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Macros. why do you hate them so much?

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ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:17:00 - [1] Serious question. Why do you hate macro miner types so much? there is always at least one OMFG MACROS! thread on the front page, and i can see why they're not a good thing, but why are they so bad and why do people get worked into a rabid, foamy mouthed rage by these guys spending their lives doing the dullest bits of Eve over and over again?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:20:00 - [2] Originally by: Kirianshalee A macrominer is not a person but a computer program hense the word macro nah, they need somebody sat there watching them. a macro is just a series of instructions, not some kind of omnipotent AI.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:26:00 - [3] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:23:01 Quote: There was a dev blog stating why it was bad some time ago. A link would be good. The points were inflation, broken economy, hacked accounts emptied for money, a huge timeeater for the GMs and a cuple of other things. Enough to make any intelligent (and im not stating you are not intelligent, I asked the exact same question less than 8 months ago) person stay far far away from buying money. yay! the first accusation of buying money off ebay. still waiting for the first accusation of being a macro miner. and Chinese. I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game. i've also heard the arguments CCP put forwards, but they sound - without trying to be a***** about it - like CCP's problem rather than mine. Macro miners don't impact my Eve experience as far as i can tell, so i wondered why people get so angry about it.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:29:00 - [4] Originally by: James Lyrus The other place of 'issue' is the percieved correlation between 'farmers' and 'isk sellers'. I'm not so clear on how/where that happens, but it's 'generally held' that there's communities who make a living from EVE, by running multiple accounts, grinding the isks, and selling the isks. but isk sold re-enters eve's economy, so it's not exactly causing inflation.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: ry ry I've no interest in buying isk off ebay. it defeats the point of the game. You answered your own question. The ISK that is sold is obtained EXCLUSIVELY from macro mining. "defeats the point of the game" is exactly why it's bad. so macro mining is bad because it lets some people ruin the game experience for themselves? B the same merit you could argue that spending your entire life mission running in empire, or sat in a station margin trading defeats the point of the game too.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Grunanca May I ask where I accuse you of anything? I answered your question and you ask it again in the post. I suggest you try read it again as it contains the answer of your question but no accusations however... yeah, i misread it. sorry.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:43:00 - [7] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:41:20 Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 10:39:38 Originally by: Jessica Lorelei basically, it wont impact your personal game that much, but on the grander interlinking scheme of things it affects the whole game for the reasons already stated. but to what extent does it effect me? every time i drink a glass of water, some tiny part of it passed through (EDIT: a well known German dictator) some point. Doesn't mean i'm chugging down a steaming mug of his urine. the macro hate just seems a little bit.. hazy. its a sort of unfocsed rage that loosely involves a hatred of anybody who might not be 'western' and does a lot of mining/plexes. I just don't get it. or you, obviously.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 10:47:00 - [8] Originally by: Grunanca Actually it ruins the gaming experience of others. If someone bought 1 bil isk and then bought a faction battleship with full tech 2 equipment, the cheapest battleship would be gone, and the cheapest of type tech 2 stuff. The sellers would think "hey my stuff sells fast, so lets raise the price!". This results in prices rising (inflation), which leads to players quitting because they have to grind for weeks just to fit a ship. Same logic could be applied to cash accrued from selling GTCs.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:11:00 - [9] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:08:33 read the devblog, and this is what i got from it: Quote: 1. Macro mining irritating 2. Spamming irritating 3. Account hacking kinda.. maybe.. you know.. your own fault? 4. Evil conglomerates are formed and prices go up! proper bad. but how common? and the changes in the t2 lottery & invention etc. mean this will be less effective. besides, people are CONSTANTLY creating trade cartels without selling any of the proceeds. 5. Customer support suffers ( = you suffer) couldn't possibly comment. certainly it takes up time, but probably less time than investigating incorrect OMFG <random user> IS DONIG THE MACREOS!!! petitions and people trying to get back stuff that got legitimately scammed off them. i'm not pro-isk seller, or pro-macro miner, or particularly pro-anything. i'm just a little bit anti-hysteria.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:13:00 - [10] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:10:04 Originally by: Aioa In answer to the OP's question: because people like a good witchhunt ;-) i think you've hit the nail on the head. which is a shame, since i was quite enjoying this thread.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:30:00 - [11] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:27:17 Quote: I do not "hate" them. There are people behind macros (somewhere). But macroing is cheating, "playing" the game how it was not supposed to be played. I can and will not tolerate cheating in multiplayer games. Oh and they hurt my profit as a miner. Ever tried to mine in your home region after a macro swarm came trough? While I am against ore theft (and all thefts will be retaliated), I regulary steal or destroy ore of macro miners. This is the only PvP you can force upon those people. You usually need to shoot down 1 or 2 Itty V before the swarm moves on. System saved, for now. Macro Mission runners or Macro NPC-Traders are even more dangerous to EVE. They infuse (much more then normal mission runners) ISK out from nowhere into the economy, causing inflation. but there are people who do all that swarm mining/plex farming stuff without ever resorting to macros - and more importantly - without ever selling the proceeds. are these super-carebears not also threat to Eve for all the same reasons? should they also be banned?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:32:00 - [12] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:31:21 Originally by: LUH 3471 chinese macro ****** did you just type six asterisks? :D also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:40:00 - [13] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:39:50 Originally by: Amphetaminer mmo's are games where you compete with others trough buying ISK others get an unfair advantage (and yes this applies for GTC's aswell!) not having a full-time job, or owning a better computer are also an unfair advantage. not many OMFG STUDENTS CAN PLAY ALL AFTERNOON AND I CAN ONLY PLAY AT EVENINGS AND WEEKENDS WHEN THE KIDS AREN'T ON THE COMPUTER!1!!1 rants on here. which isn't to say there shouldn't be - they'd be awesome.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:48:00 - [14] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Stop thinking on yourself and pay attention. You do realise i play eve for my own entertainment, right? anyhoo - why can't you compete with the macro miners? i tried mining once, found it more profitable than ratting but so ******* tedious i had to stop. or do you mean it's cut into your profit margin?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 11:50:00 - [15] Originally by: LUH 3471 Edited by: LUH 3471 on 25/04/2007 11:43:31 Originally by: ry ry Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 11:31:21 Originally by: LUH 3471 chinese macro ****** did you just type six asterisks? :D also: slightly stereotypical, isn't it? currency farming isn't limited to asians. or are you saying only the chinese ones should be banned? i dont care about nationality or color or where from. no need to insult my intelligence or do you have to do anything in any way with the chinese running around hauler missions nonstop in the area i described above? i'm not insulting your intelligence. you emulated the profanity filter, which amused me, and then characterised macro miners as 'chinese' which is, as i said, a bit stereotypical.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:04:00 - [16] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:08:17 so essentially your objection to macro miners is that they're cheating? how can you differentiate between a macro miner, and a super dedicated miner? and to what extend are they effecting your honest, common or garden player-miner. You have to remember, i know eff all about mining, since it bores the snot out of me. By the way; this thread isn't an exercise in attention whoring or anything of the sort - i'm genuinely curious about the intense dislike people generally have for macro-mining, plex-farming, isk-selling, sweatshop-employees. edit: removed the quote. originally a response to one post, but since it seems to be general opinion, i made it more of an open question.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:15:00 - [17] Originally by: Andrue Originally by: sakana actually, it'd be possible to write a macro where you dont need someone to sit there watching it...i think. It is. No question about it. At work we use a macro program to automate server and network maintennance and it's quite capable of reading the screen and making its own decisions. It can be quite eerie sometimes when you are interacting with it. it also makes them more easy to detect, i understand. chatting to a blizz employee (boo! hiss!) when i played wow he told me that bots were much easier to spot than macros due to their monotonous predictability, even with variable timers wrote in.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:24:00 - [18] not sure about including a macro engine in Eve. i don't think it'd be a good thing. Human error plays a big part of the game - in some fights the only reason you win is because the other guy ****** up. add another level of automation and that user-error factor will disappear and pvp will simply become a case of who clicks first.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:27:00 - [19] Originally by: Ebusitanus [...Ebusitanus is irritated...] It [also] irritates that someone dumps the rules and the "pain" that would come through legit mining and has a program do all that for him while he is in the livingroom watching TV. Why is this hard to understand? whenever i need cash i sit and run missions or rat whilst either watching TV or playing Nintendo DS. It hardly requires much attention, and i'd imagine mining even less so.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:34:00 - [20] Originally by: Patch86 OK, picture the situation: ok! Quote: Person A is an honest player. like us! Quote: Person B is a macro-user. boo! hiss! Quote: Person C is a hacker. like Neo! Quote: Now I ask you- aside from the fact that it took Person B a few weeks to achieve what Person C did in 10 minutes, in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating? not in the slightest, i'm not disputing that it's cheating. But what does he then do with his ill-gotten gains? sell it on the internet probably, so he's gained nothing in-game for it and quickly moves on to a different account. The isk seller then flogs the cash to some chump willing to risk his account for isk, and too lazy to buy GTCs. The isk seller has no in-game presence beyond accounts for shuffling cash. The chump who bought the isk now has loads of money, aside from the fact that it took him a few hours to achieve what could have been achived in a few days if he'd bought and sold bought GTCs. in what way does it differ? In what way is it any less cheating?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.25 12:45:00 - [21] Edited by: ry ry on 25/04/2007 12:46:48 Originally by: Lynae It works like RL. When the big supermarket over there has opening hours from 7 AM to 2 AM, the small store next door (open from 7 AM to 7 PM) cannot keep up. The difference is, there are still workers in both stores, even more shifts in the big supermarket, so it is fair. Imagine a macro miner as a 24h store, just with 1 robot as the only personnel. Does not sleep, needs no food, water or air. Always there for your customers. How should someone compete with that? i wonder how much is an actual loss, and how much is simply a reduced profit margin. what about new players trying to compete with large mining alliances, or noob-corp dwelling miner alts? surely they will struggle to match the prices offered by an alliance using a capship fleet to mine, unless the capship miners are making no effort to compete on price and are - dare i say it - selling minerals at whatever inflated price the market will withstand, rather than competing with their fellow miners. Oligopoly be damned, that's price fixing isn't it? and yes! i realise that every counterpoint i've raised has been in the form of a question, but i'm rather objective in all this (being neither a miner, nor an isk dealer)which is why i find it so fascinating. EDIT: and we're talking about freelance empire miners here, right? surely alliance miners and 0.0 miners are pumping their proceeds back into corp rather than selling them on the open market, and are able to protect their mining grounds.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.26 11:57:00 - [22] Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 11:57:24 Originally by: Grunanca You really need to listen to what people are saying to you... Macro miners are a PROGRAM WHICH MEANS NOT A PLAYER! If you play the game while watching television, who is pressing the buttons? YOU! If a program does it while the macro runner watches TV, he will be F****** his girlfriend or something like it which makes him unable to press any buttons at all.. i understand what a macro is, thx. what i don't see why somebody automating tedious tasks fills you with CAPSLOCK RAGE. What if i phone the GF from work and get her to log in and change my skills for me - is that cheating? is that account sharing? would you feel the need to hurl abuse at my gf for being a filthy macro-er? I understand why CCP want macros out the game, and i understand why players wouldn't use them, but for a Joe Average like you why are they such an irritation? And for the love of god, don't just reply "BECASUE THEY ARE CHEATINGWITH A PROGRAM!!! THEY NOT EVEN DOING THE BUTTON PUSH!!" i was looking for the reasoning behind your blind hatred, not a description of what constitutes a macro. Do they cheapen your own endeavours? Does the ease with which they gain money make you jealous? perhaps you just don't like the idea of making IRL profits from a computer game? are you concerned that they're crippling CCP financially? there must be something more than simply them being able to watch TV as they mine?
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.26 11:58:00 - [23] Edited by: ry ry on 26/04/2007 11:54:33 Originally by: PuncherDavis Umm this thing aint been locked or transfered to the main macro mining thread...which is that way>>>>>>>> kind of surprised because it's not a generic OMG BAN MACROES CCP thread, and until you posted that pretty much every comment so far had been constructive in some way.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.30 11:27:00 - [24] it's not my choice to go to work - it's just that i don't like wearing clothes made out of old sacks, eating out of bins and living in a cardboard box. having time to play all day - for whatever reason - is an advantage over those who only get a few hours in the evening. it's not really open for discussion; it's just common sense.
ry ry StateCorp	Posted - 2007.04.30 12:08:00 - [25] Edited by: ry ry on 30/04/2007 12:12:28 but why? besides, i was interested in people's opinions, and wanted them to elaborate a little, rather than just cack like BECAUSE I SAID SO. i don't like peas but not being able to actually explain why i don't like them renders my opinion on peas in general slightly invalid. In the case of peas this is all cool, nobody gives a toss about peas, but certain individuals get all frothy about macros. Macros aren't exactly 'cheating' per se - many mmos have their own macro engines so you can automate repetitive tasks, so this eve-specific MACRO EVIL! frothieness is all a bit mystifying. genuinely wondered why. EDIT: also, it appears that most people don't even grasp the concept properly - a macro isn't a fully fledged mining bot, in the same way a snowflake isn't an avalanche.

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