I think this is a fair question to ask. And depending on your thoughts would set up a certain chain of logic. For example, if an Udorian were to be selected as Emperor, then this means that a race that was once enslaved by the True Amarr has been elevated to an equal status. This would imply that any lesser race, after a long enough period of service to the Empire, is eligible for equal status. You see where this goes if you keep following this line of reasoning? I would like to hear opinions on this. Where is the line? We've heard two very different and contradictory opinions from two of the heir families already. ((on an ooc side note, just wanted to remind people not to confuse the Khanid Royal family with Khanid the nation. "The royal family is of pure Amarr blood, but the nation is not, being, as already stated, one of the many nations (like the Udorians) that was subjugated on Athra. The origin of the Khanid family as one of the royal families incidentally dates back to the time the Khanids were subjugated, with the commander of the campaign against them being elevated in stature after the conquest as a reward for his brave efforts (neither he nor the Khanids actually were called Khanid at that point, but that's beside the point). " So remember, Khanid II = true amarrian, khanid people = former conquests on Athra, like the Udorians, etc ))
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 17:58:00 - [8] Originally by: Silas Vitalia This line of questioning is not designed to incite anger, but I feel there are theological issues here that would be pertinent to discuss, and perhaps we can illuminate together. Perhaps a more pertinent question; should those not of the blood be in consideration? Should anyone of a lesser race be eligible for Emperor? I think this is a fair question to ask. And depending on your thoughts would set up a certain chain of logic. For example, if an Udorian were to be selected as Emperor, then this means that a race that was once enslaved by the True Amarr has been elevated to an equal status. This would imply that any lesser race, after a long enough period of service to the Empire, is eligible for equal status. You see where this goes if you keep following this line of reasoning? I would like to hear opinions on this. Where is the line? We've heard two very different and contradictory opinions from two of the heir families already. Let provide me provide you with this answer. If we were to subscribe for the moment to the notion that God had a hand in making Emperor wouldn't he had done so. Would not hear tales of such an individual who sets an example so others can follow? Perhaps. However, when a leader from whatever part of the Universe shows himself as perfect person for the job. He can lead men in both war and peace. Responsibly delegate his power to those under him and manage to even keep the lowliest slave content. It wouldn't matter where his origins are from. Or what race for that matter. Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.25 18:36:00 - [9] It could be interesting to discuss the situation and speculate how the people in charge of it may decide. However i fail to see what points a traitor to the Empire could bring to the table here.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 19:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne It could be interesting to discuss the situation and speculate how the people in charge of it may decide. However i fail to see what points a traitor to the Empire could bring to the table here. I thought this was discussion on what qualities as to whom would make a great Emperor? Perhaps you should stick to the topic at hand? Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.

Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.04.25 19:26:00 - [11] Detestable as I feel Casserina is, she does have a point. If you are interested in discussing this issue let's stick to the topic at hand, or this will go nowhere. Casserina seems to fall in with the Tash-Murkon camp, in that racial purity should not play a role, but rather personal qualifications. I'm interested in hearing other's opinions. It's great to hear blanket statements of 'general' support for whomever is selected, but I'd be naive in thinking that you all do not have personal opinions on the matter. Obviously there is a great deal of support for many different possibilities. Having a preference before the matter is decided is entirely different (and acceptable) from voicing opposition after the issue has been decided. Discussion beforehand is healthy and welcome, questioning the choices aftewards is a more dangerous endeavor. I tend to fall into the opposite camp from Casserina, in that no one save a True Amarr is fit to rule.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 19:27:00 - [12] Originally by: Silas Vitalia Detestable as I feel Casserina is, she does have a point. If you are interested in discussing this issue let's stick to the topic at hand, or this will go nowhere. Casserina seems to fall in with the Tash-Murkon camp, in that racial purity should not play a role, but rather personal qualifications. I'm interested in hearing other's opinions. It's great to hear blanket statements of 'general' support for whomever is selected, but I'd be naive in thinking that you all do not have personal opinions on the matter. Obviously there is a great deal of support for many different possibilities. Having a preference before the matter is decided is entirely different (and acceptable) from voicing opposition after the issue has been decided. Discussion beforehand is healthy and welcome, questioning the choices aftewards is a more dangerous endeavor. I tend to fall into the opposite camp from Casserina, in that no one save a True Amarr is fit to rule. Only if the True Amarr is Fit to Rule. Then I will agree to that. Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:00:00 - [13] Actually it really does matter who participates in a discussion like this. Discussing the matter at hand with a traitor or revans little heretic seems to be comparable to sharing the finer points of your latest security system with a common criminal.
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:18:00 - [14] This is not really an appropriate venue for such a discussion. Attempting the topic here is as effective as doing so in a Gallente market.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Udyr Vulpayne Actually it really does matter who participates in a discussion like this. Discussing the matter at hand with a traitor or revans little heretic seems to be comparable to sharing the finer points of your latest security system with a common criminal. Since there is no official word of my status in the Empire. I suggest you keep on topic. There is supposed to at least an attempt of an intelligent conversation on a matter regarding the Empire. I trust you handle that part. One of your own brought up a the debate topic, so let's at least keep our politics at the door. You and I can dance on another thread. Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:36:00 - [16] Ahh, so much for civility. Udyr, I see no reason for such venom, and I would hope you can see the difference between myself and a blooder, for goodness sake. It's easy to focus on the 'differences' between the Kingdom and the Empire and split hairs, but its always more constructive to focus on the many similarities. They worship the same God, they practice the same faith, they share the same customs and rituals. Their distinctive ships are commonly seen throughout the empire, and no doubt used by many in your organization. Relations have never been better between the Kingdom and the Empire. Things that happened 300 years ago before any of us were even born should be left alone, or brought up in a seperate thread, should you desire. And I can assure you my leaving the empire was not a matter of choice, although this is certainly no venue for such a discussion, nor any of your business. Suffice to say I was embraced in the outlands with open arms and I've found nothing but acceptance from the Khanid people that I now count among my friends. I am, however, Amarrian, and that is not up for debate. Once again, I'm just trying to gauge opinion from the capsuleers as to the succession. If Revan's lapdog can be civil in relation to this topic then I would hope that a distinguished gentleman such as your self would be capable of the same. Pezzle, I think this is an appropriate venue. I'm here for clarification of theological issues as well, and I would certainly appreciate any illumination on this matter from those who have made the scriptures their sole focus in life. If an Udorian can be Emperor, then I must ask where is the line drawn? If someone not of the pure blood can be elevated and his flesh made sacred, then who is to say it wont be any other race in another 1000 years? A gallente, a Minmatar?
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:40:00 - [17] With all due respect, I must disagree. In this place we can attract the attention of all sorts of rabble. They may be traitors, heretics, pirates or simple madmen. If you wish, we could discuss the issue in more secure channels, removing the need to wade through nonsense.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:43:00 - [18] Originally by: Silas Vitalia Ahh, so much for civility. Udyr, I see no reason for such venom, and I would hope you can see the difference between myself and a blooder, for goodness sake. It's easy to focus on the 'differences' between the Kingdom and the Empire and split hairs, but its always more constructive to focus on the many similarities. They worship the same God, they practice the same faith, they share the same customs and rituals. Their distinctive ships are commonly seen throughout the empire, and no doubt used by many in your organization. Relations have never been better between the Kingdom and the Empire. Things that happened 300 years ago before any of us were even born should be left alone, or brought up in a seperate thread, should you desire. And I can assure you my leaving the empire was not a matter of choice, although this is certainly no venue for such a discussion, nor any of your business. Suffice to say I was embraced in the outlands with open arms and I've found nothing but acceptance from the Khanid people that I now count among my friends. I am, however, Amarrian, and that is not up for debate. Once again, I'm just trying to gauge opinion from the capsuleers as to the succession. If Revan's lapdog can be civil in relation to this topic then I would hope that a distinguished gentleman such as your self would be capable of the same. Pezzle, I think this is an appropriate venue. I'm here for clarification of theological issues as well, and I would certainly appreciate any illumination on this matter from those who have made the scriptures their sole focus in life. If an Udorian can be Emperor, then I must ask where is the line drawn? If someone not of the pure blood can be elevated and his flesh made sacred, then who is to say it wont be any other race in another 1000 years? A gallente, a Minmatar? A question for you all. What if God wills it to another race other than an Amarr? Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Gaven Lok'ri Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:51:00 - [19] Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/04/2007 20:47:50 This demogaugery on such an important subject is beneath the Amarrian people. And a member of the Sani Sabik as an active participant completely nullifies any value that this discussion could have. You serve Khanid. Khanid has no place in a discussion of the succession, due to a decision he made himself a long time ago. I dont blame you for serving him, I do not believe that this thread is one that should be made by a servant of Khanid. Those we serve will make their decisions, and while we can, through proper channels, attempt to help those we serve, they make the decisions, not the gallente inspired circus that is this summit. Deus Vult! PIE Website Public Channel: 'PIE Public'
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.25 20:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/04/2007 20:47:50 This demogaugery on such an important subject is beneath the Amarrian people. And a member of the Sani Sabik as an active participant completely nullifies any value that this discussion could have. You serve Khanid. Khanid has no place in a discussion of the succession, due to a decision he made himself a long time ago. I dont blame you for serving him, I do not believe that this thread is one that should be made by a servant of Khanid. Those we serve will make their decisions, and while we can, through proper channels, attempt to help those we serve, they make the decisions, not the gallente inspired circus that is this summit. Ah yes, the self appointed emissary of the Empire has spoken and so we must obey. You of course are wrong. This is the perfect discussion for heretics and lesser races of the Empire. Go back to your masters in the Theology Council. Tell them that you have failed even stopping this thread! I do believe there is topic pending. Whom to do wish to be Emperor Gaven? Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.

Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.04.25 21:05:00 - [21] Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri Edited by: Gaven Lok''ri on 25/04/2007 20:47:50 This demogaugery on such an important subject is beneath the Amarrian people. And a member of the Sani Sabik as an active participant completely nullifies any value that this discussion could have. You serve Khanid. Khanid has no place in a discussion of the succession, due to a decision he made himself a long time ago. I dont blame you for serving him, I do not believe that this thread is one that should be made by a servant of Khanid. Those we serve will make their decisions, and while we can, through proper channels, attempt to help those we serve, they make the decisions, not the gallente inspired circus that is this summit. Gaven, Thank you for remaining polite, it really is appreciated. The more I think about it, though, I do think you and Pezzle have a point. Perhaps some naivativity from myself in assuming this sort of thing could be debated on a public forum without turning into a sideshow, considering the likely responders and where this will soon go I'm sure..... Perhaps I am a silly optimist thinking any of us would learn anything from a discussion. Also perhaps I spoke too soon about Casserina being civil. "Go back to your Masters in the Theology Council" not exactly the sort of constructive conversation I was looking for. I'll consider this attempt at discourse a failure, my appologies to the PIE and CVA posters for broaching such an obviously sore subject. I realize the view from the Khanid Kingdom does not quite have the immediacy that you all who still live in the Empire face, and we have the benefit of looking at the matter in a slightly more objective way. No offense intended I can assure you. Good day to you all. -Silas
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.04.25 23:10:00 - [22] It's quiet easy to see that you are amarrian by birth. The question is whether or not you have fallen from faith. You may not realize it but you are in fact serving two traitors to the Empire in your current corporation. The first being of course the traitor khanid II whos sins are widely known. The second would be your CEO. She served under Revan and turned herself against the Empire. She indulged in heresy, took part in revans perverted rituals, sought to kill loyal amarrians and threatend to use weapons of mass destruction against the civilian populace of the Empire. I guess that puts her pretty well into the camp of traitors and heretics. I hope you can see now how one could reject your claim to have a valid opinion in these matters.
Arderich Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen	Posted - 2007.04.26 14:10:00 - [23] Udyr Vulpayne, I do not think you respond in an adequate manner.
Sokra Zatah Zatah Holdings	Posted - 2007.04.28 15:50:00 - [24] In due course the Succession Council will appoint the rightful heir. Their methods and the timespan should be not of a podpilot's concern. We are here to serve The Empire, and our lord. It is not any of our place to make rash comments and criticisms of how the Succession Council handle the ongoing debate.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.28 16:01:00 - [25] Originally by: Sokra Zatah In due course the Succession Council will appoint the rightful heir. Their methods and the timespan should be not of a podpilot's concern. We are here to serve The Empire, and our lord. It is not any of our place to make rash comments and criticisms of how the Succession Council handle the ongoing debate. You couldn't be more incorrect. With the changing of religions on Fensi and Amarr. The Succession Council is not the authority that we as Amarrians need to rely upon. It is the holders themselves, who have a finger to the pulse of their holdings to choose a rightful Heir. Instead we cling to false idea that the Theology Council, thinks in the best interests of the Empire, when they hidden behind their mythical God, are the true power on all of the Empire. It is through them and their agents in the Succession Council that will always put an Heir onto the throne that will serve their aims and their absolute control of the Empire. Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Sokra Zatah Zatah Holdings	Posted - 2007.04.28 16:22:00 - [26] Originally by: Casserina Leshrac Originally by: Sokra Zatah In due course the Succession Council will appoint the rightful heir. Their methods and the timespan should be not of a podpilot's concern. We are here to serve The Empire, and our lord. It is not any of our place to make rash comments and criticisms of how the Succession Council handle the ongoing debate. You couldn't be more incorrect. With the changing of religions on Fensi and Amarr. The Succession Council is not the authority that we as Amarrians need to rely upon. It is the holders themselves, who have a finger to the pulse of their holdings to choose a rightful Heir. Instead we cling to false idea that the Theology Council, thinks in the best interests of the Empire, when they hidden behind their mythical God, are the true power on all of the Empire. It is through them and their agents in the Succession Council that will always put an Heir onto the throne that will serve their aims and their absolute control of the Empire. Keep your feverent ramblings to your so called "temple", heretic. There is no place for a filthy swine such as yourself in Imperial politics. Run along to your deluded leader, child.
Casserina Leshrac Amarr Bloodveil The Sani Sabik	Posted - 2007.04.28 18:38:00 - [27] Originally by: Sokra Zatah Keep your feverent ramblings to your so called "temple", heretic. There is no place for a filthy swine such as yourself in Imperial politics. Run along to your deluded leader, child. The time of "checking your religion at the door" in Amarr Empire has come to pass. The Sani Sabik will now have their say as it should have been in the past. Now I believe we are gathered here to discuss the future Heir of the Empire. Are will you be discussing my religious background again? Casserina Sani Sabik Illuminati From the Darkness I sow the seeds of Chaos.
Spoon Thumb Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.04.30 19:39:00 - [28] Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 30/04/2007 19:35:15 The Amarr Empire need to stop ignoring reality around them and pretending they can continue in their current vein. The Republic is an afront to everything the Empire stands for. Its morals are being slowly eroded from all sides and its economic, technological and cultural achievements are in a state of stagnation. There seem to be two choices: Reform, open up and modernise or Re-focus on the core values and beliefs of the Empire. Clean out the garbage and re-ignite the zeal and passion thusfar shown only by those few pod-pilots who still believe in the reclaimation and all it stands for. In that light, this commentator would suggest that the next Emperor needs to have a definite direction right from word go and that a "stable, non-rock the boat" type Emperor is the worst thing that could happen now. Doing nothing is a decision in its self, and in this case, it is the wrong one. --- ** My own personal opinion and not necessarily representative of my corp/alliance --- Khaldari Research Services http://tinyurl.com/28nycq KPA Recruiting!
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr A Better Future	Posted - 2007.05.01 02:49:00 - [29] Originally by: Spoon Thumb Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 30/04/2007 19:35:15 The Amarr Empire need to stop ignoring reality around them and pretending they can continue in their current vein. The Republic is an afront to everything the Empire stands for. Its morals are being slowly eroded from all sides and its economic, technological and cultural achievements are in a state of stagnation. There seem to be two choices: Reform, open up and modernise or Re-focus on the core values and beliefs of the Empire. Clean out the garbage and re-ignite the zeal and passion thusfar shown only by those few pod-pilots who still believe in the reclaimation and all it stands for. I don't see those two as the only two options. As I see it our best option is to reform, modernise and re-evaluate how former and current policies and actions are serving the core values and beliefs of the empire and reshape them accordingly. In the current political climate I do not believe that "the old ways" (as stated by many reclaimers) will serve the core ideals of the empire. It's a changed world. While the reclaimation must continue we must reevaluate the means by which we do so, and reevaluate how to best keep what we're reclaiming. If the old ways were hollowed out and weakened by the moral and military onslaught of the heathens, then they were obviously not good enough. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Nachshon Caldari Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.05.02 00:43:00 - [30] How about you simply take the opinions of 'heretics' and 'traitors' with a grain of salt? ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom



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