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Aquemini Amarr Amarr STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.06 18:49:00 - [1] The whole class of Assault frigates is in need of improvement, as they are often inferior to T1 cruisers, destroyers and even some interceptors. I can reference this post, which seems to have been largely ignored. Firstly, there has been talk both here, and on some other boards (SHC for one) that the assault frigates should be given their 4th bonus. Would this make them more viable for their role? Indeed do they have a role anymore? My second point will be that it appears, as mentioned in the above linked post that the Wolf and the Jag have their bonuses mixed. In my opinion, with the Jaguars ability to passive shield tank, and a get pretty decent speed for an AF it seems the most Vaga-like in design. Also note that the Jaguar and vagabond are thukker mix ships - ships designed for hit and run, the problem is with the optimal bonus on the Jaguar it seems it wants you to use artillery...and go >2km/s...not really happening tbh. Consider giving the Jaguar a falloff bonus instead and it becomes a frig-Vaga, orbiting outside web range, doing pretty low damage, but able to make a run for it if needs be. Now lets look at the Wolf; you could put arties on it, but then it becomes outclassed by a Thrasher, and has no grid/cpu to fit anything else much. There are some nice autocannon setups I admit, and some have had great success using it, despite the 2 massive holes in armour resists. How i'd like to see the wolf is as a frigate-style Muninn,Wolf+Muninn are boundless creation - big guns/no tank. But fitting arties on a wolf a) gets you outclassed by a Thrasher, and b) you have a useless falloff bonus. Switching the optimal and falloff bonuses on the Wolf and Jag would redefine their roles into what, I believe, they were supposed to be. Jaguar becomes the hit and run ship it always wanted to be - and the Wolf becomes a 40-50km artyboat. As a final note, should the 4th AF bonus be introduced, to give these ships the slight boost they need, the Wolf could get the Muninns' tracking bonus, and the Jaguar the Vagabonds speed bonus - though i feel the latter may push it too far into interceptor territory, but that is open to debate :) Thoughts? Flames? etc... PS: A smidgen more PG/CPU would not go amiss on the wolf either Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.06 19:28:00 - [2] Assault Frigates are not supposed to be superior to Cruisers in much the same way HACs are not supposed to be superior to Battlecruisers. The Minmatar Assault Frigates in particular are in no way handicapped, and alot of people already use a Vagabond style fit on the Jaguar. The only real issue AFs as a whole have, is that they're a bastard class, sort of like the tier I battlecruisers are - they're in an odd spot because at the end of the day, it's still a Frigate, it's a Heavy Frigate, but it's a Frigate. They're really best used for support defence, preventing enemy tacklers from doing their job. The Jaguar and a few other AFs are actually excellent solo boats already, however. I don't disagree with making the Jaguar a more effective hit and run ship, and the Wolf a more effective Artillery boat by means of a bonus switch suited to roles, but other than that I think they're fine as they are. Website Recruiting
Aquemini Amarr Amarr STK Scientific Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.05.06 19:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Yuki Li I don't disagree with making the Jaguar a more effective hit and run ship, and the Wolf a more effective Artillery boat by means of a bonus switch suited to roles, but other than that I think they're fine as they are. Thats really all i'm looking for, i too have had great fun in the jag in small gangs and solo, though less so with the wolf. Just imo, switching the range bonuses on them would give them better defined roles and enhance what they can do already. The 4th bonus for AFs has been argued over for some time, and there is a gargantuan thread somewhere on this forum that didn't sway the devs so i don't see this doing so Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.05.06 19:47:00 - [4] Yeah, as I said, most of the AF's issues are due to it's "size" as it were. Much like a Ferox won't kill a properly fitted & piloted Battleship, an AF shouldn't kill a properly fitted & piloted Cruiser. They're effective in mixed gangs, though, and pretty fun to fly so long as you don't get captured by a missile Crow by yourself, 50km from a gate... (I was the Crow in that equation. Do you have any idea how long it takes to solo an Ishkur when all you have is kinetic missiles? :( ) Website Recruiting
Mike Atropos	Posted - 2007.05.06 22:40:00 - [5] Give them an actual 4th bonus and they'd be worth their cost. For those who don't know what I'm referring to, the +15/+10 resistance bonus is auto-included on nearly every other TII ship w/o taking up a bonus slot. Changing it to a real bonus while keeping the TII resists as standard would give them the added edge worthy of their high cost.
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.06 23:50:00 - [6] Enyo: 4 neutron II (void) ab scrammer 2 magstab II 1 SAR II 1 tracking mod/explosive passive with this setup i dish out 11x damage mod on my 4 neutron II, i can kill a cruiser before it can lock my ship.. two of us took down an astarte, and an absolution at once. Do not ever under-estimate the assault frigate as they are by far one of the most powerful ship types in eve. The ability to move with tiny sig radius, high speed and agility along with cheap weapons ( my enyo 20mil tops) makes it one of the best ships to do combat in. The lack of four bonuses is nothing, as these ships get a bonus by being miniture versions of their larger counterparts. Unlike most ships they don't have to tank.. just stay in orbit of your target.. and keep moving even if you're webbed and you will have no problem taking down things even as powerful as a rohk or drake. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.06 23:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Tista Enyo: 4 neutron II (void) ab scrammer 2 magstab II 1 SAR II 1 tracking mod/explosive passive with this setup i dish out 11x damage mod on my 4 neutron II, i can kill a cruiser before it can lock my ship.. two of us took down an astarte, and an absolution at once. Do not ever under-estimate the assault frigate as they are by far one of the most powerful ship types in eve. The ability to move with tiny sig radius, high speed and agility along with cheap weapons ( my enyo 20mil tops) makes it one of the best ships to do combat in. The lack of four bonuses is nothing, as these ships get a bonus by being miniture versions of their larger counterparts. Unlike most ships they don't have to tank.. just stay in orbit of your target.. and keep moving even if you're webbed and you will have no problem taking down things even as powerful as a rohk or drake. You really believe that AF are that good? They are slow, fat frigates. I mean kill are cruiser before it lockes you? Vexor (no nos) doesnt have problems killing that. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:11:00 - [8] well considering my guns have a 2.05 second rof and hit around 110 damage against resists and i have 4 of them and i have enough hp to withstand being shot for a while from DIRECT fire.. which is very rare since i'm always moving.. small, agile and very quick.. i think i have a pretty damn good chance to kill you.. i was fighting my mate's retribution earlier.. with tank fitting i managed to break him in 8 vollys... 16 seconds against a very hard tank. The Enyo isn't to be messed with.. and if you think that's bad you should try my deimos 5 neutron II mwd webber scrammer 2 magstab II 1 eanm II 1 explosive hard II 1 repper II 1 pdu II 1 damage mod rig 1 ccc rig 1 pg rig now with that beast i get 15x damage mod, hit against 70% resists for around 300-400 a shot and have a 3.2 rof. advantage of the deimos is that it's small and agile much like the enyo.. just got doubled up guns -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:14:00 - [9] Originally by: Tista well considering my guns have a 2.05 second rof and hit around 110 damage against resists and i have 4 of them and i have enough hp to withstand being shot for a while from DIRECT fire.. which is very rare since i'm always moving.. small, agile and very quick.. i think i have a pretty damn good chance to kill you.. i was fighting my mate's retribution earlier.. with tank fitting i managed to break him in 8 vollys... 16 seconds against a very hard tank. The Enyo isn't to be messed with.. and if you think that's bad you should try my deimos 5 neutron II mwd webber scrammer 2 magstab II 1 eanm II 1 explosive hard II 1 repper II 1 pdu II 1 damage mod rig 1 ccc rig 1 pg rig now with that beast i get 15x damage mod, hit against 70% resists for around 300-400 a shot and have a 3.2 rof. advantage of the deimos is that it's small and agile much like the enyo.. just got doubled up guns My vexor has 11 k armor if rigged, 50%ish resists and 60% on hull. I could even put a small rep on. You get very close, so you can avoid damage, but this makes my drones unkillable. I rescoop em fulltime. No nos needed. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:20:00 - [10] Edited by: Tista on 07/05/2007 00:19:52 rigs on a vexor? please say it is navy. lol this is just crap for arguments sake now. if you want to go as far as saying " if i put rigs on my vexor" ill go as far as saying i'll have a t2 hardner specificly for your drone type:S -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Tista rigs on a vexor? please say it is navy. lol this is just crap for arguments sake now. Yeh true its a navy issue. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:26:00 - [12] Then it's already dead as far as i'm concerned.. i'll have a full leet frig gank squad in there with me showing you how it's done. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Tista Then it's already dead as far as i'm concerned.. i'll have a full leet frig gank squad in there with me showing you how it's done. scenario's suck. I could just aswell say there is a friendly carrier decloaked 10k from me. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:37:00 - [14] well shut up then, and dont say "what if i do this and if i do that" end of the day my enyo is kickass and theory.. which is what you seem to do a hell of a lot of on these forums is ******s.. fit your ships the way you want to and for the situation you're in and don't listen to anyone elses critisisms. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers"* Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:41:00 - [15] Originally by: Tista well shut up then, and dont say "what if i do this and if i do that" end of the day my enyo is kickass and theory.. which is what you seem to do a hell of a lot of on these forums is *******s.. fit your ships the way you want to and for the situation you're in and don't listen to anyone elses critisisms. Im trying to save this guy money and he should buy a stabber or something, stabber is even more fun than wolf/jag and more agile. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 00:42:00 - [16] yep.. agreed, just adding my 2 cents on the fact that not all assault ships are bad. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
Emolayshun	Posted - 2007.05.07 02:26:00 - [17] The problem of the AF, like some other T2 ships, is that they sell on the market for significantly more than their mineral costs. If you could buy enyo's and jags for 3m, then they would be fine.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet	Posted - 2007.05.07 03:25:00 - [18] Originally by: Tista well considering my guns have a 2.05 second rof and hit around 110 damage against resists and i have 4 of them and i have enough hp to withstand being shot for a while from DIRECT fire.. which is very rare since i'm always moving.. small, agile and very quick.. i think i have a pretty damn good chance to kill you.. i was fighting my mate's retribution earlier.. with tank fitting i managed to break him in 8 vollys... 16 seconds against a very hard tank. Try again. 110 x 4 every 2.05s = 214 dps. Literally max Enyo dps = 357.4 (4x magstab II, void, every skill at V, every 5% implant, zero resists/stationary target). Drop down to your setup (keeping the max skills/implants) and you get 239.9. That means your target's resistance is about 15%, well below even BASE armor resists. So either: 1) You're counting hits on structure, not actual armor/shield. or 2) You're lying and/or exaggerating. Take your pick. But so what, the Enyo has good damage for a frigate. You also have: 1) Fatal cap dependence on a ship that has to operate inside range of all NOS. 2) No ability to dictate range, on a ship that needs to get into point-blank range to do anything. With no MWD and no web, you aren't getting into blaster range of a pvp ship. 3) Mediocre tank. A single SAR isn't very much, even with your base resists. Once you're webbed, nos-ed, and getting hit by drones, you won't last long. 4) Damage output that isn't all that impressive for anything other than a frigate. Plated cruisers will tank you long enough to kill you. BCs will tank you until downtime. Battleships will nos you dry in seconds and then laugh. Just a fun little comparison. I realize quickfit's tracking thing seems to be broken, but you're webbed to a standstill, so it shouldn't matter: To kill a completely UN-TANKED, UNSKILLED Thorax with your setup and max skills + every implant, it takes you 35 seconds. The Thorax takes 8 seconds to kill you once it gets a lock. Who wins?
Copine Callmeknau Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.05.07 03:29:00 - [19] Actually the falloff bonus is better for high damage, close range artillery use than the optimal bonus. Wolf + Quake is a lot of fun, and the range is longer than on the jag. I think the bonuses are fine as they are, they just need the fourth one already. ----- Originally by: Uncle Chop Chop Harden the **** up
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.05.07 06:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Yuki Li Assault Frigates are not supposed to be superior to Cruisers in much the same way HACs are not supposed to be superior to Battlecruisers. The Minmatar Assault Frigates in particular are in no way handicapped, and alot of people already use a Vagabond style fit on the Jaguar. The only real issue AFs as a whole have, is that they're a bastard class, sort of like the tier I battlecruisers are - they're in an odd spot because at the end of the day, it's still a Frigate, it's a Heavy Frigate, but it's a Frigate. They're really best used for support defence, preventing enemy tacklers from doing their job. The Jaguar and a few other AFs are actually excellent solo boats already, however. I don't disagree with making the Jaguar a more effective hit and run ship, and the Wolf a more effective Artillery boat by means of a bonus switch suited to roles, but other than that I think they're fine as they are. just to make a quick point, that analogy you started off with should have been assault frigs are not supposed to be better then destroyers and Hacs are not supposed to be better then battlecruisers. that way you are comparing two classes with same tier weapons but one having more of em and a larger hitpoint etc. a cruiser to an assault frig is similar to a battleship with a cruiser Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
MissileRus	Posted - 2007.05.07 07:13:00 - [21] Destroyers are actualy frigate class --------------------------- 4. i like pizza
Neon Genesis The Landed Gentry	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:07:00 - [22] Edited by: Neon Genesis on 07/05/2007 08:05:44 Originally by: Tista with this setup i dish out 11x damage mod well considering my guns have a 2.05 second rof and hit around 110 damage against resists now with that beast i get 15x damage mod, hit against 70% resists for around 300-400 a shot and have a 3.2 rof. Learn a DPS calculation and your posts might start to mean something rather than nothing. _
Yali Puppets on Steroids	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:17:00 - [23] Quote: Now lets look at the Wolf; you could put arties on it, but then it becomes outclassed by a Thrasher Just a short comment. Most frigs will instapop if hit right by a destroyer - and if the thrasher wasnt a better artillery boat then the Wolf, i'd cry. Destroyers are built to kill frigs - and they are supposed to have an advantage over assault frigs as well. ---------- Kill them all - God will recongnize his own.
Draahk Chimera Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:41:00 - [24] Who said AF's is underpowered? My vengeance tanked an eris. When his fighters arrived things got hairy but I got out of the bubble in time to warp and my buddies arrived and killed the eris. I didnt even reach hull.
Dracu1a Gallente Warrior Nation United SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.05.07 08:59:00 - [25] Edited by: Dracu1a on 07/05/2007 08:55:57 Originally by: Tista well considering my guns have a 2.05 second rof and hit around 110 damage against resists and i have 4 of them and i have enough hp to withstand being shot for a while from DIRECT fire.. which is very rare since i'm always moving.. small, agile and very quick.. i think i have a pretty damn good chance to kill you.. i was fighting my mate's retribution earlier.. with tank fitting i managed to break him in 8 vollys... 16 seconds against a very hard tank. The Enyo isn't to be messed with.. and if you think that's bad you should try my deimos 5 neutron II mwd webber scrammer 2 magstab II 1 eanm II 1 explosive hard II 1 repper II 1 pdu II 1 damage mod rig 1 ccc rig 1 pg rig now with that beast i get 15x damage mod, hit against 70% resists for around 300-400 a shot and have a 3.2 rof. advantage of the deimos is that it's small and agile much like the enyo.. just got doubled up guns wtb: deimos w/ 3 rig slots. In regards to the OP, yeah i agree with you on most. I fly gallente and minmitar AF and the only one i really feel like i can solo in is the ishkur. Jag is alright, but the fact is these things really need that 4th bonus to be worth what they cost. 20mill for an ishkur + at least 12mill in fittings is just hard to warrant taking into pvp. now in gangs, a group of these things are monsters, and tbh are very hard to counter.
Davik Kurchek The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.05.07 09:10:00 - [26] Originally by: Tista advantage of the deimos is that it's small and agile much like the enyo.. LOL you clearly never flown a deimos before. ---
Captain Crimson	Posted - 2007.05.07 10:36:00 - [27] Tista got pwnt! But yea, swap the optimal and falloff bonuses. Originally by: Tuxford I have already expressed my personal opinion on this and it was very positive (something about happy in the pants).
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:22:00 - [28] 1. Enyo is good with rails, not with blasters. ( 95% of the time ) 2. Anyone saying that a deimos is agile is on some serious "boosters". 3. I personally like the wolfs range bonus, but perhaps the jag could stand for a falloff bonus as well. Although I don't really think it's actually needed. AF's have their uses, and no it's not blowing up destroyers, cruisers blow up destroyers, destroyers one volley frigates, and 2 volley afs ( except for mine, cause I got more hitpoints then most cruisers )
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:28:00 - [29] hush ur mouths. when the enyo gets in range of optimal all gun shots turn to critical his because of it's amazing tracking... so the dps calculation on guns is a complete load of rubbish and you can't calculate it that way. And as for my amazing 3rd rig slot.. well shush i made a mistake, yes it has 1 damage rig and 1 pg rig.. my hyperion has 1 pg rig and 1 damage rig and a ccc rig. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
Tista	Posted - 2007.05.07 11:35:00 - [30] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 07/05/2007 05:27:20 Originally by: Tista well considering my guns have a 2.05 second rof and hit around 110 damage against resists and i have 4 of them and i have enough hp to withstand being shot for a while from DIRECT fire.. which is very rare since i'm always moving.. small, agile and very quick.. i think i have a pretty damn good chance to kill you.. i was fighting my mate's retribution earlier.. with tank fitting i managed to break him in 8 vollys... 16 seconds against a very hard tank. Try again. 110 x 4 every 2.05s = 214 dps. Literally max Enyo dps = 357.4 (4x magstab II, void, every skill at V, every 5% implant, zero resists/stationary target). Drop down to your setup (keeping the max skills/implants) and you get 239.9. That means your target's resistance is about 15%, well below even BASE armor resists. So either: 1) You're counting hits on structure, not actual armor/shield. or 2) You're lying and/or exaggerating. Take your pick. But so what, the Enyo has good damage for a frigate. You also have: 1) Fatal cap dependence on a ship that has to operate inside range of all NOS. Fun fact: my Pilgrim will eat your cap in exactly 6 seconds. 2) No ability to dictate range, on a ship that needs to get into point-blank range to do anything. With no MWD and no web, you aren't getting into blaster range of a pvp ship. Fun fact: even close-range gunboats can take advantage of superior falloff and far superior speed to hit you effectively while taking essentially zero damage in return. 3) Mediocre tank. A single SAR isn't very much, even with your base resists. Once you're webbed, nos-ed, and getting hit by drones, you won't last long. Fun fact: on your highest resistance, you tank about 70 dps. 4) Damage output that isn't all that impressive for anything other than a frigate. Plated cruisers will tank you long enough to kill you. BCs will tank you until downtime. Battleships will nos you dry in seconds and then laugh. Just a fun little comparison. I realize quickfit's tracking thing seems to be broken, but you're webbed to a standstill, so it shouldn't matter: To kill a completely UN-TANKED, UNSKILLED Thorax with your setup and max skills + every implant, it takes you 35 seconds. The Thorax takes 8 seconds to kill you once it gets a lock. Who wins? don't do scenarios u nubby bear because i could say that i have a logistics repping me from 75km away and then a carrier's fighters under my command. At the end of the day i know for a fact that my enyo will be through your sheild, armour, and into your structure alot quicker than you will ever expect. I get average hits for around 60 vs resists.. i get excellent hits for around 110-120 vs resists.. i get perfect wreckers for around 200-250 vs resists.. And by the time you have locked my ship.. i will be within 500m of your ship unless you're faster than me in which case i'm gone, or since i dont usualy fly alone the ranis or ares with me will have pinned you down. And as for fighting a pilgrim.. i've flown that ship far longer than you have i'm sure and i know what it's capable of, and if i fight a pilgrim i wouldn't expect anything more than to die in seconds. And if you insist on my storys being lies i'll fraps you a video or two of my enyo ripping things apart. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.

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