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Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2017.02.15 04:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Alderson Point wrote:"Won't someone think of the gankers?" ROFL =ƒñú
Actually, a small number of strategic bridges, would add to the game if it was done sympathetically, widen options, and add interest, rather than people knowing Everything ends up going via niarja and uedama at some point or other. I'd give it about 5 minutes after the introduction of empire bridges before people start camping them and otherwise using them to their advantage, 10 minutes before the calls for nerfs appear on the forums because somebody exploded. This is Eve. If there's a way to bend a mechanic without actually breaking the rules, people will find it and use it.
"Everything man-made is imperfect, so nothing ever works"?
It's the perfect argument for or against anything: you can use it to justify any change; you can use it to claim any change will not have the intended positive effect; and you can use it to claim any given change will make things worse.
It's obviously true that if they wanted to, CCP could:
- make travel more convenient
- modify the stellar system topology to add more access points (reducing the effect of inappropriate choke-points)
- make a small(ish) number of jump gates, even in low/null-sec, that could not be camped
Of course they wouldn't do a perfect job of these things, but they could do them well enough to make them reasonably effective/useful. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27624
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 04:38:45 -
[32] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I'd give it about 5 minutes after the introduction of empire bridges before people start camping them and otherwise using them to their advantage, 10 minutes before the calls for nerfs appear on the forums because somebody exploded.
This is Eve.
If there's a way to bend a mechanic without actually breaking the rules, people will find it and use it. "Everything man-made is imperfect, so nothing ever works"? It's the perfect argument for or against anything: you can use it to justify any change; you can use it to claim any change will not have the intended positive effect; and you can use it to claim any given change will make things worse. I've merely pointed out that people will use them in unintended ways, and that people will die on them then whine on the forums about it.
I'm all for change, and the concept offers some interesting opportunities for those inclined to take advantage of them, but the introduction of empire jump bridges would not be something taken lightly, the ramifications of it for the game as a whole would rival that of player built gates.
Quote:It's obviously true that if they wanted to, CCP could:
- make travel more convenient
- modify the stellar system topology to add more access points (reducing the effect of inappropriate choke-points)
- make a small(ish) number of jump gates, even in low/null-sec, that could not be camped
Of course they wouldn't do a perfect job of these things, but they could do them well enough to make them reasonably effective/useful. The question is not about if CCP could, it's about if CCP should.
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5552
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Posted - 2017.02.15 04:49:25 -
[33] - Quote
I think CCP should first fix all the bugs, finish module tiericide and ship rebalancing.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
27624
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 04:49:38 -
[34] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If you can camp it, you can charge people for safe passage through your camp  Scan their ships, use a percentage value as your toll. Expect people to be unhappy and call you a sociopath. Assuming the destination ends where we tell them it does... We could rent out a gate-camp at the end.  You might appreciate this 
In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
New Player FAQ
Feyd's Survival Pack
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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
5552
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Posted - 2017.02.15 04:54:30 -
[35] - Quote
Damn that's twisted!
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Cade Windstalker
784
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Posted - 2017.02.15 05:01:30 -
[36] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If you can camp it, you can charge people for safe passage through your camp Scan their ships, use a percentage value as your toll. Expect people to be unhappy and call you a sociopath. Assuming the destination ends where we tell them it does... We could rent out a gate-camp at the end. You might appreciate this
I am disappoint that the image link there doesn't seem to work anymore :( |
Cade Windstalker
784
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 05:05:46 -
[37] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:"Everything man-made is imperfect, so nothing ever works"? It's the perfect argument for or against anything: you can use it to justify any change; you can use it to claim any change will not have the intended positive effect; and you can use it to claim any given change will make things worse. It's obviously true that if they wanted to, CCP could:
- make travel more convenient
- modify the stellar system topology to add more access points (reducing the effect of inappropriate choke-points)
- make a small(ish) number of jump gates, even in low/null-sec, that could not be camped
Of course they wouldn't do a perfect job of these things, but they could do them well enough to make them reasonably effective/useful.
See, the actual problem here is you want space to be easier to traverse and for there to be (apparently) no choke points. Various members of the player base, probably a majority by my estimation, and CCP have reasons why this should not be the case, many of which have been elaborated in this thread.
As someone else said, the question isn't if they can or even if they would do a good job towards your objective, it's if they should do these things at all. Personally I don't think the benefits here outweigh the costs, and I don't think you even appreciate that there are costs to something like this.
Making space smaller has negative consequences, as does making travel easier. Eve is big, and that comes with a lot of benefits, like groups not being able to rush from one camping spot to another or easily threaten space a long way away from themselves.
In fact the Jump Fatigue changes were something to remove exactly the sort of travel system you're requesting be added here, where players could quickly and almost effortlessly get from one end of Eve to the other in about 10 minutes. It was horrible, we're better off with it gone. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
301
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Posted - 2017.02.15 06:19:56 -
[38] - Quote
MMO's reiterate that old saw about time having value, and that value varies.
So we get MMOs charging money for timed subscriptions.
We get players making money doing time consuming stuff; like mining or haulage.
We aren't really doing those activities, we are literally spending time to earn some currency or other.
CCP could do the same, if they were in the value making business.
For instance charge for quick travel.
Doesn't really matter which currency to use, they all tie in to each other.
Say 50 million ISK to use an NPC Jump to fast travel. Perhaps tie the price to distance and the current value of PLEX.
Time is money CCP.
*puts up taxi sign*
~
~~
Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox.
~~
~
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Omar Alharazaad
Devils Rejects 666
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
3244
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 06:25:06 -
[39] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If you can camp it, you can charge people for safe passage through your camp Scan their ships, use a percentage value as your toll. Expect people to be unhappy and call you a sociopath. Assuming the destination ends where we tell them it does... We could rent out a gate-camp at the end. You might appreciate this
Genius.
Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
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Marcus Binchiette
Pyrotech Creations
82
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Posted - 2017.02.15 06:32:54 -
[40] - Quote
I have some thoughts on this:
1. It's an interesting idea. Though will likely have economic implications for transport and the market.
2. Those economic impacts would need to be offset with some kind of fuel cost. Using the jump-bridge should be an expensive process, and should become even more so with increase mass being put through it.
3. Limiting those jump bridges to combat vessels only is a stupid idea. It promotes all of the downsides of force projection, ganker mobility, wardec mobility, without any of the positives... Namely reducing the tedium of moving stuff from point A to point B. |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
3606
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 06:58:27 -
[41] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:make travel more convenient
It is inconvenient for a reason.
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
395
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 08:47:44 -
[42] - Quote
we don't need jump bridges, we have some regions that just need a new stargate connection to bring about people wanting to be in the regions
"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
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Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
51
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Posted - 2017.02.15 09:18:28 -
[43] - Quote
Ima Wreckyou wrote:Hakawai wrote:make travel more convenient It is inconvenient for a reason.
But is it a good reason? And is it profitable for CCP?
Making a game inconvenient contributes to the real reason most people stop playing games: they get bored ... the fun/hour just isn't high enough, and another activity is found. I doubt this is good for CCP. Of course CCP's "pointy-headed managers" can't know what contributes most to people getting bored an leaving (and they certainly won't find out by reading this forum /lol). But I doubt there's anyone without an ulterior notice who thinks moving around inside highsec adds to the fun of playing EVE.
Note that nobody sane has suggested "instant travel from any location to any other location".
There have been some straw man arguments suggesting this, but they serve only to identify people who can't think straight.
Of course it's possible CCP wants to make highsec so boring new players won't stay there. But I think it's a risky tactic - there are (at least) two ways to avoid highsec boredom, one of which leads away from EVE. |
Kaeden 3142
State Protectorate
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 09:27:06 -
[44] - Quote
It has been said that opening of rifts in the space time continuum could mean allowing a hostile entities on board our ships or even empire space. |
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
1211
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 09:31:35 -
[45] - Quote
If you absolutely *must*, you can make an ersatz jump bridge out of a couple of Black Ops battleships. The only restriction is that the destination has to be in low or null space. I have used a BLOPS to bridge in Blockade Runners from hisewc and avoid particularly nasty gatecamps (and *effort*).
tiberiusric wrote:but its OK for 0.0 alliances to have them then? whats the difference?
there are several key differences.
1: The not insignificant task of taking and holding Sov in two systems for your Jump Bridge.
2: The not insignificant expense of taking and holding said Sov and installing the required iHub upgrade to allow you to actually anchor the damn thing, along with it's partner and the relevant Cyno beacons. Incidentally, at 100,000m^3 we need at least a Jump Freighter to anchor said Bridge module.
3: The not insignificant hassle required to keep the damnable things fueled.
Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze
This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
3606
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 09:46:26 -
[46] - Quote
Hakawai wrote:Ima Wreckyou wrote:Hakawai wrote:make travel more convenient It is inconvenient for a reason. But is it a good reason? And is it profitable for CCP?
Yes it is a good reason
Hakawai wrote:
Making a game inconvenient contributes to the real reason most people stop playing games: they get bored ... the fun/hour just isn't high enough, and another activity is found. I doubt this is good for CCP. Of course CCP's "pointy-headed managers" can't know what contributes most to people getting bored an leaving (and they certainly won't find out by reading this forum /lol). But I doubt there's anyone without an ulterior notice who thinks moving around inside highsec adds to the fun of playing EVE.
Note that nobody sane has suggested "instant travel from any location to any other location".
There have been some straw man arguments suggesting this, but they serve only to identify people who can't think straight.
Of course it's possible CCP wants to make highsec so boring new players won't stay there. But I think it's a risky tactic - there are (at least) two ways to avoid highsec boredom, one of which leads away from EVE.
If you look at this forums almost every feature request is introduced with some variation of the "people are leaving EVE because [constructed problem]" and "new players will not stick around because [constructed problem]". Just claiming your constructed problem is the reason EVE is loosing subscribers is not sufficient to use it as a valid argument in favour of your proposal.
There are literally hundreds of completely different claims in different posts in F&I everyone with it's own version on why people are leaving and why their silly idea is fixing it.
Please show us some evidence that at least suggests that they are leaving/not subscribing because moving around Highsec in inconvenient.
Further, as many explained before, distance between systems adds value in many forms and makes a lot of stuff happen which would completely vanish if we had fast lanes. Stuff like: regional trade hubs, freighter services, price gradients between regions and many many more.
Your idea would destroy a big junk of the EVE economy, so you have to motivate it a bit more than just "it is inconvenient to me, so people quit over it".
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels
122
|
Posted - 2017.02.15 12:58:07 -
[47] - Quote
Never used a jump bridge bur as far as I can tell it's a fuel Fed gate that goes for way longer distances. Like a highway right?
Personally I'm not find of the map in this game. It's a pain in the ass to see anything or figure out where anything is unless you're zoomed all the way in or out.
If I had my way I would have two gates in high sec split between system and constellation.
You have gates as they are now unchanged between the systems, but I would have a constellation gate at the entrance and end of every constellation. And possibly a system for for forking them into multiple directions.
So on the map instead of having to look at this blob and mess with all the regions/system/constel settings to separate this up it would be pre split. All zoomed out everything is shown as normal, as you zoom in only your current constellation would be shown with two layers. On top your direct route (highway system) occasionally a gate or two in the middle when they branch out in different directions, and on the bottom the system to system. Adjacent constellations would be should as well or anywhere you have a waypoint. Options are still there i just think it would be a cleaner travel friendly default option.
If you want to move a bit quicker you can use the highway gates that could allow me to hop right through a constellation, but if I want to go somewhere specific I have to get off of these gates whatever system they're in and go system to system for more remote locations. So if the current system was a to b and it was 30 jumps, the highway might cut it down to 10 jumps but only if I'm going through certain areas to certain destinations if I wanna go somewhere remote or tucked away I gotta go jump by jump.
The highway gates wouldnt be as fast as normal gates, you'd have a warp animation like you do know and it would be locked for all. Ships at a certain speed so it wouldn't be instantaneous jumps across lots of systems. It would just lower how much clicking and navigation you have to do and then you sit back and your ship cruises along and you warp to the next highway gate in whatever system it spits you out in. It would shave time off of jump in manually system to system with a fixed warp tunnel to account for some of the time youd spend warpingbetween individual gates but it would be slower than an individual ships warp. So say a leopard. You'd want to just stay off and do your super fast warping system by system, but for something big and slow you can save yourself some trouble and just take the slow highway to get around to where you generally wanna be then go system by system from there and you could get on a in different highway.
High road/low road
At least that's the half baked idea I had when being pissy about the new beta map when I started playing again at ascension but good god the old map isn't any better either. They're both truly awful and I had forgotten how bad they were.
Mostly I just think it's the awful map that makes warping around and general navigation a pain more so than the actual travel itself.
If I'm in x system why is it showing systems right next to me that I can't get to. It's under me but its 20 jumps to sit zig zag all around and get to that spot? Get rid of it and just show me the general area where I am and what constellations in front of me and behind me or to the sides that I can actually go to from my current area. I generally dont need to see the one that's right underneath me in 3d space zigzagging all around cluttering up the map.
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