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Mister Holder
Faceless Men
41
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Posted - 2017.03.12 14:32:11 -
[1] - Quote
This has probably already been discussed at length, but I am just coming back to the game after a long break.
Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up? With the POS system you could do any of this with a medium POS which costs a fraction of what it costs to put up a large citadel. Now we are forced to spend 6b+ for a large engineering complex with rigs, or 13b+ for large citadel vs what, 750m for a medium setup for capital construction/docking?
That is the end of my complaining.
Thanks for listening. You are all great pals. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6015
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Posted - 2017.03.12 14:42:18 -
[2] - Quote
Because Medium citadels would be abused until the end of time...? Also they were specifically designed for certain sizes of ships.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Keno Skir
1372
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Posted - 2017.03.12 14:44:05 -
[3] - Quote
You couldn't get out of your supercap and leave assuming it was reasonably safe with a medium POS. Eveyone could see your cap sat there and would blow up the med POS to get at it. Bad guys could bump your titan (with or without you in it) outside the POS and kill it, which again cannot happen with the new system. No password to enter every time u want to dock, no getting trapped outside when you forget.
There are improvements.
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Sir BloodArgon Aulmais
Fortis Fortuna Adiuvatt Dot Dot Dot
63
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Posted - 2017.03.12 15:46:44 -
[4] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:Bad guys could bump your titan (with or without you in it) outside the POS and kill it.
Too bad that's an exploit |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari End of Life
47286
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Posted - 2017.03.12 16:03:13 -
[5] - Quote
Sir BloodArgon Aulmais wrote:Keno Skir wrote:Bad guys could bump your titan (with or without you in it) outside the POS and kill it. Too bad that's an exploit Yes and no.
Exploit to bump it from outside the force field if it's completely inside, but no problem to bump it from inside the force field. |
Sarah Flynt
Federation Interstellar Resources Silent Infinity
275
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Posted - 2017.03.12 16:04:04 -
[6] - Quote
Mister Holder wrote:Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up? money
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Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
2951
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Posted - 2017.03.12 17:35:03 -
[7] - Quote
I'm pretty sure CCP didn't set out to make new structures in the image of "like POS, only less buggy". Rather, they wanted a) feature parity and b) a system that actually makes sense in their vision of the game. That drove costs up for some common activities (basic manufacturing, capital asset storage) but also introduced new risk mitigation and benefits at the same time. So... they're different, but the one that more closely aligns with CCP's long term goals is the one that is going to stick around. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6026
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Posted - 2017.03.12 18:15:04 -
[8] - Quote
The fact that Citadels are near indestructible and risk-free to operate through asset safety and zero base fuel costs is clearl evidence they were not modelled on existing POS. Citadel proliferation has become as bad in some areas as supercapital proliferation. These vulnerability windows are quickly destroying what little content remains in the game.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Mister Holder
Faceless Men
41
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Posted - 2017.03.13 09:15:14 -
[9] - Quote
The issue is that it now takes what, 20b+ to be able to build, and dock a capital ship in a c3 and under? It confuses me that a 5b Azbel that is able to construct a capital ship is incapable of docking one... |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
3904
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Posted - 2017.03.13 09:57:14 -
[10] - Quote
Mister Holder wrote:The issue is that it now takes what, 20b+ to be able to build, and dock a capital ship in a c3 and under? It confuses me that a 5b Azbel that is able to construct a capital ship is incapable of docking one... Maybe CCP deliberately intended for Capital shipyards and docking berths that can dock an unlimited number of caps to cost more than the capital does. Just you know..... a stray thought on the matter. A POS could only hold a very limited number of Caps, a Fortizar can hold as many as you want. |
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Aiwha
Infinite Point Test Alliance Please Ignore
1241
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Posted - 2017.03.13 10:04:49 -
[11] - Quote
Well the original plan had "mooring" options for caps/supers to basically attach themselves to undersized citadels and gain access to basic services.
They just can't figure out how to actually code that.
Sanity is fun leaving the body.
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
289
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Posted - 2017.03.13 13:07:06 -
[12] - Quote
Shipyards are not docks. Assembly lines are not parking lots.
Why would you ever expect them to be? |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6048
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Posted - 2017.03.13 13:59:59 -
[13] - Quote
Aiwha wrote:Well the original plan had "mooring" options for caps/supers to basically attach themselves to undersized citadels and gain access to basic services.
They just can't figure out how to actually code that. I would've been cool, but they would've had to limit the number of external ships that could dock.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Mister Holder
Faceless Men
41
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Posted - 2017.03.13 14:41:04 -
[14] - Quote
I guess I'm just complaining because the investment needed with citadels is exponentially higher than what it was with a pos to build, and even dock a friggin capital ship. It has essentially priced smaller corps in whs out of being able to have vaporizing ships in c3 and under holes. As it stands it takes 6.5b to get an abzel with calorific constructing abilities up in the hole, and another 13b or so to be able to dock it. That also doesn't take into account the very real possibility of them getting raped during the 15 minutes after the 24 hour anchor timer since an extremely small fleet is able to pop them during that time. |
Myxx
Black Eclipse Corp
776
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Posted - 2017.03.13 16:23:18 -
[15] - Quote
Mister Holder wrote:I guess I'm just complaining because the investment needed with citadels is exponentially higher than what it was with a pos to build, and even dock a friggin capital ship. It has essentially priced smaller corps in whs out of being able to have vaporizing ships in c3 and under holes. As it stands it takes 6.5b to get an abzel with calorific constructing abilities up in the hole, and another 13b or so to be able to dock it. That also doesn't take into account the very real possibility of them getting raped during the 15 minutes after the 24 hour anchor timer since an extremely small fleet is able to pop them during that time. As a cap builder and pilot, if you cannot organize and field a standing fleet capable of defending a large citadel during its vulnerability period, you do not have the capability to support a capital in combat with the proper subcaps. It is therefore irrelevant to you. |
Cade Windstalker
1082
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Posted - 2017.03.13 16:43:54 -
[16] - Quote
OP, if you can't afford a Large structure then just keep the cap-toon out in space and safe-logoff the character inside the tethering radius. There's a small increase in risk due to easier bumping compared to a POS, but it's still usable. Just don't AFK in your hole. |
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3190
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Posted - 2017.03.13 17:25:37 -
[17] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Shipyards are not docks. Assembly lines are not parking lots.
Why would you ever expect them to be?
You are right but from the other point of view, since production slots are unlimited, they actually kinda are. If a shipyard has 300 dry docks, you can effectively dock 300 ships there if you are not building anything. Now push this to infinity and yeah... |
Matthias Ancaladron
Wrath of Angels Solitaire.
182
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Posted - 2017.03.13 20:46:38 -
[18] - Quote
Cade Windstalker wrote:OP, if you can't afford a Large structure then just keep the cap-toon out in space and safe-logoff the character inside the tethering radius. There's a small increase in risk due to easier bumping compared to a POS, but it's still usable. Just don't AFK in your hole.
I thought titans didn't dissapear when you logged out and they were always in space. |
Cade Windstalker
1083
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Posted - 2017.03.13 21:03:52 -
[19] - Quote
Matthias Ancaladron wrote:Cade Windstalker wrote:OP, if you can't afford a Large structure then just keep the cap-toon out in space and safe-logoff the character inside the tethering radius. There's a small increase in risk due to easier bumping compared to a POS, but it's still usable. Just don't AFK in your hole. I thought titans didn't dissapear when you logged out and they were always in space.
Gods no, there would be *so many dead Titans* if this was the case. There are Titan pilots sitting in systems that aren't safe to log into and they haven't logged in for *years* because doing so basically means death.
Titans disappear out of space like any other ship. In fact the entire reason ships no longer disappear out of space with a combat timer is because at one point it was so hard to kill a Titan that the standard tactic for a tackled Titan pilot was to force a logoff and then their ship would disappear 15 minutes later. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
6727
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Posted - 2017.03.13 22:38:59 -
[20] - Quote
Mister Holder wrote:Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up? CCP have never posted their reasons, as far as I know, and I read the forums and blogs way too much.
I have seen CCP post their intentions for docking, though (can't find the post at the moment).
I would guess that the reason is cost vs. reward, and that citadels are the benchmark. Hence engineering complexes being far less expensive, they have reduced docking capabilities.
The new meta is if you want to dock a capital, you need to pay nearly the cost of an old outpost. Yes, there is a loss of functionality and cost effectiveness compared with POS. This is not the only example of that. It is just something we have no choice but to adapt to. |
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji.
2093
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Posted - 2017.03.13 23:06:14 -
[21] - Quote
Mister Holder wrote:This has probably already been discussed at length, but I am just coming back to the game after a long break.
Can someone explain to me what CCP's thought process was when it restricted capital ship docking and construction to large citadels and up? With the POS system you could do any of this with a medium POS which costs a fraction of what it costs to put up a large citadel. Now we are forced to spend 6b+ for a large engineering complex with rigs, or 13b+ for large citadel vs what, 750m for a medium setup for capital construction/docking?
That is the end of my complaining.
Thanks for listening. You are all great pals.
HTFU.
Citadels are way better than a POS. Do not compare the two. Also consider the scale. Any noob can build and put up an Astrahus they're roughly 1bn ISK. A fortizar is more expensive and unless you are very rich and determined, is likely to be owned by a CORPORATION or ALLIANCE rather than a single player. It makes sense that these larger structures accommodate capital ships because everyone knows that there is nothing more USELESS than a lone capital ship.
Hint, if you're a single player complaining because you have nowhere to park your single carrier/dread, you are playing EVE wrong anyway and it's only a matter of time before you get your shiny ganked from under you. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6060
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Posted - 2017.03.14 13:17:32 -
[22] - Quote
Citadels are fast becoming the scourge of high-sec as there's no efficient way to kill them. Not unlike the masses of mobile depots and mobile tractor units cluttering up the major trade hubs.
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji.
2093
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Posted - 2017.03.14 13:26:59 -
[23] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Citadels are fast becoming the scourge of high-sec as there's no efficient way to kill them. Not unlike the masses of mobile depots and mobile tractor units cluttering up the major trade hubs.
What's the matter, can't afford the war dec? |
Salvos Rhoska
2420
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Posted - 2017.03.14 14:24:28 -
[24] - Quote
Ive never understood the rationale of allowing Fortizars and Keepstars in HS in the first place. Asset safety mechanics already make this even more inane. LS should have a Fortizar limit, which even then is a wide concession.
Its decisions like these that make me go tinfoil hat again on NS interests projecting into HS/LS cos they dont have/or want enough content drivers to exhaust/involve their income back home and against neighbors there.
It just stinks. Badly.
PvE v PvP
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Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
3192
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Posted - 2017.03.14 14:59:16 -
[25] - Quote
Salvos Rhoska wrote:Ive never understood the rationale of allowing Fortizars and Keepstars in HS in the first place. Asset safety mechanics already/additionally make this even more inane. LS should have a Fortizar limit, which even then is a wide concession.
Its decisions like these that make me go tinfoil hat again on NS interests projecting into HS/LS cos they dont have/or want enough content drivers to exhaust/involve their income back home and against neighbors there.
It just stinks. Badly.
Someone please explain it to me again, why was this a good idea?
If it was not available, people would cry because NS got more powerful tools. It's just not the same people being mad but there would still be people being mad. |
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
6060
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Posted - 2017.03.14 15:03:40 -
[26] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:What's the matter, can't afford the war dec? It's not the wardec - it's the three 1-hour vulnerability windows every week. Not too mention the initial three-week vulnerability you can achieve by careful anchoring/vulnerability selection. And finally, with asset safety - what's the point?
I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
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Salvos Rhoska
2425
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Posted - 2017.03.14 17:08:31 -
[27] - Quote
Goddamit...
Second question:
Who is building the HS/LS Fortizars/Keepstars?
Is it HS/LS locals, or NS fronts?
PS: I already know the answer...
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