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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5988
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Posted - 2017.02.25 22:14:01 -
[1] - Quote
No.
The Mutuality of Freighter Ganking
Ganking, especially freighters, has as much to do with the idiocy of the freighter pilot as the ganker. In fact, the freighter pilot's idiocy has to precede the actions of the suicide gankers. First, the freighter pilot does something idiotic (usually several idiotic somethings) then and only then can the suicide gankers act.
First, the rise of professional ganking organizations is a direct result of this kind of nonsense. Before ganking was a rather desultory activity. You worried about it, but not like today. Groups like CODE. and Miniluv, the latter of which ganks almost entirely for profit, were not a thing.
Second, nobody ganks every 15 minutes 24 hours/day. The reason why you get groups that can do that, like Miniluv, is because of requests like this.
Maybe you should stop making requests like this.
Third your idea would impact LS pirates too. It is ****** game design if you nerf the game play of people who are not in the target group.
As for Alphas, why limit their game play? What if they want to try LS pirating or suicide ganking to see if it is a career path they'd like to pursue in game and maybe even lead to them going Omega after finding out if they like it or not.
No, this is idea is **** from beginning to end. Even if you had just written the word '****' in place of every word in your current post it could not get any shittier.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5988
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Posted - 2017.02.25 22:15:33 -
[2] - Quote
Orca Platypus wrote:Omnathious Deninard wrote:All together now, just one more nerf and it will be balanced. You mean at least one nerf. All we've seen for years now are buffs, buffs, and more buffs, until the hardest part of ganking became logging in your alpha clone gank alt.
You are a liar. Ganking has gotten progressively more difficult. Did you know you could collect insurance on your gank ship and people used to use battleships?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5988
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Posted - 2017.02.25 22:17:03 -
[3] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Black Pedro wrote:Erich Einstein wrote: CONCORD should respond differently if a pilot's security status falls low enough in a particular highsec system. This second phase of aggression would consist of stations and jump gates instantly webbing and warp-disrupting while CONCORD moves in. This prevents serial criminals from freely moving through highsec and also prevent gank fleets from staging in highsec systems unless they control their security status correctly.
If you prevent criminals from moving around highsec, how will they, you know, be criminals? Simple, by managing their security status. This is a phase two concord thing for those career boys.
Then they are not criminals.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5988
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Posted - 2017.02.25 22:18:29 -
[4] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Locko DeLavida wrote:Yea, better nerf things that are actually fun rather than balance broken ships and useless ships. Nice Its not fun for those getting ganked... their are two sides to every story. Also, the people you are ganking have put in more game time gathering their cargo than you do stealing it. Eve should not be that easy!
Those getting ganked were being stupid. Being stupid should never be fun or without consequences.
And yes, there are two sides and yet you are only paying attention to one side.
Edit:
And it is debatable that the freighter pilot has put in more time gathering his cargo. How long does it take to buy a few billion ISK of stuff? A few minutes. Probably less than 30 minutes. But lets say an hour.
Now, how much time is invested in the gank. Let me see, there is the guy who has been sitting on the undock scanning stuff. How long has he been waiting for a target to undock? Then there is the bumping ship. How long has he been waiting? Then there is the fleet itself. Granted, they might have sent out a ping and it formed in a fairly short time, but still it could take say 20-30 minutes. And there might be say, 25 guys in fleet. So when we start adding up all that time it is far from clear who has more time invested. One scrub or the 25-30 guys who are going to gank his scrub ass for being a dope.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5989
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Posted - 2017.02.25 23:29:32 -
[5] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
This is complete BS... all it takes to stop a freighter in its tracks is one mach bumper... nothing else! and you cant get away from it by logging or anything else if they also target you. Then the gank teams shows up when they can and you go down. This happens every 15min 24hours a day out of Jita V - Moon 17 station (goons).
Empty freighters are rarely bumped and ganked.
Freighters without that much cargo value are rarely bumped or ganked.
Freighters piloted by an idiot who but 6.5 billion ISK worth cargo in the hold...those get bumped and ganked.
So, the implication is, don't be an idiot.
If you actually engaged your brain and looked at the underlying incentives you'd realize there is NO problem with suicide ganking of freighters. It is correcting people who were stupid.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5989
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Posted - 2017.02.25 23:37:35 -
[6] - Quote
Alderson Point wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No. The Mutuality of Freighter GankingGanking, especially freighters, has as much to do with the idiocy of the freighter pilot as the ganker. In fact, the freighter pilot's idiocy has to precede the actions of the suicide gankers. First, the freighter pilot does something idiotic (usually several idiotic somethings) then and only then can the suicide gankers act. First, the rise of professional ganking organizations is a direct result of this kind of nonsense. Before ganking was a rather desultory activity. You worried about it, but not like today. Groups like CODE. and Miniluv, the latter of which ganks almost entirely for profit, were not a thing. Second, nobody ganks every 15 minutes 24 hours/day. The reason why you get groups that can do that, like Miniluv, is because of requests like this. Maybe you should stop making requests like this. Third your idea would impact LS pirates too. It is ****** game design if you nerf the game play of people who are not in the target group. As for Alphas, why limit their game play? What if they want to try LS pirating or suicide ganking to see if it is a career path they'd like to pursue in game and maybe even lead to them going Omega after finding out if they like it or not. No, this is idea is **** from beginning to end. Even if you had just written the word '****' in place of every word in your current post it could not get any shittier. I am not against ganking, however blaming the Victim only works when the predator doesn't massacre every target it sees. When empty freighters and low value industrials can travel without being blown up for lutz, then you may have the beginnings of a valid argument. Reddit just witnessed gankers compaining they didn't make any real money because most of the "kills" were not ever going to be profitable. They still continued. So this argument fails, When ganking has sufficient deterrence, that only profitable Ganks are undertaken, then we will be nearer to balance. Op has a valid point.
Blame the victim? WITF? He is a victim of his own stupidity. Nobody has a right to move a crap ton of valuable stuff IN THIS GAME with out the consequences. It isn't the case that he had a legal right to be safe and secure when undocking. No, not in THIS GAME.
You are conflating what happens OUT OF GAME with what happens IN GAME. The two are not the same.
So your argument is not even relevant to my claims. Try again and leave the real world morals at the login window.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5989
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Posted - 2017.02.25 23:46:49 -
[7] - Quote
I want to be clear on this "blame the victim" bullshit that some try to trot out as some sort of justification against ganking.
In the real world, for example, if you are a woman you have the right to walk around without being raped. There are no additional qualifiers about time of day, style of clothing, etc. Those are the social norms and how the laws work. So, when somebody says, "Oh she was raped because she dressed like a ****." That is considered blaming the victim. That is wrong because our social norms and laws say that is not valid reason to **** a woman (and in fact there is no valid reason for raping a woman, or a man for that matter).
Now. In game, is there a social norm or law or the like that says: You can turn your ship into a ginormous loot pinata and fly around in HS space unmolested?
No.
Let me repeat that. No.
You have no expectation of being able to fly around unmolested at all. If I decide to accept the consequences of shooting you in HS, I can shoot you in HS.
That is the social norm and "law" of this game.
When you go further and turn your ship into a loot pinata you are literally asking for trouble. You are taking on considerable risk. And when that downside risk materializes and you lose your stuff. Well...tough ****.
So knock of this infantile SJW bullshit of "you're blaming the victim." Grow up and learn the culture of the game you are playing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 01:19:18 -
[8] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I want to be clear on this "blame the victim" bullshit that some try to trot out as some sort of justification against ganking.
In the real world, for example, if you are a woman you have the right to walk around without being raped. There are no additional qualifiers about time of day, style of clothing, etc. Those are the social norms and how the laws work. So, when somebody says, "Oh she was raped because she dressed like a ****." That is considered blaming the victim. That is wrong because our social norms and laws say that is not valid reason to **** a woman (and in fact there is no valid reason for raping a woman, or a man for that matter).
Now. In game, is there a social norm or law or the like that says: You can turn your ship into a ginormous loot pinata and fly around in HS space unmolested?
No.
Let me repeat that. No.
You have no expectation of being able to fly around unmolested at all. If I decide to accept the consequences of shooting you in HS, I can shoot you in HS.
That is the social norm and "law" of this game.
When you go further and turn your ship into a loot pinata you are literally asking for trouble. You are taking on considerable risk. And when that downside risk materializes and you lose your stuff. Well...tough ****.
So knock of this infantile SJW bullshit of "you're blaming the victim." Grow up and learn the culture of the game you are playing. Sorry man.... stop ganking empty hulls for the lul's and you may have a point.
Again, that is not how it works in game. You can be shot anywhere.
And ganking empty hulls, outside of Burn events, is rare.
You are just being deliberately obtuse.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 01:21:37 -
[9] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:I am, by no means an expert on hi-sec "career gankers" or how the fu*ck they are called but to me this whole thing sounds stupid.
If people undock with **** that is worth ganking -> they might end up on the receiving end of the gankers. If people know how to haul their **** they wont.
Our logi guys hauling **** on a daily basis and there are no losses. I wonder how the **** is getting moved from low-sec/null-sec to Jita? :D My own hauler girl is shipping a lot of thing from and to Jita and I think I lost one (1) DST in three years. At the end of the day hi-sec ganking seems to me like all the other things people make money with. You take from the stupid, the inexperienced, the lazy ones. But the people who have enough brainjuice to learn from their mistakes won-Št fuel the ganking fleets. So why should CCP change anything? Learn from your mistakes and don-Št stay stupid and you won-Št lose your freighter. Additionally, as long as I see freighters autopiloting through hi-sec there are not enough gankers around. :D Pulling in 50bil a day from highsec ganks should not be an intended and permanent source of income. Go to null and battle another corp if you need those kinds of returns.
Why aren't you talking to the idiots that make that income available?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 01:23:03 -
[10] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: Because logic?
Try commiting any crimes in rl and tell me how fast you are able to come back to the same city / place or whatever doing your next crime?
You for sure wont come back there within 15 minutes, or even a day. That's for sure.
Exactly, you wont be back anytime soon. And if you commit even more crimes after you are released from jail from doing the first crime, then you will be punished even harder by the police where you freedom will be even more long gone.
RL? You mean like how flying in space is like flying in water? And never mind that it is a game and not RL?
Is that the kind of logic you are referring too?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 01:28:51 -
[11] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Trajan Unknown wrote:I am, by no means an expert on hi-sec "career gankers" or how the fu*ck they are called but to me this whole thing sounds stupid.
If people undock with **** that is worth ganking -> they might end up on the receiving end of the gankers. If people know how to haul their **** they wont.
Our logi guys hauling **** on a daily basis and there are no losses. I wonder how the **** is getting moved from low-sec/null-sec to Jita? :D My own hauler girl is shipping a lot of thing from and to Jita and I think I lost one (1) DST in three years. At the end of the day hi-sec ganking seems to me like all the other things people make money with. You take from the stupid, the inexperienced, the lazy ones. But the people who have enough brainjuice to learn from their mistakes won-Št fuel the ganking fleets. So why should CCP change anything? Learn from your mistakes and don-Št stay stupid and you won-Št lose your freighter. Additionally, as long as I see freighters autopiloting through hi-sec there are not enough gankers around. :D Pulling in 50bil a day from highsec ganks should not be an intended and permanent source of income. Go to null and battle another corp if you need those kinds of returns. Why aren't you talking to the idiots that make that income available? Because its not balanced...
If the idiots stop overfilling their freighters the income goes away. Duh. Cripes you're dumb.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 01:29:36 -
[12] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote: Because logic?
Try commiting any crimes in rl and tell me how fast you are able to come back to the same city / place or whatever doing your next crime?
You for sure wont come back there within 15 minutes, or even a day. That's for sure.
Exactly, you wont be back anytime soon. And if you commit even more crimes after you are released from jail from doing the first crime, then you will be punished even harder by the police where you freedom will be even more long gone.
RL? You mean like how flying in space is like flying in water? And never mind that it is a game and not RL? Is that the kind of logic you are referring too? Just because everything is not completely life-like does not mean that games do not inspire to be life-like.
The norms in game are different than the norms out of game. Trying to draw false equivalences is stupid. So stop being stupid.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 01:31:22 -
[13] - Quote
CCP should not be balancing player's actions. If a player takes on too much risk it is not CCP's problem, it is the players problem. You can't patch out stupid. Yet here we have the OP trying to patch out stupid.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 01:32:58 -
[14] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote: Because logic?
Try commiting any crimes in rl and tell me how fast you are able to come back to the same city / place or whatever doing your next crime?
You for sure wont come back there within 15 minutes, or even a day. That's for sure.
Exactly, you wont be back anytime soon. And if you commit even more crimes after you are released from jail from doing the first crime, then you will be punished even harder by the police where you freedom will be even more long gone.
RL? You mean like how flying in space is like flying in water? And never mind that it is a game and not RL? Is that the kind of logic you are referring too? So just because "it's a game", there should be no rl logic in the game?
No, of course not. Your logic is flawed because the norms in game are not the same as RL. Stealing in RL is not tolerated, yet there is virtually no in game mechanism to punish a corp thief or a scammer.
OMG!!! CCP!!! Fix scamming. Patch it out. It is not like RL.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 01:39:31 -
[15] - Quote
This is not Candy Land, this is EVE. If you take on too much risk, you bear the consequences. The OP is just flat out wrong on the basic nature of the game. Don't take on more risk than you can tolerate. That's it. A freighter being suicide ganked generally the player has taken on too much risk.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 02:02:15 -
[16] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:So just because "it's a game", there should be no rl logic in the game? No, of course not. Your logic is flawed because the norms in game are not the same as RL. Stealing in RL is not tolerated, yet there is virtually no in game mechanism to punish a corp thief or a scammer. OMG!!! CCP!!! Fix scamming. Patch it out. It is not like RL. If you find out who stole from you in EVE, there is basicly a million ways you can hunt that player down and make his ingame life miserable. So that excuse doesn't hold water
Please. You can say the same thing to those who suicide gank. But you aren't you want CCP to punish them. And you talk of logic.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 02:04:46 -
[17] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:This is not Candy Land, this is EVE. If you take on too much risk, you bear the consequences. The OP is just flat out wrong on the basic nature of the game. Don't take on more risk than you can tolerate. That's it. A freighter being suicide ganked generally the player has taken on too much risk. Is lame excuses all you can give? You don't even give any reasonable arguments or reasons why there shouldn't be a system in EVE like i mentioned. So why should we listen to you? You said this is EVE yadda yadda yadda. Yes we know it's EVE, but EVE still has to be balanced both towards normal players AND the gankers.
I keep repeating it hoping you'll understand the point. The freighter pilot creates the ganking opportunity by overloading his freighter. You keep calling it lame because you can't logically refute the point.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
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Posted - 2017.02.26 02:08:05 -
[18] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:This is not Candy Land, this is EVE. If you take on too much risk, you bear the consequences. The OP is just flat out wrong on the basic nature of the game. Don't take on more risk than you can tolerate. That's it. A freighter being suicide ganked generally the player has taken on too much risk. You obviously dont know that goons sit in jita ganking whatever they can 24 hours a day. They are able to sit in 0.9 and 1.0 system stations with -10.0 security status. When they undock they dont even have to worry about faction police. They jump whereever they want and gank whatever they want without any negating gameplay effects whatsoever. All it takes is a mach bumper on each gate and they can stop any freighter that they desire and hold them as long as they desire. Bumpers do not go suspect and can even target the freighter so that it cant log out for 15min. Its a complete joke.
Aside from Burn events Goons gank for profit as a general rule. The profit is created by the freighter pilot overloading his freighter.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5990
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 02:17:02 -
[19] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:This is not Candy Land, this is EVE. If you take on too much risk, you bear the consequences. The OP is just flat out wrong on the basic nature of the game. Don't take on more risk than you can tolerate. That's it. A freighter being suicide ganked generally the player has taken on too much risk. Is lame excuses all you can give? You don't even give any reasonable arguments or reasons why there shouldn't be a system in EVE like i mentioned. So why should we listen to you? You said this is EVE yadda yadda yadda. Yes we know it's EVE, but EVE still has to be balanced both towards normal players AND the gankers. I keep repeating it hoping you'll understand the point. The freighter pilot creates the ganking opportunity by overloading his freighter. You keep calling it lame because you can't logically refute the point. Have you never heard of "agree to disagree." You dont need to keep repeating your point. We get it.
You get it. Then why do you have a problem with ganking? The player getting ganked had the power to avoid the gank he chose not too. Why do you want to shield such players from the consequences of their foolishness.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5992
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 03:19:30 -
[20] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:This is not Candy Land, this is EVE. If you take on too much risk, you bear the consequences. The OP is just flat out wrong on the basic nature of the game. Don't take on more risk than you can tolerate. That's it. A freighter being suicide ganked generally the player has taken on too much risk. You obviously dont know that goons sit in jita ganking whatever they can 24 hours a day. They are able to sit in 0.9 and 1.0 system stations with -10.0 security status. When they undock they dont even have to worry about faction police. They jump whereever they want and gank whatever they want without any negating gameplay effects whatsoever. All it takes is a mach bumper on each gate and they can stop any freighter that they desire and hold them as long as they desire. Bumpers do not go suspect and can even target the freighter so that it cant log out for 15min. Its a complete joke.
And yet all of this can be avoided by:
1. Not over stuffing your freighter. 2. Using a scout. 3. Having your scout use webs.
There are options for prudent play but the OP prefers to reward stupidity.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5992
|
Posted - 2017.02.26 03:26:03 -
[21] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:This is not Candy Land, this is EVE. If you take on too much risk, you bear the consequences. The OP is just flat out wrong on the basic nature of the game. Don't take on more risk than you can tolerate. That's it. A freighter being suicide ganked generally the player has taken on too much risk. Is lame excuses all you can give? You don't even give any reasonable arguments or reasons why there shouldn't be a system in EVE like i mentioned. So why should we listen to you? You said this is EVE yadda yadda yadda. Yes we know it's EVE, but EVE still has to be balanced both towards normal players AND the gankers. I keep repeating it hoping you'll understand the point. The freighter pilot creates the ganking opportunity by overloading his freighter. You keep calling it lame because you can't logically refute the point. And the cash-transport car also creates the ambush / stealing oppoturnity for peoples who want to do crimes / steal money. But that alone doesn't mean the criminals can just keep going and steal the money everytime they see a cash-transport car with no consequences for continueing to do that. Your excuses doesn't work.
Let me see, they use an armored car and the guards have weapons...and they work in a society where people are not even contemplating trying to rob it. Oh yeah...and there are no clones for us to wake up in RL if we get killed.
Yeah, that is a totally valid comparison.[/sarcasm]
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5992
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Posted - 2017.02.26 03:28:19 -
[22] - Quote
Circo Maximo wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:CCP should not be balancing player's actions. If a player takes on too much risk it is not CCP's problem, it is the players problem. You can't patch out stupid. Yet here we have the OP trying to patch out stupid. Who are you to say what CCP should be doing. CCP is a business and whatever makes gameplay more enjoyable for all is aloud to be changed. There are regular content / features patches for a reason. Its called reactive development. Players are punished in highsec by being killed and lowered security status where they aren't free to fly anywhere without being chased and killed. What is your issue? No one is entitled to being invincible while outnumbered. Make your ship economically unfeasible to be killed and profited from, the end. If people can form fleets to kill you, you should have to put in the same effort to stay alive as well. Get organized and get good instead of putting all your effort into crying for CCP to save you from your own ineptitude.
Also, "don't put all your eggs in one basket".
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 03:52:49 -
[23] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: 1. So that means i can't take money with me or my smartphone in my jacket when i'm out walking, just because there can be thieves that can just rob me time after times?
Ofc not. You will take those things with you because the police are there to catch those thieves and punish them. And if they later are robbing others again, then ofc the police will punish them even harder for comitting the same crimes over again. Or what do you think, they should get a clap on the shoulder being told not to do those nasty things everytime?
You don't live in New Eden. Different set or norms and laws/rules. So right off you are looking silly. Second, a smart phone and even a couple hundred in cash is not like stuffing half your life's savings into your wallet. Even in RL, if you took half your wealth, stuck in your pocket and went walking down the street most people would consider that imprudent. After all, if you need to move half your wealth from A to B you could just go over to B open an account and write a check against your account in A. You could have A transfer it. You have options for far, far safer modes of moving large amounts of wealth.
NightmareX wrote:2. Yeah, let's just call my friend that has to hold my hand everytime i go to the grocery store so he can look around for some baddies or naughty peoples so i don't gets scared by them.
Not only that, but you don't see a freaking police car in front of a moneytransporter car everytime they are going to deliver money or whatever.
You are the one wanting hand holding by not just a friend, but by all powerful NPCs. The ironic is so rich here.
NightmareX wrote:3. You shouldn't have to use an alt to be able to fly a freighter in a normal way in empire. Yes, you can use an alt for some extra benefits that way. But you shouldn't have to use one with the freighter pilot to be able to use the damn things in empire.
Who said alt. Ask a friend. You do have friends in game, right? I've had a friend scout for me. I've scouted for friends.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 03:53:36 -
[24] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:Circo Maximo wrote:Where did you get the idea that you should be able to be invincible in highsec? CCP has never told you this. You should need to be organized to protect yourself in an MMO. There are single player games available if you don't want to play with others. I have nowhere in my statements said high sec should be invincible. Do you read what i'm saying bro? All i have said that the gankers should get harder and harder times against Concord the more they gank each day. What's bad about that? If you want ganking to be harder or not as profitable, you pay attention to what you're doing and don't present them with easy or juicy targets. It's that fecking simple.
For some not simple enough.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 03:56:07 -
[25] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:Circo Maximo wrote:Where did you get the idea that you should be able to be invincible in highsec? CCP has never told you this. You should need to be organized to protect yourself in an MMO. There are single player games available if you don't want to play with others. I have nowhere in my statements said high sec should be invincible. Do you read what i'm saying bro? All i have said that the gankers should get harder and harder times against Concord the more they gank each day. What's bad about that? If you want ganking to be harder or not as profitable, you pay attention to what you're doing and don't present them with easy or juicy targets. It's that fecking simple. Still doesn't makes the idea of getting the Concord to be harder against the gankers the more they gank bad in any ways. There should be some kind of a trade off for doing that more and more.
Why? Why shouldn't players be able to punish others for their imprudence?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 07:03:30 -
[26] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: Who said anything about how much money i'm traveling with?
But that is the point. Ganking an empty freighter happens, but rarely, aside from events like Burn Jita.
NightmareX wrote:For all you know i can travel with ALOT of money.
Well, in the U.S. you can travel with any amount of money. Of course, if the police stop you they could take it via civil asset forfeiture. So, you arenGÇÖt even safe from them. Maybe CONCORD should start ganking the odd overstuffed freighter and call it civil asset forfeiture.
BTW, with civil asset forfeiture law enforcement must merely suspect wrong doing, not actually charge you with a crime.
NightmareX wrote:Not only that, but scouting for gankers in Destroyers is very hard. Because one second a gate can be clear and tells the Freighter to jump in. But because the freighter is so slow at entering warp, you can basicly sit 2 jumps out with some Destroyers and just head towards the freighter and gank it before it had entered warp. Not only that. Should every Freighter polits just stop doing what they are doing, just because they see a potential bumping Machariel at gates to?
Use local for the love of God. Set known ganking organizations red. Use webs. Tank your freighter. DonGÇÖt put too much value in it. There are plenty of idiots out there you just have to be smarter than them. Let the gankers eat them while you sail on through.
NightmareX wrote:Once a freighter is getting bumped by some MacharielGÇȘ.
Yes, at this point you have basically screwed up several times.
1. Too much stuff in your cargo hold. 2. No scout. 3. No webs. 4. You probably anti-tanked your freighter. 5. You are almost surely going to die.
You should have not done everything wrong in 1-4.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 07:08:19 -
[27] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: You still haven't explained why Concord shouldn't take into consideration on how much you have ganked each day?
They are the police and are supposed to have control over the crimes you do.
Yeah, Concord should punish you harder and harder within the Concord timer ONCE they take you for doing a new crime.
Yeah, Concord doesn't looks after that now, but that doesn't mean they can't do it in the future. Because it's normal that when you commit a crime, it should be harder and harder for you to avoid Concord within the Concord timer the more crimes you do.
If you do not agree with this, then please give reasonable reasons why this wouldn't work?
So you have two guys, both -10. One guy got that way by ganking. The other by killing people in LS.
You want to treat them the same, but based on your arguments you shouldnGÇÖt. One guy has ganked and ganked and ganked. The other engaged people in LS, a place where CONCORD does not patrol.
Jonah is pointing out your mechanics suggestion is flawed, dumb, stupid, and will not discriminate if based on sec status.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 07:14:10 -
[28] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Nobody is saying that the game shouldn't be improved, we're saying that your suggestion isn't an improvement in our opinion. And why isn't it an improvement to actually threat criminals as actual criminals? This is what history tells us about nerfs to ganking. Gankers get nerfed Gankers adapt. People still explode and whine on the forums about it. Someone else comes up with a great idea to make ganking more difficult. Ad infinitum. The grand circle of one more nerf. Now your turn to answer a question. I wrote:Why should the people who put effort into their gameplay be penalised for it, while at the same rewarding those who don't put any effort or thought in at all?
How is that anywhere near balanced?
Adding to this now you have groups like Miniluv and CODE. who are practically profession ganking organizations. They can gank even in 1.0 systems if the idiot has put enough value into his freighter.
We got here for a reason...that reason are the previous changes to ganking, CONCORD, etc.
Now you want to nerf it again. Are you sure. It hasn't worked out for you so far.
And yes, you can nerf it until it is dead, but killing content is not going to help the game. Go look at the trends in Eve Offline.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 07:17:13 -
[29] - Quote
Jakara Dakara wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Jakara Dakara wrote: OK 1) You should try searching the forum, this post has been made, ad nauseam, again and again and again. 2) Concord is designed to react to a crime not prevent, CCP has not mentioned wanting to change this. 3) Concord gets regularly made a fool out of in the lore, why can't we have fun with the police too? 4) Having alpha safety locks has been mentioned in other threads as well, they don't want to take emergent game play away from them 5) Everything you mentioned would still severely damage the ability for dudes to gank, even worse than it has been already. 6) You've mentioned you steal the loot from a gank and profit off of it (making it less worthwhile for the gankers I might add), why would you want to remove that emergent gameplay/profit source from yourself?
because its bad gameplay for a highsec system and I can make isk in any security status. I dont rely on ganks for income. so what about points 1 - 5?
Forget it. They guy can't think like that, IMO. He just simply can't. The concepts of emergence and spontaneous order are literally outside his area of knowledge. He isn't even aware of why we have gotten "here" where we have professional ganking groups like CODE. and Miniluv. He should be blaming CCP and their changes to the game that got us here. But he won't because as I said things like emergence are things he just not comprehend. At all.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5993
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Posted - 2017.02.26 08:17:35 -
[30] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:If you want to make the game better you'd be asking for buffs to ganking. Increases rewards for smart players. Penalises the dumb and lazy. And i mean for haulers and miners when i say that.
But no. Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow. Wants the game to change so he doesn't have to think. You must be on a troll fest or something. That or you are just really dumb... Not dumb enough to be ganked in a freighter. Yeah, just a 3+ bil hull filled with blueprints : https://zkillboard.com/kill/18320221/
That wasn't a gank.
And wow were you looking hard for that one. Is that what you've been doing since your last post. Trolling through Daichi's loss mails trying to find something....anything.
Truly pathetic.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
5998
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Posted - 2017.02.26 10:19:52 -
[31] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
Im in HIGH SEC - that means i should be SAFE to do it-
Nope.
HS means there are just more consequences for me shooting you. That's it. That for many players those consequences dissuade them from shooting you does not mean you are safe from all players.
Naye Nathaniel wrote: If i want to put so much effort for being safe - i would move my ass and go by low sec;
Maybe you should mover yourself to another game or realize how this game works. Your choice.
Naye Nathaniel wrote: Being safe means I already PUT MUCH EFFORT as i changed my route from 10j to 20j; And U decide to screw MY game - and of course there is no consq for you doing that;
Nope. Again, HS is where there are more consequences if I decide to shoot you. If I bring 29 friends and we shoot you...and your ship is blown up, and yet another friend comes along and scoops the loot and scoots...welcome to the sandbox.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 18:54:40 -
[32] - Quote
Raymond Limyuri wrote:Quote:CCPlease implement this or something similar so that repeat gank fleets can not freely stage and travel in highsec. If career criminals want to take advantage of major markets like jita and amarr, then they can use an alt or carrier service to get goods. No need for career criminals to even be allowed in highsec. That is what a security status is meant to control. Ganking is a fundamental part of this game, and nerfing it would make it go away. Burn Jita is happening and will happen again, the rationale behind it isn't "getting goods", or stealing loot. it is "fun". The success of burn jita is determined by "how many billions were destroyed", screw the loot. This game is a sandbox to the extent that kill mails are given a lot of value. Moreover, ganking isn't always as active as when burn Jita is happening, so only idiots would make themselves targets by AFK-mining and sitting on gates thinking that highsec is safe. Have fun. Die. Repeat. Get over it.
I don't think nerfing it would necessarily make it die, although it that is a possibility. But I largely agree with your point it is a fundamental part of the game because of the core aspect of the game, "If I accept the consequences of shooting you, I can shoot you...anywhere in game."
The OP and his few supporters want to ratchet up the consequences. That has been the path CCP has been on. CONCORD getting tougher. Fine not much happened. CONCORD got faster. CONCORD locked people in place as soon as they engaged in illegal aggression. Insurance was removed for suicide ganking. Along with it was the increase in war dec costs. And then the removal of the watchlist, another nerf to wardecs.* All the changes to CONCORD and ganking have lead to a rise in professional ganking groups like Miniluv and CODE. Trying to catch those guys is now work. It is work because they have perfected their profession. And now they mostly gank for profit, and there are plenty of fools to give them that profit.
As for war decs those have been reduced to camping trade hubs and roaming the trade lanes along with mass wardecs by big war deccing alliances. Now people complain quite regularly about that too.
My response to both those whining about suicide ganking and war decs. You idiots made your bed now lie in it. You whined and complained and CCP reacted "in your favor" or so you thought. Now you got the result. Did you expect the suicide gankers and war deccing alliances to NOT adapt? Well then you were stupid.
*Yes, yes, yes I know! Some BadGäó is going to come along and say, they removed the watchlist becuase..."Blah, blah, blah....". I know. But it was still a nerf to targeted war decs. I have always maintained that if you change mechanics to do X but also screw Y then that is likely a bad change.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 18:59:42 -
[33] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:NightmareX wrote:
Yes, why should you be able to easily stop a freighter or kill it when we others can't do that towards the gankers before it's to late?
But you can? Y'know, really quite easily? Hint: get a fast locking ship and camp a gate you know gankers will be coming through. Now, in a similar vein, why should a single pilot who takes absolutely no precautions whatsoever be immune to the actions of two dozen or more organised and specialised players who want to ruin his day? Nowhere else in eve is one unprepared player going to do anything but die against superior numbers, tactics and fits, so why should this not also be the case in highsec?
Or gank the bumping mach. Those ships tend not to have big tanks, they are fit for speed and agility vs. tank.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 19:28:32 -
[34] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:But that is the point. Ganking an empty freighter happens, but rarely, aside from events like Burn Jita. Like i have said, the ganking in it self are fine. What's not fine are the consequences the gankers gets after a gank. The consequences are WAAAAAAAY to little / small over what it really should be. It's that simple.
Actually I donGÇÖt think so. The thing is that gankers figured out a way for each pilot to lose very little individually and they find targets where the expected payoff is large. The GÇŁtoo littleGÇ„ is GÇŁtoo littleGÇ„ because some idiot decided to offer to GÇŁpay them too muchGÇ„ by overloading his freighter.
Why should the ganker get large consequences whereas the fool freighter pilot not face consequences for his incredibly stupid behavior?
That point you never answer.
See, there is no balance issue here because you have prudent players on one hand (suicide gankers) and an imprudent player on the other (the freighter pilot). That is not a balance issue, IMO.
See CCP looks at balance for in game items such as ships and their respective bonuses. Or modules and their in game effects. CCP did balance passes years ago on things like sensor damps, for example. At the time there were no stacking penalties. So CCP implemented stacking penalties and not just on sensor damps, but on most modules like it. CCP also rebalanced titans when people were fitting titans so they could shout frigates.
But CCP does not try and GÇŁfix stupidGÇ„ when it comes to players actions. And in fact it is really hard too. I bet if CCP implemented this rule:
If you put more than 1.5 billion ISK worth of cargo in your freighter you wonGÇÖt be allowed to undock.
The raging on the forums would be unlike anything we have seen before. Some people would be raging because they have figured out how to safely move an overloaded freighter, and others would be raging because they are upset that somebody is trying to protect them from their own stupidity.
So, why should freighter pilots be, at least in part, shielded from the consequences of their own foolish actions? I know you keep saying, you donGÇÖt have a problem with ganking, but you clearly want to nerf it, so you do have a problem with it. And indirectly youGÇÖll provide a buff to the imprudent and even downright stupid freighter pilots who are usually the victims of suicide ganking.
Oh, and here is another thing. These professional groups, they are good at adapting, especially Goons. Back in the day, they used to run Sec Status Safaris. TheyGÇÖd have a designated route where a fleet in stealth bombers would run through, shoot a high value rat, move on to the next system. TheyGÇÖd do this until peopleGÇÖs sec status was GÇŁrepairedGÇ„. Implement this change and Goons might reinstitute the Sec Status Safaris, thus mitigating or even eliminating the effect of this change. Goons might also look for GÇŁaffiliatesGÇ„ for Miniluv--i.e. people outside their coalition. One thing about Goons is they are very good at their organizational structure. And where would we be with this...the OP back here whining his pathetic ass off that Goons are ganking 24/7 just like they were before the change.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 19:43:10 -
[35] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: 1. I'm again not against getting ganked for traveling with to much stuffs in the cargohold. Read what i'm talking about. 2. One scout is not going to be enough for a Freighter pilot anyways as he will need to be scouting several systems in advance for the Freighter pilot to make sure it's ok. So that again, is just stupid. 3. Why should he need webs on an alt to be able to do his business? 4. You shouldn't have to tank your freighter as a normal practice. If you know you are going to low sec or any other areas that are SUPPOSED to be dangerous, then it might be something else. 5. And as you are so sure to die, then i don't see the problem with a system that punished the criminals harder and harder the more crimes they do because the Freighter pilots have such high chance of dying without having to use a billion alts and stuffs.
So again. Give EVE a system that punished the criminals harder and harder the more crimes they do, because that's freaking logic.
You quite clearly have an issue with ganking. You should stop claiming you do because you want to nerf it. One scout can make a world of difference. And read what I wrote, set active ganking organizations red. TheyGÇÖll show up in local. If you start seeing alot of them, dock up. If you know of individual macherial pilots, yes set them red, but yes they tend to sit in NPC corps. And if you do start to build a listGÇȘ.why not make it publicly available. As for webbers, why not use all the tools you can to get the job done quickly and safely? You are not entitled to play this game as if other players did not exist. If you anti-tank your freighter you should then lower how much you carry in terms of ISK value. Again, you are not playing this game as if other players did not also play it as well. You are almost surely going to die if you end up getting bumped--i.e. you screwed up several times.
YOU need to learn to adapt to the changing conditions of the game vs. coming here and stamping your foot demanding changes that are antithetical to the nature of the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 19:44:24 -
[36] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:
Newsflash. I know EVE is about getting shot. But does that mean you can just gank over and over forever in high sec without getting any harder circumstances / penalties the more you gank in places where you are supposed to be relatively good protected from getting ganked over and over?
First off, I'm not sure I agree you do understand the nature of the game...but lets set that aside.
Why should players who are foolish be protected from their foolishness?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 19:52:59 -
[37] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:'RELATIVELY good protected'
And there it is. Compared to low, null and WH it is there is plenty of deterrent to ganking. In fact, ganking hardly happens anymore. Not like it used to.
Youre wrong if you think its ruining the game. If it was, the more it was nerfed the more players we'd keep right? Instead the more its nerfed the less players we have. Ganking used to be easier and cheaper, and the game grew in subscriptions every year.
Players are quitting cause they are bored. Not because of meany gankers.
Okay, lets consider this....
Red Frog Freight hauls ALOT. They use freighters. Yet they lose very, very few freighters. If we look at their rate of failure for contracts it is very, very low.
In looking at their annual report for 2015 we find this little tidbit of information:
Quote:During 2015 Red Frog Freight failed 382 contracts, representing about 0.27% of all contracts. The percentage of failed contracts is up by 145% as compared to 2014 when the percent failed was 0.11%.
So much less than 1% of the contracts are failed, and this includes failures for all reasons. But letGÇÖs assume it is all due to ganking. This means that for every RFF freighter that is ganked, 370 run around doing their business just fineGÇȘ.so long as the pilot is prudent.
Why does suicide ganking need another nerf and why does being an idiot freighter pilot need a buff?
BTW, in looking at their annual report there is a load of depressing statistics in there, but I bet the OP and NightmareX won't be able to figure out what I'm talking about.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 19:55:25 -
[38] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:
Newsflash. I know EVE is about getting shot. But does that mean you can just gank over and over forever in high sec without getting any harder circumstances / penalties the more you gank in places where you are supposed to be relatively good protected from getting ganked over and over?
First off, I'm not sure I agree you do understand the nature of the game...but lets set that aside. Why should players who are foolish be protected from their foolishness? So flying around with a freighter is suddenly foolish just because they can't use a billion alts to scout several systems ahead of potential bumping Machariels that doesn't really have to be a bumping Machariel and to scout for some baddies that can travel from several jumps out and reach the targeted freighter before the freighter can warp out? How much work do you expect a freighter pilot to do to make sure he can fly around relatively safe? When you as a ganker can fly around in high sec suiciding others that easily, then the freighter pilots should be able to do their job as easily that way to.
No. I did not write that. I wrote that using a freighter foolishly should not be protected. Using a freighter prudently is not a problem. Thing is people often want to use it foolishly. Just it can hold 32.5 billion in nocxium means you should haul 32.5 billion in nocxium. At least not without possible repercussions.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 19:56:42 -
[39] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:'RELATIVELY good protected'
And there it is. Compared to low, null and WH it is there is plenty of deterrent to ganking. In fact, ganking hardly happens anymore. Not like it used to.
Youre wrong if you think its ruining the game. If it was, the more it was nerfed the more players we'd keep right? Instead the more its nerfed the less players we have. Ganking used to be easier and cheaper, and the game grew in subscriptions every year.
Players are quitting cause they are bored. Not because of meany gankers. Yeah i said relatively safe which means you are not 100% safe, but should still be pretty safe in high sec. And that means safe enough to not getting ganked over and over from the same type of crime while the criminals isn't getting punished any harder the more crimes they do. But you aren't really being treated like a criminal if you aren't getting any harder consequences / penalties if you still can just do the same crime over and over without getting it harder to do the crimes you do each days.
The RFF numbers indicate a prudent freighter pilot IS relatively safe. It suggests that your probability of getting ganked is less than or equal to 0.0027 or 0.27%. How much safer do you need it to be?
Edit: The chances of not getting ganked are 0.9973 or 99.73%. WITF more do you want?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:13:43 -
[40] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Danika Princip wrote:NightmareX wrote:
Yes, why should you be able to easily stop a freighter or kill it when we others can't do that towards the gankers before it's to late?
But you can? Y'know, really quite easily? Hint: get a fast locking ship and camp a gate you know gankers will be coming through. Now, in a similar vein, why should a single pilot who takes absolutely no precautions whatsoever be immune to the actions of two dozen or more organised and specialised players who want to ruin his day? Nowhere else in eve is one unprepared player going to do anything but die against superior numbers, tactics and fits, so why should this not also be the case in highsec? And here lies the problem of this entire post. Highsec has faction police who cant catch their criminal targets, making them a useless feature of the game. Make it so that these faction police catch their targets in X amount of time (where X depends on the players security status) and we have balanced out ganking mechanics vastly.
No, it forces the suicide gankers and all low sec status players into smaller faster ships...which typically do less DPS. So they either use lots of ships, or switch over to more expensive ships. Destroyers or stealth bombers. Some gank in battle cruisers such as the talos, but I bet you'll find those guys have a sec status that lets them do it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:14:34 -
[41] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
Right... If players are able to bypass the security status part of the game somehow, then it needs to be fixed.
They aren't bypassing it. It is there to let them move around HS, but in a limited fashion.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:15:20 -
[42] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Err...but facpo catch you if you're slow. They can also be tanked and killed iirc.
And players can shoot you too, and they can be much faster than the FacPo.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:21:08 -
[43] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
Right... If players are able to bypass the security status part of the game somehow, then it needs to be fixed.
They aren't bypassing it. It is there to let them move around HS, but in a limited fashion. -10.0 criminal dont even need to be in highsec in the first place. They have proven that they cant be trusted.
Sure they do. They need to buy stuff too. Or are you suggesting they must have alts? Most of the -10 fly through HS in fast moving ships or their pod--i.e. in this instance they are of little threat and can be shot by both FacPo and players.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:23:08 -
[44] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:-10.0 criminal dont even need to be in highsec in the first place Ahh now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. Are you suggesting that access to hisec should be based upon sec status?
Yup. Looking like it.
Why should a LS pirate who does not suicide gank be restricted from HS? If he is confining his violence to others to LS...what is the problem? He isn't going to be doing stuff in HS, he is just moving through it or taking care of business in HS (maybe buying stuff and setting up a courier contract).
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:28:23 -
[45] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:-10.0 criminal dont even need to be in highsec in the first place Ahh now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. Are you suggesting that access to hisec should be based upon sec status? Yup. Looking like it. Why should a LS pirate who does not suicide gank be restricted from HS? If he is confining his violence to others to LS...what is the problem? He isn't going to be doing stuff in HS, he is just moving through it or taking care of business in HS (maybe buying stuff and setting up a courier contract). Because he is still performing criminal activities. If you dont want the security status hit, you should really be flying in null. If you want to operate in lowsec, join faction warfare and dont be a pirate.
The hypocrisy is hilarious. A person decides to be a LS pirate, confines their activities to LS, but on occasion needs to move through HS and is no threat to people in HS, and is fact has to worry about not only the FacPO, but every player with a gun or drones on their ship....and they aren't allowed to be in HS.
Dude you crack me up.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 20:32:42 -
[46] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:-10.0 criminal dont even need to be in highsec in the first place Ahh now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. Are you suggesting that access to hisec should be based upon sec status? No, im saying that unless you are in a shuttle or pod to just travel through higsec as a -10.0 criminal, any other ship you should be expected to be blown up before you can commit any further criminal acts in highsec.
My example is a person not committing criminal acts in HS. So your suggestion is bad. If I want to fly a travel fit ceptor in HS while -10, why not. It isn't like I'll be stopping to shoot anything...I'm in a travel fit ceptor.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:17:37 -
[47] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:-10.0 criminal dont even need to be in highsec in the first place Ahh now we're getting down to the nitty gritty. Are you suggesting that access to hisec should be based upon sec status? No, im saying that unless you are in a shuttle or pod to just travel through higsec as a -10.0 criminal, any other ship you should be expected to be blown up before you can commit any further criminal acts in highsec. My example is a person not committing criminal acts in HS. So your suggestion is bad. If I want to fly a travel fit ceptor in HS while -10, why not. It isn't like I'll be stopping to shoot anything...I'm in a travel fit ceptor. Where it commit criminal acts does not matter. Its still criminal in lowsec, you just dont get wrecked by concord for it.
Back tracking noted....still a bad idea. If a player is not a threat to HS players I don't see why the game should impede his progress, let other players try and do that.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:20:16 -
[48] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Quote: Red Frog Freight hauls ALOT. They use freighters. Yet they lose very, very few freighters--CORRECTION: they fail very few contracts. If we look at their rate of failure for contracts it is very, very low.
This is wrong... I have a RL friend that works for Red Frog using multiple freighters and every single day he is telling me about a new one that goons toons down just outside of jita.
No I think you are lying. It is right there in their annual reports. So either you are lying or RFF is.
Edit: Look at what the OP has to do here to try and justify his point. When somebody points to actual data from a third party not even involved in the discussion. Data complied probably a year ago...he has to claim it is a lie. There is a word for this: dogmatist. When one is presented with data that contradicts your beliefs or hypothesis you should change your beliefs/hypothesis not dismiss the data. There is another name for data: facts.
The OP is a liar.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:25:06 -
[49] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:You vastly underestimate how many freighters pass through jita safely. You're talking about hundreds PER freighter ganked.
Thats what we've been trying to tell you all this time.
This guy is, frankly, an ignoramus. All he sees are the freighters that are ganked. He does not see the one's that pass through unmolested. So of course, he concludes that the number of freighters ganked is high? Based on what? Nothing. Literally nothing.
Suppose 100 freighters are ganked but that 10,000 pass through...the gank rate is 1/100 or 1%. Is that something to get bent out shape about? Probably not.
But the OP (nor I) can say for sure.
We can look at RFF and we see that traditionally they fail very few contracts. Some are failed due to suicide ganks. So, prudent players will likely be fine more than 99% of the time.
There is no solid evidence there is a problem, and some reason to believe there is no problem.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:26:39 -
[50] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Quote: Red Frog Freight hauls ALOT. They use freighters. Yet they lose very, very few freighters--CORRECTION: they fail very few contracts. If we look at their rate of failure for contracts it is very, very low.
This is wrong... I have a RL friend that works for Red Frog using multiple freighters and every single day he is telling me about a new one that goons toons down just outside of jita. No I think you are lying. It is right there in their annual reports. So either you are lying or RFF is. Edit: Look at what the OP has to do here to try and justify his point. When somebody points to actual data from a third party not even involved in the discussion. Data complied probably a year ago...he has to claim it is a lie. There is a word for this: dogmatist. When one is presented with data that contradicts your beliefs or hypothesis you should change your beliefs/hypothesis not dismiss the data. There is another name for data: facts. The OP is a liar. Just zkill it man... geez
Oh Great Ignorant One....
Zkill gives half the picture. The half where there were actual suicide ganks. It tells us nothing about how many freighters move around HS unmolested.
You are talking out of ignorance. You want to make a change, out of ignorance.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:32:57 -
[51] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
Ganking could be buffed.... please explain??? LUL The fact that you keep trying to point out that you are a miner a freighter pilot ensures that you are not. You lost a 3+bil domi in null. Thats not a freighter pilot and miner career path.
Six years ago. We all did dumb things six years ago. And why are you ignoring the fact that the 15 minutes thing is literally only happening this weekend, for the burn jita event?
First off that is an old kill, it actually predates zkill (I think). Back in time there was no distinction when a player lost a BPO or BPC (not even sure if there is one now). So I find it quite plausible that that kill is wildly overvalued. That you keep harping on this know it is likely false makes you a liar.
Second, Daichi was relatively new to the game back then. We all did stupid stuff when we were new. What makes you look even worse is that there is no evidence Daichi showed up on the forums and whined. And even if he did, which he most likely did not, he learned what the game is about and changed his beliefs and views of the game instead of obstinately insisting the game be changed to suit him.
In short, bringing this up makes you look just downright ridiculous.
So...keep doing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:38:59 -
[52] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Oh Great Ignorant One....
Zkill gives half the picture. The half where there were actual suicide ganks. It tells us nothing about how many freighters move around HS unmolested.
You are talking out of ignorance. You want to make a change, out of ignorance.
Again, its not about the targets... its about how gankers are able to operate in highsec due to certain mechanics in the game. Refer to the OP.
No, it would be about the rate of ganking dingaling.
If your unconditional probability of getting ganked is say 10% you might have something. But we don't know. We can look at RFF's numbers and draw some inferences....
1. Are RFF pilots generally prudent--i.e. do they use scouts, webs, tank when possible, and not carry too much? 2. We know RFF fails very few contracts...which is why people use them.
Based on 1 being true and given 2 we can conclude with some degree of confidence that the conditional probability of being ganked is very, very low. That is if you are prudent your probability of being ganked is less than 1%.
So all your bleating about Goons ganking all the things is simply not true.
Since you are basing your argument on these bleatings your argument does not have a base...no foundation.
Now you are starting to recognize it and shift over to "all criminals" because you realize your initial position was flawed. You are insistent on your beliefs and will move the goal posts to ensure you do not have to change your beliefs.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:46:04 -
[53] - Quote
To be clear, the OP started this thread with the view that suicide ganking was too easy. That it was, essentially, too frequent. It is obvious we have little data on how frequent it is, but it likely not nearly as rampant as the OP says it is.
We do have some information on how likely a prudent freighter pilot is going to be ganked. It is very low. Using RFF annual reports we see it is typically below 1%.
So even the current "permissive" access to HS that is allowed for -10 sec status players there is not an issue with rampant ganking...at least not if you are prudent.
Given this, I see absolutely no issue with suicide ganking. Erich Einstein has nothing to support his position. Nothing. Even pointing to zkillboard does not tell us what we need to know. Zkillboard only tells us the numerator in regards to the rate of ganking in New Eden. It tells us nothing about the denominator.
Now if I were at CCP I'd see if I can get data on both the numerator and denominator. In fact, it would be awesome if somebody like CCP Quandt could query the data and give us a time series (graphically) of freighter ganking in terms of a rate.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:50:19 -
[54] - Quote
I'll also add that Erich Einstein's idea is bad because it is having NPCs do what the players should be doing. The player should be managing their risk in an appropriate manner. In fact, that is a nice thing about EVE. It teaches on, rather quickly and often rather harshly about mismanaging your risk. This is not a game about having CCP hold people's hands via NPCs. The suggested idea, IMO, moves us in that direction where Erich Einstein intended it to or not.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:52:51 -
[55] - Quote
Why is it when somebody says, "Lets buff CONCORD!" and the response is, "No." Those asking for the buff then reply with (imagine a petulant and whiny voice), "Oh, well then, lets just remove CONCORD!"?
Nobody is saying remove CONCORD FFS.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:55:17 -
[56] - Quote
Lei YingLu wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
We can look at RFF and we see that traditionally they fail very few contracts. Some are failed due to suicide ganks. So, prudent players will likely be fine more than 99% of the time.
I believe that you can use Red Frog's data but you have to look at much more than that to get the whole picture. Go to their website. Plastered on the front page it reads Burn Jita is in effect. They are well aware that if they bring a freighter/jump freighter to Jita it's probably going to die to the player ran event. I like to call this situational awareness. Beyond that look at Red Frog's FAQ. They have standard operating procedures that they follow. More than likely these things are going to keep them from becoming a loot pinyata. CCP Phantom also provided us with guidance as far as conduct in Eve HERE* You consent to PvP when you click "undock". * You are not safe in 1.0 security space. CONCORD is there to punish, not to protect. Get used to the idea. You want to talk about the mechanics being different for those who are career criminals once they go negative to a certain point. That is already in effect. The faction police spawn and will kill your ship if you stay in one place for too long and/or if you are too slow to get into warp, you ship will be blown up.
Absolutely. I would argue that is part of being a prudent player. Be aware of these things. I am taking my JF NOWHERE near Jita this weekend. You guys would be on me like stink on **** (even though we were once blue...I'm not now so I'd be fair game...which I have no issue with).
Hell at past Burn events there'd be people along the routes saying "Turn back...they are kill all freighters" and the freighters would head right into the meat grinder, some even on autopilot.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 22:56:55 -
[57] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:I'll also add that Erich Einstein's idea is bad because it is having NPCs do what the players should be doing. The player should be managing their risk in an appropriate manner. In fact, that is a nice thing about EVE. It teaches on, rather quickly and often rather harshly about mismanaging your risk. This is not a game about having CCP hold people's hands via NPCs. The suggested idea, IMO, moves us in that direction where Erich Einstein intended it to or not. Other players should not be monitoring people's security status and controlling the baseline level of security that is highsec. That is the job of the NPC's. Players are only responsible for their own safety but that doesnt mean that NPC activity doesnt need balancing.
They don't have too. All they have to do is manage their own risk an they'll be fine. A criminal is much less able to inflict harm on you if you manage your risk appropriately.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:00:34 -
[58] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Oh Great Ignorant One....
Zkill gives half the picture. The half where there were actual suicide ganks. It tells us nothing about how many freighters move around HS unmolested.
You are talking out of ignorance. You want to make a change, out of ignorance.
Again, its not about the targets... its about how gankers are able to operate in highsec due to certain mechanics in the game. Refer to the OP. No, it would be about the rate of ganking dingaling. If your unconditional probability of getting ganked is say 10% you might have something. But we don't know. We can look at RFF's numbers and draw some inferences.... 1. Are RFF pilots generally prudent--i.e. do they use scouts, webs, tank when possible, and not carry too much? 2. We know RFF fails very few contracts...which is why people use them. Based on 1 being true and given 2 we can conclude with some degree of confidence that the conditional probability of being ganked is very, very low. That is if you are prudent your probability of being ganked is less than 1%. So all your bleating about Goons ganking all the things is simply not true. Since you are basing your argument on these bleatings your argument does not have a base...no foundation. Now you are starting to recognize it and shift over to "all criminals" because you realize your initial position was flawed. You are insistent on your beliefs and will move the goal posts to ensure you do not have to change your beliefs. So if I go to zkill, since you are unwilling, and provide you with all the links for every gank by the gank team out of jita V - moon 17 in the last month and you see just how much they are abusing the system... then you are going to agree with me right. If I remember right, Redfrog freighters are not part of a particular corp, they do this particularly because of war deccing. So there is no way to guage accurately how many freighters they lose. Given that, we would RedFrog report that they lose freighters on the daily.
Stop being an ass. I have gone to zkill and looked at freighter kills. In fact, in threads like this I'm one of the one's who does that kind of thing and posts numbers.
My point is if you are going to look at the rate of something that is a fraction. You do know what a fraction is right?
The data on zkillboard tells you what is in the numerator, but tells you nothing about the denominator.
You have only half of the information you need.
Edit: And RFF has in the past kept track of why contracts were failed. Last time they shared that data was in 2012. About 46% to suicide ganks.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:07:12 -
[59] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.
You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that.
If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:11:16 -
[60] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
The security status and faction police mechanic is broken. I dont need to weight targets and their habits, etc to see that. What you are saying has no bearing on my point.
You keep saying this, but you have nothing upon which to base this. You tried with suicide ganking of freighters, but clearly you have failed in that. If there is no problem, then it stands to reason it is not broken. Just read the OP.
It is no longer valid, I'm afraid.
We don't know how ubiquitous freighter ganking is. We do know that for prudent players it is very unlikely. Even looking at RFF we know that thousands of courier contracts are delivered with little or no problem....provided one is prudent.
This is not a problem with suicide ganking. There is not a problem with letting -10 players into HS. There is little to no evidence they are the scourge you are making them out to be.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:19:59 -
[61] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
Twitch vids and zkill are proof at how much isk they are able to steal from others without consequence or any real effort in HighSec. It diminishes all other aspects of isk making in the game. Im sure you also argued against gambling with isk as well but it eventually got fixed because it was not good for the game.
So now you are advocating for people who are mismanaging their risk? Do I read you correctly? You think it is wrong that when a player mismanages their risk it is bad for other players to take advantage of it?
So I take it you also do not like:
Scammers, Corp thieves, Log on traps, And killing people who blind jump their capitals to a cyno beacon.
Yes? After all all those things also entail people mismanaging their risk. We need to save people from themselves...since they are not capable of taking care of themselves, we'll do it for them. Yes?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6001
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:26:05 -
[62] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
Twitch vids and zkill are proof at how much isk they are able to steal from others without consequence or any real effort in HighSec. It diminishes all other aspects of isk making in the game. Im sure you also argued against gambling with isk as well but it eventually got fixed because it was not good for the game.
So now you are advocating for people who are mismanaging their risk? Do I read you correctly? You think it is wrong that when a player mismanages their risk it is bad for other players to take advantage of it? So I take it you also do not like: Scammers, Corp thieves, Log on traps, And killing people who blind jump their capitals to a cyno beacon. Yes? After all all those things also entail people mismanaging their risk. We need to save people from themselves...since they are not capable of taking care of themselves, we'll do it for them. Yes? Just stop talking please... i dont know if you are trying to build your forum likes or something but go do it elsewhere. Your a troll and that all there is to it.
Fortunately you are not ISD, and you put your idea out there for others to comment on...which includes me.
Perhaps you should consider the following:
Editing your post with something like: Needs to go back on the drawing board.
Then ask ISD to close the thread and there...I can no longer comment. But since I'd like to see the game survive, I'll comment on ideas I think are both good and bad.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6002
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:32:18 -
[63] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:NightmareX wrote:All i see here is butthurt gankers that doesn't want to get their easy life of ganking over and over in the infinite loop to be harder and being butthurt that someone have an idea on a system that actually punishes the criminals harder the more they do crimes every day, like the law enforcement always have handled criminals in the first place. And being butthurt over someone explaining you gankers that you don't understand the concept of how criminals are supposed to be treated.
I mean, you are a freaking CRIMINAL to begin with. You are not supposed to be able to continue the criminal activity that easy the more you do it. It should be harder to do the crimes the more you do it.
And this is EXACTLY what you can't even explain why it shouldn't be in the game. It doesn't affect ganking at all. It just affect the challenge of continuing doing it the more you do crimes every day. All you have as an lame excuse is that 'it's a game' and 'this is not how things works'.
News @ 11. Even though things isn't working like that now, what prevents it from being like that by changing the game for the better for everyone in the future?
Remember, a criminal is supposed to be treated as a criminal and not like it is now with the only insanely low 15 minute Concord timer. I feel that i need to quote myself here, because no one seems to be willing to counter argument what i'm saying here. I wonder why? Yes, please explain to me why criminals shouldn't be treated as criminals in EVE?
They are treated as criminals, just not as you'd like them to be treated. You can shoot them. The FacPo will chase them, and if they are not fast enough catch and kill them. IIRC gate guns won't defend them if you shoot them first in LS.
The issue is not that they are not treated as criminals, just that they are not treated like you'd like to see them treated.
Please tell us how treating them more harshly will help the game?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6003
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:36:59 -
[64] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:A ganker can only make that much money from ganking because the victim provides that much loot. If freighters did not carry as much, or bothered to protect themselves, gankers would make much less isk.
Do you understand that? The gankers pay is ENTIRELY dependant on the greed and stupidity of their victims. And you are ommitting that gankers have to share payouts.
And AGAIN with the lies. Without any real effort? perhaps for individual gankers. But the collective effort required for ganking freighters is massive. The logistics, the fitting of ships, the scanning, the camping etc etc So much effort in fact that very few groups can pull it off and make good isk. No its not... Kusion ganked freighters effortlessly all day long as a solo pilot before I started making it not worth it for him.
Your reply in no way refutes anything that Daichi wrote. Kusion's profits are entirely dependent on how much loot is in the freighter. Who put that stuff in the freighter? Kusion? No. The freighter pilot did. You should be at least as upset with the freighter pilot as Kusion.
But you just can't seem to get this point.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6003
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:38:50 -
[65] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:
I have no issues in killing and losing ships in glorious PVP. You on the other hand seen the have issues with non-concencual pvp, sandbox-mechanics and the whole "you aren't safe in highsec" -ideas that are the main pillars that Eve are built on.
WoW is that way -> You'll like it more.
Stop saying sandbox. It is not a sandbox. It is a brand that gets very frequent updates and changes all the time based on the best interest of the game. There is a reason that gambling got wrecked, roraquals got redesigned, and everything else in this game gets changed. That is not a sandbox, that is a game like another out there in the world. Whenever the good-old-boys club uses the term sandbox, its nothing more than an attempt to discourage changes that they benefit from.
CCP themselves call it a sandbox.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6003
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:41:49 -
[66] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
It would balance out the gankers reward vs risk. It would push more people into nullsec since being a criminal pirate in lowsec would not allow you into highsec unless you repaired your security status, It would limit the number of highsec only gank contracts so that they dont overrun the contract system.
That is not CCP's business. If I foolishly put 10 billion at risk...that is my problem, not CCP's problem. So you are just flat out wrong.
The ganker's reward is somebody else's risk. If you want to reduce the ganker's reward, reduce the other person's risk.
How about this: Nobody can undock with more than 1.2 billion ISK in cargo value. Put more than that in terms of cargo value into your hold and you simply cannot undock.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6003
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:43:11 -
[67] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:A ganker can only make that much money from ganking because the victim provides that much loot. If freighters did not carry as much, or bothered to protect themselves, gankers would make much less isk.
Do you understand that? The gankers pay is ENTIRELY dependant on the greed and stupidity of their victims. And you are ommitting that gankers have to share payouts.
And AGAIN with the lies. Without any real effort? perhaps for individual gankers. But the collective effort required for ganking freighters is massive. The logistics, the fitting of ships, the scanning, the camping etc etc So much effort in fact that very few groups can pull it off and make good isk. No its not... Kusion ganked freighters effortlessly all day long as a solo pilot before I started making it not worth it for him. Your reply in no way refutes anything that Daichi wrote. Kusion's profits are entirely dependent on how much loot is in the freighter. Who put that stuff in the freighter? Kusion? No. The freighter pilot did. You should be at least as upset with the freighter pilot as Kusion. But you just can't seem to get this point. We are talking about criminal status and highsec control in this thread and OP, not the targets... take that **** elsewhere.
You brought it up dude. Perhaps you shouldn't post that crap then.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:48:13 -
[68] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
It would balance out the gankers reward vs risk. It would push more people into nullsec since being a criminal pirate in lowsec would not allow you into highsec unless you repaired your security status, It would limit the number of highsec only gank contracts so that they dont overrun the contract system.
That is not CCP's business. If I foolishly put 10 billion at risk...that is my problem, not CCP's problem. So you are just flat out wrong. The ganker's reward is somebody else's risk. If you want to reduce the ganker's reward, reduce the other person's risk. How about this: Nobody can undock with more than 1.2 billion ISK in cargo value. Put more than that in terms of cargo value into your hold and you simply cannot undock. then its also no business if i want to gamble my isk away... but they put a stop to that didnt they.
There were other reasons for that, legal ones.
Cripes, but you are uninformed....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:49:57 -
[69] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:
I have no issues in killing and losing ships in glorious PVP. You on the other hand seen the have issues with non-concencual pvp, sandbox-mechanics and the whole "you aren't safe in highsec" -ideas that are the main pillars that Eve are built on.
WoW is that way -> You'll like it more.
Stop saying sandbox. It is not a sandbox. It is a brand that gets very frequent updates and changes all the time based on the best interest of the game. There is a reason that gambling got wrecked, roraquals got redesigned, and everything else in this game gets changed. That is not a sandbox, that is a game like another out there in the world. Whenever the good-old-boys club uses the term sandbox, its nothing more than an attempt to discourage changes that they benefit from. Eve is close enough to a true sandbox as possible while keeping the game healthy. under that logic, you could claim that about any game Can't think of a another game that puts so much freedom into the players hands. Scamming, ganking, spying, etc etc. Not to mention giving the players the tools to respond to those actions.
The economy....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:52:19 -
[70] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:NightmareX wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Well, since they are criminals, you could go and hunt them as the devs have made that possible? I mean, I am pretty sure that is the reason you can shoot criminals freely? How does that help to shoot the criminals when that already are to late as they in 99% of all cases have killed their target before i can do something about the criminal? This is why it should be harder for the actual criminals to continue doing it the more they do it as it's impossible to prevent a gank before it's to late for the target they are suiciding on anyways. If your security status falls low enough, you can be shot without you having any timers on. Hence I used the word "criminal" and not " a player with criminal timers" Also, you get the criminal timer WHEN you attack, not when the target dies. Have some friends around if you are hauling something expensive and tank the hauler. You won't die to the first shot and now there's plenty of targets to shoot at. Sorry, you are invulnerable as long as your fleet keeps warping around.
No kidding, but what can you do while in warp? Can you target? Can you shoot anything? What harm can you impose on other players?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:53:45 -
[71] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:NightmareX wrote: But how does removing a criminal for 15 minutes help in this case AT ALL when they are back doing the same thing over and over and over every 15 mins?
It's normal bu human nature that the police will whoop your ass harder the more crimes you do. So why shouldn't it be rthe same in EVE?
How is it ruining peoples game? No one cares about your real life comparisons. At best they should be taken with a grain of salt. If CONCORD are to behave like real police than they should die when we shoot them and not be omnipotent. They should have a limited amount of ships and take minutes rather than seconds to respond. And travel through gates rather than magically spawn. You can refer to this post when i ignore future 'but real life!' BS posts from you. Oh look, no one cares about real life things you say. No, YOU don't cares about it because it makes your ganking life harder. Ofc you don't want it to be harder and will ofc be against it. No suprise there. Criminals independent of what it is or where it is, should have it more harder the more crimes they do. It's logic.
Daichi is not a ganker. Nor am I really. I did it as part of Burn Jita events, but outside of that...not really.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:55:29 -
[72] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:
I have no issues in killing and losing ships in glorious PVP. You on the other hand seen the have issues with non-concencual pvp, sandbox-mechanics and the whole "you aren't safe in highsec" -ideas that are the main pillars that Eve are built on.
WoW is that way -> You'll like it more.
Stop saying sandbox. It is not a sandbox. It is a brand that gets very frequent updates and changes all the time based on the best interest of the game. There is a reason that gambling got wrecked, roraquals got redesigned, and everything else in this game gets changed. That is not a sandbox, that is a game like another out there in the world. Whenever the good-old-boys club uses the term sandbox, its nothing more than an attempt to discourage changes that they benefit from. CCP themselves call it a sandbox. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hmqyejCYU yeah well they are dumb then... Doesn't make it a sandbox.
Is it an open class less system? Does it show examples of emergent game play? Is there spontaneous order?
Yes. Yes. And yes.
Yup, a sandbox.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.26 23:58:35 -
[73] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Daichi is not a ganker. Nor am I really. I did it as part of Burn Jita events, but outside of that...not really. I'm pretty sure you all here have alt's who does that day in and out and are using the excuse that you don't do it with one character. I'm not flat out stupid if you think i'am that.
Nope my alts are all pretty combat incapable as they are for making ISK.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:08:45 -
[74] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:yeah well they are dumb then... Doesn't make it a sandbox. Is it an open class less system? Does it show examples of emergent game play? Is there spontaneous order? Yes. Yes. And yes. Yup, a sandbox. nope, alphas cant fly ships that others can. Not class-less. There is also null, low, and high secs, which are class based in nature and define what a pilot can and can not do. Like no cyno in high sec, no cap in high sec etc. And the biggest thing is that these rules are constantly changing according to the best interest of an evolving game.
Alphas are a free trial, so not really valid objection. And again they can do whatever their skills enable, just like with an Omega.
HS, LS, and NS provide different levels of relative safety and also different rules of engagement.
So there are very few limitations, it is as sandboxy as one can get. And there is alot of unique and unintended game play.
Yup, sandbox.
In fact, your posts indicate you don't quite understand what a sandbox is.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:09:32 -
[75] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Daichi is not a ganker. Nor am I really. I did it as part of Burn Jita events, but outside of that...not really. I'm pretty sure you all here have alt's who does that day in and out and are using the excuse that you don't do it with one character. I'm not flat out stupid if you think i'am that. Nope my alts are all pretty combat incapable as they are for making ISK. I would like to see some proofs on that claim. Not only that, but you don't have to be much of a PVP character to fit out a Destroyer and gank something. That's something everyone can do.
Tell you what why don't you post your API for all your alts and accounts first.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:10:26 -
[76] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:
EDIT: And if you are not a ganker, then why are you so much against treating criminals like actual criminals then?
He has an interest in what is good for the overall game, not his own personal agenda.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:11:16 -
[77] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:I'm pretty sure you all here have alt's who does that day in and out and are using the excuse that you don't do it with one character. I'm not flat out stupid if you think i'am that. You'd be wrong. 1 account, 3 characters. This one, my main, jack of all trades. No kills My exploration and anom running alt. 2 wardec kills A character with the skills he was born with and a habit of making fun of people in Amarr local. No kills. Like i said over, you don't have to be much focused into PVP skills to be able to fly a lil Destroyer to be able to gank with it. That's something most players can do in no time. EDIT: And if you are not a ganker, then why are you so much against treating criminals like actual criminals then? Because a lot of my gameplay involves tilting the odds in my favour against them. If you penalise them, you penalise me. If you make it more difficult for them to operate, the value of what I do in order to not be a victim is reduced. if order for you not to be a victim.... Preventing them from over-running highsec by making them more accountable to their criminal actions doesnt not make it harder on you as a victim. That was just dumb.
Yup, you don't have a clue about emergence....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6004
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:12:34 -
[78] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tell you what why don't you post your API for all your alts and accounts first. I asked you first.
Daichi is right...you really are childlike. Fine don't believe me. I don't care. Your argument is based on a fallacy anyways. If that is the best you got...you got nothing.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:17:06 -
[79] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:I'm pretty sure you all here have alt's who does that day in and out and are using the excuse that you don't do it with one character. I'm not flat out stupid if you think i'am that. You'd be wrong. 1 account, 3 characters. This one, my main, jack of all trades. No kills My exploration and anom running alt. 2 wardec kills A character with the skills he was born with and a habit of making fun of people in Amarr local. No kills. Like i said over, you don't have to be much focused into PVP skills to be able to fly a lil Destroyer to be able to gank with it. That's something most players can do in no time. EDIT: And if you are not a ganker, then why are you so much against treating criminals like actual criminals then? Because a lot of my gameplay involves tilting the odds in my favour against them. If you penalise them, you penalise me. If you make it more difficult for them to operate, the value of what I do in order to not be a victim is reduced. if order for you not to be a victim.... Preventing them from over-running highsec by making them more accountable to their criminal actions doesnt not make it harder on you as a victim. That was just dumb.
Okay, let me help you here, although it probably wonGÇÖt make much effort...but maybe it will make sense down the road or to someone else.
What Jonah is saying is that making it difficult for people to just dump tons of stuff into a freighter and haul it around it creates opportunities for Jonah. Jonah can exploit this by being prudent. While his competition is getting his freighter ganked and half his stuff scooped, Jonah can either buy that stuff from the gankers or he can step in and fill the GÇŁeconomic voidGÇ„ that his competition has created by having half is stuff go GÇŁpoofGÇ„ in a ball of fire.
This is an example of emergence. Something coming about without somebody intending it to come about. As Adam Ferguson, the Scottish Enlightenment Philosopher, put it, GÇŁOf human action, but not of human design.GÇ„ The gankers were not intending to create this opportunity for Jonah, but they did.
Take away or reduce the ganking and you reduce JonahGÇÖs opportunities too.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:19:37 -
[80] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.
I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced.
Agreed. Best argument so far is, "I don't like it, so stop it."
Which is of course, no argument at all, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:20:25 -
[81] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.
I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced. How is the fact that criminal behavior is capped at faction police chasing you not proof. Once you get to this point, you can do whatever you want as a criminal without ever really being killed until you want to be killed in highsec.
No you can't.
Go get a -10 sec status and try flying a battle ship or a freighter around HS.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:27:25 -
[82] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Tell you what why don't you post your API for all your alts and accounts first. I asked you first. Daichi is right...you really are childlike. Fine don't believe me. I don't care. Your argument is based on a fallacy anyways. If that is the best you got...you got nothing. So you don't want to prove what i asked from you. Ok. Don't expect anyone to take you seriously then.
It doen't matter, you'll just claim I have a fourth or fifth account....short of giving you access to my credit card account, and even then you'll likely say I have yet another account with yet another credit card.
Nope. So knock of this childish bullshit, it is just making you look like an idiot.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:28:14 -
[83] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, let me help you here, although it probably wonGÇÖt make much effort...but maybe it will make sense down the road or to someone else.
What Jonah is saying is that making it difficult for people to just dump tons of stuff into a freighter and haul it around it creates opportunities for Jonah. Jonah can exploit this by being prudent. While his competition is getting his freighter ganked and half his stuff scooped, Jonah can either buy that stuff from the gankers or he can step in and fill the GÇŁeconomic voidGÇ„ that his competition has created by having half is stuff go GÇŁpoofGÇ„ in a ball of fire.
This is an example of emergence. Something coming about without somebody intending it to come about. As Adam Ferguson, the Scottish Enlightenment Philosopher, put it, GÇŁOf human action, but not of human design.GÇ„ The gankers were not intending to create this opportunity for Jonah, but they did.
Take away or reduce the ganking and you reduce JonahGÇÖs opportunities too.
Except this is wrong, because people will still gank under the OP proposed changes. Gankers just have to keep thier security status in check to be effective highsec gankers.
I didn't write they would stop ganking, I wrote 'reduce'.
Do you need a link to a dictionary website?
If you reduce the ganking you reduce Jonah's opportunities.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:30:53 -
[84] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
Its not worth it to boat around a svipul fleet that matches the size of goons ganks squad just to protect your lonely freighter who is trying to make 10mil isk per contract.
Good thing you don't need too.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:32:52 -
[85] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: Well, you haven't explained to me why criminals in EVE shouldn't be treated like criminals though. So if you can't answer that simple question, then don't expect anyone else to answer your questions.
Maybe you should do a google search of what a criminal is and how they are treated by the law enforcement before you claim to know how a criminal is supposed to be?
If you have a 0 or positive sec status can anyone shoot you without a CONCORD response? No.
Can you shoot a -10 without a CONCORD response? Yes.
You are factually wrong.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:34:25 -
[86] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:It doen't matter, you'll just claim I have a fourth or fifth account....short of giving you access to my credit card account, and even then you'll likely say I have yet another account with yet another credit card.
Nope. So knock of this childish bullshit, it is just making you look like an idiot. As you don't know the definition of what a criminal is and how they are supposed to be treated and because the way you are against a system like this that is logic by human nature to treat criminals, then i do believe you infact are a massive ganker with an alt that doesn't want to have a harder time for doing the crimes over and over.
I am quite well aware of what it means to have a -9 sec status as I had that level a sec status until recently.
I had to fly around in travel ceptors, shuttles and my pod.
And if I lingered anyone could shoot me.
You are the one factually wrong here.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:35:20 -
[87] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.
I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced. How is the fact that criminal behavior is capped at faction police chasing you not proof. Once you get to this point, you can do whatever you want as a criminal without ever really being killed until you want to be killed in highsec. No you can't. Go get a -10 sec status and try flying a battle ship or a freighter around HS. Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.
They are only a threat when in a group. Which is also a restriction.
You keep saying this like it is some sort of rampant problem. It isn't a problem.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:36:56 -
[88] - Quote
Lei YingLu wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:If a mouse is given a cookie, he is bound to want some milk. If he is given the milk, what will he want next?
Quoted from a children's book. The problem being that yes say some or everything you want at the point in time CCP implements. Even after that people will be still crying for nerfs to ganking until ganking is no longer able to be performed in HS. Only then will people stop crying about ganking. Sorry, I agree with ganking... but yet im the OP owner... weird. I wasnt talking about you more as the game as a whole. If CCP was going to grant your wish of how ganking mechanics should be, they'd have to listen to the next guy right? Then that guy is going to want even more stringent controls on ganking until it is no longer a thing. There is always someone who's not going to like something and want the game to be changed to suit their needs/wishes. I respect the fact that you didnt request an outright ban on ganking. As far as the Alpha clones not being able to do so I dont agree. I think that they should be able to enjoy every different style of play in the game. Now do I think that an Alpha should be able to sit on the Jita undock with a tornado? No.
Wait, wait....are you talking about incentives...perverse incentives?!?! And rent seeking?
In my EVE? No wai!
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:38:33 -
[89] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.
They can barely get through with a destroyer...but why is that so bad?
And then the only way to gank is to be in a group. Kusion uses alts, but to PLEX that many accounts, my God it sounds like a damn job.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:39:27 -
[90] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Okay, let me help you here, although it probably wonGÇÖt make much effort...but maybe it will make sense down the road or to someone else.
What Jonah is saying is that making it difficult for people to just dump tons of stuff into a freighter and haul it around it creates opportunities for Jonah. Jonah can exploit this by being prudent. While his competition is getting his freighter ganked and half his stuff scooped, Jonah can either buy that stuff from the gankers or he can step in and fill the GÇŁeconomic voidGÇ„ that his competition has created by having half is stuff go GÇŁpoofGÇ„ in a ball of fire.
This is an example of emergence. Something coming about without somebody intending it to come about. As Adam Ferguson, the Scottish Enlightenment Philosopher, put it, GÇŁOf human action, but not of human design.GÇ„ The gankers were not intending to create this opportunity for Jonah, but they did.
Take away or reduce the ganking and you reduce JonahGÇÖs opportunities too.
Except this is wrong, because people will still gank under the OP proposed changes. Gankers just have to keep thier security status in check to be effective highsec gankers. I didn't write they would stop ganking, I wrote 'reduce'. Do you need a link to a dictionary website? If you reduce the ganking you reduce Jonah's opportunities. Yeah maybe if Jonah is ignorant to history and his surroundings. Not everyone is a mindless sheep.
WatGäó? That does not even make sense given what I wrote.
Man talk about pearls before swine.....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6005
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:54:14 -
[91] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
Its not worth it to boat around a svipul fleet that matches the size of goons ganks squad just to protect your lonely freighter who is trying to make 10mil isk per contract.
Good thing you don't need too. Yeah, just pay for a scout account, and a webbing account, and you are all set. Oh and preferably three monitors, maybe another freighter account incase you have to pickup your ganked loot. Obviously there is risk as a freighter but gankers treat highsec like the wild west because faction pilots are pussies and the sercuity status system is a joke.
Or get a buddy in a rapier....
And right now, there are people out actively hunting Goon fleets.
Wow...more emergence from the sandbox...
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:57:39 -
[92] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Yeah maybe if Jonah is ignorant to history and his surroundings. That's an oxymoron. That I'm very aware of my surroundings is why I succeed where others fail, normally while transiting Uedama. You'll have to qualify what you mean by history because overall your statement makes no sense. Quote:Not everyone is a mindless sheep. I'm a mindless sheep because I actually think about how I play? Oh the irony.
Erich Einstein,
You have fallen for one of the classic blunders, the first of which "Never get involved in a land war in Asia", the second is "Never go up against a Sicilian when death is on the line." And the third, slightly less well known is "Never go up against Jonah Gravenstein who has an endless array of animated gifs to defeat you!"
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 00:58:59 -
[93] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:Okay, I'll bite. Criminals in real life based off of the crime they commit are given a punishment of jail time based off of laws put in place. Every crime has a set standard punishment as far as minimum and maximum. This is very much the same in Eve. Eve has put down standard consequences based off of different crimes committed. Because the game doesn't treat podding someone like 1st degree murder is treated in real life doesn't mean that there are not consequences. Ever heard of three strikes and you are out. This applies to repeat offenders. RL is not as generous as EVE. You can adjust the hit you take for podding in lowsec along with the OP, I have no problem with that. But technically, you shouldnt be podding in lowsec if you dont want to hurt your security status.
Maybe because it is a game and meant to be fun. Well if you have the right attitude.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:00:10 -
[94] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:@Nightmare Making ganking more difficult and more punishable makes ganking less frequent, which is bad. It doesn't. You all said the same thing last time ganking was nerfed where Concord doesn't pay out insurance to gankers anylonger. But what did happen? Yes, they did keep going as nothing had happened. Same will be here. All that will be different is that you have to be more clever and more smart to be able to keep doing the ganking after your first ganking and so on as the consequences will be harder the more you gank.
Got any numbers to support that. I don't think I said it wouldn't reduce ganking. I pointed out it gave rise to professional ganking and yet here we are again with BadsGäó asking for "one more nerf and it will be balanced."
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:01:18 -
[95] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:This thread is nothing more than a thinly-veiled "nerf ganking" thread.
Well, and lock criminals out of HS.
Basically turn HS into a carebear wasteland of boring and mind numbing. Sure to get the numbers logging in up.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:02:06 -
[96] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:Okay, I'll bite. Criminals in real life based off of the crime they commit are given a punishment of jail time based off of laws put in place. Every crime has a set standard punishment as far as minimum and maximum. This is very much the same in Eve. Eve has put down standard consequences based off of different crimes committed. Because the game doesn't treat podding someone like 1st degree murder is treated in real life doesn't mean that there are not consequences. Ever heard of three strikes and you are out. This applies to repeat offenders. RL is not as generous as EVE. You can adjust the hit you take for podding in lowsec along with the OP, I have no problem with that. But technically, you shouldnt be podding in lowsec if you dont want to hurt your security status. Maybe because it is a game and meant to be fun. Well if you have the right attitude. So the game can only be fun for the gankers? Do you think it's fun for the freighter pilots who basicly can die every 15 minutes to some ganking because there is no system in EVE that gives the gankers more penalty the more they gank?
Like I said if you have the right attitude. Obviously you seem to be deficient in that category.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:05:47 -
[97] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Like I said if you have the right attitude. Obviously you seem to be deficient in that category. You didn't answer my question.
The answer is, "No." Everyone can have fun.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6006
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:06:46 -
[98] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Wander Prian wrote:This thread is nothing more than a thinly-veiled "nerf ganking" thread. Well, and lock criminals out of HS. Basically turn HS into a carebear wasteland of boring and mind numbing. Sure to get the numbers logging in up. Basically lock everyone that is or could be a threat out of "their space" so they can do whatever idiotic thing comes to mind because, hey it's highsec, it should be SAFE
My God...they want to turn HS into a U.S. college campus run by a bunch of SJW...could be fun once they all turn on each other....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:08:59 -
[99] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:No one is saying anyone should be locked out of high sec. We are only saying the criminals should get penalized harder the more crimes they do in high sec.
Is that so hard to understand?
Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.
Quote:This second phase of aggression would consist of stations and jump gates instantly webbing and warp-disrupting while CONCORD moves in. This prevents serial criminals from freely moving through highsec and also prevent gank fleets from staging in highsec systems unless they control their security status correctly.
That would effectively lock them out.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:09:56 -
[100] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Like I said if you have the right attitude. Obviously you seem to be deficient in that category. You didn't answer my question. The answer is, "No." Everyone can have fun. Again, do you think the freigher pilots is having fun knowing they can get ganked over and over all day long every 15 minutes because the criminals doesn't get harsher consequences / penalties the more crimes / ganking they do?
I think a player can have fun trying to avoid that fate, I know I do.
Like I said, it depends on your attitude.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:13:17 -
[101] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:@Nightmare Making ganking more difficult and more punishable makes ganking less frequent, which is bad. It doesn't. You all said the same thing last time ganking was nerfed where Concord doesn't pay out insurance to gankers anylonger. But what did happen? Yes, they did keep going as nothing had happened. Same will be here. All that will be different is that you have to be more clever and more smart to be able to keep doing the ganking after your first ganking and so on as the consequences will be harder the more you gank. Got any numbers to support that. I don't think I said it wouldn't reduce ganking. I pointed out it gave rise to professional ganking and yet here we are again with BadsGäó asking for "one more nerf and it will be balanced." Yeah, balance it, not take the fun out of it. They have shown that you can over-eat all day long in highsec and no one in your corp ever has to pay for a sub again. Let the chump freighter pilots pay for it. Even at only hauling a bil max in a freighter, there is plenty of profit to be made when you do it after each 15min timer.
You are not talking about something that can be balanced. You can't fix stupid. If a player does something stupid there is a good chance they'll suffer the consequences. It has happened to all of us.
And I have a freighter/JF alt, so it is not like I'm not out there taking these risks too, I just minimize/manage them.
And would stop bringing up the loot drops/ISK side? You get so prissy and whiny whenever somebody points out it is the result of imprudent players and something CCP should and probably cannot do anything about.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:14:31 -
[102] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:No one is saying anyone should be locked out of high sec. We are only saying the criminals should get penalized harder the more crimes they do in high sec.
Is that so hard to understand? Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP. Quote:This second phase of aggression would consist of stations and jump gates instantly webbing and warp-disrupting while CONCORD moves in. This prevents serial criminals from freely moving through highsec and also prevent gank fleets from staging in highsec systems unless they control their security status correctly. That would effectively lock them out. no it would not. It would require them to lower their security status between ganks so that they stayed within the given systems phase one limit. This means spending some of the gank isk on repair tags and mabye even some mission running / rat killing. Obviously tags would be the easiest way. The economic tag availability would control the gank abilities and keep it honest.
Then they aren't criminals then are they. So you would effectively lock out criminals...until they are no long criminals.
Jesus, you are amazingly dishonest.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:17:29 -
[103] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:Ganking doesnt happen anywhere near on the scale it used to.
Ganking miners used to be something everyone did, it used to be profitable. Now not so much. Freighter ganking used to be done by quite a few groups, but now there are only two of any significance. You use to be able to perform two ganks on two different grids with one ship by being aligned before concord showed up.
Maybe one nerf doesnt have a significant effect on ganking, but its quite evident to me that the multitude of nerfs ganking has suffered has had an affect.
-EHP buffs to both miners and freighters -faster responses from concord -Nerfs to ganking tactics like hyperdunking and warping away from concord -Insurance removed -Suspect timers as oppose to old aggression rules -Kill rights becoming public
It has most certainly taken its toll, and we've lost players for it. actually its grown quite alot. Just a few months ago it was mainly kusion wrecking in uedema. (Im not talking miner ganks) Now Goons have seriously scaled up in Jita V - moon 17 station and pull in double and occasionally triple digit billions daily.
Nope. Miniluv has been around for quite awhile. Years in fact. And the rule of thumb for Goons appears to be: 6 billion or more--gank it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:20:04 -
[104] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
Sure, for the average pilot it sounds like enough, but for a career ganker, those things mean nothing to them. None of that stuff bothers their agenda one bit.
It was requests like yours that gave us career gankers.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:27:11 -
[105] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
no... you are ignorant arent your. They would still be criminal, just not phase two criminals that are shot on sight because they dont care to manage their security status.
Whatever, semantic bullshit aside, you want to lock certain players out of areas of the game. That is decidedly antithetical to the nature of the game.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:27:57 -
[106] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:NightmareX wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:There is more penalty, the lower my sec status goes, the less area's that I can go with out being hunted by Faction Police and eventually being able to be freely attacked anywhere in the game by everyone. This is all in addition to the kill rights that people receive and have every opportunity for a period of 30 days to hunt my ass down and kill me. The more people I kill the more of those I have as well. My point is and was in the quote portion earlier is that there are set consequences just like there is in real life that you keep trying to compare this to. Ehh ok? You can still fly around in high sec in a Destroyer with a -10 sec status. All you have to make sure is that no one tackles you before you enters warp. But that's relatively easy to avoid. The fact is that if you are categotized as an outlaw (-5 or lower), you shouldn't be able to be sitting in a ship (except for a Shuttle) while being in high sec. Yes, you have to use an alt or other friends to be able to get your newly bought ships out of Jita and high sec in the same way as freighter pilots have to use a bunch of alt or friends all the time according to you to be able to do their business. So don't you think it would be fair that way towards the gankers to that they will need alts or others to be able to keep doing their crimes with new ships and so on? Again, there are consequences. But it is not absolute. You get a DUI you lose the ability to drive a car, not to ride a bike. which is equivalent to an instant warping pod or shuttle, not a gank ship.
Which means you want to reduce the amount of ganking.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:28:59 -
[107] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If the freighter pilot is actually playing the game being hunted can be as much fun as being the hunter.
Denying gankers the opportunity for fun at your expense by virtue of the choices you make is fun.
Yeah, spot me like 10 bil then so that I can enjoy some content. Go find your own content, I'm certainly not paying for it. then why should freighter pilots be required to take all the risk knowing that gankers are not controlled in highsec. If you require gankers to repair their security status, they are only going to pick the highest of value targets. This eliminates the idiot freighter pilots and makes it a little more reasonable for the responsible freighter pilots.
They are taking the risk...because they are taking the risk. If they stopped putting 8 billion or 3 billion in their cargo holds they'd reduce the risk.
FFS. You keep saying you know this, then you post like a dolt with the above.
And again, you want to reduce the rate of ganking. As we have been saying all along.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:33:06 -
[108] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
no... you are ignorant arent your. They would still be criminal, just not phase two criminals that are shot on sight because they dont care to manage their security status.
Whatever, semantic bullshit aside, you want to lock certain players out of areas of the game. That is decidedly antithetical to the nature of the game. I give up on you. Im just going to refer your to the OP.
I did, and you want "phase 2" sec status players scrammed and webbed by gates while the FacPo move in.
Also, being webbed and scrammed, presumably even in a pod, because IIRC, your OP says nothing about pods or even shuttles being exempt. If they are scrammed and webbed other players can shoot them too.
They are effectively locked out. Once they jump into HS space they sit there on the gate waiting to die.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6007
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:34:24 -
[109] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
try for one second to get off your high horse and discuss the security system any why -10.0 criminal should be allowed in a 1.0 security system with anything more than a pod or shuttle. The OP says lower your criminal status or no bringing in any ships that doesnt warp instantly (ie gank ships).
Dude, can you grow up? No really? Become an adult as opposed to a man-child.
You keep bringing up risk vs. reward. Then you get all whiny and petulant when others respond. If you don't like the response...don't bring it up.
Brat.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:37:00 -
[110] - Quote
Lei YingLu wrote:
Yes, but a tornado is also a gank ship. But one of the things I personally like about Eve is the people evolve to what the game makers give them. Being a ganker (95% solo) I like AG. It makes things alot more interesting and fun. One of my favorite things to do is to initiate the gank knowing AG is there just to see if they can stop me. I like the fact that you can use destroyers still with a -10 because that gives the ganker a little bit of room in a world where everyone can stop you and all it would take is one person, yet what do most people do? Stand by and watch.
Not empty quoting.
This basically gives other the opportunity for content. But most HS players are too self-centered to even realize it. Most freighter pilots are so insular they wouldn't know someone was trying to help even if they have been bumped for an hour.
Erich has chosen the least appreciative players to champion.
Erich...they pretty much don't like you at all. Because they don't like most other players.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:39:40 -
[111] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:All that is needed are more clever and smarter pilots that needs to work a bit harder to be able to keep ganking. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. All that is needed for gankers to have to work harder is for freighter pilots to stop being morons and start to fly like they're clever and smart people.
Again not empty quoting.
Why is it outrageous to expect the freighter pilots to actually manage their risk?
Nope instead, we'll change the mechanics. Stomp on non-gankers with negative sec status...all in the name of helping out players who won't even thank you for it. Chances are they'll just load up all that more stuff into their freighters and when a 30 billion freighter is ganked, the OP will be back here complaining that Goons are bad.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:42:18 -
[112] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
Maybe its because freighters are so expensive, contracts collaterals are so high, that is the only way to make anything decent. Which for the risk being taken its all **** income if you ask me.
Seems like Red Frog does all right though.
Manage your risk. That is a major component of this game. It is a competitive game. If you do not manage your risk well others will take advantage of it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:43:18 -
[113] - Quote
Lei YingLu wrote:@OP So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit?
You should pretty much always triple bulkhead fit your freighter if it is empty, IMO.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:44:15 -
[114] - Quote
Dom Arkaral wrote:27 pages XD tl;dr of the past 20 or so?
The OP wants less ganking. Wants people will low sec status (see the OP for details) essentially locked out of HS, and doesn't have a clue about risk vs. reward.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:45:18 -
[115] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Dom Arkaral wrote:27 pages XD tl;dr of the past 20 or so? one more nerf.
An even better summary.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:49:51 -
[116] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
Sure, for the average pilot it sounds like enough, but for a career ganker, those things mean nothing to them. None of that stuff bothers their agenda one bit.
It was requests like yours that gave us career gankers. No its the massive cost of ships and battles in low and null sec that gave us gankers. People would rather steal isk for plex and ships than pay for it. Its just that the stealing is out of hand because ganking is to easy / uncontrolled and freighter pilots have to take on massive risk to make a minimal profit.
No, you are wrong and don't know the games history.
It was possible to gank in t1 fit battle ships because the suicide ganker would get insurance from CONCORD killing his ship. However, ganking was far more desultory. It happened, but wasn't nearly as organized/professional as it is now. As there were more and more nerfs suicide ganking of freighters became more and more organized and techniques refined to where it is now.
Wars in NS have nothing to do with it. NS alliances would bring in a crap ton of ISK with moon mining, rental empires, and taxes from things like POCOs and ratting. Plus alliances like Goons really know how to work the markets.
Miniluv is a profit center, but that is not what Goons need. If CCP eliminated ganking tomorrow Goons would still be filthy stinking rich.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6008
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Posted - 2017.02.27 01:53:48 -
[117] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: How does my idea of the said criminal system i have been talking about prevents the freighters from being ganked any lesser or make it a lesser risk of getting ganked?
Really you need me to spell it out for you?
Okay.
Lots of gankers have -10 status. They'd have to, at a minimum stop ganking and go to NS to repair their status or use tags, which would be quite an ISK burden. So that would likely necessitate additional income. This would mean more time ratting or other ISK making opportunities or limiting freighter ganking to more economically viable ones. Either way....the overall effect is less ganking.
Bottom line: make something more costly (in terms of ISK, time, or both) you tend to get less of it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 02:00:59 -
[118] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: No they don't. They just jump into a new ship and fit it up and does the same crime over and over. Such hard work right there, right?
No, we want to let EVE punish the criminals who break the rules of high sec harder and harder the more crimes they do, like everyone would do.
And read my edit about what the freighter pilots has to do as i edited it after you started to answer me on it.
And as usual the anti-ganker dishonesty comes through.
Lets ignore all the logistics work to get those ships in place. Lets ignore the work of the scanning ships, the bumpers, and the guy pulling CONCORD, the guy suicide scramming, and the fact that it is 25 guys in fleet. All to take down one foolish pilot who put way too much cargo value into his ship.
Yup. It is so easy it practically happens without any effort at all. What a completely dishonest pile of bullcrap.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 02:01:57 -
[119] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote: How does my idea of the said criminal system i have been talking about prevents the freighters from being ganked any lesser or make it a lesser risk of getting ganked?
Really you need me to spell it out for you? Okay. Lots of gankers have -10 status. They'd have to, at a minimum stop ganking and go to NS to repair their status or use tags, which would be quite an ISK burden. So that would likely necessitate additional income. This would mean more time ratting or other ISK making opportunities or limiting freighter ganking to more economically viable ones. Either way....the overall effect is less ganking. Bottom line: make something more costly (in terms of ISK, time, or both) you tend to get less of it. No, a -10 pilot can easily jump into high sec in a Destroyer and then gank someone as long as he's smart to jump into a high sec system where he wont be tackled by anyone. And that's also another problem. An outlaw shouldn't be able to jump into high sec in anything bigger than a pod or a Shuttle. Yes, you can do whatever you would like to do in space in a pod or a shuttle or any other businesses in station while being -10, but allowing a -10 criminal player into high sec in a pvp fitted Destroyer is the same as allowing Osama Bin Laden to take a plane to USA and freely run around with his guns there, which are stupid. If you are a criminal, you should be treated as an actual criminal, which is the whole point.
What pray tell can a -10 ganker gank in a single destroyer?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 02:08:51 -
[120] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:What pray tell can a -10 ganker gank in a single destroyer? And if 20 -10 outlaws jumps in at the same time in a Destroyer avoiding getting caught, then what? You still don't see the issue? It's simple. If you want to continue doing crimes in high sec, then fix your security status.
Wait, you were complaining about 1 criminal.
Now it is suddenly 10 or even 20. I don't expect you to get this, but the fact that it takes a sizeable number of people to gank a freighter is yet another constraint on ganking.
And no, I don't see the issue, because I am not at all convinced that ganking is a big problem.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:05:29 -
[121] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:
And no, I don't see the issue, because I am not at all convinced that ganking is a big problem.
Yeah, one dude / outlaw was just an example. Because if that gets applies to one outlaw, then every other outlaws will get affected by the same. So because of that, a bunch of gankers can't gank that easily anylonger after comitting crimes before (the same day).[/quote]
But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:06:35 -
[122] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Lei YingLu wrote:@OP So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit? Check my corp and twitch videos and see what I do on the daily. I by all means am excluding this past burn jita event from the OP. This goon ganking (and I mean big fleets, not little miner ganking) has gone on repeatedly for for the last few month. Sure there has always been ganking, but goons are taking it to a new level staging out of Jita V - moon 17 station. Nothing to do with burn jita event. I havnt even logged in since the burn Jita event started. Look up all of the people who operate from that staging area on zkill and you will see just how much ganking isk they are getting away with. Follow them for a day and you will see just how hard it is to prevent anything they are doing. AG cant even prevent a freighter from being bumped without going criminal and just have to watch freighters burn to the ground like they are frigates. If you wouldnt mind, could you please reference me to a few kills? Karma Fleet - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - 75+bil in top 7 in last 7 days - + all the non-top 7 ganks. Gimme Da Loot - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - These guys operate with Karma Fleet most of the time in Jita Jason Kusion - https://zkillboard.com/character/95034355/ - Used to operate in Uedama mainly solo but since I started raping all his isk he moved to Jita to stage there. All of these guys have centralized and stage from Jita V - Moon 17 station. Look at the history going back and you will see that their all day everyday ganking brings in xxx billions a week. Just look at the 5.96t vs 14bil in losses.
Dude, you are aware Burn Jita is going one, right? As such freighter ganking stats are going to be incredibly biased. You are looking at an outlier FFS.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:08:34 -
[123] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Daichi Yamato wrote:how is that a problem? If it rakes in billions a week its only because freighter pilots are being dumb enough to put it in their cross hairs? STFU
A quality argument there.
And from the guy who appears to be totally clueless that Burn Jita has been going on for over 24 hours--i.e. your data is heavily influenced by an event that is aperiodic and hard to predict. What we in the statistics profession call and outlier.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 04:13:11 -
[124] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.
Derp-dee-derp-dee-derp.
The potential loot drop is what determines who gets ganked or not. So, 7 kills and 75 billion in loot. Let's subtract of 20 billion in hull value (and overestimate) which means that 55 million in loot. It means that on average, about 7.9 billion was in those ships of which 3.9 billion dropped in loot.
Now...why was that possible? It was possible because freighter pilots put about 7.9 billion worth cargo into their cargo hold.
If they had not done that, there would be nothing to post about.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:18:02 -
[125] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You're claiming that ganking is too easy, when provided evidence as to what actually goes into organising a ganking operation, you dismiss it because it doesn't suit your agenda.
As for ganking in Jita, for the most part they ship the stuff in themselves, they already have a logistics chain in place, they have no need to pay over-inflated Jita market prices. The current operation in Jita took months of planning and coordination to organise. Ganking is easy once you have the ships in your hangar which is the whole point. The point is that you as a criminal can commit crimes / ganking way to easy once you have undocked. And on top of that continue to do that times after times without any more consequences. Let's keep to the point instead of bringing in other things that hasn't anything to do with doing the actual crimes.
Yes, lets assume away all the hard work of various people and then yes, it is easy.
And of course completely and totally dishonest.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:19:27 -
[126] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous. A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences.
Your non-answer is duly noted. You were claiming that 10 criminals jump into HS, and then fleet up. But it can't just be 10 random criminals can it. They might very well shoot each other as the freighter. It is your boneheaded assumptions that are the problem here.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:22:27 -
[127] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:
The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.
Derp-dee-derp-dee-derp. The potential loot drop is what determines who gets ganked or not. So, 7 kills and 75 billion in loot. Let's subtract of 20 billion in hull value (and overestimate) which means that 55 million in loot. It means that on average, about 7.9 billion was in those ships of which 3.9 billion dropped in loot. Now...why was that possible? It was possible because freighter pilots put about 7.9 billion worth cargo into their cargo hold. If they had not done that, there would be nothing to post about. Lets just look at 5.9t vs 14bil.... and thats just karma fleet (burn jita events must be off the chain since this doesn't happen outside the burn jita events.) Kusion: 9.48t vs 31bil - a solo gank pilot
Solo gank with multiple pilots.
But why does he get 9.48 trillion? And have you separated out hull value vs. drop value? What? You haven't? Geee. How about how many JFs vs. freighters? Have you categorized the kill value vs. loss value by that category? No?
Well **** son, you have some work to do don't you.
Throwing around big numbers doesn't mean **** if they aren't put into context.
Did you ever take a statistics course? Can you eve-mail me the professor's name? I want to contact him and have him give you and F retroactively.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6009
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:23:24 -
[128] - Quote
Nat Silverguard wrote:NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Imya Wormhole wrote:I love how he is using the goons WWB background while complaining about goons ganking him. I love how both the OP and NightmareX appear to be wholly ignorant of the mechanic that they're trying to "fix". Says the guy who think doing crimes over and over again should not gain you more penalities or consequences. Don't pretend to be a smart guy if you can't explain why there shouldn't be a system like that in EVE. Oh i forgot. That's because you then can't do the risk free and no consequences ganking all day long as easily as you can do it today. this mofos doesn't know the mechanics and lore... CONCORD won't do what you or the OP suggest ever, they're only humans and are very much wary of us capsuleers. infact, they are already losing control, anymore intervention and impartiality will cause an all out war between capsuleers and they dont want that to happen. the only thing that holds this system is that us capsuleers are emphatic, if they make a move that will make capsuleers rally on to something against them is the time CONCORD dies.
Hi Nat, your late to the party, but better late than not at all.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6010
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:28:09 -
[129] - Quote
Faylee Freir wrote:Nightmarex, have you ever ganked before?
Good question.
Jonah is not really a "shoot them in the face kind of guy" and that's cool. But he has actually gone a couple of gank fleets just to see what it was like. And based on his posts it was a informative experience.
I think every BadGäó should do what Jonah did. Just try it and see what it is like. You don't have to like or keep on doing it, but see what it actually takes. Instead of making assumptions have an honest and up front discussion with people who gank freighters. You probably won't get to talk to the head-honchos, but talk to some of the people who do it. If your lucky maybe you can talk to the poor sod who fits the ships and puts them on contracts. Granted, my understanding is CCP has made that easier, but back in the day that was some serious work.
This notion that "ganking is easy money" is just too stupid to believe. Anyone saying that has not had to put 300 ships on contract.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6010
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:32:45 -
[130] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous. A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences. Your non-answer is duly noted. You were claiming that 10 criminals jump into HS, and then fleet up. But it can't just be 10 random criminals can it. They might very well shoot each other as the freighter. It is your boneheaded assumptions that are the problem here. The point is still that they can go in together by ganking something juicy and still be able to do that without any more consequences other than having to wait 15 mins. It's that what we are talking about. And that 15 minute timer is the problem. It's way to short when you start to gank more and more.
No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.
There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6012
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:50:23 -
[131] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.
There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic. You still get my point, even though you wont admit it that is way to easy to just keep ganking times after times when you have the ships ready in station. And my idea has to go towards each single players anyways. If you do a crime alone or if you do it with 120 others, it doesn't matter. You should get pusnished harder and harder for each players who commit crimes the more ganks or crimes you / they do. That's all that matters. Yes, what you do and what the consequences should be from that is what i'm talking about and nothing more.
Easy?
No, I don't agree because alot of work goes into ganking. There is a reason why Goons, et. al.decided to do another Burn Jita event weeks ago. They needed that time to pre-position assets to make Burn Jita feasible. Weeks.
You keep saying, "It is easy." And then offer a stupid "They just re-ship." Just so story. Well how did those ships get there? How did the modules and ammo get there? What about comms, FCs, scouts, bumpers, etc.
I'd call you a liar, but I think you are just simply totally clueless.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6012
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:52:43 -
[132] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Faylee Freir wrote:Hi Nightmarex. I noticed you ignored my question so I will ask it again.
Have you ever ganked before? I assume you've done lots of freighter ganking and know the ins and outs of the mechanics and such.
Can you please indulge us on your personal experience with ganking? I have been playing EVE since early 2004, so i'm pretty sure i know most mechanics in EVE.
Yada yada yada....what is your experience with ganking please?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:56:34 -
[133] - Quote
According to zkillboard NightmareX has killed 4 freighters and 1 jump freighter. Two of the freighters we killed in LS and 2 in HS, the two HS kills appear to be war decs. And the JF kill was clearly a HS war dec.
So, pretty much no ganking experience at all. None.
Now that that is settled....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 06:57:21 -
[134] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.
There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic. You still get my point, even though you wont admit it that is way to easy to just keep ganking times after times when you have the ships ready in station. And my idea has to go towards each single players anyways. If you do a crime alone or if you do it with 120 others, it doesn't matter. You should get pusnished harder and harder for each players who commit crimes the more ganks or crimes you / they do. That's all that matters. Yes, what you do and what the consequences should be from that is what i'm talking about and nothing more. Easy? No, I don't agree because alot of work goes into ganking. There is a reason why Goons, et. al.decided to do another Burn Jita event weeks ago. They needed that time to pre-position assets to make Burn Jita feasible. Weeks. You keep saying, "It is easy." And then offer a stupid "They just re-ship." Just so story. Well how did those ships get there? How did the modules and ammo get there? What about comms, FCs, scouts, bumpers, etc. I'd call you a liar, but I think you are just simply totally clueless. Again, logistics has nothing to do with what you do with the ships AFTER you have got them. How hard is this to understand? I'm talking about the consequences you should face AFTER you have committed a crime / gank with your ships. Yes, once you have started your ganking event or something, you will already have a butt load of them ready in station that you can just jump into and undock to gank another victim right away without getting any more consequences than the normal 15 minute Concord timer. Yey, such a hard task right there. This is not hard to understand and you have to be incredible stupid to not understand that doing crimes out in space with a PVP fitted ship has nothing to do with the logistics behind getting a ship to a station. Teckos Pech wrote:Yada yada yada....what is your experience with ganking please? I will tell you that when you can explain to me what a criminal is and how they should be treated.
Dummy you can't gank anyone if you don't have a ship to gank with....duurrrrr
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:01:08 -
[135] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.
There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic. You still get my point, even though you wont admit it that is way to easy to just keep ganking times after times when you have the ships ready in station. And my idea has to go towards each single players anyways. If you do a crime alone or if you do it with 120 others, it doesn't matter. You should get pusnished harder and harder for each players who commit crimes the more ganks or crimes you / they do. That's all that matters. Yes, what you do and what the consequences should be from that is what i'm talking about and nothing more. Easy? No, I don't agree because alot of work goes into ganking. There is a reason why Goons, et. al.decided to do another Burn Jita event weeks ago. They needed that time to pre-position assets to make Burn Jita feasible. Weeks. You keep saying, "It is easy." And then offer a stupid "They just re-ship." Just so story. Well how did those ships get there? How did the modules and ammo get there? What about comms, FCs, scouts, bumpers, etc. I'd call you a liar, but I think you are just simply totally clueless. Again, logistics has nothing to do with what you do with the ships AFTER you have got them. How hard is this to understand? I'm talking about the consequences you should face AFTER you have committed a crime / gank with your ships. Yes, once you have started your ganking event or something, you will already have a butt load of them ready in station that you can just jump into and undock to gank another victim right away without getting any more consequences than the normal 15 minute Concord timer. Yey, such a hard task right there. This is not hard to understand and you have to be incredible stupid to not understand that doing crimes out in space with a PVP fitted ship has nothing to do with the logistics behind getting a ship to a station. You are aware that in the real world, which you keep referencing, that the act of knowingly helping criminals with support or equipment is a crime.
Not to mention that wars are won and lost based on logistics. But noooope, lets ignore all that because it does not fit with the narrative.
Totally dishonest nonsense.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:01:53 -
[136] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:According to zkillboard NightmareX has killed 4 freighters and 1 jump freighter. Two of the freighters we killed in LS and 2 in HS, the two HS kills appear to be war decs. And the JF kill was clearly a HS war dec.
So, pretty much no ganking experience at all. None.
Now that that is settled.... Have you heard about having alts? Again, i'm not gonna explain you anything when you can't even explain what a criminal is and how they are supposed to be treated to me.
Well, post your ganking alts then so we can see. You keep asking for proof, now here is your chance to lead by example.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:03:32 -
[137] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dummy you can't gank anyone if you don't have a ship to gank with....duurrrrr Didn't i say once you have a ship in station, then it's super easy to continue doing ganks? Where do you get it from that i'm talking about doing something without a ship? Need glasses or something so you can read what i'm writing to you, or?
But how did the ship get in station? Magic? No! Somebody had to go buy the ships, modules and ammo, move them to the staging system, most likely assemble them and fit them and then put them on contracts, possibly hundreds of them. Possibly hours of work...but you want to ignore all that because it does not fit with your narrative.
There is a word for that. That word is: dishonest.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:04:20 -
[138] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:You are aware that in the real world, which you keep referencing, that the act of knowingly helping criminals with support or equipment is a crime. Yes, but there is no way for Concord to find out that a Freighter pilot is going to deliver ships to a bunch of criminals. In real life you can figure that more easy out, because of investigators who will find things like this out.
Uhhh no, you were the one to keep referencing the real world. The rest of us were fine sticking with in game references.
You made your bed, now lie in it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:06:16 -
[139] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Well, post your ganking alts then so we can see. You keep asking for proof, now here is your chance to lead by example. Like i said earlier to you, i asked first. Deliver your proof of what a criminal is and how they are supposed to be treated.
Nope, this is a new claim.
Either post the name of your ganking alt(s) so we can see or we'll just assume this is another dishonest representation.
BTW, for the record I have claimed to only gank on this character. You can go check zkillboard too. You'll see all the freighter and JF killmails I'm on. I would bet 99.9% coincide with Burn events too. I have not had a chance to kill a freighter or JF in LS or NS.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6013
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:07:59 -
[140] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:But how did the ship get in station? Magic? No! Somebody had to go buy the ships, modules and ammo, move them to the staging system, most likely assemble them and fit them and then put them on contracts, possibly hundreds of them. Possibly hours of work...but you want to ignore all that because it does not fit with your narrative.
There is a word for that. That word is: dishonest. Like i said, no one cares about how it got into the station. We only cares about how it gets out of the station and what you do with it out in space. There is a difference from getting something into a station to what you do with a ship after undocking it. Logic doesn't seems to be your strong points here, that's for sure.
But that is a just simply a lie...which makes you a liar.
A ganker cannot simply reship if somebody did not spend the hours to get those ships to that station/citadel for the ganker to reship into.
One must precede the other. You keep wanting to skip this part, but I and others will keep bringing it up so that everyone can see how dishonest you are.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6014
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:53:28 -
[141] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: Keep to the point of what kind of consequences a criminal should face once they commit a crime or just leave this topic with your lame trolling.
It doesn't help what kind of excuses you use when the whole point is that when the criminals DOES have a ship in station and then undocks and then ganks someone that is what this is all about. Not anything before that. Only what the criminal player does after they have undocked a ship no matter how rarely they would be able to get a ship or not.
If they can get 1 million Destroyers into the station or if they only can do one gank before they are out of ships doesn't matter as it's the act of criminal acts after you have undocked a ship that is what i'm talking about.
Keep to that or simply just stop making troll posts.
The point is that a suicide ganker cannot reship if somebody did not pre-position those ships, fit them, and then put them on contract.
That you want to ignore this is because it does not fit with your narrative....which makes you dishonest in the extreme.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6014
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Posted - 2017.02.27 07:55:00 -
[142] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: A criminal is someone who commit an act that is breaking the law. And by breaking the law, you should be punished harder and harder the more you breaks the law. This is a normal practice against criminals this way.
When you look at what a criminal in real life is............
In ordinary language, a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority. The term "crime" does not, in modern criminal law, have any simple and universally accepted definition, though statutory definitions have been provided for certain purposes. The most popular view is that crime is a category created by law; in other words, something is a crime if declared as such by the relevant and applicable law. One proposed definition is that a crime or offence (or criminal offence) is an act harmful not only to some individual or individuals but also to a community, society or the state ("a public wrong"). Such acts are forbidden and punishable by law.
The notion that acts such as murder, **** and theft are to be prohibited exists worldwide. What precisely is a criminal offence is defined by criminal law of each country. While many have a catalogue of crimes called the criminal code, in some common law countries no such comprehensive statute exists.
The state (government) has the power to severely restrict one's liberty for committing a crime. In modern societies, there are procedures to which investigations and trials must adhere. If found guilty, an offender may be sentenced to a form of reparation such as a community sentence, or, depending on the nature of their offence, to undergo imprisonment, life imprisonment or, in some jurisdictions, execution.
Usually, to be classified as a crime, the "act of doing something criminal" (actus reus) must GÇô with certain exceptions GÇô be accompanied by the "intention to do something criminal" (mens rea).
While every crime violates the law, not every violation of the law counts as a crime. Breaches of private law (torts and breaches of contract) are not automatically punished by the state, but can be enforced through civil procedure.
WTIF....?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6016
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:00:10 -
[143] - Quote
NightmareX wrote: The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments.....
Because it is a farking video game you doorknob.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6016
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:01:30 -
[144] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:The point is that a suicide ganker cannot reship if somebody did not pre-position those ships, fit them, and then put them on contract.
That you want to ignore this is because it does not fit with your narrative....which makes you dishonest in the extreme. Again, you are making no sense at all. If you want to talk, then please come back when you can talk about what the issue is with the act of doing crimes. Don't expect me to take you any serious from now on if you can't HTFU and discuss the actual issue. I will ignore you lame trolling from now on. Have a nice day.
Yes, it is totally nonsensical to ask, "Where do those ships come from."
Yes...completely ridiculous.
Jesus, but you are just being boneheaded in the extreme.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6020
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:07:34 -
[145] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote: The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments.....
Because it is a farking video game you doorknob. Like i said earlier, lame excuse for what the real issue is. Just because it's a game, doesn't mean you can just keep ganking other like no tomorrow without more consequences for keep doing it. It's a game that has to be fun for everyone to play and not just for the gankers. And like i also said earlier that you seems to have ignored completely is that no freighter polits is having fun playing EVE knowing that the gankers can just keep ganking forever without facing any harder consequences for doing their crimes more and more. That's the issue to.
In this video game we play immortals...people who cannot die. Kill my current meat puppet and my consciousness will fly across light years to a new meat puppet that will house my consciousness...I will then step into a new ship and continue on my merry way. I cannot be permanently killed. I can only be sent to a far off destination, at best.
I no longer identify with the dirt dwellers crawling along the surface of various planets. I have moved beyond them.
As such your notions of justice and law do not hold for me and my kind.
That is the lore of this game.
That you keep trying to shoe-horn everything into today's mores and norms just makes you look like a fool. Especially for a player since 2004. Are you sure you didn't buy that character?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:20:10 -
[146] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Because it is a farking video game you doorknob.
In this video game we play immortals...people who cannot die. Kill my current meat puppet and my consciousness will fly across light years to a new meat puppet that will house my consciousness...I will then step into a new ship and continue on my merry way. I cannot be permanently killed. I can only be sent to a far off destination, at best.
I no longer identify with the dirt dwellers crawling along the surface of various planets. I have moved beyond them.
As such your notions of justice and law do not hold for me and my kind.
That is the lore of this game.
That you keep trying to shoe-horn everything into today's mores and norms just makes you look like a fool. Especially for a player since 2004. Are you sure you didn't buy that character? Still doesn't help that it's a video game when everything in EVE is about humans flying spaceships. As long it's normal humans, then we should treat crininals like humans in real life. Yes, it's a game, but you still haven't explained why this system i have made an idea of should't be in EVE to begin with. Oh noes it's a game and they can't improve it you say?
Dude, it is still a make believe world. We are, by RL standards, all monsters.
Applying RL mores and norms we should all be rounded up and spaced ASAP.
Funny how you resort to RL when it suits you and abandon it when it doesn...almost like you are dishonest.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:24:48 -
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NightmareX wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:NightmareX wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:NightmareX wrote: Like i said earlier, lame excuse for what the real issue is. Just because it's a game, doesn't mean you can just keep ganking other like no tomorrow without more consequences for keep doing it.
why? if the game is about villainy, why should i not be a villain? because you said so? then, ..|.. good day. The game is all about balance towards everyone. One side here is having a very low balance vs risks atm that should be fixed. it is balanced, and nothing you say, unless with proof, can convince me otherwise. Good for you. But ask any freighter pilots who gets ganked on how they feel about the gankers consequences if those risk vs reward mechanics this way are fair or bad. You know pretty well what they will tell you. But you wont admit it because you are a massive ganker ingame yourself and don't want to get harder time ganking the more you do it.
Maybe the freighter pilot should not have taken on so much risk....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 08:26:26 -
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NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Dude, it is still a make believe world. We are, by RL standards, all monsters. Applying RL mores and norms we should all be rounded up and spaced ASAP. Funny how you resort to RL when it suits you and abandon it when it doesn...almost like you are dishonest. You should still get harsher penalties for breaking the laws in high sec. Oh wait, the police (Concord) is more intrested in eating donuts over being more focused over the law and punish the criminals harder the more crimes they do. Again, why shouldn't criminals be punished harder the more crimes they do?
We do. the worse your sec status gets the worse things get up to -10.
-.01 means pretty much nothing. As your sec status gets worse the harder it gets to move around HS. The more trouble it is.
I find it amazing that you have been playing since 2004 and don't know this.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 09:35:27 -
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Rivr Luzade wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:smart freighters are fine with the current system and find it balanced. Wrong, darling. Also intelligent and not lazy freighters get targeted a lot....
I disagree. People say this alot, but they almost always fail to back it up. Outside of a Burn event how many empty freighters get ganked?
People make this claim: Empty freighters are ganked, therefor a problem, but they never tell us how often an empty freighter get ganked.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 09:44:54 -
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Rivr Luzade wrote:Nat Silverguard wrote:Actually, no darling.
key word here is 'intellegent', do you really think that intellegent JF pilots that understand EvE and love this game would ask more safety and at the same time kill a legit gameplay? I consider myself intelligent and I ask for more consequences to ganking, not more safety for haulers. That's a big difference. Right now, there are no tangible consequences for ganking whatsoever: A ganker can keep docking in NPC stations, a ganker can keep stocking assets in NPC stations, a ganker can keep docking in an NPC station although he just killed another guy that is in that NPC corp, a ganker can just drop to any NPC corp in case of war decs and keep killing people and people in that same NPC corp. There are no consequences to their gameplay that matter (no, facpo does not matter, neither does their low sec status or killrights because they are only docked most of the time and only undocked for mere minutes or seconds). Naturally, players should be responsible for punishing them but at the moment there is no feasible way to actually do that. That is something that ought to change, for instance, in form of lockouts from NPC stations and the "encouragement" to use player built structures that you can at least engage. It does not provide more safety for haulers, but actual consequences for gankers. Blackpedro, I do not see that edge case as an issue at all. Ganking is a very conscious action because you actually have to enable the gank mode (safeties set to red). By consciously doing that, you know what will happen. Or should, because at the moment it is not all that well explained what can happen to you. Perhaps if an NPC lockout thing actually got implemented, this should be explained in more detail in the NPE/tooltips when you enable red safety.
We don't need more "consequenes" to ganking freighters. The problem has absolutely nothing to do with game mechanics or balance, but with player actions.
An idiot player puts 6 billion ISK worth of cargo into his freighter. He has created a prime ganking opportunity by his actions.
Let me repeat that, a player who puts 6 billion ISK into a freighter has created a prime ganking opportunity.
If the freighter pilot did not create this ganking opportunity there would be no ganking opportunity.
Yes, yes, the odd empty freighter might get ganked, but that is the exception not the norm. I have gone to Zkill and looked. Once i remove LS and NS freighters, and freighters with clearly double wrapped courier packages there are only overloaded freighters and the odd empty freighter.
So I repeat, the ganking opportunity is created by the player that is ganked. I have shown this in this thread here. In the end nobody disagreed with my point. If you are imprudent and you get ganked you really have nobody to blame but yourself.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 09:51:58 -
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NightmareX wrote:It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter. So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart? Again, OK .
Wow....how long have you been playing.
A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.
Cripes...why am I explaining this?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 09:57:10 -
[152] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:NightmareX wrote:It makes you enter warp faster (aka speed mods) over actually using the freighter as a freighter. So i'm not sure, but you don't seems to be smart by suggesting that a freighter can't use the intended modules for a freighter before they can be smart? Again, OK . Your ignorance is showing again, reinforced bulkheads make the ship slower to enter warp, they reduce agility which increases align times.
My God...and now we are explaining basic game mechanics to 12 year veterans....WITF?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 10:01:34 -
[153] - Quote
NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Wow....how long have you been playing.
A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.
Cripes...why am I explaining this? Was there something in the word 'FASTER' that was hard for you to understand? Being fast and being faster is not the same thing. Just saying. And i have told you earlier on how long time i have been playing, but you seems to have memory issues remembering what i'm saying to you, so i'm gonna bother telling you the same thing over and over again.
No freighter goes into warp "fast enough" to avoid being bumped if you are over-stuffed and the only guy on field, unless you have a scout who has webs.
But then you maintain using webs is not good game design so we can toss that.
So you anti-tank your ship to enter warp faster and all you do is make it easier to gank.
Good job.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.02.27 10:05:36 -
[154] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:NightmareX wrote: Not only that, but if every freighters starts to use reinforced bulkheads, then it wont matter as the gankers will just bring more gankers to make sure they die anyways.
doesn't that mean they lose more ships? isn't that adding to the consequence of ganking you? wasn't that the point? or is the point really that you want to make ganking so difficult you don't have to deal with it?
And they won't be able to gank as often. If they needed say 15 guys in fleet on average, and everyone starts tanking their freighter an they need 22 guys in fleet they can't gank until they get guy number 22.
Sheesh.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 10:06:31 -
[155] - Quote
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:NightmareX wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Wow....how long have you been playing.
A freighter will never enter warp "fast". I don't care how you fit it. It will always be a slow and cumbersome ship. As such, you should tank it with bulkheads. You don't have to be the fastest you just have to be less desirable than the dummy next to your. If he has as much cargo and anti-tanks his freighter you will have a good chance of getting through while he won't.
Cripes...why am I explaining this? Was there something in the word 'FASTER' that was hard for you to understand? Being fast and being faster is not the same thing. Just saying. And i have told you earlier on how long time i have been playing, but you seems to have memory issues remembering what i'm saying to you, so i'm gonna bother telling you the same thing over and over again. No freighter goes into warp "fast enough" to avoid being bumped if you are over-stuffed and the only guy on field, unless you have a scout who has webs. But then you maintain using webs is not good game design so we can toss that. So you anti-tank your ship to enter warp faster and all you do is make it easier to gank. Good job. lol he said using webs was poor game design? even if it wasn't original intended i find it to be great its a powerful way to help a friend using a tool that already existed in the game originally meant to make it easier to kill. stuff like this is why eve's sandbox is great
Basically, using a friend or an alt was not reasonable in HS.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 15:40:49 -
[156] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Wander Prian wrote:If all you do as a freighter-pilot is fit max cargo and undock, it's their own damn fault fot taking a too big risk. They should know better and be prepaired for PVP that MIGHT happen. How I love it when noobs run their mouths about things they have no clue about. It does absolutely not matter if a freighter fits tank or cargo expanders. Not. In. Any. Way.
By themselves, no. But when added with keeping the cargo value down it certainly can help. My JF has just under 900,000 EHP with expanders. And I can always jump out to my emergency cyno. Would you, if you were the FC of a gank fleet, pick me...or the anti-tanked freighter with 5 billion ISK in cargo (I would never carry that much cargo value BTW, I'd make multiple trips)?
I would hazard the same is true for a charon with bulkheads and 1 billion ISK in cargo value.
To be clear, again, nobody is saying: Bulkheads and you will never ever die, but 32.5 billion of nocxium in your freighter.
Nobody is saying that. Nobody.
Nobody.
What they are saying it is part of the overall strategy of make your freighter uneconomical to gank.
Add in a scout, webs, and such and you will be safer than if you anti-tank your freighter, fill it with 5 billion ISK, and then fly solo through Uedama.
How much safer? Based on the RFF annual reports, alot safer.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 16:24:28 -
[157] - Quote
This issue was discussed and settled.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6761597
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.02.27 16:36:32 -
[158] - Quote
Rivr Luzade wrote:Please don't make yourself look more a fool than you already are and refrain from telling me "Escorts work". They do not, have never and will never work.
Okay, this is not exactly true.
If your scout jumps in and sees a blackbird and a macherial there...and you decide to try and get through anyways, you are taking tremendous risk. When you take tremendous risk, you should expect it to blow up in your face more often than when you don't take tremendous risk. So, if you have an escort of a scout and he tells you that you face a situation of tremendous risk, your best bet is likely to not take on that tremendous risk. Dock up and wait.
I am not sure why people find this problematic.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 21:46:41 -
[159] - Quote
Dom Arkaral wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:I've noticed mechanics that gankers are able ignore completely, rendering certain systems useless against them. What are those mechanics? Hmm? *prepares more popcorn*
Holy Mother of God...I go away for a few days and this dung heap of thread is still going, but now with a different whine.
Yes indeed, what mechanics are they "ignoring"?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 21:58:51 -
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Amarisen Gream wrote:I skipped most of this:
There are two sides of the coin. Ganking right now is fine. The people getting tanked are the ones not using the system like they should. I am a care bear, and I am not a ganker, but all the tools they are bears need to taking care of gankers is there in the game already.
If memory serves me right a -5 sec status means players can engage you without concord intervention. Care Bears need to stop being *morons* and start taking escort fleets with them. Freighter being bumped: have fleet mate duel Freighter pilot, and web into Warp. Undocking from Jita, have escort team out side on undock ready to support.
Yeah, escort work is probably boring as ****, but so is coming to the forums and seeing people complain about mechanics they think are broken when they don't even use the tools that are there already to help them.
Escort work consists of a scout, preferably with webs. And even then you are really only going to need this if you are hauling too much. And even then if you have lots in your freighter, just go dock up in another station in Jita and log off for a day or so. If you dock up they may wait for you for a bit, but chances are they will move on to other targets.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:00:31 -
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Erich Einstein wrote:Wander Prian wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:
More than half the ganks that happened in 2013 are not happening today. Clearly ganking is not out of control, its getting strangled.
Trying to prove the nature of ganking with one statistic that deals with CONCORD kills is not exactly ethical statistics. We all know that when alphas were introduced, the player base increased largely and alphas were getting wiped out in herds. Player numbers have also been steadily decreasing over the years. That statistic does not say anything about ganking and how it's trending. Show us the numbers you are referring to. Show us the proof. I have provided my proof many times. Stop ignoring the trillions in isk lost on zkill ganker reports. Kushion's 10 trillion destroyed vs. 31bil lost satisfies me many times over.
Dude you wouldn't know good data analysis if it came along and bit you on the ass.
Just because there have been trillions lost to Kusion tells us nothing about the trillions that have moved around HS unmolested. You keep trotting out Kusion's trillions as if that by itself is sufficient. It isn't.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:01:33 -
[162] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Dom Arkaral wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:I've noticed mechanics that gankers are able ignore completely, rendering certain systems useless against them. What are those mechanics? Hmm? *prepares more popcorn* Hence the ability to read 60 pages of previous posts. Well you can Ignore the last ten pages of trolling ...
Translation: Erich has zip, zilch, nada, nothing, zero, the empty set, bumpkiss, zed....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:26:36 -
[163] - Quote
Okay, the question is, given all these references to how much ISK value Kusion and his merry band of alts destroys....
On what evidence is the OP basing his claim on that more ISK value should be allowed to move around HS with less risk? Merely noting that trillions of ISK has been destroyed by Kusion over the course of of 27 months. That means on average Kusion has killed 351 billion ISK a month, or lets say 12 billion ISK a day on average.
How much ISK moves around HS? The OP has made absolutely zero effort to tell us this. The OP has not made the case that there is "too much" destruction. All he does is point to a large number and in shrill and whiny post after post writes, "Too much!!! There, there is your proof!!"
But, a quick glance at CCP Quandt's reports tells us that the OP has his head so firmly ensconced between his buttocks it is a minor miracle he has not suffocated.
Nearly 1 quadrillion ISK flowed into the Forge in December 2016 and nearly 1 quadrillion flowed out.
Quadrillion, 1,000 times a trillion.
In terms of goods there is a metric butt loads of stuff moving in and out of the Forge and around the game.
Why does it need to be easier to move stuff around? After all, the OP quite clearly thinks suicide ganking of freighters is far, far too easy.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:28:50 -
[164] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Dude you wouldn't know good data analysis if it came along and bit you on the ass.
Just because there have been trillions lost to Kusion tells us nothing about the trillions that have moved around HS unmolested. You keep trotting out Kusion's trillions as if that by itself is sufficient. It isn't.
*prepares popcorn to watch your rant*
Yup, as I thought you have nothing. About how much ISK value in production is there in New Eden each day? And about how much is destroyed?
Here is a hint: CCP Quandt prepares reports on these kinds of things.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:30:28 -
[165] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Hiasa Kite wrote:OP appears to have given up. He's realised he's lost the argument but he's too proud to admit it, hence he's simply trolling. You can't help but feel a little sorry for the poor tyke. No... You are just trolling ... ask a serious question that isnt a wall of text and I'd be happy to address it. And relate it to the OP or im not interested.
^^^^
If you have the ability to answer it, I have asked two. But my guess is you'll dodge.
Here, I'll ask again:
About how much ISK value in production is there in New Eden each day? And about how much is destroyed?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:32:38 -
[166] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Dude you wouldn't know good data analysis if it came along and bit you on the ass.
Just because there have been trillions lost to Kusion tells us nothing about the trillions that have moved around HS unmolested. You keep trotting out Kusion's trillions as if that by itself is sufficient. It isn't.
*prepares popcorn to watch your rant* Yup, as I thought you have nothing. About how much ISK value in production is there in New Eden each day? And about how much is destroyed? Here is a hint: CCP Quandt prepares reports on these kinds of things. Make your statement using your stats and I will respond. I dont have time to do all the research you need to help you make your point.
Yup dodging....
Here I'll help you even more.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/MER/Jan_2017/0_produced.vs.destroyed.png
Edit:
Lots more economic statistics here,
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/monthly-economic-report-january-2017/
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:38:22 -
[167] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Here, I'll ask again:
About how much ISK value in production is there in New Eden each day? And about how much is destroyed?
You believe this production vs destruction of a regioin is important. I do not believe its related to finding an issue on why criminals in highsec can avoid capture by faction police and others (through warp invulnerability) until they are ready to be destroyed (ie after the 20bil Jump Freighter is down).
So, you continue to dodge and weasel.
So, since you don't think production and destruction have anything to do with it you can now STFU about Kusion's trillions of ISK. The ISK value has nothing to do with it.
And HS criminals do not have "warp invulnerability". They are relegated to ships that can enter warp quickly which means there are entire classes of ships a person with a low sec status are more or less barred from using.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:40:11 -
[168] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Dom Arkaral wrote:What mechanics Erich? Still haven't answered ;) This is the only serious question you get from me, so unless you give me a serious answer, this whole thread is just a way for you to get the attention people ingame aren't giving you.. because let's be honest, I'm pretty sure AG is laughing bosoms at this whole thread, and more particularly at you. See #1151
Working as CCP intended. They clearly intended for players with low sec status to be able to move through HS with fast moving ships--e.g. pods, shuttles, travelceptors, frigs, and destroyers. Such players are essentially unable to use cruiser sized ships and above.
Where is the problem?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:42:56 -
[169] - Quote
Hiasa Kite wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Hiasa Kite wrote:OP appears to have given up. He's realised he's lost the argument but he's too proud to admit it, hence he's simply trolling. You can't help but feel a little sorry for the poor tyke. No... You are just trolling ... ask a serious question that isnt a wall of text and I'd be happy to address it. And relate it to the OP or im not interested. Why do you feel the change proposed in your OP is necessary? Do note that I'm already aware of your opinion that ganking is too easy. I would like to know how you reach this conclusion. In addition, I'm interested to know how you think that such a change to HiSec criminality would benefit the game, not just the victims.
Clearly because it is too easy.
Erich Einstein is a master of circular reasoning....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:48:09 -
[170] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Here, I'll ask again:
About how much ISK value in production is there in New Eden each day? And about how much is destroyed?
You believe this production vs destruction of a regioin is important. I do not believe its related to finding an issue on why criminals in highsec can avoid capture by faction police and others (through warp invulnerability) until they are ready to be destroyed (ie after the 20bil Jump Freighter is down). So, you continue to dodge and weasel. So, since you don't think production and destruction have anything to do with it you can now STFU about Kusion's trillions of ISK. The ISK value has nothing to do with it. And HS criminals do not have "warp invulnerability". They are relegated to ships that can enter warp quickly which means there are entire classes of ships a person with a low sec status are more or less barred from using. again... *popcorn* Im not interested in trolling that topic with you.
So you make a claim and won't discuss it.
Yup, time to lock up this dung heap of a thread.
Perhaps you could try to explain what "warp invulnerability" is? No? Didn't think so.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 22:49:11 -
[171] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Hiasa Kite wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Hiasa Kite wrote:OP appears to have given up. He's realised he's lost the argument but he's too proud to admit it, hence he's simply trolling. You can't help but feel a little sorry for the poor tyke. No... You are just trolling ... ask a serious question that isnt a wall of text and I'd be happy to address it. And relate it to the OP or im not interested. Why do you feel the change proposed in your OP is necessary? Do note that I'm already aware of your opinion that ganking is too easy. I would like to know how you reach this conclusion. In addition, I'm interested to know how you think that such a change to HiSec criminality would benefit the game, not just the victims. Since you understand that ganking is too easy. Feel free to tell me how the OP doesnt effectively work and provide an alternative or fix and Im not opposed to editing the OP if your point is valid. I have done this for others such as lowsec pvpers who pod.
Liar. He quite clearly asked why you think it is too easy, what lead you to that conclusion. Besides Kusion's trillions in ISK destroyed which you have already admitted is actually irrelevant.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.02 23:24:46 -
[172] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Dom Arkaral wrote:LOL OP is out of arguments Seems like we bled the sheep dry boys GF Just not interested in trolling. I've already flagged many of your posts.
For what? All he has been asking for is the mechanics suicide gankers are ignoring. You can't respond to anyone.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2017.03.03 00:31:41 -
[173] - Quote
Hiasa Kite wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Perhaps you could try to explain what "warp invulnerability" is? No? Didn't think so. I have extensively explained this in a previous post. Please find it if you dont understand how targeting works. Smart bombs are a thing.
Not just that, but nobody is guaranteed getting a lock or getting off a shot. That the guy has to use a ship that aligns faster than most ships will lock makes the point...that having a low sec status means you can only use a limited number of ships when moving through HS.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6038
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Posted - 2017.03.03 05:40:23 -
[174] - Quote
Dark Lord Trump wrote:OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you.
The irony of a poster with the last name Trump making one of the most sound methodological posts in the thread....
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6038
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Posted - 2017.03.03 05:43:25 -
[175] - Quote
Amarisen Gream wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Amarisen Gream wrote:I skipped most of this:
There are two sides of the coin. Ganking right now is fine. The people getting tanked are the ones not using the system like they should. I am a care bear, and I am not a ganker, but all the tools they are bears need to taking care of gankers is there in the game already.
If memory serves me right a -5 sec status means players can engage you without concord intervention. Care Bears need to stop being *morons* and start taking escort fleets with them. Freighter being bumped: have fleet mate duel Freighter pilot, and web into Warp. Undocking from Jita, have escort team out side on undock ready to support.
Yeah, escort work is probably boring as ****, but so is coming to the forums and seeing people complain about mechanics they think are broken when they don't even use the tools that are there already to help them. Escort work consists of a scout, preferably with webs. And even then you are really only going to need this if you are hauling too much. And even then if you have lots in your freighter, just go dock up in another station in Jita and log off for a day or so. If you dock up they may wait for you for a bit, but chances are they will move on to other targets. I think you for your feedback. But I think you missed my point. There is already a counter to -5 sec status players. People just find the counter to boring to do. Fit a passive scanner on your escort fleet ships and make sure -5 jerks show up on your overview. People need to be educated on how crimewatch works, before asking for nerfs on a system they don't use as it was built. Concord/Faction Police are not built to protect players. Players are suppose to kill or protect their own.
Oh I totally agree. I was just pointing to yet another tactic one could use. Leave the Jita 4-4 Caldari Navy station and dock up and log off. Most suicide gankers will start looking for a new target. Wait a few hours and then log back in. Nobody will be watching that station you docked in and make your run.
Point being, there are a multitude of ways to solve these problems vs. running to Daddy CCP and crying like a whipped female dog.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6039
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Posted - 2017.03.03 19:22:13 -
[176] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote:OP, if you wish to discuss something, it is wise to not call everyone who disagrees with you trolls. Criticism is what improves and refines an idea. Furthermore, if you want people to have any hope of agreeing with your idea, you need to show a clear and present need for it, instead of just an opinion. Believing that criminals need to be punished more harshly is fine, but unless you can show why that would be better for the game, people aren't likely to agree with you. Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments; Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl; Without a single argument which they got from us many; Their point of view is: "I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all; So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling;
Really? I distinctly asked several times "Why?" As have several other posters.
So again...
Why should freighter suicide ganking become more difficult? Considering it takes a fleet, a bumper, a scout, logistics people, etc? Compared to the freighter pilot who anti-tanks his ship, puts too much stuff in it, and takes no other precautions.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6039
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Posted - 2017.03.03 19:24:55 -
[177] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:Criticism is then when you have and share with others your arguments; Most of the people who disagrees with "us" are just "NOOOOOO" ppl;
Without a single argument which they got from us many Irony in action. Most of the people that disagree are asking why. Every single argument your friends have made has been circular, based on opinion and unsubstantiated in any way. When we ask for substantiation we get fobbed off and the question is evaded. Quote:Their point of view is:
"I don't want to work harder cause of my crimes because.... NO!" and that's all Wrong. We're asking why gankers should have to work harder than they already do in order to operate, whereas the people that the changes in this thread would benefit currently make terrible choices and put in very little effort, and the changes would mean that they'd be rewarded for their terrible choices, and put even less effort in than they currently do. Examples of what work goes into a gank have been given already been given, yet they were poo-pooed as irrelevant because they didn't fit into the agenda of the OP and friends. Quote:So it's not Criticism - it's just pure trolling; Pointing out that people are failing to produce any supporting material for their claim is criticism Claiming that your opinion is fact, evading questions, circular reasoning, not producing supporting evidence, dismissing the opinions and supporting evidence of others etc are all trolling. Stop trolling, get discussing. Short story short - Cause of Ballance;
Again, where is the imbalance. How much stuff moves around HS in freighters unmolested vs. stuff getting ganked? Do you know? I put up some links awhile back giving some indications.
What precisely is imbalanced? That you think it is too easy? Again, why should it be harder? What is the underlying reason than, "Because I say so."?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6039
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Posted - 2017.03.03 19:39:52 -
[178] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:baltec1 wrote:Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Where is the evidence that the current system is unbalanced? This is what we want to see, and what the OP, NightmareX and yourself have so far failed to produce.
If anything it can be argued that the balance is too far in favour of the haulers, miners and mission runners these days. Just looking at the data shows the chances of getting blown up in highsec while doing these activities is very very low. There is that to consider, and you're not wrong. The OP and his friends seem to think that the balance is skewed the other way, yet have failed to produce any analysis of the data that confirms it. Which leaves me with 2 obvious questions. Have they actually looked at and analysed the data? Does the data support their claims in any way? I think the answer to both is probably not.
Ironically I have posted links to actual data provided by CCP Quandt and people like the OP and his lackeys don't even look at it.
If you look at production there has been a significant upward sloping trend. I'll be curious to see what happens in February, but there has been a ton of products brought into the New Eden economy. Part of it might be Burn Jita, I suppose.
But these guys keep saying "the data" and their "data" is Kusion's ISK Destroyed statistics. Which isn't even data, it is a statistic--i.e. it gives us a summary of the data...part of the data, it isn't even a summary statistic in the sense of ISK destroyed, but ISK destroyed and dropped. And even that does not tell us how much stuff is being moved around HS without being ganked.
In short, they have no data. When data and statistics are presented they ignore them. And misrepresent everyone else's position.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6039
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Posted - 2017.03.03 20:20:38 -
[179] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Really? I distinctly asked several times "Why?" As have several other posters.
So again...
Why should freighter suicide ganking become more difficult? Considering it takes a fleet, a bumper, a scout, logistics people, etc? Compared to the freighter pilot who anti-tanks his ship, puts too much stuff in it, and takes no other precautions.
Ignoring the 'more difficult' part, Ganking gameplay is currently bad. It doesn't create meaningful interaction between players, yes there is all sorts of preparation interaction (assuming they aren't multiboxing as some manage to still do), but the gank itself is a blink and you missed it event. Blink and you missed it events are not a good thing for the game, especially since they can be mathed out so carefully meaning the interactions result is known before it begins 99% of the time.
Most ship kills are "blink" and you missed it. And the interaction is not limited to just the gank itself, but the entire time spent in fleet ganking which can be a few hours.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You also can't dodge a targeted gank easily, if the gankers want you it's child's play to kill you, all you can do is drop the chance of them wanting you. The only way to not get ganked if they specifically want to gank 'YOU' rather than any high value target is simply not log in.
Okay, and? This is true irrespective of ship, activity, etc. If a group decides you are going to die, chances are, you as a lone pilot, you will die.
As for child's play I disagree. I have been on gank fleets and depending on your target you need several people for DPS, at least 10 or so. You'll need a bumper. If you are ganking for profit, you'll need a scanner and somebody to scoop the loot. Then there is the logistics of getting the ships and ammo in place. The actual moving of stuff. Assembling ships. Putting them on contracts.
And I'll once point out you are only seeing part of the picture: those who were ganked--i.e. took few or no precautions. Ganking the "low hanging fruit" is of course going to look easy. How many people are moving around who are prudent? How many are getting around just based on luck?
Nevyn Auscent wrote:This is why I've been posting about both changes to Concord (No ship spawn, just your ship blows up after the timer, to stop spawn lag) and the Concord timer increasing significantly (to 1-2 mins at least if not even longer), along side giving industrial type ships real fittings. The intent being to keep the average difficulty of a gank the same (If not easier since a longer timer means fewer ships 'needed' if they are afk), but making pilot skill have a larger impact as well as more time for other people to chose to get involved. (Including other gankers jumping in).
So...you are suggesting increasing the CONCORD response times, but allowing for more fitting options? Like say some form of weaponry?
At least that is a new idea vs. the usual rants. I guess I'd be a oh so slightly worried about fatigue and NS but that would depend on the weapon systems I guess. Could be an interesting discussion. I would still argue that a single pilot/ship should not generally be a match for an entire fleet of ships.
Nevyn Auscent wrote:To sum up, the current situation doesn't create a feeling of involvement for the target, this can be dramatically improved without changing ganking difficulty overall. And is the direction changes should go in.
Once you are being bumped, this is true. There is little a pilot can do at that point...but again, that is usually after multiple mistakes.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6040
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Posted - 2017.03.03 20:40:10 -
[180] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: So...you are suggesting increasing the CONCORD response times, but allowing for more fitting options? Like say some form of weaponry?
At least that is a new idea vs. the usual rants. I guess I'd be a oh so slightly worried about fatigue and NS but that would depend on the weapon systems I guess. Could be an interesting discussion. I would still argue that a single pilot/ship should not generally be a match for an entire fleet of ships.
Effectively yes, I'll agree to disagree on some of your other points, or at least on the relevance of them, though I agree most ship kills are blink and you miss them, and I also regard that as a bad thing even in Null fleet vs fleet combat. I also agree that a single ship/pilot should still go down vs a group. The vision I see is industrials being somewhat akin to WW2 bombers vs fighters. They can have tank, prop mods, and some unbonused weapons (Say 3-4 Med sized weapons with zero bonuses, maybe up to large weapon allowances on freighters). Cargo expanders get a stacking penalty so it's not an all or nothing, because really, non stacking % based mods were always a bad idea. So yeah, a lone industrial is still going to explode not a problem. But you can then have impromptu or organised convoys of industrials. And putting 10 industrials in a convoy together then presents a harder target. Now yes, you 'could' use escorts currently, but A: The gank is over too fast for escorts to have much influence. & B: Escorts are worthless if no gank is attempted, resulting in lost income. By having the industrials doing a self convoy you get a similar effect to what CCP did with the Porpoise & Rorqual. 1v1 they are outgunned by a dedicated combat ship their own size, but in a larger group they can beat off or at least inflict losses on an attacking group. (Or sometimes just be so overwhelmed they die anyway). But if no attack happens they are still useful and doing their primary task. So with longer gank timers, and industrials able to 'self escort' by forming convoys, you would hopefully see a lot more interaction & chaos. As well as more interesting fights in high sec since Concord wouldn't be along in 10 seconds to stop all the shooting. (& no more lag from 500 concord ships, oh god. Meaning you could smart bomb jita undock if you really wanted to with BS to tank the station guns also)
Okay...interesting. Much better than the OP, at least it is a new idea. Need to think about it.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6040
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Posted - 2017.03.03 20:45:17 -
[181] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote:I'm open to increasing the response time of concord. Given more time to gank, the gankers will use less bodies. At the same time anti-gankers have more opportunity to prevent a gank.
But it's a thing with carebears that they must ruin the game for themselves.
Ain't that the truth. I imagine the typical carebear reaction to Nevyn's idea would be horror.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6043
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Posted - 2017.03.04 18:42:45 -
[182] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:Lie is as the gangers sits with sec status above -5 which wont let them gang in space as they are cleared their status for 150 mil already; Roger out;
The relevant word was "most", which is not the same as all. Certainly some gankers do pay for tags to repair their sec status, however many do not. Now that we've got that out of the way, where did I tell a lie, and how was I trolling?
Not only that but from the video we see he got 2 tornadoes, that alone could be enough for foil a specific gank. Yes, they may very well reship and come back, but the freighter they did have in mind of ganking may very well be in a 0.8 or even a 0.9 system. That is, you don't have to kill them all, just enough so that their DPS drops low enough to prevent the gank.
You can also try to scan these guys down too ya know. Scan them down, warp into the middle of them, scram some release drones and start shooting.
But nooo. That isn't good enough.
Anyone getting the impression these guys are just fecking lazy as Hell?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6043
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Posted - 2017.03.04 18:55:48 -
[183] - Quote
Naye Nathaniel wrote:
**** im done with that massive **** of trolls; You just throw at them with evidence and they still trying to prove you that "it's fine like it is" fck u :) no more respond from a twats like u =]
What evidence? Your own video shows it is possible to shoot these guys. He blapped 2 tornados, got some loot, and then was bribed to leave them alone.
Sounds like a totally valid counter to me.
You are bitching and whining and crying like a punk. Why? Because, well...to be honest either you suck or your are lazy, possibly both. Get a few friends. Fleet up. Fit a ship with probes, scan the bastards down if they are at a ping. Warp into them and then you and your buddies shoot everyone that either has a kill right or has a low enough sec status. If they have 15 guys and you kill 5 and now they don't have enough DPS...no gank until those guys come back. You win, for now.
And good thing is every time they gank somebody they acquire a new kill right.
Get off your arse and go shoot them vs. crying here.
And if HS scrubs would stop putting tens of millions to activate their kill rights they'd likely make it even easier to shoot the gankers. But nope, the losers are either greedy or just ignorant of how the system works.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6043
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Posted - 2017.03.04 19:22:44 -
[184] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote: the losers are either greedy or just ignorant of how the system works. Well, they are generally the same numbskulls that think cramming their freighters full of isk and then using Autopillock* is a good idea. Stupid is as stupid does. *Thanks to a random guy on the Eve facebook page for this gem of a word, told him I was going to steal it.
Indeed, greed and stupidity is a dangerous combination.
And yes, pillock is a wonderful word.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6044
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Posted - 2017.03.05 01:51:32 -
[185] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:Naye Nathaniel wrote:Lie is as the gangers sits with sec status above -5 which wont let them gang in space as they are cleared their status for 150 mil already; Roger out; Show me a prove that "many do not" - as repairing their status is cheap and ez; I just pulled the last 2500 ganks by CODE. Total ganks analysed:2543 Total CODE. members involved:112 % of CODE. members as outlaw when ganking:78.6% (88 of 112) % of CODE. members not outlaw when ganking:21.4% % of outlaw ganks: 93.7% (2382 of 2543) % of not outlaw ganks:6.3% (161 of 2543) The CODE. attackers on gank killmails are outlaw 93.7% of the time.You can repeat the analysis yourself if you like. Here's the data (A total of about 4000 killmails as not all CODE. kills are ganks):: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B1nitFwBo5aARjRfZTlmd3dETUk This result is consistent across months of checking data. >90% of CODE. attackers that appear on killmails are outlaw. CODE. of course aren't the only gankers in existence, just the most active. ____________________________________________ And here are the names: NameSec Status# Ganks Zane Arnolles -1032 Aaaarrgg -10138 Skiff Poddington -1046 Kiara Successfuel -1013 Kirigi -1028 Milkmypigeon -1015 Kibbera -1076 Count Ragnar Danneskjold -1025 Koiji -1028 Agent Hex -102 Captain Cortar -1024 Ralliana -102 Jeremiah Kusion -1047 Yabba Dabba Do -1010 ST0NER SMURFETTE -101 Brutal Anna -108 Keraina Talie-Kuo -1077 Perlo Tissant -108 Mack Poddington -1044 Knackered Old Goat -102 Guybertini -1058 Jackson Kusion -1046 ST0NER SMURF -101 Ima Wreckyou -104 Ngoq TlhamChu' ChutEnforce -107 PostOp Transexual -1013 Kanji Kan -1028 Luna Nightblood -101 Alt 00 -1029 Photon Death -1057 Plasma Death -1061 Mildron Klinker -1090 Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri -1026 Andrea Ellecon -103 Mark Eting -108 Pod-Goo Repoman -109 Lament von Gankenheim -102 Jack Van Impe -103 Joseph Kusion -1047 Lillie Naari -1028 Tender Sometimes -108 NotTheSmartestCookie -1042 Hulk Poddington -1045 Molly Klinker -1082 GR13Fy -1017 Alexander Kirenski -1010 Fiddly Pop -1043 Jason Kusion -1054 V-ktor Dolus -102 Joel Kusion -1050 Joshua Kusion -1049 Hide Yo Hulks -105 Spine Ripper -1011 Justin Kusion -1050 Charlie Nelson Reilly -103 Krominal -1043 Vilinensis Octoria -102 Liek DarZ -1064 Jake Kusion -1050 Lawrence Lawton -1051 Brigantine M2 -105 Pod-Goo RepoWoman -1062 Johnathan Kusion -1046 Jana Grebb -1020 DEVILISH ST0NER SMURF -101 Eleni Helios -1015 Tisiphone Dira -1057 Alt Proxy -1021 Jayden Kusion -1050 Rick Therapist -1013 Gavril Ilizarov -105 Lichelle Marie -9.934 Agrona Martin -9.85 Baby Lemba -9.813 Lemba -9.710 Kill-Chan -9.613 Cautiously Pessimistic -9.537 I Can't Even -9.43 Booka Shade -8.93 Ron Chi -8.92 Marshall Mathars -6.91 Zombiepilot -6.93 achterlijke -6.79 Zopiclone -6.642 007 JBond -6.653 Duratan Muhahaha -66 Savin Aulmais -5.51 Nitetime Video -524 Sasha Nemtsov -4.92 William Morgane -4.52 Dude Magic -4.512 Marina Gankalot -4.16 Calrizzan -3.715 Lisa Tancos -3.77 Pod-Goo Repairman -3.26 Starshade -31 Tax Collector Discotime -2.98 Edward T'each -2.81 Snigie Audanie -2.723 Pod Destroyer Molly -2.36 Aaaarrggs Scout Alt -1.91 Super Perforator -1.917 Tax Collector Emile -1.81 Semtex Attor -1.76 Halifax Novacane -1.56 Tax Collector Richard -0.513 Jason Seitz -0.23 Ruby Daniella -0.22 Taxman Daniel -0.19 FightMeNow 03 Carebears' Nightmare 0.39 Dom Arkaral 4.92
They won't repeat **** because they know it will undermine their case.
Bottomline is they are lazy, stupid or both.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6044
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Posted - 2017.03.05 01:53:04 -
[186] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:
Not only that but from the video we see he got 2 tornadoes, that alone could be enough for foil a specific gank. Yes, they may very well reship and come back, but the freighter they did have in mind of ganking may very well be in a 0.8 or even a 0.9 system. That is, you don't have to kill them all, just enough so that their DPS drops low enough to prevent the gank.
You can also try to scan these guys down too ya know. Scan them down, warp into the middle of them, scram some release drones and start shooting.
But nooo. That isn't good enough.
Anyone getting the impression these guys are just fecking lazy as Hell?
Those who operate out of jita v do not gank in tornados like this. These tornados are not the ones who are ignoring faction police mechanics. They are keeping their security status in check to continue their ganks in highsec. The problem is the 30-40 man fleet running out of jita V (goons, karmafleet, gimme da loot, etc) that stay invulnerable in warp until the target is reached (the one being bumped and not able to get away). Then within a few seconds of attacking the freighter is wrecked. There is not much you can do to prevent the freighter loss unless a small AG fleet criminally ganks the bumper before the squad arrives. This logic is useless though because now AG takes security status hits and is viewed as a criminal without even making any profit. That's why no one cares to gank the bumper. The tornado guy's are ganking the the way it should be done (managing security status). The fleet gankers are the ones abusing system mechanics.
So you have a boner for Goons, that makes you even more ridiculous. Changing game mechanics because a specific alliance is using them is lame beyond belief. Either argue the merits or STFU. Stop it with the Grr Goons nonsense it just makes you look stupid.
Edit: BTW, if he were doing it with a talos and shooting catalysts or coercers he'd likely be one shotting them and could probably burn through more than he did. Even by his own admission he wasted time targeting pods. Skip that step and you'll likely kill quite a few destroyers.
Serioulsy, can you just stop whining and complaining and go out there and find a way to shoot them?
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6050
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Posted - 2017.03.05 01:56:42 -
[187] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:@Hiasa Kite
I've never seen someone spew out so much random BS. You did not address the point of my post, you just threw out random comments. You seriously need to go to the doctor and get checked out for trollidous.
He addressed every point, that you are obstinately refusing to admit it reflects on you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6050
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Posted - 2017.03.05 02:05:07 -
[188] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:You pathetic trolling and excuses are all the proof anyone needs. You wouldnt be so interested in trying to trash the tread for days at a time if the OP didn't have merit. The OP doesn't have merit based on anything factual posted, because nothing factual has been posted. It's all just opinion. Opinions are fine, but time and time again, some evidence to support what you are saying has been requested and ignored, time and time again, in favour of instead calling people trolls and repeating already stated opinions. Let's start with some evidence and work from there. So, for example, the thesis of your OP is: Given that, CONCORD (edit: Faction Police) and the security status are completely useless against repeat offenders (mainly -5.0 and lower) who fleet gank every 15min - 24hours a day. Yeah, im talking about those staged up in Jita V - Moon 17 station. Ganking as a profession and source of income should come with the requirement of having to manage and repair your security status based on the system that you are ganking in.Well, it's actually not a given at all. Where is the evidence that supports what you are claiming is a given? Your next claim in the OP is: To prevent alpha clones from continually being rolled and used as disposable gank toons, I propose that only omega pilots be allowed to set their safety to red, while alpha clones can only set their safety to yellow at most.Show us that this is occuring. Where is the evidence of characters being created, used for a short period to gank, then biomassed or just abandoned and new ones rolled. Where is the evidence that this is occurring and if you have the evidence, have you reported that via a support ticket?
The OP is, in a word, a liar.
1. Nobody ganks every 15 minutes for 24 hours a day. An organization might, but an organization is not a player, drawing an equivalence there is incredibly dishonest.
2. People with a low sec status are effectively locked out of cruisers and above. Get in a cruisers and chances are the FacPo or players will catch you and kill you.
3. To become a criminal you pretty much have to build up a list of kill rights, which anyone can activate so long as they pay the ISK, and if you want your killer to be killed sooner vs. later, set the kill right to "free to all" vs. trying to get 100 million ISK.
So clearly there are consequences to having a low sec status. The OPs claim there is not one is just a blatant lie to further his own personal agenda.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6051
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Posted - 2017.03.05 02:08:37 -
[189] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:They won't repeat **** because they know it will undermine their case.
Bottomline is they are lazy, stupid or both.
The guy claims to be a computer scientist. He should be able to do it in his sleep in a few minutes. The data is all there.
I know, but funnily enough he won't....maybe he can't.
If he, or anyone else, pulled the data I'd look at it. I'd pop it into SAS and start turning the data this way, that way, and so forth. Looking to see if indeed there is a problem.
But instead all he does is make shrill posts about Kusion have 9.6 trillion ISK in kills. As if that proves his point.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6051
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Posted - 2017.03.05 02:22:10 -
[190] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:
1. Jita V - Moon 17 Station - KarmaFleet Zkill 2. Great - This pushes people that refuse to manage their security status into null so that they dont have too. More null content. Something that CCP wants. 3.You can activate the low isk killrights yourself to clear them. People wont pay 500mil to activate a killright on you when you are in a destroyer.
A large alliance ganking 24/7 is not a shock. They are after all...wait...wait...wait for it...a large alliance. Dotlan tells me they have over 5,000 members, and even if we give each play an average of 5 alts, which is ridiculously high (my alliance which is old has an average of 6, KarmaFleet is newbie freindly) that means there are over 1,000 players in the alliance. That they can field 10-20 people 24/7 or near enough is not surprising, IMO. So your complaint of 24/7 ganking is just irrelevant to me.
Oh...and yeah, KarmaFleet is in which alliance....oh yeah GoonSwarm Federation...with an addtional 19,000 pilots. Lets say that is another 3,000 players. So now we have 4,0000 players who could be ganking 24/7. Wow...that is just...shocking! That 4,000 players could manage to put at least 20-30 people into a fleet 24/7. My God that is just well...completely trivial and banal.
Regarding point 2 you keep right on ignoring the point here. That a low sec player has limitations. That they have adapted to it is not a surprise nor a bad thing. Always screwing them over is a bad thing because eventually they'll just leave the game....and looking at PCU over at EVE Offline that might be a bad thing you dope.
Yes, people can activate their own kill rights, but that they don't or might not have had a chance to means there is another way to shoot them and not draw CONCORD.
Holy crap can you whine any more? Wait...I'm sure you can whine alot more. Can you let me get some cheese first, I got a blue stilton at the store. Let me put some on some crackers first.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6051
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Posted - 2017.03.05 02:25:43 -
[191] - Quote
Erich Einstein wrote:Dark Lord Trump wrote: Then get off your ass and give him some resistance instead of posting here calling everyone who disagrees with you trolls. It's CONCORD's job to blow up the gank ship after a certain period of time. Anything more is the job of the players. Also, they're not very hard-working if they don't bother to take precautions against a gank.
We have not been talking about CONCORD for a long time. Get your facts straight.
This is a player driven game. Get off your ass and go kill Kusion and his alts. Stop wanting NPCs to do your work for you.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
6052
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Posted - 2017.03.05 02:27:08 -
[192] - Quote
Hiasa Kite wrote:Erich Einstein wrote:Hiasa Kite wrote:Wow, you can link stuff. I honestly thought that was beyond you. Having checked the post, there is no troll present. Maybe you just don't know what a troll is. I'll give you a hint: It's not pointing out the flaws in your posts. Look at your next ten posts from that point. You see the random paragraphs posted in at the bottom.... nothing but a pissed off troll. Roger dodger. I'll include the post linked for verbosity. Pointing out to NightmareX that freighters aren't actually subject to guaranteed instant death.Explaining to NightmareX that player interaction, both competitive and cooperative represent a major selling point for EVE and thus, shouldn't be nerfed.Continuation of conversation with NightmareX, mocking his claim that his objection to ganking wasn't the profitability. In an earlier post, he claimed that ganking shouldn't be so easy, considering how profitable it is. When challenged with the notion that profitability is dictated by the targets, not the gankers, he claimed he wasn't arguing about profitability.Pointing out that HiSec freighter suicide ganking is already a comparatively rare event.Correcting your suggestion that ganking is "unethical game design". The possibility of being killed while trying to make a profit offers a level of excitement rarely experienced in computer games./[url]
Asking for evidence.Asking why ganking should be changed.The NightmareX pendulum has swung back again, he's claiming his idea won't impact the value of anything. He's wrong, it would. He's also not explaining how such a change would benefit the game.[url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6856040#post6856040]Pointing out, yet again, that profitability of ganking comes from the targets, not the gankers and not CCP. It always comes from other players making mistakes. [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6856045#post6856045]Mockery of the "one more nerf" stream of ganking nerf requests. Often times, when a player has a problem with ganking, they struggle to simply admit it - honestly, I don't know why. Instead, they insist there's some convoluted system that ganking violates and and as such, should be changed so it can't be profitable, can only be done when profitable, can only be done with RP, without RP, or only done on weekdays. Simply put: They're lying about what they're trying to achieve or they've genuinely deceived themselves. [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6856048#post6856048]Pointing out that CONCORD will ALWAYS shut down a ganker in 2-24 seconds. Admittedly, you mentioned Faction Police, but your reference to a gank threw me and I assumed you were talking about the period between opening fire and CONCORD shutting a ganker down. There, done. I've analysed the next ten posts as you requested. There are no trolls present. The vast majority are helpful and critical, offering insight into some of the mechanics and behaviours associated with ganking.
Hiasa, I'm sorry but you linked only 8 posts. Clearly you are the anti-Christ and a troll.
Scipio will you tell Hiasa I will not be liking his posts for the next 5 minutes. Thanks.
"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek
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