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Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 10	Posted - 2017.04.23 21:59:55 - [1] - Quote It is really annoying how easy suicide ganking is and that it has basically no consequences. Its basically a zero risk activity, the worst that can happen is that you do your math wrong and don't bring enough alts to destroy your target or you will be unlucky and you don't get any worthy loot (if the purpose of the sucide gank is to make a profit). I do not care that some players are multiboxing 10+ alts for sucide ganking. I don't care they all attack simultaneously. But I do not think its right that they can live in highsec with -9.9 security status thats just nonsense. My proposal: 1) Disallow notourious criminals from docking in citadel stations. Force them to require other players or alt or to raise their security status if they want to trade in highsec. If they want to hide they have to use an upwell structure. Following current sec status and high-sec faction police mechanics, -2.0 or lower? forget docking in Jita. -4.5 you won't be able to dock in Uedama. etc. Alternatively, "notorious criminal" = -5.0 and lower. 2) No rookie/noob ship for criminals. Player docking or respawning with criminal status should not get a free rookie ship in high-sec space stations. Force criminals to obtain frigate/shutle if they want to pull CONCORD from the gank point or to wait the criminal timer and then commit new criminal act before station to do it (and wait 15min more). (Obviously we cannot prevent them for keeping a home station in high-sec so they could respawn there...) This suggestion probably could use some modifications because its probably not a good idea not to give a ship replacement to the newbie player who somehow attacks someone else in highsec from curiosity/stupidity and become a criminal. Maybe it should apply to "notorious criminals" only. 3) No citadel immunity for notorious criminals and players with criminal status. Force them to be docked in citadel before gank. Not to stay outside pre-aligned already. This three changes will give high-sec residents higher controll over well known criminals who keep ganking every day. Unless they invest time or ISK to fix their security status they will be banned from stations leaving them the onlxy option of player owned citadels. Citadel owners might decide they dont want to allow well known gankers to operate from their citadel so they ban them from there as well. Result - they will have to get their own citadel. This also can create a player oriented content about "allow gankers to use your citadel or we will wardec you" or "disallow gankers to use your citadel or we wardec you" etc.
Danika Princip GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 5460	Posted - 2017.04.23 22:04:08 - [2] - Quote @ISD: Can we have a containment thread for these idiots as well as the cloaking ones?
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3887	Posted - 2017.04.23 22:14:55 - [3] - Quote Stopped reading when i read the first lie. Couldn't even get past the first line. Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 10	Posted - 2017.04.23 22:22:53 - [4] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: Stopped reading when i read the first lie. Couldn't even get past the first line. Just another carebear that doesn't know his arse from his elbow. Just another suicide ganker that will protect his activity by all cost. I suicide ganked several ships myself. -0.2 sec hit lmao! And my victims didn't even knew that they can activate killright on me - like that would change anything - I fly through highsec almost always with suspect anyway. Killed bunch a newbies their Leopard for lulz. Got to say it was very hard to do and very expensive too!
Piugattuk Lima beans Corp 607	Posted - 2017.04.23 22:51:58 - [5] - Quote I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth. That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat.
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 10	Posted - 2017.04.23 23:05:14 - [6] - Quote Piugattuk wrote: I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth. That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat. thing is they do not even bother buy tags - sure some of them do and if they do, then they will have NO PROBLEM with my suggestions because they won't affect them But most of them don't do it because they don't have to do it. They stay tethered before citadel pre-aligned on gate they want to gank at and they do not risk faction police to show up and nobody can attack them (but they can attack any possible intruder that would want to try bump them because its their citadel that won't give him the tether). Granted - its their citadel, but its still workaround the intented mechanics of clone soldier tags and security status. Because that would make the continuous suicide ganking much more expensive right?
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3887	Posted - 2017.04.24 00:55:18 - [7] - Quote I don't suicide gank. I get ganked. I just have the honesty to say that ganking is not that common. Its not easy to do well and it's stupidly easy to avoid. The only reason you get ganked is if you ****** up. But you go right down this path of false accusations, lies and misinformation, and not understanding game mechanics. Every nerf ganking thread has these elements at their centre, so why be different? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Frostys Virpio KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation 3333	Posted - 2017.04.24 03:53:48 - [8] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: Piugattuk wrote: I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth. That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat. thing is they do not even bother buy tags - sure some of them do and if they do, then they will have NO PROBLEM with my suggestions because they won't affect them But most of them don't do it because they don't have to do it. They stay tethered before citadel pre-aligned on gate they want to gank at and they do not risk faction police to show up and nobody can attack them (but they can attack any possible intruder that would want to try bump them because its their citadel that won't give him the tether). Granted - its their citadel, but its still workaround the intented mechanics of clone soldier tags and security status. Because that would make the continuous suicide ganking much more expensive right? You could always siege the citadels if you aren't happy about people using it.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 342	Posted - 2017.04.24 04:13:49 - [9] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: You could always siege the citadels if you aren't happy about people using it. But that would require taking responsibility for their own safety, instead of removing all risk from highsec!
Cybertherion Pneumatic Cabal 7	Posted - 2017.04.24 05:53:41 - [10] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: I don't suicide gank. I get ganked. I just have the honesty to say that ganking is not that common. Its not easy to do well and it's stupidly easy to avoid. The only reason you get ganked is if you ****** up. But you go right down this path of false accusations, lies and misinformation, and not understanding game mechanics. Every nerf ganking thread has these elements at their centre, so why be different? You wot mate? I used to frequently deliberately get ganked, then slide into the gankers system and sit in port while they rage around me telling me to undock. I then preceeded with Psi Ops, chattering away about hot bois and how expensive it is to wash my lingerie while the rest of my squad zipped through the system. Violent knuckledragging types ingame and IRL have weak minds and are easy to manipulate, flood someones head with adrenalin and let their rage blind them. Allowing yourself to be ganked is just them taking the bait. I fail to see why that is a six asterisk up. Blood is freedom stained.

Do Little Virgin Plc Evictus. 1064	Posted - 2017.04.24 07:58:10 - [11] - Quote I am also a carebear industrialist. It's over 2 years since I last lost a ship in highsec. I ran a multibox mining fleet in Everyshore for 6 months with no problems. I haul billions through Uedama and Niarja every week. Gankers prey on the weak and the careless. If you factor them into the equation when you choose what, when and where to fly, New Eden is safer than most big cities in the real world. Being human, I expect to make mistakes and an occasional loss is built into my business plan. Ganking is an important part of the risk/reward balance - destruction means more demand for the stuff I make and risk means less competition. Learn how to survive as prey instead of asking CCP to remove the predators.
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:15:03 - [12] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: It is really annoying how easy suicide ganking is and that it has basically no consequences. Its basically a zero risk activity, the worst that can happen is that you do your math wrong and don't bring enough alts to destroy your target or you will be unlucky and you don't get any worthy loot (if the purpose of the sucide gank is to make a profit). I do not care that some players are multiboxing 10+ alts for sucide ganking. I don't care they all attack simultaneously. But I do not think its right that they can live in highsec with -9.9 security status thats just nonsense. My proposal: 1) Disallow notourious criminals from docking in citadel stations. Force them to require other players or alt or to raise their security status if they want to trade in highsec. If they want to hide they have to use an upwell structure. Following current sec status and high-sec faction police mechanics, -2.0 or lower? forget docking in Jita. -4.5 you won't be able to dock in Uedama. etc. Alternatively, "notorious criminal" = -5.0 and lower. 2) No rookie/noob ship for criminals. Player docking or respawning with criminal status should not get a free rookie ship in high-sec space stations. Force criminals to obtain frigate/shutle if they want to pull CONCORD from the gank point or to wait the criminal timer and then commit new criminal act before station to do it (and wait 15min more). (Obviously we cannot prevent them for keeping a home station in high-sec so they could respawn there...) This suggestion probably could use some modifications because its probably not a good idea not to give a ship replacement to the newbie player who somehow attacks someone else in highsec from curiosity/stupidity and become a criminal. Maybe it should apply to "notorious criminals" only. 3) No citadel immunity for notorious criminals and players with criminal status. Force them to be docked in citadel before gank. Not to stay outside pre-aligned already. This three changes will give high-sec residents higher controll over well known criminals who keep ganking every day. Unless they invest time or ISK to fix their security status they will be banned from stations leaving them the only option of player owned citadels. Citadel owners might decide they dont want to allow well known gankers to operate from their citadel so they ban them from there as well. Result - they will have to get their own citadel. This also can create a player oriented content about "allow gankers to use your citadel or we will wardec you" or "disallow gankers to use your citadel or we wardec you" etc. Holy crap.... I should start a Suicide Ganking Collection thread like I did with AFK cloaking...and then after ISD locks it an a year later they'll create a sticky for these shiptoasts. Look, suicide ganking is the fault of the pilot who is ganked. The large rewards are created by the terrible player who put way too much cargo value in his cargo hold. Yes. It is that simple. Stop overloading your freighter and you'll largely be fine. No. Really. Stop being bad and you'll be fine. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:31:06 - [13] - Quote Piugattuk wrote: I am a carebear, however I do agree that the consequences are rather nothing more then a feeble attempt by CCP to make it look like there is some teeth to a paper tiger, the addition of tags that people turn in to gain sec status...bah, there is nothing with teeth. That being said, there is no growth by the grazers if there is no reason to fear the predator, however the folks who are -9.9 and others are not really predators, they are bored e-warriors, but like all things there must be something for them to stroke themselves over, if you adjust you game play you mostly won't have any issues, if I was a -9.9 I would expect more teeth out of the cops, since its just the way it is now I have no need to play as a criminal because I don't have to learn to survive off the land and meet others because it's not challenging enough to explore the criminal world when you can just buy tags to get back in good with the cops, true criminals would live in the frontier bushwacking folks for survival, lazy gankers...they don't learn anything but rinse and repeat. You have it wrong. This is NOT an issue CCP should even be looking at, talking about, considering or anything else. The risk and reward are entirely based on player actions. A stupid idiotic player puts way too much cargo value into his ship and it is then blown up by suicide gankers. The solution is obvious: don't be a stupid idiotic player. You're welcome. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:33:46 - [14] - Quote Do Little wrote: I am also a carebear industrialist. It's over 2 years since I last lost a ship in highsec. I ran a multibox mining fleet in Everyshore for 6 months with no problems. I haul billions through Uedama and Niarja every week. Gankers prey on the weak and the careless. If you factor them into the equation when you choose what, when and where to fly, New Eden is safer than most big cities in the real world. Being human, I expect to make mistakes and an occasional loss is built into my business plan. Ganking is an important part of the risk/reward balance - destruction means more demand for the stuff I make and risk means less competition. Learn how to survive as prey instead of asking CCP to remove the predators. This man gets it. This man will beat the rest of you carebears every single time. In fact, he is NOT a carebear. He realizes the nature of this game and takes the necessary steps to maximize his chances for success. And as a result he is not here whining for CCP to pat his poo-poo. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Juss Karbuss Moosearmy Test Alliance Please Ignore 18	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:42:39 - [15] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: /snip But the point is. The risk/reward aspect of freighter ganking is due completely and totally to idiotic freighter pilots. Stop being idiotic and stop getting ganked. Edit II:L Sorry I used the word imprudent...that might cause some confusion among some of those who are upset by freighter ganking. Imprudent means you took a big chance and it is likely to blow up in your face. Another term for it could be stupid. Don't be stupid and don't get ganked. That is all true, but that all doesn't change the fact, that there is basically no risk involved for suicide gankers for so high rewards. Two completely different topics.
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1191	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:45:48 - [16] - Quote Other than the bumping part I completely agree. Getting Bumped, especially for extended periods of time, should either count as aggression or not affect warping. Getting caught and killed is EVE working as intended. Yes, it happens because it's easy and because the consequences are things that people that play that way don't care about. You make it even easier when you load lots of value into your ship and decide to make it easier to kill and then go without escort.
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:47:42 - [17] - Quote Juss Karbuss wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: /snip But the point is. The risk/reward aspect of freighter ganking is due completely and totally to idiotic freighter pilots. Stop being idiotic and stop getting ganked. Edit II:L Sorry I used the word imprudent...that might cause some confusion among some of those who are upset by freighter ganking. Imprudent means you took a big chance and it is likely to blow up in your face. Another term for it could be stupid. Don't be stupid and don't get ganked. That is all true, but that all doesn't change the fact, that there is basically no risk involved for suicide gankers for so high rewards. Two completely different topics. Of course there is no substantial risk because of the idiotic freighter pilot. He created the disproportionate reward for the given risk. If he weren't an idiot, there'd be now discussion right now. None. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:51:56 - [18] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Other than the bumping part I completely agree. Getting Bumped, especially for extended periods of time, should either count as aggression or not affect warping. Getting caught and killed is EVE working as intended. Yes, it happens because it's easy and because the consequences are things that people that play that way don't care about. You make it even easier when you load lots of value into your ship and decide to make it easier to kill and then go without escort. You only get bumped if you are a complete and total idiot. If you put 750 million ISK of cargo value in your charon with reinforced bulkheads guess what: YOU WON'T GET GODDAMNED BUMPED. Or if you do, just log off. They won't gank you they are hoping to ransom you. But with 750 million ISK in cargo value, at most 375 million can drop. Given that the gankers will need about 500 million to gank you...it is not an economically viable gank. Or let me put it this way: If you are getting bumped you likely made a number of dumb moves and deserve what is coming. Bottomline: Don't be dumb and you'll be fine. Good rule for life in general too. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 08:57:28 - [19] - Quote To be clear here.... Risk is not something imposed by CCP. Risk is imposed by other players. Yes. Risk is imposed by other players. If you screw up, other players may be ready to pounce and push in your poop. Jump instead of bridge....that is on you. You screwed up. But deadspace mods on your CNR and get ganked, you were dumb and created a situation ripe for a suicide gank. Put 6.8 billion ISK into your obelisk? Yeah, you just created a gank opportunity. In fact, putting 6.8 billion ISK into your freigher says the following, "I love risk. I love it and I find it exciting and thrilling!!!" When you get ganked after doing this a few times...WITF are you here on the forums complaining? You got what you asked for. Be prudent. Be smart. And you won't get bumped and you won't get suicide ganked.* Aside from getting ganked for **** and giggles. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1191	Posted - 2017.04.24 09:06:20 - [20] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Mike Voidstar wrote: Other than the bumping part I completely agree. Getting Bumped, especially for extended periods of time, should either count as aggression or not affect warping. Getting caught and killed is EVE working as intended. Yes, it happens because it's easy and because the consequences are things that people that play that way don't care about. You make it even easier when you load lots of value into your ship and decide to make it easier to kill and then go without escort. You only get bumped if you are a complete and total idiot. If you put 750 million ISK of cargo value in your charon with reinforced bulkheads guess what: YOU WON'T GET GODDAMNED BUMPED. Or if you do, just log off. They won't gank you they are hoping to ransom you. But with 750 million ISK in cargo value, at most 375 million can drop. Given that the gankers will need about 500 million to gank you...it is not an economically viable gank. Or let me put it this way: If you are getting bumped you likely made a number of dumb moves and deserve what is coming. Bottomline: Don't be dumb and you'll be fine. Good rule for life in general too. Edit: Oh and if that 750 million is in one stack or one freight can...guess what either it will all drop or none at all. Want to increase the risk for suicide gankers, create courier contracts with a cheap alt. There are plenty of suicide ganks where the item did not drop--i.e. the gankers got nothing and lost their ships. Eh, you still might get bumped even with an empty cargohold. You know this. It's less likely, but it happens. Regardless, the only reason you are getting bumped instead of disrupted or scrambled is because those things would trigger Concord. It's stupid that it effects warping, more stupid that it's allowed to circumvent the rules of hisec. Kill them if you want, but do it in a way consistent with the rules. 'Emergent' isn't synonymous with 'Good'. But that's really a digression from the main point, which indeed was don't be an idiot about how you move valuable cargo around and then be upset that you got caught and killed.

Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6416	Posted - 2017.04.24 09:11:28 - [21] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: Eh, you still might get bumped even with an empty cargohold. You know this. It's less likely, but it happens. Regardless, the only reason you are getting bumped instead of disrupted or scrambled is because those things would trigger Concord. It's stupid that it effects warping, more stupid that it's allowed to circumvent the rules of hisec. Kill them if you want, but do it in a way consistent with the rules. 'Emergent' isn't synonymous with 'Good'. But that's really a digression from the main point, which indeed was don't be an idiot about how you move valuable cargo around and then be upset that you got caught and killed. Yes, I know because it happened to one of my alts who can fly a freighter. I logged off. Came back 15 minutes later and logged in to a fully intact freighter. It was empty and ganking it would have gotten them nothing. It was opportunistic bumping hoping for a sucker to payout a ransom. People who suicide gank freighters tend to be profit oriented. No profit they don't gank....so logoff. You might lose that (empty) freighter, but probably not. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1191	Posted - 2017.04.24 09:18:16 - [22] - Quote Yeah, I've been caught and let go too, except in t1 battleships fit with t2 mods doing missions. Sometimes that happens. I've come back both with and without a ship, and even a few times woke up wet in station because EVE is the only game specifically designed so that you can be killed twice just for spite in any given fight. If I didn't have piles of implants in that station it would be really annoying.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47651	Posted - 2017.04.24 09:37:47 - [23] - Quote Merin Ryskin wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: You could always siege the citadels if you aren't happy about people using it. But that would require taking responsibility for their own safety, instead of removing all risk from highsec! I don't think I've ever read a post of yours I didn't like. It's like you write stuff just so I can nod my head, yep.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries 351	Posted - 2017.04.24 09:53:23 - [24] - Quote Mike Voidstar wrote: and even a few times woke up wet in station because EVE is the only game specifically designed so that you can be killed twice just for spite in any given fight. If I didn't have piles of implants in that station it would be really annoying. Alternatively, instead of looking at it as being killed twice in the same fight, you should look at it as being killed once with the opportunity to, if you have quick reflexes, save some of your equipment by escaping with your pod intact. And spite is a perfectly valid reason to kill something, as is harvesting the tears from people who lose expensive implants.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3889	Posted - 2017.04.24 10:32:44 - [25] - Quote Juss Karbuss wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: /snip But the point is. The risk/reward aspect of freighter ganking is due completely and totally to idiotic freighter pilots. Stop being idiotic and stop getting ganked. Edit II:L Sorry I used the word imprudent...that might cause some confusion among some of those who are upset by freighter ganking. Imprudent means you took a big chance and it is likely to blow up in your face. Another term for it could be stupid. Don't be stupid and don't get ganked. That is all true, but that all doesn't change the fact, that there is basically no risk involved for suicide gankers for so high rewards. Two completely different topics. Yes ganking carries risk. Whether you like it or not. Any thread that begins with 'ganking has no risk' is a non-starter. Answer this very simple question: Who sets the rewards for gankers? EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 3378	Posted - 2017.04.24 11:05:31 - [26] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: It is really annoying how easy suicide ganking is and that it has basically no consequences. Its basically a zero risk activity, the worst that can happen is that you do your math wrong and don't bring enough alts to destroy your target or you will be unlucky and you don't get any worthy loot (if the purpose of the sucide gank is to make a profit). Of course this is not true at all. Highsec criminals suffer pretty much all the consequences, and they are so harsh that basically no one but career criminals even think of shooting another player in highsec illegally. The 'outlaw' character can do nothing in highsec but move about in fast-aligning ships, loses any PvP engagement within seconds if you just get a point on them thanks to infallible NPCs, and is forced to pay a cost to even attempt to attack another player in the form of their ship. Vokan Narkar wrote: 1) Disallow notourious criminals from docking in citadel stations. Force them to require other players or alt or to raise their security status if they want to trade in highsec. If they want to hide they have to use an upwell structure... 2) No rookie/noob ship for criminals. Player docking or respawning with criminal status should not get a free rookie ship in high-sec space stations. Gankers operated perfectly well in systems with no stations (like Niarja) before Upwell structures and would again. Yet this would have significant and perhaps game-breaking effects on newer players who trash their security status in highsec or lowsec shooting other players as is one of the main intended activities in this game. I don't think many players would take to kindly to joining up to Faction Warfare for a week or two, shooting a few too many neutrals and being locked out of their stuff like their missioning or mining ships they left in highsec. Both ideas do very little to organized ganking operations and yet have serious downsides for newer/solo/inexperienced players. I do think the idea of pirate hideaways is conceptionally a badass one, but it would require more thought and changes than this. Vokan Narkar wrote: 3) No citadel immunity for notorious criminals and players with criminal status. Force them to be docked in citadel before gank. Not to stay outside pre-aligned already. One of the design goals of Upwell structures was to provide 'feature parity' with the outgoing POSes. The tethering mechanic gives the same sort of in-space protection that the POS force field did. Criminals (and everyone else) have nothing new that they didn't have already with POSes in the tethering mechanic and I see no reason why certain players should lose intended functionality from the structures just because another player wants to shoot them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander and if haulers get to align safely next to an Upwell structure then so should those trying to shoot haulers. Anything else just smacks of asking the builders of the sandbox to tilt the game in your favour. More importantly, if criminals are using an Upwell structure to stage out of and you object, CCP has kindly given you a mechanism to impose your will on them: wardec and explode that structure. There is no problem here that you can't already fix yourself. So in short, -1. These ideas largely do nothing to open windows of player interaction (or are just plain unfair), and just pile more NPC enforced consequences on criminals that would impact disproportionately on players other than highsec ganking operations. I am all for a re-imagining of how highsec crime works to something that increases player agency and interaction, but more tedious "consequences" that give haulers even less reason to pay attention and hurt non-gankers in the process is not that. Just pay attention and haul/mine/whatever safely like so many other players have figured out already. It isn't rocket science to be almost perfectly safe in highsec with all the protections the game already affords you. You have all the cards in highsec so only complete inattention or multiple errors will result in ship loss, and following the 'Golden Rule' not to undock in what you can't afford to lose mitigates even that. All it requires is a little game knowledge and some effort. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 11	Posted - 2017.04.24 16:39:36 - [27] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Don't be stupid and don't get ganked. HOLY CRAP!!! This is not about me getting suicide ganked and crying over forums LOL. Check my char, check my corp you see I lost nothing to suicide ganker about a half a year. I learned how to avoid them - after all they seek only weak and clueless as was said and thats fine and that is not my concern here. I actually became occassional suicide ganker using alt character so it doesn't hurt my bussiness over there. Its ** easy and there are absolutely no risks. Especially if you do not do it for profit but for lulz. Stop posting your nonsenses all of you sucide gankers. This is not a thread about removing highsec ganking from the game - none of my suggestions will do that. My suggestions only cause a major annoyance to gankers who ABUSE the mechanics and live in highsec with -9.9 security status. Thats not how this should work. Clone soldier tags were created for a reason. If you want to live in highsec without restrictions then you need to fix your security status with tags. Right now what? Even with -9.9 you can dock in any station on highsec and hide or trade. You are not being shot by sentry/concord, only by faction police that cannot hurt you if you travel through warp to zero. Using fast to warp ship nobody will catch you in highsec either and unlike lowsec, the chance there is someone waiting with instalock in pretty much zero. I fly through highsec with suspect all the time. Even if someone actually catch me at gate with dis my ship is fast enough to jump back to gate or to fly from range and continue. Tornado gankers in highsec doesn't care about criminals/suspects either - they wait for wealthy indy to oneshot him and they usually camp only till 1j from tradehubs. Killrights do not affect them in slightest - they are -9.9 anyone can shoot them without need to activate it anyway. And they do not get shoot at until they arive on the grid to kill the prey they seeked. The only thing they can't do in highsec is to rat or do missions. Which is laughable as ratting in highsec doesn't provide good profit anyway and l4 missions are everywhere not in highsec. That is - if they were actually doing them. But they do not. They are (mostly) alts to remove any consequences or risks. So tell me, what do suicide gankers risks? You know you lose your ship so you use the cheapest and strongests options - thats not a risk. Security status loss doesn't affect you either - you gank with alt unconnected to your real operations so you are fine with that and it doesn't bother you. Also it can't be worse than -9.9 and the consequences are all the same and laughable. You can't be shot at when tethered (or docked) pre-gank. If there are multiple anti-gankers sitting in gate1 with blackbirds, all you need to do is to move your activity to gate2. You dictate where the gank happens, not them. You use a neutral alts to scan ships on the route. You use neutral alts to warp-to the target to zero range. You use neutral alts to bump the freighter. You use neutral alts to pick up the loot. Again - no risks there, you are avoiding any risks of this activity via alts. I do not mind this is a game of alts and this is not my concern anyway. So? are you actually risk anything other than your target will survive? Can you answer me this? And - assume my suggestions will get in effect. It still won't force you to fix your status. You can stay docked in citadel of yours (or rather your neutral alt as always to avoid risks right). Then undock and fly to gate and gank. Then you can self-destruct your capsule or get destroyed to respawn in npc station and buy a shuttle, undock and pull off concord like you do now. If you need to hide you can hide at citadel. If you will want to avoid buying clone soldier tags then you will still be able to, it will just be * annoying to do it.
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6418	Posted - 2017.04.24 17:18:08 - [28] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Don't be stupid and don't get ganked. HOLY CRAP!!! This is not about me getting suicide ganked and crying over forums LOL. Check my char, check my corp you see I lost nothing to suicide ganker about a half a year. I learned how to avoid them - after all they seek only weak and clueless as was said and thats fine and that is not my concern here. [snip] are you actually risk anything other than your target will survive? Look, this is a tiresome and boring topic at this point. People complain about how easy it is to gank. It is GÇ£easyGÇ¥ if you know what you are doing. But people only do it because the other side presents the opportunity. If you are blind jumping a super capital to cyno beacons you are presenting an opportunity where you will likely die and quite possibly it will be very GÇ£easyGÇ¥ for those doing it. Once a player has serially screwed up killing him is going to usually be GÇ£easyGÇ¥. It is GÇ£easyGÇ¥ because that fool made it easy. So stop making it easy. That is my point. And no you clearly do not think it is fine that suicide ganking is GÇ£fineGÇ¥ otherwise you would not be suggesting a nerf and an indirect buff to being stupid. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3893	Posted - 2017.04.24 17:41:35 - [29] - Quote Even says its easy to avoid ganking and that he hasn't been ganked in half a year. But still proposes ganking should be nerfed. Carebear logic. Whining about how gankers are alts. No ****. Ganking has been nerfed such that any character that does it is unusable except for more ganking. Still thinks ganking needs more nerfs. Carebear logic. Still doesn't know what risk is either. Anti-ganking thread 101. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Sitting Bull Lakota Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective 298	Posted - 2017.04.24 17:45:44 - [30] - Quote I'd consider accepting docking restrictions now that we have citadels, but not without a trade. I'd be willing to support restricted docking for criminals if and only if faction police and customs ships stopped attacking ctiminals. The creep towards a safer highsec must be stopped.

Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 11	Posted - 2017.04.24 17:48:37 - [31] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: And no you clearly do not think it is fine that suicide ganking is GÇ£fineGÇ¥ otherwise you would not be suggesting a nerf and an indirect buff to being stupid. I do not think it is fine to basically live in high-sec with -9.9 security status. It makes no sense that the empire/system/npcs call it whatever allows you do use all their features completely ignoring the fact you have heavy criminal. Btw neither you nor Daichi Yamato did answer my question. Nevermind. I know how these forums works and who posts here. You will protect your own agenda for all costs no matter if someone actually have a point or not. Logic nor common sense doesn't apply here. I have another way to prove my point. Didn't want to go that route but if thats the way CPP can notice something isn't alright then so be it. Now I am done talking here it leads no nowhere - you are not even willing to read what I wrote. Now I go ingame and make a plan B.
Cade Windstalker 1434	Posted - 2017.04.24 18:16:17 - [32] - Quote OP, Citadel access and usage restrictions are set by the Citadel owners not by CCP. Also anyone with a -10 status doesn't need to use a rookie ship to move around, pods warp instantly and are functionally uncatchable in High Sec. Most active gankers with -10 sec status never have to enter a rookie ship, ever. If you think ganking is too easy go camp one of the major ganking hotspots and mess with the gankers and make it harder for them.
Daichi Yamato Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass 3893	Posted - 2017.04.24 20:42:18 - [33] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: And no you clearly do not think it is fine that suicide ganking is GÇ£fineGÇ¥ otherwise you would not be suggesting a nerf and an indirect buff to being stupid. I do not think it is fine to basically live in high-sec with -9.9 security status. It makes no sense that the empire/system/npcs call it whatever allows you do use all their features completely ignoring the fact you have heavy criminal. Btw neither you nor Daichi Yamato did answer my question. Nevermind. I know how these forums works and who posts here. You will protect your own agenda for all costs no matter if someone actually have a point or not. Logic nor common sense doesn't apply here. I have another way to prove my point. Didn't want to go that route but if thats the way CPP can notice something isn't alright then so be it. Now I am done talking here it leads no nowhere - you are not even willing to read what I wrote. Now I go ingame and make a plan B. let me pretend im taking the higher ground even though i didn't address half the concerns in this thread, didn't argue my idea, lied to push my agenda and belittle anyone who challenges my idea. Instead I'll hint that there is an in game way to attack ganking. Hopefully no one will notice that this was the case all along and this thread was completely needless. Let me know when you plan to deviate from every anti-ganking thread ever. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Sarah Flynt Flynt Enterprises Silent Infinity 286	Posted - 2017.04.24 20:46:08 - [34] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: The tethering mechanic gives the same sort of in-space protection that the POS force field did. Criminals (and everyone else) have nothing new that they didn't have already with POSes in the tethering mechanic That's of course complete nonsense and you know that. You'll get shredded by the faction police if you sit in your ship under a POS forcefield as -10. They shoot right through the forcefield. You're perfectly safe from them however while tethered to a Citadel. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6418	Posted - 2017.04.24 22:31:09 - [35] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: And no you clearly do not think it is fine that suicide ganking is GÇ£fineGÇ¥ otherwise you would not be suggesting a nerf and an indirect buff to being stupid. I do not think it is fine to basically live in high-sec with -9.9 security status. It makes no sense that the empire/system/npcs call it whatever allows you do use all their features completely ignoring the fact you have heavy criminal. Btw neither you nor Daichi Yamato did answer my question. Nevermind. I know how these forums works and who posts here. You will protect your own agenda for all costs no matter if someone actually have a point or not. Logic nor common sense doesn't apply here. I have another way to prove my point. Didn't want to go that route but if thats the way CPP can notice something isn't alright then so be it. Now I am done talking here it leads no nowhere - you are not even willing to read what I wrote. Now I go ingame and make a plan B. I didn't answer your question because I find it irrelevant. The whole concept of suicide ganking would not exist if players using freighters were prudent and reasonable. The problem is not suicide gankers in anyway whatsoever, but is a function of the players using freighters. They may really bad decisions and as a result create the entire issue because of their own imprudence. How is this CCP's problem? If some player is an idiot...how do you expect CCP to address it via a patch? And why are you nerfing a symptom of the "problem" and not the "problem" itself? "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6418	Posted - 2017.04.24 22:33:57 - [36] - Quote Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: I'd consider accepting docking restrictions now that we have citadels, but not without a trade. I'd be willing to support restricted docking for criminals if and only if faction police and customs ships stopped attacking ctiminals. The creep towards a safer highsec must be stopped. And what about the market? And if you say, "That's what alt's are for," then it is a bad idea automatically. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 11	Posted - 2017.04.24 22:58:05 - [37] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Sitting Bull Lakota wrote: I'd consider accepting docking restrictions now that we have citadels, but not without a trade. I'd be willing to support restricted docking for criminals if and only if faction police and customs ships stopped attacking ctiminals. The creep towards a safer highsec must be stopped. And what about the market? And if you say, "That's what alt's are for," then it is a bad idea automatically. Just to clarify - I did not suggested to restrict the ability to buy/sell in high-sec. How would that be done anyway? And there is no need to. When criminals won't be able to dock in high-sec they would have to choose if they: - fix their sec status to get the items from Jita 4-4 - use public courier contract to move them from 4-4 to citadel where is criminal allowed to dock or lowsec - contract the items on alt/friend/etc who will move them from 4-4 to citadel or lowsec again EDIT (similar wise if they want to sell something - once its in station they can sell it remotedly So either more annoyance if the criminal wants to do that alone using alts. Or more content if he choose to use the other options. Also - since there is no way to prevent criminals to have a home station in high-sec they should be allowed to buy ship and stuff in case they appear there after losing clone or jump there.
Lothros Andastar Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation 250	Posted - 2017.04.24 23:43:00 - [38] - Quote Show me on the doll where the mean gankers touched you.
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 12	Posted - 2017.04.25 05:26:27 - [39] - Quote Lothros Andastar wrote: Show me on the doll where the mean gankers touched you. here
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 3381	Posted - 2017.04.25 08:12:13 - [40] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Black Pedro wrote: The tethering mechanic gives the same sort of in-space protection that the POS force field did. Criminals (and everyone else) have nothing new that they didn't have already with POSes in the tethering mechanic That's of course complete nonsense and you know that. You'll get shredded by the faction police if you sit in your ship under a POS forcefield as -10. They shoot right through the forcefield. You're perfectly safe from them however while tethered to a Citadel. Thanks for the clarification. I was referring to the player-player interactions that the OP says he wants to encourage. POS force fields, like tethering, provide protection for all players, regardless of security status, to the other players while they are in space. Some NPC do in fact behave differently as you point out. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?

Jubilum DUST Expeditionary Team Good Sax 4	Posted - 2017.04.25 11:17:07 - [41] - Quote I totally agree with the OP. Consequences for suicide ganking need to be much higher. I'm am in no way suggestion to eliminate ganking, but there needs to be a real punishment for doing it, besides loss of a cheap ship, and a hit to sec. status. I would suggest that anyone who ganks an unarmed ship in high sec. not only loose their ship to Concord but also their pod. And then be issued a "timeout" for 15 minutes as a base. The length of the "timeout" would be longer based on how low the gankers Sec. status is upto 1 hours. While you are in "timeout" you can not undock. Also while the ganker(s) are in "timeout" anyone besides the original owner who tries to loot the wreck will also have their ship destoryed be Concord. After the "timeout" is over the wreck becomes available to anyone. This part is to simply to discourage the ganker from using an alt to scoop the dropped loot. Hence the punishment. This simple change would cause gankers to think before acting "Do I really want to be stuck in a station for the next hour"? Or is there something much more constructive I could be doing with my play time. If the answer is no, then by all means go for it, I will support your action.
Scipio Artelius The Vendunari End of Life 47657	Posted - 2017.04.25 11:31:14 - [42] - Quote Jubilum wrote: I totally agree with the OP. Consequences for suicide ganking need to be much higher. I'm am in no way suggestion to eliminate ganking, but there needs to be a real punishment for doing it, besides loss of a cheap ship, and a hit to sec. status. I would suggest that anyone who ganks an unarmed ship in high sec. not only loose their ship to Concord but also their pod. And then be issued a "timeout" for 15 minutes as a base. The length of the "timeout" would be longer based on how low the gankers Sec. status is upto 1 hours. While you are in "timeout" you can not undock. Also while the ganker(s) are in "timeout" anyone besides the original owner who tries to loot the wreck will also have their ship destoryed be Concord. After the "timeout" is over the wreck becomes available to anyone. This part is to simply to discourage the ganker from using an alt to scoop the dropped loot. Hence the punishment. This simple change would cause gankers to think before acting "Do I really want to be stuck in a station for the next hour"? Or is there something much more constructive I could be doing with my play time. If the answer is no, then by all means go for it, I will support your action. They already receive a 15 minute timeout. You can't board a ship in space or undock in a ship while criminal. If you do, you are CONCORDEd again. You have to wait for the crime watch flag to expire, which is 15 minutes. Losing a pod would be nothing. No implants, instadock again. Means nothing.
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 12	Posted - 2017.04.25 12:19:02 - [43] - Quote Jubilum wrote: I totally agree with the OP. Consequences for suicide ganking need to be much higher. I'm am in no way suggestion to eliminate ganking, but there needs to be a real punishment for doing it, besides loss of a cheap ship, and a hit to sec. status. Their pods are empty and we do not lose skillpoints now for losing pod so that would not mean much. Possibly, there could be a small timer before criminal be allowed to warp his pod so there would be a chance to catch his pod and get at least some kind of satisfaction but thats it. As for timer, there is already one and thats 15 minutes. For this time undocking with ship will lead to losing it again. I don't think the timer needs to be increased. Ganking is a legit gameplay and those who want to do it shouldn't be forced to wait one full hour before being able to play further. Also it can be workarounded by alts anyway (and its already happening) so it has no sense.
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2579	Posted - 2017.04.25 13:00:26 - [44] - Quote Whenever a flashy red pilot enters HS the flashing should be accompanied by a loud piercing beep beep beep. That way players that could care less about flashy red characters would now be annoyed..... dare I say angered at their presence. All of New Eden would quickly come to HATE flashy beepy characters and hunt them to extinction. The flashy beepy player would also have to listen to his constant beeping and come to HATE himself even more than he currently does. Those not hunted to extinction would quit due to a deep sense of self loathing. Beeping would be a simple coding addition to the game requiring minimal effort by the dev team to incorporate. The beeping would be produced by the motherboard itself (as happens with motherboard faults) and could not be muted in any way shape or form.
Cade Windstalker 1442	Posted - 2017.04.25 13:17:43 - [45] - Quote Jubilum wrote: I totally agree with the OP. Consequences for suicide ganking need to be much higher. I'm am in no way suggestion to eliminate ganking, but there needs to be a real punishment for doing it, besides loss of a cheap ship, and a hit to sec. status. I would suggest that anyone who ganks an unarmed ship in high sec. not only loose their ship to Concord but also their pod. And then be issued a "timeout" for 15 minutes as a base. The length of the "timeout" would be longer based on how low the gankers Sec. status is upto 1 hours. While you are in "timeout" you can not undock. Also while the ganker(s) are in "timeout" anyone besides the original owner who tries to loot the wreck will also have their ship destoryed be Concord. After the "timeout" is over the wreck becomes available to anyone. This part is to simply to discourage the ganker from using an alt to scoop the dropped loot. Hence the punishment. This simple change would cause gankers to think before acting "Do I really want to be stuck in a station for the next hour"? Or is there something much more constructive I could be doing with my play time. If the answer is no, then by all means go for it, I will support your action. The consequences for Suicide Ganking are fine. It's a part of the game not something to be put down with a hammer. The reason it feels like there are no consequences for it is because people do dumb things with their ships like put all their eggs in one basket, use autopilot with an untanked ship, don't use things like gatecheck, and generally play badly and then complain that someone took advantage of their bad play. Losing a pod in a gank is basically a non-issue. Check the Uedama or Niarja kill boards sometime, there are tons of known ganker pods on there, popped by other players. They're always empty clones and they always have their clone set to the local station. There's already a 'timeout', as pointed out by someone else. Extending it isn't needed or warranted, it just encourages either rolling more alts or not playing the game for that hour, neither of which is particularly good for the game as a whole. If you think ganking is too easy or too prevalent that's probably because you don't understand the mechanics behind it or how to avoid being ganked.
Carnivorous Swarm New Eden Department of Sanitation 11	Posted - 2017.04.25 14:56:01 - [46] - Quote Ganking is easy with no consequences? I urge anyone who really believes that to try to pull off twenty pod ganks. I doubt they'd be able to succeed in half. Ganking requires logistics beyond standard high sec play: warp-ins, scan alts, and stocking of equipment. Ganks don't happen by chance, they're deliberate and focused. Ganking either requires luck or a lot of scouts because you are an easy target. Anti-gankers, KB whoring mercs, and randoms can and do shoot at you all the time. It only takes an Alpha ECM frigate to stop 1 to 3 gankers in destroyers. The ganker is effectively neutered from all other high sec play. The SP is stuck on that character. Yeah, you can buy tags, but then you'll still likely have a ton of killrights against you for the next month. The only other pilot in the entire game with the same level of restrictions is a pod-killing low sec pirate. The gankers that "make it look easy" are experts or FC'd by expects of the playstyle. It still takes considerable effort to succeed, much more than running missions or freighter hauling (all three which I've done extensively in my Eve career). Most importantly, it takes little effort to become an unattractive gank target. So little that I do not understand how a player can be in a universe filled with other people and either 1) not know ganking exists by the time they can pilot a freighter, or 2) are unwilling to do anything to protect their one billion+ ISK investment.
Tragot Gomndor Khanid's Damnation 86	Posted - 2017.04.25 15:49:55 - [47] - Quote Best way to fix ganking? Delete autopilot... See i fixed ganking... NONONONONONO TO CAPS IN HIGHSEC NO
Vic Jefferson Brand Newbros Test Alliance Please Ignore 1237	Posted - 2017.04.25 16:40:44 - [48] - Quote Vokan NarkarIts wrote: basically a zero risk activity. Nonsense. They risk not finding targets. If you get ganked in HiSec, you are willfully negligent - 99.99% of losses in hisec are preventable with even a casual interest in one's own safety. Players could collectively make ganking a zero reward activity with a modest amount of effort, but choose not to. The way you beat the gankers is by not being ganked and wasting their time. Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Jonah Gravenstein Machiavellian Space Bastards 28166	Posted - 2017.04.25 20:15:08 - [49] - Quote If you think that suicide ganking is a risk free activity, why aren't you out there creating risk for them? Be the change you wish to see in Eve. As yet another hisec industrialist I shall echo the sentiments of my peers. Don't be f'king stupid and the risk of getting ganked drops to the extent that it may as well not exist. In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded. New Player FAQ Feyd's Survival Pack
Gerald Mardiska Comms Black Initiative Mercenaries 37	Posted - 2017.04.26 02:02:52 - [50] - Quote Ooh look another hisec dweller whining about game mechanics.

Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6421	Posted - 2017.04.26 04:15:51 - [51] - Quote To try an kill this thread.... Most suicide ganks are not for ***** and giggles. Most are for profit. Thus the whole risk vs. reward discussion is literally not a CCP problem. At all. The reward is created by the player who overloads his freighter. Further, by overloading his freighter the player has taken on considerable risk. This does NOT have to be matched by risk on the side of suicide ganking. To think this is a stilted and childish view of balance. If I act like an idiot in game I should suffer the consequences of being an idiot. To insist that the player(s) who are imposing consequences on me for my idiocy face that same level of risk as I do even though he (they) are not acting idiotic is itself idiotic. This kind of symmetry is just plain old vanilla stupid and only people who do not understand risk would make it. The risk suicide gankers face is not an issue at all, let alone for CCP. The reward that suicide gankers receive is not an issue at all, let alone CCP. The solution to this problem is completely and fully in the hands of the players. Do not overload your freighter and you most likely be safe aside from the lulz gank. In fact, if players using freighters tanked their freighters and kept the cargo value well below the replacement value of a gank fleet over time they might even be able to use autopilot again. But fortunately for suicide gankers there is no shortage or idiotic freighter pilots. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sarah Flynt Flynt Enterprises Silent Infinity 287	Posted - 2017.04.26 04:49:22 - [52] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: To try an kill this thread.... So, business as usual for you Teckos Pech wrote: Most suicide ganks are not for ***** and giggles. Most are for profit. Citation please Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6421	Posted - 2017.04.26 05:07:54 - [53] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: To try an kill this thread.... So, business as usual for you Teckos Pech wrote: Most suicide ganks are not for ***** and giggles. Most are for profit. Citation please Yes, business as usual as it is not a balance issue. As for a "citation" goo check the killboards for freighters, finding an empty freighter* killed in HS the exception not the rule. And yes I have done this and generally an empty freighter is rarely ganked. *By empty I mean empty, not something with a double wrapped courier contract. Those will get ganked based on the idea that if it is double wrapped it is likely valuable otherwise why double wrap it. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sarah Flynt Flynt Enterprises Silent Infinity 287	Posted - 2017.04.26 05:25:07 - [54] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: To try an kill this thread.... So, business as usual for you Teckos Pech wrote: Most suicide ganks are not for ***** and giggles. Most are for profit. Citation please Yes, business as usual as it is not a balance issue. As for a "citation" goo check the killboards for freighters, finding an empty freighter* killed in HS the exception not the rule. And yes I have done this and generally an empty freighter is rarely ganked. By empty I mean empty, not something with a double wrapped courier contract. Those will get ganked based on the idea that if it is double wrapped it is likely valuable otherwise why double wrap it. This thread isn't about freighter ganking specifically even though you try to make it about it. It's about meaningful consequences for gankers in general or the lack thereof. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking* and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6421	Posted - 2017.04.26 05:34:55 - [55] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: To try an kill this thread.... So, business as usual for you Teckos Pech wrote: Most suicide ganks are not for ***** and giggles. Most are for profit. Citation please Yes, business as usual as it is not a balance issue. As for a "citation" goo check the killboards for freighters, finding an empty freighter* killed in HS the exception not the rule. And yes I have done this and generally an empty freighter is rarely ganked. By empty I mean empty, not something with a double wrapped courier contract. Those will get ganked based on the idea that if it is double wrapped it is likely valuable otherwise why double wrap it. This thread isn't about freighter ganking specifically even though you try to make it about it. It's about meaningful consequences for gankers in general or the lack thereof. Ganking mining ships is a subsidized activity. Players gank blockade runners to play the numbers, again for profit. Other ganking is just for **** and giggles and not common. To see this suicide ganking of new players (15 days old or less) happens to about 1% of new players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Sarah Flynt Flynt Enterprises Silent Infinity 287	Posted - 2017.04.26 05:58:14 - [56] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Ganking mining ships is a subsidized activity. Players gank blockade runners to play the numbers, again for profit. Other ganking is just for *** and giggles and not common. To see this suicide ganking of new players (15 days old or less) happens to about 1% of new players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y Which, yet again, has nothing to do with what this thread is about. Let me quote the relevant part of the OP again as you seem to have trouble finding it: Vokan Narkar wrote: I do not care that some players are multiboxing 10+ alts for sucide ganking. I don't care they all attack simultaneously. But I do not think its right that they can live** in highsec with -9.9 security status thats just nonsense. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6422	Posted - 2017.04.26 06:01:14 - [57] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Ganking mining ships is a subsidized activity. Players gank blockade runners to play the numbers, again for profit. Other ganking is just for *** and giggles and not common. To see this suicide ganking of new players (15 days old or less) happens to about 1% of new players. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A92Ge2S8M1Y Which, yet again, has nothing to do with what this thread is about. Let me quote the relevant part of the OP again as you seem to have trouble finding it: Vokan Narkar wrote: I do not care that some players are multiboxing 10+ alts for sucide ganking. I don't care they all attack simultaneously. But I do not think its right that they can live** in highsec with -9.9 security status thats just nonsense. Then why did he mention suicide ganking and why does he want it nerfed...as per his own words? There is no problem with ganking and there is no problem with criminals accessing HS. Everything working as intended. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 3384	Posted - 2017.04.26 06:30:25 - [58] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Then why did he mention suicide ganking and why does he want it nerfed...as per his own words? There is no problem with ganking and there is no problem with criminals accessing HS. Everything working as intended. Indeed. CCP has spent a lot of time building CrimeWatch to allow criminals and potential marks, and criminals and vigilantes to interact in highsec. CONCORD provides a cost/financianl disincentive to wanton aggression and is balanced such that "normal" ships doing normal things are unprofitable targets for a pirate as the game is intended to work. Players have options though, and some ships, like a Covetor are much more squishy but come with income benefits, while some ships, like tanked DSTs or Skiffs are so tough to crack you have to have to provided a large amount of motivation to get someone to pay the hundreds of millions of ISK in ships it costs to try to explode it. I don't see an issue here. Criminals/pirates are an intended part of the game, and there is a wide range of choice for players of ships, almost all of them are unprofitable, some very unprofitable, to shoot in highsec making it impossible to pirate profitably unless a player makes a mistake or intentionally chooses to undock with too much value in their ship, either fit or as cargo. I don't see why this is an issue, or why CCP should try to keep criminals and non-criminals apart in a game built on player interaction, and where the players are suppose to serve as the primary source of risk for imprudence or intentionally risky choices. Sure, I am sure the game can be improved and more opportunity for play and counter play created between the various players in the criminal highsec dance, but the ideas in the OP don't do that. The bottom line is that criminals are suppose to exist, you are intended to be at risk to them, and they are made at risk to everyone else. Any idea to change the criminal game better keep all of these ideas in mind when proposing a change, and ideas for changes citing the reason that it is a problem to repeatedly commit criminal acts in highsec misses the fundamental basis of the game design. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Sarah Flynt Flynt Enterprises Silent Infinity 287	Posted - 2017.04.26 06:33:35 - [59] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Then why did he mention suicide ganking and why does he want it nerfed...as per his own words? There is no problem with ganking and there is no problem with criminals accessing HS. Everything working as intended. Because usually those -10's who live in lowsec, the only place where you can gain that sec status otherwise, don't run around in highsec serial ganking nonstop (they live in lowsec after all). He is questioning that very intention that you speak so highly of and the current status quo, that -10 gankers only have laughable consequences that are easily evaded. He has every right to discuss this in this forum section, as he makes a proposal for changes, even if you think that his opinion is wrong and that this thread should be "killed" - to use your own words. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6423	Posted - 2017.04.26 06:51:15 - [60] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Then why did he mention suicide ganking and why does he want it nerfed...as per his own words? There is no problem with ganking and there is no problem with criminals accessing HS. Everything working as intended. Because usually those -10's who live in lowsec, the only place where you can gain that sec status otherwise, don't run around in highsec serial ganking nonstop (they live in lowsec after all). He is questioning that very intention that you speak so highly of and the current status quo, that -10 gankers only have laughable consequences that are easily evaded. He has every right to discuss this in this forum section, as he makes a proposal for changes, even if you think that his opinion is wrong and that this thread should be "killed" - to use your own words. Wait -10s live in LS so that is why he mentioned suicide ganking? Most HS suicide gankers have very low sec status and they either live in NS or HS. A -10 living in LS is not a ganker. He is a pirate. A -10 player cannot move around as easily as a player with a higher sec status. Maybe he has every right to discuss it, but we have a right to rebut his statements...of course he is kind of a ***** whining about how people won't agree with him. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Sarah Flynt Flynt Enterprises Silent Infinity 287	Posted - 2017.04.26 07:02:20 - [61] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Wait -10s live in LS so that is why he mentioned suicide ganking? Most HS suicide gankers have very low sec status and they either live in NS or HS. A -10 living in LS is not a ganker. He is a pirate. A -10 player cannot move around as easily as a player with a higher sec status. You asked why he mentioned suicide ganking. There are other ways to become -10 than suicide ganking. But nvm ... Teckos Pech wrote: Maybe he has every right to discuss it, but we have a right to rebut his statements... Then DO SO. Go ahead and discuss his statements and don't just throw your usual ganker-copypasta into the thread without even looking what the thread is actually about. Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
DrButterfly PHD T.R.I.A.D Ushra'Khan 0	Posted - 2017.04.26 07:15:39 - [62] - Quote Bear in mind that any restrictions placed on people with low sec status affect a lot more people than criminals. People fighting for their faction in low sec, for example.
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6423	Posted - 2017.04.26 08:21:36 - [63] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Wait -10s live in LS so that is why he mentioned suicide ganking? Most HS suicide gankers have very low sec status and they either live in NS or HS. A -10 living in LS is not a ganker. He is a pirate. A -10 player cannot move around as easily as a player with a higher sec status. You asked why he mentioned suicide ganking. There are other ways to become -10 than suicide ganking. But nvm ... Teckos Pech wrote: Maybe he has every right to discuss it, but we have a right to rebut his statements... Then DO SO. Go ahead and discuss his statements and don't just throw your usual ganker-copypasta into the thread without even looking what the thread is actually about. He mentioned suicide ganking explicitly and it having low risk. Here is his first paragraph, Quote: It is really annoying how easy suicide ganking is and that it has basically no consequences. Its basically a zero risk activity, the worst that can happen is that you do your math wrong and don't bring enough alts to destroy your target or you will be unlucky and you don't get any worthy loot (if the purpose of the sucide gank is to make a profit). He is talking about criminals and suicide ganking. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Mike Voidstar Voidstar Free Flight Foundation 1193	Posted - 2017.04.26 17:06:37 - [64] - Quote They don't need more consequences. They need Consequences that matter to them. The core of the issue is that there is no way to punish bad behavior. They don't care about anything that can be done to them. None of that is to say that it is a problem that needs fixing. There are some issues that should be addressed, like using bumping as tackle without going suspect, but the overall activity of catching and killing things, even in high sec, isn't a problem- its a feature.
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6424	Posted - 2017.04.26 17:10:36 - [65] - Quote Sarah Flynt wrote: Teckos Pech wrote: Wait -10s live in LS so that is why he mentioned suicide ganking? Most HS suicide gankers have very low sec status and they either live in NS or HS. A -10 living in LS is not a ganker. He is a pirate. A -10 player cannot move around as easily as a player with a higher sec status. You asked why he mentioned suicide ganking. There are other ways to become -10 than suicide ganking. But nvm ... Teckos Pech wrote: Maybe he has every right to discuss it, but we have a right to rebut his statements... Then DO SO. Go ahead and discuss his statements and don't just throw your usual ganker-copypasta into the thread without even looking what the thread is actually about. I still don't see any problem here. Black Pedro covered it pretty well. 1. We want players to interact. 2. We want players to interact in all areas of the game, HS, LS, NS, and w-space. 3. Interaction can take any form, competitive, cooperative, both hostile and non-hostile. 4. This proposal seeks to restrict player interaction. 5. For what reason? *It is too "low risk" to gank freighters (learn to read).* 6. The "ease" of ganking freighter is not really "easy" (it takes a f'king fleet, a bumper, a scout, a loot scooper/hauler). 7. Freighter ganking is totally and solely the result of bad decision making on the part of the freighter pilot. 8. Freighter pilots making good decisions solves the OP's "issue". Nothing to see here, move along. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Serendipity Lost Repo Industries 2583	Posted - 2017.04.26 19:33:30 - [66] - Quote Carnivorous Swarm wrote: Ganking is easy with no consequences? I urge anyone who really believes that to try to pull off twenty pod ganks. I doubt they'd be able to succeed in half. Ganking requires logistics beyond standard high sec play: warp-ins, scan alts, and stocking of equipment. Ganks don't happen by chance, they're deliberate and focused. Ganking either requires luck or a lot of scouts because you are an easy target. Anti-gankers, KB whoring mercs, and randoms can and do shoot at you all the time. It only takes an Alpha ECM frigate to stop 1 to 3 gankers in destroyers. The ganker is effectively neutered from all other high sec play. The SP is stuck on that character. Yeah, you can buy tags, but then you'll still likely have a ton of killrights against you for the next month. The only other pilot in the entire game with the same level of restrictions is a pod-killing low sec pirate. The gankers that "make it look easy" are experts or FC'd by expects of the playstyle. It still takes considerable effort to succeed, much more than running missions or freighter hauling (all three which I've done extensively in my Eve career). Most importantly, it takes little effort to become an unattractive gank target. So little that I do not understand how a player can be in a universe filled with other people and either 1) not know ganking exists by the time they can pilot a freighter, or 2) are unwilling to do anything to protect their one billion+ ISK investment. Lol - It took me and my guys 1 day to master ganking mission runners. There is some logistics up front and kill rights are a thing, but let's be honest here - it's not difficult. Doing it for profit - that takes some understanding of math, drop rates and being able to pick good targets. Mission ganking profitability does take some brains, but blowing up the ships is way easty. If you're ganking low hanging CODE type fruit - it's even easier. You google ships/fits for ganking barges, acquire the stuff and go do it. There is no elite twitchery involved in getting around HS as a criminal. Let's not make this out to be more complex than it is.
Tessa Sage Legion of the Wicked Way Advent of Fate 1	Posted - 2017.04.28 10:57:44 - [67] - Quote Teckos Pech wrote: Look, suicide ganking is the fault of the pilot who is ganked. The large rewards are created by the terrible player who put way too much cargo value in his cargo hold. Yes. It is that simple. Stop overloading your freighter and you'll largely be fine. No. Really. Stop being bad and you'll be fine. Edit: Here was my thread on why the risk and rewards of suicide ganking are not something CCP should even be thinking about. I'll go nice and slow with small for the dim witted here.... 1. A player puts, say, 7 billion ISK worth of cargo into his charon. 2. To get it all in there he "anti-tanks" his charon by putting on cargo expanders. 3. He then undocks.... Don't be stupid and don't get ganked. Seven bill you say? https://zkillboard.com/kill/61803644/ popcorn
Artemis Ellery Sazas Shock and Awe Inc. 102	Posted - 2017.04.28 13:22:38 - [68] - Quote I have been a ganker off and on for several years, find it extremely easy, but super boring. Did it more for the lol's than profit, which is how ganking should be done. As we all know, most hauler ganking operations are extremely profitable, while miner ganks are more sponsored and much less profitable. - Eliminate all loot drops from a criminal activity, leaving the destroyed ship with nothing but a empty wreck. - Add 25% to Concord response time to encourage more solo ganking of miners etc... and help offset the recent barge ehp buff and the loss of loot. Gankers will still be able to do their business in high sec and they will still be able to teach high sec players the error of their ways by ganking them. To fund hauler ganks, players set up ganking contracts (much like PL does) and collect on the collateral instead of getting loot drops. It is also very easy to set up citadel scam contracts and removed docking rights once contract is accepted, again collacting on the collateral to fund ganking operations. Players will still be able to gank freighters that are hauling 6 Azbels at a time and have some good LOL's at the hauler. Let's face it, this is mainly a Goon issue and if Goons can't currently organize and fund their high sec gank operations without getting a loot drop, then it's no wonder they lost their prime null space to begin with.
Dom Arkaral The Conference Elite CODE. 1223	Posted - 2017.04.28 13:52:34 - [69] - Quote CCPlease one more nerf (tm) Adapt or die.. that's your job Not CCP's Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester. Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome CCL Loyalist
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6428	Posted - 2017.04.28 20:12:18 - [70] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: Carnivorous Swarm wrote: Ganking is easy with no consequences? I urge anyone who really believes that to try to pull off twenty pod ganks. I doubt they'd be able to succeed in half. Ganking requires logistics beyond standard high sec play: warp-ins, scan alts, and stocking of equipment. Ganks don't happen by chance, they're deliberate and focused. Ganking either requires luck or a lot of scouts because you are an easy target. Anti-gankers, KB whoring mercs, and randoms can and do shoot at you all the time. It only takes an Alpha ECM frigate to stop 1 to 3 gankers in destroyers. The ganker is effectively neutered from all other high sec play. The SP is stuck on that character. Yeah, you can buy tags, but then you'll still likely have a ton of killrights against you for the next month. The only other pilot in the entire game with the same level of restrictions is a pod-killing low sec pirate. The gankers that "make it look easy" are experts or FC'd by expects of the playstyle. It still takes considerable effort to succeed, much more than running missions or freighter hauling (all three which I've done extensively in my Eve career). Most importantly, it takes little effort to become an unattractive gank target. So little that I do not understand how a player can be in a universe filled with other people and either 1) not know ganking exists by the time they can pilot a freighter, or 2) are unwilling to do anything to protect their one billion+ ISK investment. Lol - It took me and my guys 1 day to master ganking mission runners. There is some logistics up front and kill rights are a thing, but let's be honest here - it's not difficult. Doing it for profit - that takes some understanding of math, drop rates and being able to pick good targets. Mission ganking profitability does take some brains, but blowing up the ships is way easty. If you're ganking low hanging CODE type fruit - it's even easier. You google ships/fits for ganking barges, acquire the stuff and go do it. There is no elite twitchery involved in getting around HS as a criminal. Let's not make this out to be more complex than it is. Complex has nothing to do with it. I be pole vaulting would not be easy for 99.99% of the people, but it is not really complex. Ganking is harder than being a dimbulb with your freighter. Ganking is a coordination problem, and such problems are less easy than situations were you do not have to coordinate multiple individuals. The solution is also easy, don't be a dimbulb and overload your freighter. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Tessa Sage Legion of the Wicked Way Advent of Fate 2	Posted - 2017.04.28 20:49:02 - [71] - Quote Artemis Ellery Sazas wrote: To fund hauler ganks, players set up ganking contracts (much like PL does) and collect on the collateral instead of getting loot drops. It is also very easy to set up citadel scam contracts and removed docking rights once contract is accepted, again collacting on the collateral to fund ganking operations. Players will still be able to gank freighters that are hauling 6 Azbels at a time and have some good LOL's at the hauler. I'm glad this was brought up. For haulers, the loss is twice manifold should gankers get a decent stab at the loot. If loot is arbitrary (let's say it goes to Concord impound) then people can bid on the spoils in the same toggle used to place bounties. Maximum shade I say!
Vokan Narkar New Eden Traders Aliance 21	Posted - 2017.04.30 10:39:25 - [72] - Quote I'm sorry I didn't notice that someone actually posted a constructive reply to my suggestions and noticed it just now when someone game me a like and I clicked on it. So a bit late but I am going to reply. Black Pedro wrote: Of course this is not true at all. Highsec criminals suffer pretty much all the consequences, and they are so harsh that basically no one but career criminals even think of shooting another player in highsec illegally. The 'outlaw' character can do nothing in highsec but move about in fast-aligning ships, loses any PvP engagement within seconds if you just get a point on them thanks to infallible NPCs, and is forced to pay a cost to even attempt to attack another player in the form of their ship. You are wrong. The penalties for suicide gank in highsec are really laughable. -0.2 security hit (same as in lowsec) and 15 minute "calm down" timer for which you need to stay in station are nothing but harsh. I am by no means suicide ganker, but I did it few times either to for nice killmail or to deal with spies. Obviously when I went to kill the spy in our system I didn't use my main character, but an alt but -0.2 is really nothing and if it provides nice killmail (think of leopard) I will do it with my main character. Yes sure killrights are a thing but - if they put too high killright like 100mil then unless you fly something in that value nobody is going to waste money for it. And if its too low then you can abuse alt and pay for it yourself and you lose nothing but noob ship. The penalties starting to be harsh when you do it repeatedly. That means 10 ganks till you notice anything (if you start doing it with 0.0sec) and then you will be hunted by faction police in 1.0. But, there are ways how to fix this. Clone Soldier tags, or just ratting for general. Currently suicide gankers do neither because they don't need to. The penalties aren't that harsh for them because they are alts who do not want to do anything in highsec other than ganking. Black Pedro wrote: Both ideas do very little to organized ganking operations and yet have serious downsides for newer/solo/inexperienced players. I do think the idea of pirate hideaways is conceptionally a badass one, but it would require more thought and changes than this. Fair point. Prevent docking might not be so good idea afterall... Black Pedro wrote: One of the design goals of Upwell structures was to provide 'feature parity' with the outgoing POSes. The tethering mechanic gives the same sort of in-space protection that the POS force field did. Criminals (and everyone else) have nothing new that they didn't have already with POSes in the tethering mechanic and I see no reason why certain players should lose intended functionality from the structures just because another player wants to shoot them. What is good for the goose is good for the gander and if haulers get to align safely next to an Upwell structure then so should those trying to shoot haulers. Anything else just smacks of asking the builders of the sandbox to tilt the game in your favour. This was already disproved. The tether and faction police immunity is a new thing that wasn't there before. Black Pedro wrote: More importantly, if criminals are using an Upwell structure to stage out of and you object, CCP has kindly given you a mechanism to impose your will on them: wardec and explode that structure. There is no problem here that you can't already fix yourself. Not really. The citadel doesn't belong to the ganking characters but their alts (or main characters). Thus wardeccing the citadel owner will result in a war with entities a new corp has no chance to beat. Meanwhile gankers will still operate there while you will attempt to siege owners completely ignoring you - they still get their tether and immunity to faction police. You know game of alts. Black Pedro wrote: So in short, -1. These ideas largely do nothing to open windows of player interaction (or are just plain unfair), and just pile more NPC enforced consequences on criminals that would impact disproportionately on players other than highsec ganking operations. I am all for a re-imagining of how highsec crime works to something that increases player agency and interaction, but more tedious "consequences" that give haulers even less reason to pay attention and hurt non-gankers in the process is not that. I'm stepping down from docking restriction. Its perhaps logical thing to do, but it would indeed very negatively affected newbies who perhaps attack someone's capsule because of dumb and get -5.0. For them, current penalties are enough already. But tell me how removing the citadel tether for characters -5.0 and less will be a problem?
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 3393	Posted - 2017.04.30 11:24:36 - [73] - Quote Vokan Narkar wrote: Yes sure killrights are a thing but - if they put too high killright like 100mil then unless you fly something in that value nobody is going to waste money for it. And if its too low then you can abuse alt and pay for it yourself and you lose nothing but noob ship. Killrights alone prevent almost anyone with sense from engaging in a criminal act in highsec if they have any intention to engage in income-generating activities. The 'consequence' of giving up your CONCORD protection, even to one person, or more likely everyone at a small cost, is incredibly harsh from a cost-to-benefit prospective. I will agree that if you live outside of highsec, or don't plan on mining, hauling, missioning or incursioning in highsec for the next 30 days it is less relevant. For outlaws, it already doesn't matter. A killright means nothing if you are -5 or below, nor does any additional 'consequence' that allows people to shoot you (like suggested in the OP) given you are already free-to-shoot. Vokan Narkar wrote: But tell me how removing the citadel tether for characters -5.0 and less will be a problem? Well, you could equally argue that -5 characters should not be allowed to sit inside POS force fields. You can argue for more penalties, but it isn't especially fair nor consistent. If a player wants to risk and deploy a citadel that can be used by criminals to tether, then why shouldn't they? It is their station and if you object, you can try to explode it or tell the owner to stop extending tethering rights to them. That is actually player interaction and sort of along the lines of the pirate hideaway idea. If you just make tethering useless for criminals (would this apply in lowsec? nullsec?) then they will just not use them and base out of NPC stations, or safespots and ship hangers or instawarps like they have in the past. Despite the naive belief of some, criminals are not going to sit outside a citadel and let you shoot them like fish in a barrel, and even of they wanted to let you shoot them the faction police would do it before you likely got there. They will just use the next most efficient way to operate, one that can't be wardecced and exploded by other players. POSes always protected criminals from other players outside the force field. True, not some NPCs, but I'll bet that was not a conscious design intention but rather just a side-effect of the spaghetti POS code and this problem caused by the idiosyncrasies of the force field mechanic which was part of the impetus to remove the whole system. I mean, how does it makes any consistent sense that the lasers from the faction police can passthrough a force field, but not those of a player flying the same ship? If I am wrong though then CCP really should do as you say and keep things consistent and remove tethering for -5 and below, or perhaps to more accurately reflect the previous situation, remove tethering protection against the faction police (just like the current situation where the tether doesn't protect you from CONCORD). But I get the sense that this is how they want things to work and is part of their philosophy of general mechanics being consistent across all spaces. If you want to make the criminals vulnerable you need to give them something useful to them in space and better yet, the ability to defend it. An Upwell structure with tethering does that, and if you remove the faction police, they could even deploy it themselves and defend it, but even without that they are still deploying them with alts now and nothing is stopping you from shooting them. If you just make in-space infrastructure useless to criminals or impossible to defend, they will just carry on using the time-tested NPC options. I honestly don't care which way CCP goes. Whether criminals are kept as muggers in alleys who can't give a proper fight or are given more tools to be more like drug kingpins with infrastructure you can attack but who also can defend it, both are viable archetypes of criminals. I think the latter would generate more content and interaction in highsec, but I fully recognize it would put highsec residents at greater risk not to mention require a lot a game design effort to get balanced right. Part of me hopes that some CrimeWatch revamp will be part of this winter's 'Empire' expansion, but the logical part of me know that it is probably just going to feature some new, smarter PvE that highsec residents say they want but will then promptly ignore and keep running the same old missions because they are not as easy as the content they have run a thousand times. Ah well, good thing I am pretty happy with the status quo. The 8 Golden Rules of Eve Why Do They Gank?
Teckos Pech Amok. Goonswarm Federation 6439	Posted - 2017.04.30 19:42:10 - [74] - Quote Black Pedro wrote: Vokan Narkar wrote: Yes sure killrights are a thing but - if they put too high killright like 100mil then unless you fly something in that value nobody is going to waste money for it. And if its too low then you can abuse alt and pay for it yourself and you lose nothing but noob ship. Killrights alone prevent almost anyone with sense from engaging in a criminal act in highsec if they have any intention to engage in income-generating activities. The 'consequence' of giving up your CONCORD protection, even to one person, or more likely everyone at a small cost, is incredibly harsh from a cost-to-benefit prospective. I will agree that if you live outside of highsec, or don't plan on mining, hauling, missioning or incursioning in highsec for the next 30 days it is less relevant. For outlaws, it already doesn't matter. A killright means nothing if you are -5 or below, nor does any additional 'consequence' that allows people to shoot you given you are already free-to-shoot. Agreed. People need to not only look at the actual consequences (sec status hit, 15 minute timer, killrights, etc.) but also the opportunity costs. Kill rights make it harder to do certain things in HS. And once your sec status is low enough that is even more true. These people are cutting themselves off in many ways from HS. Yes there are ways to get around it...but at a cost. That some players find this cost acceptable does not mean anything is broken or needs fixing IMO. "The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek 8 Golden Rules for EVE Online


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