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VordLoras
X Legion Against Probes
0
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Posted - 2017.04.07 15:04:42 -
[1] - Quote
New idea, i dont know if this been ever discussed, but i had an epiphany today and i felt like i have to share it here.
First of all, i will tell you where did my idea came from. I am an adult player, a father of two. I dont have a lot of time to spend for gaming (as much as i'd love to). My current gaming scheme is getting more and more casual. This means EVE is becoming less and less my type of game, despite loving it, i just cannot allow myself for long night battles, gate camps, sieges or even incursion queues. I'd love to stay with EVE, especially the pvp experience, but the time i need to spend for such is very often not worth they wait.
Imagine arena mode in EVE.
I'll let out early idea simple rules, let's see where it can take us.
This should be all in-game menu type, account and player skillpoints etc should be taken in consideration.
Player pays a fee (let's say 10mil, to get in queue for matchmaking.) He is being given options of what type of ship he can use and what role he can fulfill. (based on his skillpoints etc). There would be a certain number of roles, each would require a certain skillset (that you could add to queue ;)). If a player fullfill all neccessary steps to be that role, he is given a ship (that he can use, picked from few ready fits) and placed in a queue as this role.
After some number of players (can depend on match type) is found, everyone is placed in his team fleet and match begins.
There can be closed arenas for deathmatches, teamdeathmaches. There can be convoy scenario, where one team must fly through 2-3 gates with cargo and other team must successfully prevent it.
This type of mode can be very good either for experienced players, new players and casuals like me.
Everyone could experience pvp and have some practice. New players, without any bigger regrets could partipate in this tough experience.
There could be a mode with custom ships - i.e participation can be higher, but you can use your own fit, that your character can sit in.
Let me know what you guys think about this idea. Would it be game breaking?
If you think this is too much for current EVE's state - this can be a standalone game. A moba type game on EVE engine, with it's own rules.
PS. This can be introduced as some sort of clone arenas in game lore.
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
480
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Posted - 2017.04.07 15:09:35 -
[2] - Quote
Has been suggested hundreds of times before, and each time met with a resounding no. Frankly PVP in eve isn't actually that great in and of itself, the only thing that gives it value is the fact that it has a cost associated with it. you take away those stakes and you take away the reason to PVP
also if you do want some risk free pvp just to get some practice in, grab some mates and jump on the test server. |

Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
47
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Posted - 2017.04.07 17:59:30 -
[3] - Quote
I still think that having concord titans bridge enemy fleets into otherwise inaccessible pockets (two fleets enter, one fleet leaves kinda thing) would be excellent fun, with an appropriate matchmaking and anti-griefing system.
Just boils down to what you mean to do when you go out to pvp.
If your version of leet pvp is ganging up on people, the current system is fine. If your version of pvp is to actually try and get a good fight, the current system is sorely lacking.
Just depends on what you're looking for... skill testing or a padded killboard.
Nothing says the two systems are exclusive options. Those who like to camp gates and kill the people passing through can still do exactly that... ratting and mining remain a thing.
I for one support a properly implemented arena, for good fights. PVP fleet against PVP fleet, solo against solo, small gang against small gang. There's more risk to all who participate because they aren't fighting in a situation where they've stacked the odds against their opponents.
The alliance tournaments are a thing already. That is an arena. |

VordLoras
X Legion Against Probes
0
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Posted - 2017.04.07 18:09:51 -
[4] - Quote
Old Pervert wrote:I still think that having concord titans bridge enemy fleets into otherwise inaccessible pockets (two fleets enter, one fleet leaves kinda thing) would be excellent fun, with an appropriate matchmaking and anti-griefing system.
Just boils down to what you mean to do when you go out to pvp.
If your version of leet pvp is ganging up on people, the current system is fine. If your version of pvp is to actually try and get a good fight, the current system is sorely lacking.
Just depends on what you're looking for... skill testing or a padded killboard.
Nothing says the two systems are exclusive options. Those who like to camp gates and kill the people passing through can still do exactly that... ratting and mining remain a thing.
I for one support a properly implemented arena, for good fights. PVP fleet against PVP fleet, solo against solo, small gang against small gang. There's more risk to all who participate because they aren't fighting in a situation where they've stacked the odds against their opponents.
The alliance tournaments are a thing already. That is an arena.
My thoughts exactly. What I am expecting is to give that "almost" free experience of pvp. In other games where there is no real cost of pvp like in EVE, the adrenaline ratio might be not that high, but still, there is a lot of competition and people are serious (ofter too serious) about winning. This can be exactly same thing here. You will always have that feeling of participating in staged simulation battle, but atleast you will experience it and/or get some know how.
With what Bjorn said earlier, i was expecting this thing was an idea before, but i was hoping i could get a new light, or some new ideas for beginning. Test server seems to be offline most of the time unfortunately.
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Kenrailae
The Scope Gallente Federation
764
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Posted - 2017.04.07 18:11:32 -
[5] - Quote
Been suggested into the ground. Was tried in a way at one point and failed miserably.
-1
The Law is a point of View
The NPE IS a big deal
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3864
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Posted - 2017.04.07 18:14:46 -
[6] - Quote
Lol i knew this would be about arenas. The core point of eve is the single shard sandbox. No instances. No matter where you are i can come get you. This would have to be a separate thing all together, like the sisi server where some players do hold arena matches.
There is a system on sisi where players gather for mass tests, but players also gather there to fight iirc.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite CODE.
3907
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Posted - 2017.04.07 18:26:38 -
[7] - Quote
No
the Code ALWAYS wins
Elite PvPer, #74 in 2014
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Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
483
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Posted - 2017.04.07 19:05:42 -
[8] - Quote
VordLoras wrote:Old Pervert wrote:I still think that having concord titans bridge enemy fleets into otherwise inaccessible pockets (two fleets enter, one fleet leaves kinda thing) would be excellent fun, with an appropriate matchmaking and anti-griefing system.
Just boils down to what you mean to do when you go out to pvp.
If your version of leet pvp is ganging up on people, the current system is fine. If your version of pvp is to actually try and get a good fight, the current system is sorely lacking.
Just depends on what you're looking for... skill testing or a padded killboard.
Nothing says the two systems are exclusive options. Those who like to camp gates and kill the people passing through can still do exactly that... ratting and mining remain a thing.
I for one support a properly implemented arena, for good fights. PVP fleet against PVP fleet, solo against solo, small gang against small gang. There's more risk to all who participate because they aren't fighting in a situation where they've stacked the odds against their opponents.
The alliance tournaments are a thing already. That is an arena. My thoughts exactly. What I am expecting is to give that "almost" free experience of pvp. In other games where there is no real cost of pvp like in EVE, the adrenaline ratio might be not that high, but still, there is a lot of competition and people are serious (ofter too serious) about winning. This can be exactly same thing here. You will always have that feeling of participating in staged simulation battle, but atleast you will experience it and/or get some know how. With what Bjorn said earlier, i was expecting this thing was an idea before, but i was hoping i could get a new light, or some new ideas for beginning. Test server seems to be offline most of the time unfortunately.
if you do want a low-cost, option for pvp with a high likelyhood of finding a fight in a short amount of time, join FW or RVB |

Old Pervert
Perkone Caldari State
48
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Posted - 2017.04.07 21:03:08 -
[9] - Quote
No VordLoras, you misunderstand.
In no way do I support low-cost or no-cost pvp. The biggest rush in Eve PVP is knowing that a loss is actually a loss. Otherwise who cares if you lose? Everyone will fly with high-grade slaves/snakes/crystals and blinged out everything. That's just power creep.
No. You fly YOUR ship to the bridge (with or without friends) and you match up with an unknown fleet of similar size, with no way to leave short of blowing up the enemy.
Daichi Yamato wrote:No matter where you are i can come get you I totally agree with you that people shouldn't ever be safe. If you're entering into a PVP arena with a matched group looking for a fight, you're far from safe. You want to be able to "come find me", then you could join up in the matchmaker and find me.
If I'm out ratting and not paying attention to local, I deserve to lose my ship. If I decide to start mining, then yes I deserve to lose my ship. Same goes for any other kind of existing activity where I'm not paying attention.
That said, the above is not PVP. The above is PVUR (player versus unprepared ******). Actual PVP requires that you have a fight that tests your skills. Calling the above PVP is by only the most forgiving definition of the term. It's a fight that you've decided to take because you know you will win and I will not. How boring. Sure it pads your killboard, and sure you get to take delight in killing something. But it took exactly zero skill, and that makes it rather pathetic. |

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
295
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Posted - 2017.04.07 21:26:52 -
[10] - Quote
Oh yes, the same tired old bleating about "unfair" and "no skill" PvP. Perhaps EVE is not the game for you if you want carefully balanced arena-style PvP? |

VordLoras
X Legion Against Probes
0
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Posted - 2017.04.07 23:04:05 -
[11] - Quote
@Merin Ryskin, it's not about "unfair", i have my share on kb in both ways, i just dont belong there anymore due to lack of time and i was just tired of the grind and preparation phase. I wanted the action , fast and simple. Thats why i am moving to games that provide it. I wanted to ask if this can happen to eve, but apparently hardcore base says no and it must stay that way. I know CCP plays it safe and will never itroduce it as a part of eve. Even if it goes green, it;s only as a standalone product.
I get the idea of the game itself and it is great, but i am looking for some more eve experience and VR valkyrie is not what i thought it will be (very shallow arcade shooter).
The arenas or partially prepared scenarios can be much more complicated when it comes to preparation phase or fleet leading (i/e only players with experience etc).
For the sake of the discussion it would be better if there would be something more than just "no" for a comment. |

Sitting Bull Lakota
SBL Co
284
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Posted - 2017.04.08 00:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
As fresh as the shrimp at an all you can eat buffet. |

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3866
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Posted - 2017.04.08 01:03:19 -
[13] - Quote
Lol join the matchmaking system and cross my fingers that i get the same match as you? Pathetic!
I want to burn your house down and loot your grave worm! There is no truer or finer pvp than the bare knuckles street fight when you least expect it with an enemy cunning enough to bend the rules. It doesn't matter who is right, only who is left.
Take your arenas and their padded magic walls, your precious e-peen you feed with your killboard stats and leave the real pvp to the men!!
Btw op, have you tried Fractured Space? Very good game.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
295
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Posted - 2017.04.08 01:13:21 -
[14] - Quote
VordLoras wrote:For the sake of the discussion it would be better if there would be something more than just "no" for a comment.
What else is there to say? It's an idea that directly contradicts fundamental concepts of EVE. If you want arena-style PvP feel free to make an in-game organization that arranges it. But at no point should CCP enforce things like preventing the competitors from cheating. |

Bjorn Tyrson
EVE University Ivy League
486
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Posted - 2017.04.08 06:06:04 -
[15] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:VordLoras wrote:For the sake of the discussion it would be better if there would be something more than just "no" for a comment. What else is there to say? It's an idea that directly contradicts fundamental concepts of EVE. If you want arena-style PvP feel free to make an in-game organization that arranges it. But at no point should CCP enforce things like preventing the competitors from cheating.
Oh if only there where arena style tournaments in the game. Possibly arranged on an alliance level. Would be nice to see some sort of eveNT that's more acessible for smaller groups as well.
But I doubt players could ever organize something like that. Better whine at ccp to waste development time on it. :-D |

Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
New Order Logistics CODE.
745
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Posted - 2017.04.08 06:47:03 -
[16] - Quote
Ganking a highsec miner takes up 15 minutes of your time at most and still can make a sizeable impact on this world. Who knows, your gank might spur your client to become the next loyalanon. The New Order of Highsec is arguably the most casual-friendly organization in New Eden, we don't need arenas when we have the Code.
Agent of the New Order
Live by the Code - die by the Code.
The Voice of Highsec
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VordLoras
X Legion Against Probes
0
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Posted - 2017.04.08 09:13:26 -
[17] - Quote
Daichi Yamato wrote: Btw op, have you tried Fractured Space? Very good game.
Yup, tried it, indeed a good one! I do enjoy most of the WoT types really, especially when those are space based. Now i am waiting for Dreadnought.
Merin Ryskin wrote: What else is there to say? It's an idea that directly contradicts fundamental concepts of EVE. If you want arena-style PvP feel free to make an in-game organization that arranges it. But at no point should CCP enforce things like preventing the competitors from cheating.
Well, you can say anything really, that can create a discussion, either criticism or support. A simple "no" doesnt give me a proper feedback. Anyway... CCP wasted time for Valkyrie and DUST, both were atmost mediocre in their genres - this because they only scratched the surface of the really good ideas... and they looked really pale comparing to EVE. I really regret there was no Dust for PC (because it died on consoles, with no chance to evolve) and the connection between the two games was almost non-existent.
Guys, i really DO understand the core of the game, what i am asking is to open another possibility, an option. What are you affraid of? That players who dont like participate in "real men pvp" will leave the game? That this option will ruin the game? I have not heard a single argument that this cannot be an option in a game. People who dont like pvp, are staying in hs. People who are driven by it are staying in pvp areas and spend time looking for it. People who left the game becouse of the bad pvp experience (was about it on yesterdays CCP Ghost's speech) are in most cases lost for ever for the playerbase. It there was an option to train yourself for the pvp, by doing arenas (this is a real acronym to the idea but let's stick with "arenas"), i believe the player base in the proper game would rise -ergo - more targets for you guys.... or are you affraid of trained dummies to fight back!? ;) |

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
295
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 10:28:16 -
[18] - Quote
VordLoras wrote:A simple "no" doesnt give me a proper feedback.
Of course it does. Your idea is fundamentally broken, and nothing can salvage it. The fact that you don't like this answer does not mean that more than a simple "no" is required.
Quote:I have not heard a single argument that this cannot be an option in a game.
Apparently because you ignored them instead of hearing them. We've told you the reason, it directly contradicts the idea of EVE's sandbox PvP. Unfair fights, cheating, dirty tricks, etc, are all a core part of the game, and having a special arena PvP area where those things are banned by game mechanics is not acceptable.
Quote:It there was an option to train yourself for the pvp
There is. It's called fitting cheap ships and going off to kill stuff. Or joining a corp where you can follow along in group PvP as you get better at it. Arena PvP is not required to learn the game. |

VordLoras
X Legion Against Probes
0
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Posted - 2017.04.08 11:03:43 -
[19] - Quote
I dont get it, you allow people to do WHATEVER they want since it is a sandbox, but apparently doing arenas (a more organised way to throw a small tournaments) is a condradition to doing whatever they want. Can you see the paradox here? |

Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
44
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Posted - 2017.04.08 11:28:38 -
[20] - Quote
There is some value here, even the devs have explored it. So long as loss and risk are involved, why not, one could simply expand duels to a dungeon where neutral logi can't just drop in.
Oh, by the way, for those who haven't got the message from fanfest, EVE is no longer a sandbox.
It is now officially a playground, and just because you do not like swings doesn't mean you get to decide other people can't use them. |

Tian Toralen
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
50
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Posted - 2017.04.08 12:13:44 -
[21] - Quote
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:Has been suggested hundreds of times before, and each time met with a resounding no.
Speak for yourself. Say "I do now want that feature" or "I do want that feature". When I write here, I write about what I want or what I do not want. I do not say "players want...". That would not be right.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6517010#post6517010
Quote:From a RP perspective: pirate factions organize these tournaments in certain systems. Players go there, transport or buy ships there, then they wait in space or in station, until opponents are found by the game and are given coordinates to warp to. Everything else is details.
The fight zone cannot be scanned. This is the biggest complaint I heard in the past about my idea. Solution: if the tournaments don't exist players would not be flocking to certain low sec systems to fight in safes and get dropped on in the first place. There would be nothing to be scanned down by the hardcore EvE players annoyed by my suggestion. But there would be more activity around that system and increased chances to catch players when they are not fighting. They still lose their ships when fighting.
Once in the safe zone they can't warp out until the enemies ships are destroyed. Also the safe zone has a duration of ~ 1 hour, after that the safe zone disappears, and the fighters can be scanned down. There are no decisions by the game about who won, just this safe zone creation, the ones that still have a ship are the clear winners. This would keep things simple. Prizes and other stuff, maybe betting, can be sorted out later. Yes, I proposed in-game tournaments in the past, I propose it again.
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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
3867
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 16:45:59 -
[22] - Quote
VordLoras wrote:I dont get it, you allow people to do WHATEVER they want since it is a sandbox, but apparently doing arenas (a more organised way to throw a small tournaments) is a condradition to doing whatever they want. Can you see the paradox here?
There is pretty much no one who has a problem with tools that let you run a good tourny. What people have a problem with is how most arena ideas PREVENT players interacting with those in the arena. The very notion of 'arenas' is pvp under RESTRICTION. Read: stops players doing what they want.
Tools that make a warp in point for participants? Fine. Tools that allow aggro between groups? Fine Tools that keep score and even matchmake players of equal 'skill'? Fine
Tools that magically move players or stuff? Not fine. Instances that PREVENT interference? Not fine. Tools that PREVENT certain equipment or ships? Not fine. Tools that PREVENT friendly fire? Not fine.
See where I'm going here? It's your idea that stops people doing what they want.
EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"
Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
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Nalena Linova
Virtus Crusade Curatores Veritatis Alliance
35
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Posted - 2017.04.08 20:29:38 -
[23] - Quote
I have two main problems with the idea of arenas:
1) removal of player agency.
As with many aspects of eve, the lack of features coded into game mechanics allows enterprising players to carve out a niche. If CCP added NPC couriers it would kill the playstyle of haulers like red frog and pushx. Likewise, if CCP added arenas it would remove the playstyle of those players who organise tournaments, such as the folks behind EVE_NT.
2) Diminishing socialization.
The kind of anonymous 'queue up for instant action' mechanics found in other MMOs such as arenas and dungeon queues always have the effect of diminishing the social aspect of the game. They tend to remove players from the game world and concentrate them in hub areas. They also heavily disincentivize the formation of social groups (corps, guilds, etc) as ways to find or create content.
All of my experiences pvping in eve have been unique, with real risk and consequences for the game outside the fight. I seriously doubt I'd have formed the same friendships, rivalries and enemies in an eve where I logged in and clicked a button to join a bland meaningless arena with random players every day. |

Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
298
|
Posted - 2017.04.08 21:17:29 -
[24] - Quote
VordLoras wrote:I dont get it, you allow people to do WHATEVER they want since it is a sandbox, but apparently doing arenas (a more organised way to throw a small tournaments) is a condradition to doing whatever they want. Can you see the paradox here?
Nobody is stopping you from organizing arenas. Create an in-game organization, set up your rules, and have some fights. What we object to is a system where CCP creates the rules and enforces them with game mechanics rather than player trust and reputation. For example, in a player-created system you're free to decide that your opponent's loot is expensive enough that you're willing to get booted from the dueling corp to gank them 10v1 when they're expecting a fair fight. In the system you're proposing this is no longer possible, and that is a problem. |
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